Photo slabbing/authentication

[Exhibitman]

If your opinion is that all slabbing/third party authenticating sucks, this is not the thread for you. If you are not an anti-slabbing reactionary, read on.

1. I noticed in the Henry Yee auction that quite a few photos are in PSA slabs and quite a few others are loose but have PSA LOAs accompanying them. I understand why it is not possible to encapsulate an oversized item, but if the item fits in the slab is there a marketing reason to opt for an LOA rather than encapsulation?

2. Does the PSA service add value to photos on resale?

3. Is there any service other than PSA that will slab photos?

4. Anyone with experience submitting photos to PSA have any stories to share?

5. Assuming I wanted to send in photos to PSA for slabbing, does that mean I either have to join their club or send them in through an authorized dealer?

6. Does PSA slab undersized photos? If I have a 5 x 7, for example, would PSA slab it in an 8 x 10 slab with one of their infamous plastic wraps on it?

7. Anyone ever use BVG for encapsulating photos? How did that work out?

8. I have several photos that were encapsulated by CGC. All came from the same seller, J Parrino, and all were images from the Culver Archive. I really liked the product: it was flexible but about twice as thick as a card saver and could be stored in an oversized notebook because it had a three-hole notebook prepunch on the left margin [not shown below]. Anyone know the story on these? Here is an example:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Durocher_1.jpg

[Lordstan]

Adam,
I am not an anti slabbing reactionary. I'm not a fan of the job the TPAs do with autographs, but only minor issues with the job done with photos.

To answer your questions:

1. I noticed in the Henry Yee auction that quite a few photos are in PSA slabs and quite a few others are loose but have PSA LOAs accompanying them. I understand why it is not possible to encapsulate an oversized item, but if the item fits in the slab is there a marketing reason to opt for an LOA rather than encapsulation?
I don't think either matters. Some people like the slabs some don't. I think the selling price will likely be dependent on the picture itself. I don't care for the slabs myself. I like to handle the photos when I want. BUT... being slabbed doesn't stop me from bidding aggressively on a photo I really want.

2. Does the PSA service add value to photos on resale?
Does PSA make the picture intrinsically more valuable? NO. Does it make the photos sell for more? Probably yes and no. On PSA and JSA's website, the first reason to use their service is increased value, so the increase in value is what they see as their main selling point. I'm sure those who have all their pictures certed will say that value is either preserved and/or increases. I don't think that is always the case. A "great picture" will sell for a lot of money regardless. For me, I get pics as I find them with or without certs. My bid/offer for a specific picture will not change just because it has a cert. I have never sent something in to be certed, so I don't know the process.

3. Is there any service other than PSA that will slab photos?
Beckett will. See Ben's other thread about some of the incorrect labeling. As you note later, CGC slabs photos, but I don't really know anything about their service, standards, or criteria for what is "vintage".


8. I have several photos that were encapsulated by CGC. All came from the same seller, J Parrino, and all were images from the Culver Archive. I really liked the product: it was flexible but about twice as thick as a card saver and could be stored in an oversized notebook because it had a three-hole notebook prepunch on the left margin [not shown below]. Anyone know the story on these?
I've had some of these, but never saw any hole punches. The three holes would seem to be pretty handy for binder storage.

[Augy44]

PSA will not encapsulate photos that are smaller than approximately 7" x 9" or larger than 8" x 10". This is the reason why you see loose photos with a LOA accompanying it without the encapsulation, is because they are either too large or too small to fit their holders. The reason PSA gives as to why they will not encapsulate a smaller photo is because they claim that customers have complained of smaller photos being damaged (corner and edge damage) during the shipment process due to their ability to move throughout the holder. I'm still dumbfounded as to why they don't either have different sizes of holders or somehow perforate within the holder to keep the smaller photos in place, but there must be an explanation of the reason why they haven't. Hopes this helps!

[Runscott]

I have not seen that CGC slabs add value, but I generally do not remove any photos from their slabs.

