Nobody cares about ebay shill bidding but

[Peter_Spaeth]

First the bid history

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=380705786534

Then the bidder



Bid History: Details



Bidding Details


Bidder Information
Bidder: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1965 Topps #350 Mickey Mantle HOF New York Yankees PSA 8 NM-MT CENTERED
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 34
Items bid on: 12
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 79% Help
Bid retractions: 5
Bid retractions (6 months): 23


But I am sure Rick will clean it all up.

[smtjoy]

LOL also looks to have been bid up to $995 by another "real" bidder-

s***o ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 22
Items bid on: 7
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

[D.P.Johnson]

Forward this information to the winning bidder...

[arexcrooke]

In no way is shill bidding acceptable or should be condoned.
I just wonder how Rick is supposed to:
a-know about everyone that happens
b-stop it
when
c-he is running, per an email I recently had with him, 1 million worth of auctions a month

[bigfanNY]

So it's ok to say I am too busy to do my job? The person running the auction benifits by the Auction price as much as the person who consigns the Item. It is up to him to keep the auctions fair.

Jonathan Sterling

[HRBAKER]

So it's ok to say I am too busy to do my job? The person running the auction benifits by the Auction price as much as the person who consigns the Item. It is up to him to keep the auctions fair.

Jonathan Sterling

Stop now, you're making too much sense.

[arexcrooke]

So it's ok to say I am too busy to do my job? The person running the auction benifits by the Auction price as much as the person who consigns the Item. It is up to him to keep the auctions fair.

Jonathan Sterling

Then explain how someone who runs the enormous amount of auctions he does can combat shill bidding?
Ill wait for a while because I'm not sure you nor anyone else can figure out how he can.

[nolemmings]

Agreed, and if he's pulling in that much $$$, he damn sure can afford to pay people to come up with solutions.

[thehoodedcoder]

In no way is shill bidding acceptable or should be condoned.
I just wonder how Rick is supposed to:
a-know about everyone that happens
b-stop it
when
c-he is running, per an email I recently had with him, 1 million worth of auctions a month

these numbers get sillier and sillier every time they get communicated.

so now he does 12 million dollars a year on ebay?

kevin

[arexcrooke]

Agreed, and if he's pulling in that much $$$, he damn sure can afford to pay people to come up with solutions.
Again
How would you begin to combat the issue?
And I would dare say its an issue with any large consignment seller or auction house.

[arexcrooke]

these numbers get sillier and sillier every time they get communicated.

so now he does 12 million dollars a year on ebay?

kevin

Has 1milliom in sales a month. Gross. Not net.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Then explain how someone who runs the enormous amount of auctions he does can combat shill bidding?
Ill wait for a while because I'm not sure you nor anyone else can figure out how he can.

I'll tell you one thing he can do. He can block shill bidders when the evidence is pointed out to him. He can also block them as consignors. I guess money trumps that though, right?

Besides, it's not anybody's responsibility to explain to Rick how to stop shill bidding on his auctions. He's the owner, it's his responsibility. And the excuse of time constraints, ignorance or anything else for that matter is not valid.

[CMIZ5290]

Last PSA 8 sold for $1125 by PWCC. We all know how strong his prices bring....Our do we??

[Peter_Spaeth]

5 retractions on the card now.

Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder Action Date of Bid and Retraction
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,136.00
Bid: Aug-27-13 16:42:18 PDT
Retracted: Aug-27-13 17:05:33 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,221.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:04:21 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:05:55 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,219.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:07:17 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:23:41 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,211.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 16:22:45 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 16:24:08 PDT
Member Id: m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

[arexcrooke]

I agree he can block it when brought to his attention. Hopefully he will, is, and does so in the future.

I find your second statement interesting.
Last week in the card doctor thread you were talking about how to improve the hobby by outing card doctors, shill bidders etc. (which btw I agree with) but yet you, in this thread, put the onus squarely on Rick to do just what you were yelling from the mountain tops about.

I think it is all of our jobs to help clean up and preserve this hobby of ours.

Please don't take my comments as being accusatory or combative. They are neither. I haven't posted here much because I'm newer to cards. But this topic and the one you and others were discussing earlier last week is very much like a topic that was of enormous importance in comics starting about 8 years ago when such things as trimming, pressing, CPR (crack press and resub) online sellers shenanigans etc came to light. I was on the front lines then and so I have some knowledge of what is appearing to be brought to the front via this board.

[arexcrooke]

5 retractions on the card now.

Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder Action Date of Bid and Retraction
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,136.00
Bid: Aug-27-13 16:42:18 PDT
Retracted: Aug-27-13 17:05:33 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,221.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:04:21 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:05:55 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,219.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:07:17 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:23:41 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,211.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 16:22:45 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 16:24:08 PDT
Member Id: m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT
Then someone needs to bring it to Ricks attention.
And eBay as well. Although with eBay Im not sure if they would ban that ID.

