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View Full Version : Helping a good lady....Red Sox sweater info...


Leon
09-11-2013, 03:40 PM
So I got a registration from a lady that has a sweater she bought at an estate sale. She is registered but asked for a little help in posting some pictures so here we go. I personally know very little about sweaters but this one looks really nice...

Leon
09-11-2013, 03:40 PM
I posted this on the front page too but some folks might not venture over there.....any and all help on what this is will be appreciated..

perezfan
09-11-2013, 03:53 PM
Estate Sale.... WOW.

Wish I could get that lucky. This appears to be the real deal from the early 1900s, and is worth whatever the market dictates (keeping in mind that the sky's the limit). On the very rare occasion that these surface, they're typically plagued with moth holes, snags, color bleeding, fading, missing buttons, repairs, etc. This one looks incredibly pristine.

A Holy Grail item for Red Sox and/or early Equipment collectors... Many congrats to her on this incredibly stunning rare and find!

Bosox Blair
09-11-2013, 03:53 PM
This might help, though the Legendary sweater has Wright & Ditson tags, rather than Spalding (of course, the companies were related from the mid-1890s on):

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=76970

Cheers,
Blair

GrayGhost
09-11-2013, 03:58 PM
OMG. if thats real. its AMAZING:eek::)

BigJJ
09-11-2013, 04:15 PM
1920s Wright and Ditson Red Sox Sweater

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/29343/Spring-2006-Catalog/Sports/Boston-Braves-and-Red-Sox/Lot598~Fantastic-1920and-39%3bs-Boston-Red-Sox-Sweater

While similar, not the same exact year/style. wish I could see in person, color of this one appears brighter, and more red, than the other two, which is interesting.

BigJJ
09-11-2013, 04:20 PM
Grand Opening of Yankee Stadium, April 18, 1923

http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/VV9345/howard-ehmke-with-bob-shawkey?popup=1

Pitcher Howard Ehmke in a sweater

David Atkatz
09-11-2013, 04:26 PM
Not real. Doesn't have the detail of the originals, nor the "stiffness"--seems to be made from a much lighter yarn. And not a bit of aging either.

khkco4bls
09-11-2013, 04:32 PM
Dave it doesn't mean there wasn't a different shade. But looking at the tagging I might say real. Lets see what the experts say.

David Atkatz
09-11-2013, 04:34 PM
I don't care about the shade. It doesn't have the detail. It's not as "substantial." It's a modern copy.
Anyone can get a vintage Spalding label from, say, an old glove.

David Atkatz
09-11-2013, 04:43 PM
Look at the tapering in the body on the original.

BigJJ
09-11-2013, 04:56 PM
Would want to see in person, but the sweaters I have handled, and I just had an incredible one from 1928, have appeared more stiff, tight, and with more weight. maybe it has this in person. but by photo I agree it looks a little loose and light. they may have made retail ones too back then. Curious as to the years of the tags, whether they properly correspond to the years the style was in use, I do not know the year tags off-hand.

perezfan
09-11-2013, 05:10 PM
Well, it would indeed help to see/feel it in person. Here it is in a recently terminated ebay auction...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1930S-1940S-VERY-RARE-SPALDING-WOOL-RED-SOX-AUTHENTIC-BASEBALL-SWEATER-/321205339423?hash=item4ac954851f&nma=true&si=5Bu88UNVes1Qw8ndYNUdl8g%252BaLA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_277wt_1178

Ebay auction was ended early, due to an error in the listing. I wonder if the "would be" Seller is the same woman as reached out to Leon? Perhaps she was tipped off as to the value (if authentic).

johnmh71
09-11-2013, 06:07 PM
Well, it would indeed help to see/feel it in person. Here it is in a recently terminated ebay auction...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1930S-1940S-VERY-RARE-SPALDING-WOOL-RED-SOX-AUTHENTIC-BASEBALL-SWEATER-/321205339423?hash=item4ac954851f&nma=true&si=5Bu88UNVes1Qw8ndYNUdl8g%252BaLA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_277wt_1178

Ebay auction was ended early, due to an error in the listing. I wonder if the "would be" Seller is the same woman as reached out to Leon? Perhaps she was tipped off as to the value (if authentic).