I am uncertain about PSA slabs - the prices I have paid for good photos either in PSA slabs, or not, do not seem to reflect any added value. I have only bought a few and I have never sold any of them.

(As an aside, I believe that by definition, there are zero anti-slab reactionaries on this board, but I completely understand the message you were attempting to convey).

[Exhibitman]

(As an aside, I believe that by definition, there are zero anti-slab reactionaries on this board, but I completely understand the message you were attempting to convey).

Just didn't want an honest series of questions to degenerate into a "slabbing sucks, okay?" thread.

Two more questions

9. As I have not physically handled them: do the PSA and Beckett slabs provide better protection for photos than say an album page with an acid-free comic book or magazine board behind the picture? That is how I store mine now but for certain photos I'd be willing to go with a holder instead.

10. Is there a preference among collectors for numerical grade or "A" only on photos?

[D. Broughman]

Here is my Ty Cobb CGC photo. Yours has fine and mine has very fine with a corner missing. Does the grade have to do more with the quality of the photo image then the condition of the photo itself?

[Lordstan]

9. As I have not physically handled them: do the PSA and Beckett slabs provide better protection for photos than say an album page with an acid-free comic book or magazine board behind the picture? That is how I store mine now but for certain photos I'd be willing to go with a holder instead.

PSA holders have a plastic front and back that are similar to a large photo holder front and back, but more tight onto the photo. They are very thin, but feel fairly sturdy. The Beckett ones are bricks. They are approx a half inch thick with the photo inside an inner plastic sleeve. They are very sturdy. It took me about 15 min each to get some photos out of them. I took the pics out because they were too big and a real PITA to store. If your main goal is security, these can't be beat. Also, they do slab smaller size photos. I don't know if either use mylar in their holders, but I would think that would be the safest.


10. Is there a preference among collectors for numerical grade or "A" only on photos?

As far as I know, only Beckett grades photos in their slabs. To this point, I don't think there is any extra value associated with a numerically graded photo. That being said, do I think the TPAs will eventually try to create the same type of registry fervor for the "highest graded copy extant" of photos? Yes. If they can figure out a way to get everyone to pay to have their already slabbed photos reslabbed with a grade they will.
For myself, I couldn't care less if a grade is on the slab or not. As they say on the card side, I buy the photo not the slab.

[baseballart]

Here is my Ty Cobb CGC photo. Yours has fine and mine has very fine with a corner missing. Does the grade have to do more with the quality of the photo image then the condition of the photo itself?

Dynarl

What is the size of that photo? With the writing at the bottom, it looks like a page from a book. I don't have access to my book collection for a few days, but it looks very much on the front like a page from a book. I'm guessing, but if I recall correctly, it's from Charnley's Secrets of Baseball told by Big League Players, Appleton, 1927.

Max

[D. Broughman]

Dynarl

What is the size of that photo? With the writing at the bottom, it looks like a page from a book. I don't have access to my book collection for a few days, but it looks very much on the front like a page from a book. I'm guessing, but if I recall correctly, it's from Charnley's Secrets of Baseball told by Big League Players, Appleton, 1927.

Max

Max it's 7"by4 3/4" I thought the same about it looking like a book page and being graded as a photo. Sy Seidman is the photographer on the back.

[Runscott]

9. As I have not physically handled them: do the PSA and Beckett slabs provide better protection for photos than say an album page with an acid-free comic book or magazine board behind the picture? That is how I store mine now but for certain photos I'd be willing to go with a holder instead.

To me, the PSA holders appear to provide better protection than the 'album page/comic book board' set up you describe. For that reason, I leave most of my slabbed photos in their slabs, unless they are going to be framed. All but a few of my photos are non-slabbed and currently residing in top-loaders.

Any day I will be making a trip to the art store to buy mylar sleeves, and plan to put the sleeved photos back into the top-loaders. I like the idea of using comic book boards, except that I can't see the backs of the photos.

[steve B]

One caution on the mylar in a toploader.