[bigfanNY]

No need to wait. You ask consigners to sign an agreement that says if the shill the auction that he will refund the bidders money past the first bid from the consigner and charge them full commission on the auction. Then they will be banned from bidding or consigneing to his future auctions. And yes he is large enough and this is important enough that he or one of his employees should look at each auctions results.
If enough shill bidding could be proved to EBAY they would have no alternative but to ban him from their site. Then everybody loses. But he has to run a fair site if he cant then ultimatly he will lose the ability to run his business on EBAY.
Based on the information posted here I would never consign or bid on any of his auctions and I am not happy saying that because I have things to sell and he gets decent prices, and many times he posts items that I would like to own.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I find your second statement interesting.
Last week in the card doctor thread you were talking about how to improve the hobby by outing card doctors, shill bidders etc. (which btw I agree with) but yet you, in this thread, put the onus squarely on Rick to do just what you were yelling from the mountain tops about.

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

[arexcrooke]

No need to wait. You ask consigners to sign an agreement that says if the shill the auction that he will refund the bidders money past the first bid from the consigner and charge them full commission on the auction. Then they will be banned from bidding or consigneing to his future auctions. And yes he is large enough and this is important enough that he or one of his employees should look at each auctions results.
If enough shill bidding could be proved to EBAY they would have no alternative but to ban him from their site. Then everybody loses. But he has to run a fair site if he cant then ultimatly he will lose the ability to run his business on EBAY.
Based on the information posted here I would never consign or bid on any of his auctions and I am not happy saying that because I have things to sell and he gets decent prices, and many times he posts items that I would like to own.
Fair enough points and well explained.
I don't think Rock is involved in the shilling. I do hope it can be addressed.

[arexcrooke]

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

Never said it was difficult to understand. Is it difficult for you to understand that just talking about it doesn't do much more than create noise? That if it is to be fixed then steps need to be taken to address it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Law enforcement reads the forum; one can hope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Guy only paid $100 extra, no biggie.

m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

[arexcrooke]

Guy only paid $100 extra, no biggie.

m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT


Sarcasm, correct?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sarcasm, correct?

Of course.

[CMIZ5290]

At the risk of arguments, I don't know how in the hell this card can sell for close to $1500. There has got to be some ideas among the many, brilliant minds on this board. What exactly is going on, and why?? Why cant more coarse consequences take place?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Never said it was difficult to understand. Is it difficult for you to understand that just talking about it doesn't do much more than create noise? That if it is to be fixed then steps need to be taken to address it?

I disagree. Talking about it let's others know about Rick's character and they can make up their own mind if they want to do business with him or not.

Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. Arex, what does that tell you about Rick's character?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,436.00
Sep-02-13 18:13:34 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,411.00
Sep-02-13 18:48:23 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,361.00
Sep-02-13 18:46:28 PDT

Member Id: e***7( 1291Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $1,311.00
Sep-02-13 18:45:30 PDT

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,295.95
Sep-02-13 17:32:25 PDT

2 feeback guy ran him up as high as he could go, then retracted his bid at 1461. Nice.

[olrac44]

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

If anybody should have the resources it would be ebay but they don't want you to know bidding information as is apparent by masking ebay id's within the bidding activity.


At some point bidders can do their 5 minutes of due diligence then make their own decision on whether they should bid or not.

[bigfanNY]

I do not think he is involved either but he runs a business that has the potential to hide problems created by others. First someone who is banned from Ebay can consign with him they do not have to go in front of the rest of Ebay with their Feedback score. They go in front of the Ebay world with His feedback score. Second is the problem being discussed sellers or friends of sellers can run up bids. There are ways to track this by using stats to look at bid patterns for bidders who bid on specific peoples consignments etc. etc. But like another member said not my business to solve his problem..But have no doubt there are ways to solve it. He has 12 million reasons to solve this quickly.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

Why are you defending Rick? You're right, nobody realistically expects him to have the resources to research each and every auction. But he does nothing when it's pointed out to him. How can you defend that???

Again, Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. I'll ask you the same question, What does that tell you about Rick's character?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

If anybody should have the resources it would be ebay but they don't want you to know bidding information as is apparent by masking ebay id's within the bidding activity.


At some point bidders can do their 5 minutes of due diligence then make their own decision on whether they should bid or not.

Because it's been called to his attention time and again here and on CU. And what is he, the CEO of Microsoft that his business is so big he can't possibly know what's going on? Please.

[the-illini]

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Why would they ever try to fix something that generates more $$$ for them at no risk?

[calvindog]

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Way too much smoke with this guy; it's really impossible to believe he's not either involved or purposely looking the other way. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[bobbyw8469]

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.