Same sweater IMO.

yanks12025
09-11-2013, 06:24 PM
Same sweater IMO.

I'm pretty sure we all knew it was the same sweater.

BigJJ
09-11-2013, 07:10 PM
I'm cracking up.

BigJJ
09-11-2013, 07:12 PM
Great ebay find. The ebay listing is interesting in that it identifies the sweater as 1930s-1940s. Now it takes some research to come up with that I would think. If good, I do think it is likely to post date the others from the early/mid twenties. We need dates on those tags!

Leon
09-11-2013, 08:01 PM
I was out of pocket for a while. Yes, that is the sweater in the ebay auction. She took it down when she got some really high offers so she could find out about it. I already told her it will need to be authenticated. Sweaters aren't my thing but I bet I can help her find someone to authenticate it. :) More to come I am sure....and I do hope it's real for her sake, but if not, then so be it.

perezfan
09-11-2013, 08:21 PM
Great ebay find. The ebay listing is interesting in that it identifies the sweater as 1930s-1940s. Now it takes some research to come up with that I would think. If good, I do think it is likely to post date the others from the early/mid twenties. We need dates on those tags!

If authentic, it's definitely older than '30s - '40s. I personally think the quality is too good to be a repro. It would be very difficult to reproduce that, IMO. If it were properly stored (perhaps in a Cedar Chest) for all those years, it would explain the softer look and lack of stiffness. The sweater actually looks very thick and professional quality to me... but it's tough to tell from one dimensional pics.

I'm eager to hear what the Authenticator says. Perhaps it's mid-late 1920s, and just a slightly newer variant than those pictured above. That might also explain the Spalding Tagging vs. Wright & Ditson.

yanks12025
09-11-2013, 08:24 PM
To me it's looks way to new.. Say it is from the 1920's, it's 90 years old and doesn't show any age what so ever. The other 2 that sold in auction at least showed age.

perezfan
09-11-2013, 08:45 PM
We tend to be a cynical group... perhaps all of the fraud, greed, and criminals in the hobby have made us this way. Understood...

But just to play Devil's Advocate....

If this was a repro, wouldn't others have turned up?
The time and expense (and skill) involved to recreate this piece would be tremendous
If it was made for fraudulent purposes, wouldn't the crooks artificially age it (just to make it look older/authentic?)
Why would they leave it so pristine, if intending to deceive? Most reproductions are never sold/auctioned without creating the illusion of age.
The woman who approached Leon seems sincere. Why would she go through the charade of an ebay auction, just to cancel it later?
Why would she terminate the auction, to get it authenticated (if she knew it was fake?)
She says she acquired it in an estate sale. If the original seller was the fraudulent one, why would they sell it in that venue?

They aren't exactly going to maximize their investment, selling it to some unknowing lady at an estate sale!

Just some food for thought... Eager to hear others' views as well ;)

Bugsy
09-11-2013, 08:50 PM
If authentic, it's definitely older than '30s - '40s. I personally think the quality is too good to be a repro. It would be very difficult to reproduce that, IMO. If it were properly stored (perhaps in a Cedar Chest) for all those years, it would explain the softer look and lack of stiffness. The sweater actually looks very thick and professional quality to me... but it's tough to tell from one dimensional pics.

I'm eager to hear what the Authenticator says. Perhaps it's mid-late 1920s, and just a slightly newer variant than those pictured above. That might also explain the Spalding Tagging vs. Wright & Ditson.

I agree

ksfarmboy
09-11-2013, 09:05 PM
I know they did produce repros of the Red Sox sweaters from this era. They quit making them several years back and they actually looked quite nice. Not saying this one isn't real but just to say they did make a replica. I think Mitchell and Ness made them.

khkco4bls
09-11-2013, 09:22 PM
Obviously same sweater. Damn I'm now starting to get disgusted with repro sweaters, baseballs etc. Only going to get worse.

deebro041
09-11-2013, 09:30 PM
Here's some Spalding tags:http://www.antiquesportscollector.com/TagsMain.html

Giants00
09-11-2013, 09:41 PM
While I cannot opine on this sweater, I own a 1914-1916 Harry Hooper sweater with name in the collar and provenance from the family. I of course could have a bad sweater, but the one I have is from a local label and not Spaulding or Wright & Ditson.