I did that for a few cards. When I went to send a few in for grading it was a huge fight to get the card out. The Mylar essentially is so smooth that it seals to itself, and over time to the inside of the toploader. I'm pretty sure I creased one getting it out, and since then have cut the few others out of the toploader.

No damage from the Mylar, it's essentially inert.

So Mylar in a toploader will be good for preservation, as long as removing it won't be a regular event.

I have the few photos I have in comic or magazine bags and backing boards.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Thanks for that information, Steve. I picked up an assortment of mylar sleeves today, but hadn't started the 'plan' yet.

[thecatspajamas]

1. I noticed in the Henry Yee auction that quite a few photos are in PSA slabs and quite a few others are loose but have PSA LOAs accompanying them. I understand why it is not possible to encapsulate an oversized item, but if the item fits in the slab is there a marketing reason to opt for an LOA rather than encapsulation? There's the whole protection angle, in that if the photo is slabbed, you don't have to worry about what kind of sleeve, toploader, etc arrangement to use to protect them. Beyond that, I would say the option to have a photo slabbed is almost purely a marketing decision in that PSA's slabs are instantly reconizable in the collecting community. See next answer for more on that.

2. Does the PSA service add value to photos on resale? Yes and no. To an experienced photo collector who knows what they are looking at, in most cases they will not pay more just because someone else puts a label on it telling them what they already know. There are however more and more collectors adding photos to their collections who really have no idea what they are doing and rely on PSA or knowledgable sellers for the most basic information about the photo. So in an auction situation, having someing authenticated by PSA can add value in that it adds another group of potential buyers to the mix. So I guess my answer on this one would be that it shouldn't, but in an auction scenario, often it does.

7. Anyone ever use BVG for encapsulating photos? How did that work out? Saw this one yesterday: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1919-TYPE-I-PHOTO-ORIG-TICKET-JACK-DEMPSEY-WILLARD-FIGHT-WOW-MUST-SEE-/390509920595?pt=US_Solo_Sports_Fan_Shop&hash=item5aec348153&nma=true&si=opSNlwQv1uHvus17gLeFqavr%252BRY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Has a UPI stamp on the back, couldn't have been issued in 1919, and to my eye clearly lacks the contrast and clarity you would expect from a photo printed from the original negative, which was what made me look at the photo of the back in the first place. That's just one example, but given others that have been pointed out in another recent thread, and other drawbacks that I see with BVG's "packaging," I would give some serious thought to what benefit you would actually see from having BVG encapsulate your photos.

8. I have several photos that were encapsulated by CGC. All came from the same seller, J Parrino, and all were images from the Culver Archive. I really liked the product: it was flexible but about twice as thick as a card saver and could be stored in an oversized notebook because it had a three-hole notebook prepunch on the left margin [not shown below]. Anyone know the story on these? CGC typically handles comic books. In the last few years they finally expanded to comic-related magazines, and more recently (maybe 2 years ago?) added Playboy and Sports Illustrated to the list of magazines they would grade. To my knowledge they have never accepted submissions from the public for photo authenticating, grading or slabbing. From what I understand, Parrino worked some kind of deal with them for his photo slabbing since he had such a large quantity to be done. I have no idea what criteria their "grading" is based on, but I would suspect that any/all info on the flip was provided to them rather than based on authentication performed in-house. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but as you say, I have only ever seen one source of photos slabbed by CGC.

9. As I have not physically handled them: do the PSA and Beckett slabs provide better protection for photos than say an album page with an acid-free comic book or magazine board behind the picture? That is how I store mine now but for certain photos I'd be willing to go with a holder instead. PSA slabs offer essentially the same protection as a toploader with the top sealed off, in terms of thickness. Comic/Magazine bags and boards work fine as well, though they do not offer quite as much protection as a toploader would (you could still drop the photo on its corner and the backing board would crumple allowing the photo to be damaged, which wouldn't happen with a toploader). Bagged/boarded photos do take up slightly less space and weigh less than toploaders, but you also can't see the back of the photo that way. Beckett slabs are just unwieldy in my opinion. Maybe they offer a little more protection, but good grief, even a dozen photos slabbed in those things take up a horrible amount of space. I can't even imagine having a sizeable collection housed in them. In most DIY storage situations, your biggest risk for damaging the photo will be when you insert it into whatever holder you choose. Personally, for anything larger than 5x7, I use bags/boards and store upright in magazine boxes, but then again that's primarily for inventory for easy sorting, economy of space, and expense of materials. The few photos I hang onto typically go into toploaders and/or album pages, depending on the value of the photo and how often I want to see it.