A recent sighting?

http://lamarzulli.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/head-in-the-sand1.jpeg

[HRBAKER]

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

The perfect playground for the miscreant and naive both!

[ALR-bishop]

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

Not when you can retract, Al. Then you can see how high the top guy is and push him up as high as he will go. That is not the same as a reserve.

[botn]

Law enforcement reads the forum; one can hope.

Yeah I would not hold your breath...If eBay received enough complaints about the bid retraction history I am sure they would look into it and would apply pressure to sellers who are using or allowing this to take place.

Question for the lawyers...eBay earns a fee based on the final sale's price so if they look the other way on this type of shill bidding, if one were to sue could they be named in the suit? I figure for selfish reason they might want to step in and attempt to prevent this type of bidding activity.

[Seattle799]

.

[conor912]

I honestly don't understand why (every week) this comes as shock to some people. Rick (or any other consignor) doesn't give a shit, and I can't say I blame them. It's like a big bank that makes $1B on a sketchy deal, gets caught and gets fined by the SEC for $500M. Until the punishment outweighs the benefit of the crime, it's business as usual.

[calvindog]

I honestly don't understand why (every week) this comes as shock to some people. Rick (or any other consignor) doesn't give a shit, and I can't say I blame them. It's like a big bank that makes $1B on a sketchy deal, gets caught and gets fined by the SEC for $500M. Until the punishment outweighs the benefit of the crime, it's business as usual.

Until the first grand jury subpoena for his records comes.

[Iron Horse]

Was interested on bidding. Took a look at the bid history and the high bidder. 22 bid retractions in 6 months? I'm not sure what is a high #, but that sounds high to me. I may be wrong and i am not accusing anyone of anything.


Bidder Information
Bidder: u***r ( 2026Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 405
Items bid on: 84
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 17% Help
Bid retractions: 3
Bid retractions (6 months): 22

[conor912]

Until the first grand jury subpoena for his records comes.

Sure...but see my last sentence.

[David R]

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

[botn]

Was interested on bidding. Took a look at the bid history and the high bidder. 22 bid retractions in 6 months? I'm not sure what is a high #, but that sounds high to me. I may be wrong and i am not accusing anyone of anything.


I have been on eBay since May of 1997 and I have never retracted a single bid. I am sure that most members here would say the same. 22 in 6 months is astounding. This particular bidder is either checking high bids and then retracting or he needs take a typing class so he does not make so many key stroke errors.

[Leon]

I have been on eBay since May of 1997 and I have never retracted a single bid. I am sure that most members here would say the same. 22 in 6 months is astounding. This particular bidder is either checking high bids and then retracting or he needs take a typing class so he does not make so many key stroke errors.

I might have retracted one or two bids in fourteen years but I don't ever remember doing it.

[D. Bergin]

The simple solution is that Ebay limits bid retractions. The answer is plain as day.

Ebay logic however, is not.

[Harliduck]

As a regular card buyer the only thing these "shill" threads has taught me is I will now NEVER buy from a consigner. I have in the past bought from Probstien, PWCC, ect...and now I just won't do it and have blocked all ebay accounts that take consignments. I do know what I want to spend on any given card as I do my homework, but why mess with this BS. So if those that take consignments continue to ignore these issues...the only reason I am even posting is to let them know there are folks out there that read this...and stop buying. Address the issue...or continue to let good customers simply go away.

[toledo_mudhen]

Here again - "Buy the card not the slab". I have seen tons of cards from Rick that look absolutely spot on for the grade (along with some that make you scratch your head). When I bid in an auction - 9 times out of 10 I will bid the max amount that I am willing to pay for the card - as my 1st bid. If I win then great - if not I don't normally get caught up in any bidding wars. To make a "blanket" statement that you won't buy from this or that person - is pretty much throwing in the towel. If a graded card looks like the grade to me - then I am good to go. Just my .02 worth..............

[thehoodedcoder]

Has 1milliom in sales a month. Gross. Not net.

My point is: where did these numbers come from? if they come from him, i would seriously start doubting the validity of the math.

Kevin

[D.P.Johnson]

Here again - "Buy the card not the slab". I have seen tons of cards from Rick that look absolutely spot on for the grade (along with some that make you scratch your head). When I bid in an auction - 9 times out of 10 I will bid the max amount that I am willing to pay for the card - as my 1st bid. If I win then great - if not I don't normally get caught up in any bidding wars. To make a "blanket" statement that you won't buy from this or that person - is pretty much throwing in the towel. If a graded card looks like the grade to me - then I am good to go. Just my .02 worth..............

Unfortunately, with the invention of "photoshopping", the old theory of "buy the card not the slab" doesn't always work anymore. Sellers are manipulating the scans and most sellers will not accept returns on graded cards...