Leon
09-11-2013, 09:51 PM
Guys, I spoke to this person on the phone for 30'ish minutes. There is no issue in my mind with her getting it at an estate sale. That being said I am sure it will be authenticated, or not, soon.

BigJJ
09-11-2013, 10:26 PM
I don't think anyone is attributing mal-action or mal-intent to the lady. just a question of whether she happened to purchase a period professional piece. And IF a repro, there is no indication that whoever created it, had bad intentions either.
I see an equal chance of it being period and professional versus not, not having it in-hand.

baseballart
09-11-2013, 11:20 PM
I can't offer any opinions on the Red Sox sweater, but I have a 1927 sweater from Andy Aitkenhead's estate that "looks too new"

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/30/90038692_8ed0fe55dd.jpg

David Atkatz
09-12-2013, 01:01 AM
No, Max. Actually your sweater doesn't look "too new." It looks old.

slidekellyslide
09-12-2013, 08:06 AM
A sweater I used to own...definitely 1930s as the CCC stands for Civilian Conservation Corps. Belonged to a player named Lefty Stimac who was a Cardinals minor leaguer....I wish I had kept better photos of it, but this is all I have.

<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/user/nudan92/media/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold/stimec003smalluo8.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/xItems%20that%20have%20been%20sold/stimec003smalluo8.jpg" border="0" alt="1930s Civilian Conservation Corps Baseball Club Sweater photo stimec003smalluo8.jpg"/></a>

murphusa
09-12-2013, 10:56 AM
All of Mitchell and Ness Jerseys and Sweaters were made with less buttons than the originals.

Everything pictured here has 8 buttons which was the standard for the period. I don't remember a Red Sox Sweater coming for M&N in this style.

I would direct her to REA as they would give her a nice advance on the future auction winnings

Bugsy
09-12-2013, 11:54 AM
This definitely isn't a M&N or Ebbets Field Flannel sweater. All of those repros were made by the same person, in two different styles (they also made one without the shawl collar). Neither close to the Red Sox one in this thread.

Even if this matched a M&N style, it wouldn't have been much of swindle. They originally retailed for $700.

Leon
09-12-2013, 06:43 PM
The sweater was sold privately for a low five figures. I couldn't be happier for the lady. She really does seem nice....had a lot of facts, and made the decision she felt best with. Thanks to all who voiced their opinions. BTW, I told her all along I would help as much or as little as she wanted. I think the board helped quite a bit. thanks again all...

BigJJ
09-12-2013, 08:03 PM
Great

perezfan
09-12-2013, 08:35 PM
The sweater was sold privately for a low five figures. I couldn't be happier for the lady. She really does seem nice....had a lot of facts, and made the decision she felt best with. Thanks to all who voiced their opinions. BTW, I told her all along I would help as much or as little as she wanted. I think the board helped quite a bit. thanks again all...

Leon...

Did she indicate whether it was sold to a collector, or to someone who intended to re-sell/consign? Just curious if it will be making another appearance.... thanks!

ruth-gehrig
09-12-2013, 08:47 PM
Leon...

Did she indicate whether it was sold to a collector, or to someone who intended to re-sell/consign? Just curious if it will be making another appearance.... thanks!

+1

Leon
09-13-2013, 02:03 AM
+1

She didn't say if it it was to a person that would resell it or not. By the name she gave me, it wouldn't surprise me. (though it's not one I am familiar with). And she did say she sold it with no guarantee, and someone else had said they thought it was maybe circa 1907, by the tagging in it.

yanks12025
09-13-2013, 05:14 AM
Well based on the link someone posted of the tagging it is definitely not around 1907. Matches the tag of 1914 to late 1920's.

peterose4hof
09-13-2013, 09:51 AM
Gorgeous sweater! Would love to see it listed in an AH for two reasons.