10. Is there a preference among collectors for numerical grade or "A" only on photos? I have never met a photo collector who cared about a numerical "grade" on a photo unless they were a recent crossover from card collecting with no prior photo collecting experience.

All of the above are just my opinions/experiences, and others are welcome to disagree or advise otherwise.

[thecatspajamas]

Scott, you'll also want to be very careful when loading anything "smooth" (as in, the surface of most photos) into mylar sleeves, as the (I guess static?) friction does not lend itself to easily sliding such things in and out of the sleeves. If you can pucker the sleeve enough to slide it in with only the back touching, you may be okay. If it's a tighter fit though, you might want to use something like a comic backing board to help with loading and then slide it back out once the photo is in place.

I've never tried the mylar in a toploader, so I can't speak to the long-term situation there, but I have done photo in a polypropylene comic bag in a toplader which seemed to work well as far as ease of loading (and unloading, as I just left the flap dangling out the top like a pull-tab, though I guess you could also tuck it inside or trim it off). Probably not the most attractive long-term solution though, as the polypro bags tend to wrinkle over time.

[Runscott]

Scott, you'll also want to be very careful when loading anything "smooth" (as in, the surface of most photos) into mylar sleeves, as the (I guess static?) friction does not lend itself to easily sliding such things in and out of the sleeves. If you can pucker the sleeve enough to slide it in with only the back touching, you may be okay. If it's a tighter fit though, you might want to use something like a comic backing board to help with loading and then slide it back out once the photo is in place.

I've never tried the mylar in a toploader, so I can't speak to the long-term situation there, but I have done photo in a polypropylene comic bag in a toplader which seemed to work well as far as ease of loading (and unloading, as I just left the flap dangling out the top like a pull-tab, though I guess you could also tuck it inside or trim it off). Probably not the most attractive long-term solution though, as the polypro bags tend to wrinkle over time.

Thanks, Lance. I bought my sleeves yesterday, but haven't started transferring them. Thinking that, since I'm about to put most of my photos up for sale, I'll probably just leave them as-is in top-loaders, then move my 'keepers' to mylar.

It was good to get the warning about the sleeves sticking to the top-loaders - that would be a bummer.

[steve B]

Thanks, Lance. I bought my sleeves yesterday, but haven't started transferring them. Thinking that, since I'm about to put most of my photos up for sale, I'll probably just leave them as-is in top-loaders, then move my 'keepers' to mylar.

It was good to get the warning about the sleeves sticking to the top-loaders - that would be a bummer.



Just to be clear, the sticking isn't the normal sort of sticking you get with most stuff.

In machining there are gage blocks that come in sets - usually a wide range of thicknesses. They're polished very smooth, and very flat. To use them in stacks you wring them together. More of a sliding than anything else. Since they're so smooth and flat, once together there's no air between them. So the 15 psi ambient air pressure keeps them quite well "stuck" together. You have to slide them apart. Since they're only about a half inch by an inch, it's maybe 7 lbs pushing them together, and they slide apart pretty well. They're also steel, so no concerns about creasing them. (Dropping one from an NIST traceable set though.....Not good at all.)
The card holders are a bit under 12 square inches, and even if it's just the middle it's probably around four. So anywhere from 60- 180 lbs holding the three items together. That can be broken by inserting tweezers between the layers, or by cutting the edges off and sliding the layers a bit.

It does hold the card very securely. It's just a nuisance to remove.

Steve B