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I have been on eBay since May of 1997 and I have never retracted a single bid. I am sure that most members here would say the same. 22 in 6 months is astounding. This particular bidder is either checking high bids and then retracting or he needs take a typing class so he does not make so many key stroke errors.

I also don't ever recall retracting a bid in my 14 years of eBay activity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I also don't ever recall retracting a bid in my 14 years of eBay activity.

Consign some cards, it's never too late.

[btcarfagno]

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s


If every auction from every auction house reached the max bid of the highest bidder every time you would see a bunch of records get broken. The mere fact that these types of numbers come from this same seller over and over tells me quite a lot.

IMHO he should start a strict policy that shill bidding will not be tolerated and that bids at his auctions are not allowed to be retracted without his consent. Not even sure if Ebay is capable of this or would want to be. But it would greatly reduce the problem if not totally eliminate it.

Tom C

[drcy]

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

[vintagetoppsguy]

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

I’ve never understood that mentality either. If the item is shilled, but doesn’t go above the maximum that someone is willing to spend, they don’t care? I don’t buy that. The mindset “As long as it doesn’t exceed my maximum” is not logical. It’s basic human nature to try to get things as cheaply as possible.

If you go to the car dealership with your mind made up that you’re not going to spend over $30K and the car you pick out has a sticker price of $29,995, do you still not haggle and try to get them to come down from the sticker price? Sure you do.

[Runscott]

Normally sellers shill in order to make sure they get every last penny that you are willing to pay. If they try to get more, they end up selling to their own shill i.d.

But in the case of a few famous/infamous ebay auctioneers, I believe the shilling actually creates a feeding frenzy, resulting in prices that are sometimes higher than market value. Over time a feeling grows in the collector community (among some, but not all) that the auctioneer in question has superior goods, which only exacerbates the 'problem'.

Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. Given that ebay gets a cut, I would not expect it to ever stop;if anything, ebay will simply implement additional policies to cover up our ability to prove that anything illegal is going on.

[Leon]

....
Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. .

I think there are a few people who thought it was an effective model that wish they hadn't. Hopefully there will be more that wish they hadn't also.

[Runscott]

David and David, everyone cares about getting cheated out of money, but since we are certain it occurs with many/most auction houses, then we have two choices: we put in the bid that we are willing to pay, and if we pay less, that's great, and if we suspect there are issues, we let them know. Or we refuse to bid with any auction house that we suspect shills.

I have elected to put my bid in and not worry too much about it unless I see evidence of a problem. There is only one auction house where I have recently been paying my high bid for every single item. Because of this, I might very well quit doing business with them. I contacted them about the issue and did not get a straight-forward answer, but I really didn't expect to. I just wanted to let them know that I felt I was possibly getting screwed. I will probably throw a few bids in for odd items in their next auction, and then report the problem here on this forum if the evidence is compelling. If either of you have a better idea, please let me know - I'm all for helping wiping out auction corruption.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

[conor912]

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

That's a rational thought, but often times a collector's emotions will dropkick his rationale and leave it for dead during the auction process.

[drcy]

My post was only a response to those who on occasion post "I have no problem with with me being shilled, because I got the card within my price range."

[brob28]

As a regular card buyer the only thing these "shill" threads has taught me is I will now NEVER buy from a consigner. I have in the past bought from Probstien, PWCC, ect...and now I just won't do it and have blocked all ebay accounts that take consignments. I do know what I want to spend on any given card as I do my homework, but why mess with this BS. So if those that take consignments continue to ignore these issues...the only reason I am even posting is to let them know there are folks out there that read this...and stop buying. Address the issue...or continue to let good customers simply go away.

John, I do the same thing. This means it potentially takes me longer to find items I want, but I'd rather wait than even deal with this BS.

[wonkaticket]

I have been on eBay since May of 1997 and I have never retracted a single bid. I am sure that most members here would say the same. 22 in 6 months is astounding. This particular bidder is either checking high bids and then retracting or he needs take a typing class so he does not make so many key stroke errors.

2 retractions in 10+ years each retraction was because of my clumsy typing i.e. entered 1000.00 vs. 100.00 or something. After each retraction I reentered my bid on the item….

[brob28]

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

But Al, it may mean little to you as a buyer from a practical standpoint, but potentially a lot from a monetary standpoint.

[Kenny Cole]

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

I think one big problem is that all too often stuff trumps everything else. If you've been looking for a specific card for a long time and it finally shows up, I suspect there is a tendency, at least on the part of some people, to bid on the card, try to win it, and then bitch about being cheated after they've filled their want list.

[HRBAKER]

I think one big problem is that all too often stuff trumps everything else. If you've been looking for a specific card for a long time and it finally shows up, I suspect there is a tendency, at least on the part of some people, to bid on the card, try to win it, and then bitch about being cheated after they've filled their want list.