1. To see how much it would sell for on the open market.

2. To see a full write-up with provenance of authenticity.

bmarlowe1
09-13-2013, 09:09 PM
She didn't say if it it was to a person that would resell it or not. By the name she gave me, it wouldn't surprise me. (though it's not one I am familiar with). And she did say she sold it with no guarantee, and someone else had said they thought it was maybe circa 1907, by the tagging in it.

I don't think the "Red Sox" name existed until the 1908 season - just sayin'

Leon
09-13-2013, 09:16 PM
I don't think the "Red Sox" name existed until the 1908 season - just sayin'

They did say "circa"...but it's all sort of moot now since she sold it. Maybe it will resurface with some kind of authentication?

ctownboy
09-14-2013, 01:12 AM
I am only half joking when I say this:

Seeing as how things are today, not only will this sweater come to an auction house and be deemed authentic. Because the tagging is circa 1914 to the late 1920's, the sweater will miraculously, through meticulous research, be found to be none other than Babe Ruth's!!!! Not only that but it will be the first sweater he wore during his rookie season!!!

So, when this rare beauty comes to auction, not only will it be the star attraction it will have it's own separate mini catalog describing the research and provenance that went into ascertaining that this is the Babe's very own sweater. Also, there will be multiple full page color photographs to let you see the intricate details and fine craftsmanship of this one of a kind, museum quality piece of baseball history........

David

RCMcKenzie
09-14-2013, 01:21 AM
I know nothing about sweaters. Her initial description of 30-40's fan apparel sounded plausible to me.

David Atkatz
09-14-2013, 01:57 PM
I am only half joking when I say this:

Seeing as how things are today, not only will this sweater come to an auction house and be deemed authentic. Because the tagging is circa 1914 to the late 1920's, the sweater will miraculously, through meticulous research, be found to be none other than Babe Ruth's!!!! Not only that but it will be the first sweater he wore during his rookie season!!!

So, when this rare beauty comes to auction, not only will it be the star attraction it will have it's own separate mini catalog describing the research and provenance that went into ascertaining that this is the Babe's very own sweater. Also, there will be multiple full page color photographs to let you see the intricate details and fine craftsmanship of this one of a kind, museum quality piece of baseball history........

DavidOnly problem is, compared with real examples, there are neither "intricate details," nor "fine craftsmanship."

ctownboy
09-14-2013, 02:03 PM
Mr. Atkatz,

Has trivial things like that stopped an auction house from such a description before?

David

David Atkatz
09-14-2013, 02:10 PM
David, you're absolutely right!

frankbmd
09-15-2013, 09:11 PM
It should be possible to match DNA from the sweater to DNA from one of Ruth's "authentic" balls.:eek:

yanks12025
01-20-2014, 02:31 PM
Looks like it's in the next heritage auction.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7100&lotIdNo=17002

packs
01-20-2014, 03:29 PM
Traced all the way back to opening day at Yankee Stadium in 1923. Perhaps there was a note in the pocket with directions to the stadium.

jbsports33
01-20-2014, 08:32 PM
Interesting find, but I would question the buttons as well - but can see why there was interest due to the label (1920s), you would have to really look at this in person - but if all checks out, this would be a great item!

It's just one of those items that needs to be checked by the next owner, you take a chance in this hobby and I am sure more info can be found out about it when it's in the right hands.

Jimmy

Runscott
01-23-2014, 12:24 PM
I think that looking at the tag/letter/button stitching and mothing on the 'RED SOX' letters, under high magnification, would give you your answer as to whether or not this is the real deal.

Sewing on authentic era buttons would be no big deal, and matching them with authentic Red Sox sweaters wouldn't tell you much, since at least two other companies appear to have made sweaters for the Red Sox. The thread that attaches the buttons would tell you more.

prewarsports
01-23-2014, 12:54 PM
I owned Dick Hoblitzells 1910 era Reds sweater and all the buttoms were different as they would rip off and then he (or his wife) would find random buttons and sew them on. In my case the sweater had TONS of wear and use so it made sense that the buttons would be replacements, and this sweater looks like it was never used.