That tendency is an epidemic in this hobby (me included).

[cammb]

This is a good reason to disregard VCP prices. They are a joke. Pay what you think the card is worth and that's all!!!!

[Runscott]

2 retractions in 10+ years each retraction was because of my clumsy typing i.e. entered 1000.00 vs. 100.00 or something. After each retraction I reentered my bid on the item….

None for me in 13 years, but I did once bid $900 instead of $90. Luckily no one else accidentally bid $800.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Another bidder with mistake prone fingers, I guess.

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: j***a( 203)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1954 Dan-Dee Potato Chips Mickey Mantle PSA 8 NM-MT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 2
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 174
Items bid on: 41
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 45%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 13

[Iron Horse]

Interesting that you will see more of these people with lot of bid retractions in the big auction going on eBay now. Just put a "Buy it now" & take offers rather then shill bidding.
It's frustrating with no real end in site.

[scotgreb]

PSA 7 1960 Clemente - a $125-$150/card shilled up to $400+

http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/cc348/scotgreb/PWCCClementeShill_zps48740b4d.png

[npa589]

Interesting that you will see more of these people with lot of bid retractions in the big auction going on eBay now. Just put a "Buy it now" & take offers rather then shill bidding.
It's frustrating with no real end in site.

Intended or unintended, this is the pun of the day (well, the previous September 4th).

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think this one shattered a world record.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=141072272076

[frankbmd]

2 retractions in 10+ years each retraction was because of my clumsy typing i.e. entered 1000.00 vs. 100.00 or something. After each retraction I reentered my bid on the item….


I mever nake mistakes.

[T206DK]

LOL, PROBSTEIN strikes again ! why do legit bidders still bid on his auctions ?

[T206DK]

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

this is exactly why he stays in "business". I put the word business in quotes , because he doesn't run it like a business should be run. If it was his primary source of income and he depended upon it he would make damn sure no shill bidding took place. there would be no need to question how he could possibly track all those bidders, because it would be part of his business plan. he would have employees and measures in place to track all auction activity ALL the time. has anyone ever contacted the prosecutor in the county where he does business ? I would be curious to hear about anything like that happening and any results of such conversations.
( this is assuming he is an honest businessman)

[Qcards]

I will vouch for Rick's character here. I have consigned many items with him and have been paid promptly and in full for every auction.

What benefit is it for him to have things shilled if he ends up winning things accidentally?

I would say to those doubters that you should use his service first before criticizing.

[tschock]

I will vouch for Rick's character here. I have consigned many items with him and have been paid promptly and in full for every auction.

Devil's advocate here. How does being paid on time vouch for his character? I mean, if there IS shill bidding going on, that should not impact on how he pays his for the items consigned to him. In fact, when you think about it from the BIDDING side, his model would HAVE to rely on keeping consignors happy, since that provides MORE opportunity to make MORE money from shill bidding.


What benefit is it for him to have things shilled if he ends up winning things accidentally?

How does he win things accidentally? What about the constant bid retractions? The shills retract until the non-shill wins. So how does he end up winning the item??? Even if he did, it's his cost of doing "business". Sometimes you lose, but most times you win. And enough to cover any "losses".


I would say to those doubters that you should use his service first before criticizing.

Again, CONSIGNMENTS to him have NOTHING to do will shill bidding (if that is going on). But I'm sure there are consignors that don't care about shill bidding since THEY make more money too. Not saying YOU do, just saying...

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT claiming that this is being done, just pointing out how vouching as a consignor doesn't PROVE anything is on the up-and-up when it comes to bidding.

[robw]

x

[tschock]

As I stated on the board before, got back into the industry after a long hiatus. Many, many ebay searches into this, the seller has a great feedback rating, lots of high-grade cards, making him presumably a reputable seller. I even bought a card via "Buy It Now" from him. Quick shipping, great transaction.

However, after reading the many threads about a potential for shill bidding, I can honestly say that I will never bid on one of this seller's auctions again, unless the seller attempts to clean this up. A seller can stop these actions if they want to-just a couple of ways:
1-No bids will be accepted with 25 feedback or less, unless pre-registered.
2-Choose your consignors carefully. As an auctioneer, you represent the consignor of an item. If there is reason to suspect manipulative or deceitful practices, you should not do business with said consignor. It can only hurt you in the long run.

3-More than "X" number (2,3,5?) bid retractions gets you banned from future bidding.

[nsaddict]

Mike Q. you are way OUT of the loop here! No doubt you get paid in a timely fashion, but that has NOTHING to do with this thread. However, I'm not suggesting Rick shills himself, but does very little to combat the problem. Please explain why a high percentage of his auctions have bidders bidding almost exclusively with him, many that have low feedback with high retractions. Also he doesn't get "stuck" winning items. You need to go back and read the facts here. If you don't get it you never will.

an example... http://tinyurl.com/mna8w3m check bidder with 641 feedbacks

edited to add:
Bidder Information
Bidder: a***c ( 641Feedback score is 500 to 999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: 2009 Bowman Chrome BLUE Refractor Mike Trout RC 150/150 BGS 9.5 w/ 10 AUTO
Bids on this item: 4

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 167
Items bid on: 72
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 53% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 93

[Leon]

Mike Q. you are way OUT of the loop here! No doubt you get paid in a timely fashion, but that has NOTHING to do with this thread. However, I'm not suggesting Rick shills himself, but does very little to combat the problem. Please explain why a high percentage of his auctions have bidders bidding almost exclusively with him, many that have low feedback with high retractions. Also he doesn't get "stuck" winning items. You need to go back and read the facts here. If you don't get it you never will.

an example... http://tinyurl.com/mna8w3m check bidder with 641 feedbacks

Doesn't everyone have 93 bid retractions in the last 6 mos.? I actually think this is almost one for law enforcement. It is that over the top.

[Qcards]

To Richard L; not sure where you are coming from re "not getting it".

I have been to Rick's office to drop off items and if you saw the operation in action, you would realize that the guy doens't have time to micro manage bidding action on every lot.

This is more of an eBay problem than a seller issue.

[Leon]

To Richard L; not sure where you are coming from re "not getting it".

I have been to Rick's office to drop off items and if you saw the operation in action, you would realize that the guy doens't have time to micro manage bidding action on every lot.

This is more of an eBay problem than a seller issue.

I want to trust Rick too...but how do you explain not taking action against someone that bids over 50% of their bids, on your items, with 93 bid retractions in the last 6 months? Is that the behavior of an honest person?

[vintagetoppsguy]

This is more of an eBay problem than a seller issue.

You're wrong, dude! When the seller is made aware of it and does nothing about it, it's definitely a seller issue. The fact that Rick had been made aware (twice now) of Panky shilling his own auctions and does nothing about it speaks volumes of Rick's character.

Edited to add: Not only does Rick do nothing about it, he still lets Panky continue to consign with him.

[nsaddict]

Mike, you really can't speak for his entire operation? And I disagree it's only an ebay issue. There are other prolific sellers on ebay that have cancelled bids with low feedback or high retractions, perhaps you could mention this to Rick? Could you post the items you consigned in the last 90 days? Do you happen to know Joe Pankiewicz?

[Lordstan]

Interesting thread.
I have bought an item or two from Rick and didn't feel I was shilled, but others experience obviously differs.

My point to responding was to the discussion about how having a max bid in mind and using a snipe does in fact work, to a degree, to protect bidders from shilling.

My understanding of the most common way a shill works is that they bid up an auction to see where another bidders top bid is and then retract to just below it. If I place my max bid 10-20 seconds or less from the end there is really no time for a shill to bid me up to my max. If the winning bid is below my max I win, if not I won't, but there isn't really way, in this model, for a shiller to get me to pay more.
Another shill model, is to bid until they hit an amount and force people to bid above that amount. In a sense, this creates a hidden reserve amount. Well, in this case, if I am willing to pay $500 for something and a shill bids it to $200 right at the beginning I can still choose whether I want to pay the $200 or not. While it might've sold for less without the shill, it also might've not been for sale if the consignor wasn't guaranteed they were going to get the $200 or it would've started with a $200 reserve/opening bid to begin with. While starting with an opening bid of $200 would be more transparent and/or ethical, the net result is pretty much the same. I put a snipe of $500 with 5 secs to go and I either win it for over $200 or I don't.

If you believe that Rick is either complicit in the shilling or is implicitly approving of the misbehavior by inaction, certainly you can voice your opinion, by not supporting his auctions. That being said, my experience is that stuff trumps all. I think Kenny's quote sums it up perfectly.
"I think one big problem is that all too often stuff trumps everything else. If you've been looking for a specific card for a long time and it finally shows up, I suspect there is a tendency, at least on the part of some people, to bid on the card, try to win it, and then bitch about being cheated after they've filled their want list."
I also don't think Sports Memorabilia is alone in this quagmire. I think it's very a common pattern of behavior in any collectible arena.

[packs]

What's the deal with bidders who bid excessive amounts of times? I saw one auction recently that had something like 33 bids but the high bid was something like $25. Why?

[vintagetoppsguy]

My understanding of the most common way a shill works is that they bid up an auction to see where another bidders top bid is and then retract to just below it. If I place my max bid 10-20 seconds or less from the end there is really no time for a shill to bid me up to my max. If the winning bid is below my max I win, if not I won't, but there isn't really way, in this model, for a shiller to get me to pay more.


I'm not sure sniping eliminates shill bidding. I hear others say that, but I'm not so sure it's true. There are also snipe shills (or is it a shill snipe?) that you have to consider.

Let's say a seller has a card and they really don't want to take less than $100 for it. They start the auction at $.99 and let it run. With a couple hours left in the auction, it's only at $30 and the seller starts to get nervous. The seller places a snipe of $99.99 with one of their other accounts and that ensures that it won't go for less than their desired amount. Well, let's say you have a snipe of $95, but you lose to the snipe shill of $99.99. You got shilled and never even knew it.

It's a snipe, but it's also a shill. Too many people focus on the shill during the auction and not the snipe shill at the end of the auction which happens way too often.

[tschock]

To Richard L; not sure where you are coming from re "not getting it".

I have been to Rick's office to drop off items and if you saw the operation in action, you would realize that the guy doens't have time to micro manage bidding action on every lot.

This is more of an eBay problem than a seller issue.

Seems like you are either apologizing for, or just ignoring the aspect of shill bidding, as you are ignoring the proof provided of Rick's knowledge of this. (see Panky thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174608, among other examples provided)

Or, just a thought as to another possibility..... You DO get it, but as a consignor, simply enjoy the "fruits of shilling", whether doing it yourself or not?

Nothing motivates people more than a vested interest.

[ullmandds]

agreed...if i were a consigner i probably wouldn't have a problem with more $$$$ in my pocket either?! how'd u feel as a buyer?

[ALR-bishop]

David---I snipe but would not say shilling does not impact me. Someone can run up the price of their card during the auction or at the end with their own snipe and I pay a higher price if the shill is above other bids against me.

But if I get the card at my snipe price then to my way of thinking it does not matter from a practical bottom line standpoint whether the seller set his price by a BIN, a reserve, a minimum bid, or a shill. The ethics are sure different and I try to avoid auctions where regular shilling occurs, but if I need or want a card,I just set my snipe at what I am willing to pay for it...and let go.

I understand others disagree and I respect their views. I am only speaking for myself after years of buying on ebay and from auction houses

[nolemmings]

I have been to Rick's office to drop off items and if you saw the operation in action, you would realize that the guy doens't have time to micro manage bidding action on every lot.

ah yes, the sad plight of many: "I'm too busy counting my money to care how it is I'm making it". Really tugs at your heartstrings, doesn't it?

[Exhibitman]

What's the deal with bidders who bid excessive amounts of times? I saw one auction recently that had something like 33 bids but the high bid was something like $25. Why?

That can be a function of eBay mobile on an iPhone. It sets up the bid automatically at the next increment but you have to specially type in any other bid. I've often been bidding from a place where typing in a bid isn't convenient so I've just tapped the mobile next number repeatedly until I either top or hit where I'd like to stop.

[tschock]

One thing that doesn't get discussed much is how shill bidding negatively affects other SELLERS as well.

Unlike Leon and other deep pockets who can pay anything (just kidding, Leon), many of us have a budget.

So for example, let's say I have a $500 budget. I am looking at Bob's item A (auction) and Joe's item B (fixed price $300). My main goal is item A, but will buy item B if I still have enough left in my budget. I put in a max bid of $300 for item A (up front or snipe, doesn't matter). If item A gets shilled to over $200, then Joe doesn't sell item B. So Bob's shill bidder just cost Joe a sale. How do you think Joe, as a SELLER, would view this?

This IS different than losing out to non-shill Sam bidding over $200 on item A (and then Joe not selling item B), which is letting the market determine the actual value of Bob's item, and to what extent Joe can compete in a "free" market.

(I'm sure someone could come up with a better example of adverse effect on the seller than this)

[Exhibitman]

But if I get the card at my snipe price then to my way of thinking it does not matter from a practical bottom line standpoint whether the seller set his price by a BIN, a reserve, a minimum bid, or a shill. The ethics are sure different and I try to avoid auctions where regular shilling occurs, but if I need or want a card,I just set my snipe at what I am willing to pay for it...and let go.

I understand others disagree and I respect their views. I am only speaking for myself after years of buying on ebay and from auction houses

+1

I appreciate that shilling is illegal and wrong and if the seller wants a minimum or reserve just set it, but it is less evil than the chip and retract strategy used to 'out' max bids in the netherworld of eBay consignment sales. The only way to participate in the eBay system with any semblance of security is to use snipes to hide my max bid and to try and force the shillers into setting de facto reserves that I can decide whether to meet when i set my snipe rather than throwing down a max bid that the shillers can chip away at until they hit it only to retract to the next lowest level.

[Lordstan]

I'm not sure sniping eliminates shill bidding. I hear others say that, but I'm not so sure it's true. There are also snipe shills (or is it a shill snipe?) that you have to consider.

Let's say a seller has a card and they really don't want to take less than $100 for it. They start the auction at $.99 and let it run. With a couple hours left in the auction, it's only at $30 and the seller starts to get nervous. The seller places a snipe of $99.99 with one of their other accounts and that ensures that it won't go for less than their desired amount. Well, let's say you have a snipe of $95, but you lose to the snipe shill of $99.99. You got shilled and never even knew it.

It's a snipe, but it's also a shill. Too many people focus on the shill during the auction and not the snipe shill at the end of the auction which happens way too often.

David,
I don't think sniping stops shilling, but I think it can lessen the effect on the buyer to a degree.
Snipe shilling can certainly happen, but in your example it didn't cost you any money. They shiller bought his own item for $99. You didn't win the card because of shilling, but no money was taken out of your pocket. I believe the legal phrase that is used is that you are still "whole." (I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!). Additionally, if you're pissed about losing the item at $99, because you would've paid $100 for it, why bid only $95?
I do wholeheartedly agree that it would be more ethical to just start the items at the minimum you're willing to accept and go with it. It's just that many start with low bids trying to capture the feeding frenzy mentality of the buyers and then panic if it's not up where they want it. Unfortunately, until buyers, sellers, and ebay are each held accountable for their roles in the
game, it will continue.
Best,
Mark

[Leon]

Unlike Leon and other deep pockets who can pay anything (just kidding, Leon), many of us have a budget.



Uh, the only thing in my pockets are cards. No money, but some cards.....I am as broke as the next guy :). But hey, I am having fun....

and to add, all of these retractions and shill bidding are just plain wrong. There is no excuse and no way to justify it. And I am not saying I know for sure it's being done, but it doesn't look good.

[egbeachley]

Since the majority of the problem lies with the bid-and-retract Schiller, why not do something about it? Make a large bid early and watch the Schiller go above then retract to below your bid. Then you retract right before the 12-hours left mark. The shiller will get stuck paying around 15% commission and fees on an overinflated price. A few of those will stop them.

[earlywynnfan]

OK, what would you guys think:

I post my baseball autos during baseball season, so I'm just back to ebay after a long cold winter. My first batch of auto'd BB are closing today. (All cheapies, nothing big.)

This morning I wake up to see two things that I think should bother me:

1) One guy was high bidder on two balls last night retracted both bids -- 5 days after placing them -- because "entered wrong bid amount."

2) But then I notice a different bidder put 14 bids on my Lou Brock ball, with the highest being 10 bucks! He just kept bidding 50 cent increments until he beat out the higher bidder. If I were the other guy, I'd bail on my auctions because it looks like I'm shill bidding!!

Should I block either of these yahoos??

Ken

[howard38]

I don't know about the first scenario but the second just sounds like a guy who placed a max bid.

[earlywynnfan]

I don't know about the first scenario but the second just sounds like a guy who placed a max bid.

No, it shows up in my bid list as 14 individual bids, 50 cents each.

[bnorth]

No, it shows up in my bid list as 14 individual bids, 50 cents each.

I rarely use eBay but don't they still have the tap were it automatically raised your bid every time you click on it? I know I have used it before.

[D. Bergin]

OK, what would you guys think:

I post my baseball autos during baseball season, so I'm just back to ebay after a long cold winter. My first batch of auto'd BB are closing today. (All cheapies, nothing big.)

This morning I wake up to see two things that I think should bother me:

1) One guy was high bidder on two balls last night retracted both bids -- 5 days after placing them -- because "entered wrong bid amount."

2) But then I notice a different bidder put 14 bids on my Lou Brock ball, with the highest being 10 bucks! He just kept bidding 50 cent increments until he beat out the higher bidder. If I were the other guy, I'd bail on my auctions because it looks like I'm shill bidding!!

Should I block either of these yahoos??

Ken


First guy I would block. Second guy is a normal small increment bidder. Pretty common since the beginning of Ebay. Nothing suspicious IMO.

[D. Bergin]

Since the majority of the problem lies with the bid-and-retract Schiller, why not do something about it? Make a large bid early and watch the Schiller go above then retract to below your bid. Then you retract right before the 12-hours left mark. The shiller will get stuck paying around 15% commission and fees on an overinflated price. A few of those will stop them.


Doesn't that then make YOU the shiller?

Retractions are a bane on ebay, and they should be outlawed with very few exceptions or strict limitations.

[howard38]

No, it shows up in my bid list as 14 individual bids, 50 cents each.
Wouldn't it show up that way if he had a max bid? Each time he was outbid an automatic bid would be made so long as it didn't exceed his max. In either case I don't see anything wrong with it unless he doesn't pay for the card.