Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Thread created for future Google searches...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=155402

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174512

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174534

[auggiedoggy]

Thread created for future Google searches...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=155402

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174512

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=174534

Well, THAT was some interesting morning reading!! :eek:

And more than a tad depressing. :(

[nsaddict]

Seems like this Joseph guy has some nice items at auction, click on auction links. Darn I missed bidding on that 1961 Topps complete set. I used to love watching Groucho on You Bet Your Life, today's phrase is "screen capture". I was a decent cross country runner in high school living in Passiac. I was dating this girl from Cedar Grove and my best time for the 8 mile run was 44:48, anyone impressed?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Joseph-Pankiewicz-Sportscards/118125758251089

[Peter_Spaeth]

It just goes to show that even low grade cards can be altered, improved, whatever word you like.

[D.P.Johnson]

One of you old school Jersey guy's needs to "Go find Joey and do him up"...

[t206fix]

One of you old school Jersey guy's needs to "Go find Joey and do him up"...

I think that "Joey" is the old school Jersey guy.... I think this thing runs deep - maybe even Tony Soprano has his hand in it...

[D.P.Johnson]

I think that "Joey" is the old school Jersey guy.... I think this thing runs deep - maybe even Tony Soprano has his hand in it...

Nah, Joey doesn't have an Italian last name...:)...

[Leon]

It just goes to show that even low grade cards can be altered, improved, whatever word you like.

I am not sure anyone ever said they can't be. I think the term I have used is something like "more prevalent"... in high grade cards. Even that is debateable but that would be my assumption due to many factors.

[nsaddict]

This guy must have a passion for the hobby, according to his facebook page he is a grader at SGC!

https://www.facebook.com/joe.pankiewicz

[ullmandds]

That's quite interesting?!

I sense dung heading for a fan?!

[HRBAKER]

IF it's true, would you be surprised?

[kengoldin]

This guy must have a passion for the hobby, according to his facebook page he is a grader at SGC!

https://www.facebook.com/joe.pankiewicz

Hello all. In fairness to SGC, I emailed this thread to its owner, who read it and confirmed in email to me that Joe Pankiewicz is NOT an employee of SGC and has not been for many years.

I am posting this as I did not want to see SGC unfairly get hit with fallout from the wrath of these threads.

regards
Ken Goldin

[nsaddict]

For the record, my post was not a swipe at SGC in any form. But a grader from a TPG (even in the past) would have advantages in buying/selling cards over the average Joe (pun intended). Let me give you an example:





http://tinyurl.com/n26j9a3



http://tinyurl.com/n72kbpg

Y'all can draw your own conclusions. Anyone know how long ago he departed as a grader and the reason why?

[kengoldin]

" pank hasn't worked for SGC in over 10 years"

That's the quote

[vintagetoppsguy]

For the record, my post was not a swipe at SGC in any form. But a grader from a TPG (even in the past) would have advantages in buying/selling cards over the average Joe (pun intended). Let me give you an example:





http://tinyurl.com/n26j9a3



http://tinyurl.com/n72kbpg

Y'all can draw your own conclusions. Anyone know how long ago he departed as a grader and the reason why?


Wow! :eek:

Pank won that PSA 4 Robinson and magically bumped it to an SGC 6.5? Wow!

Then he shilled it in Probstein's auction the second time around!

It's all right there in the bid history. His new eBay name is cgseller89 (he just changed it) with a feedback of 402.

I would like SGCs comment on this!!!

[botn]

SGC has no way of knowing the history of the 50 Roby. I understand your anger but it should be directed at Joe P and from what you have suggested, Probstein. By the way, I applaud your gathering the data and facts. Nice job.

[Karl Mattson]

It's all right there in the bid history. His new eBay name is cgseller89 (he just changed it) with a feedback of 402.

He apparently also has over 9600 FB as "pank21", including over 400 purchases from Probstein between June 2011 and July 2012.

[Cardboard Junkie]

I'm flabbergasted!

[the 'stache]

David, first of all, let me say I applaud your research efforts.

I don't even know where to begin with this. In my line of work, we'd call this market manipulation. It's deceptive, immoral, and illegal.

I know PSA provides their opinion on an incredible number of cards, but how can they not see some of the alterations being made?

[CharleyBrown]

Is there any possibility that he established some friendships among other graders / people working for PSA and SGC?

[atx840]

No bump for you!!

BOUGHT (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/380653581824)

SOLD (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Topps-Hockey-10-Gump-Worsley-NY-Rangers-HOF-PSA-7-NM-CENTERED-SMR-230-/360713164476?pt=US_Hockey_Trading_Cards&hash=item53fc2e16bc&nma=true&si=qmR%252B1r6sVq7NgzpXyn9XIuewuxk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

http://i.imgur.com/6rMGlUV.jpg

[atx840]

A $600 increase.

BOUGHT (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/360670047328)

SOLD (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-All-American-Football-90-Charley-ORourke-PSA-8-NM-MT-SMR-850-/360713160966?pt=US_Football&hash=item53fc2e0906&nma=true&si=qmR%252B1r6sVq7NgzpXyn9XIuewuxk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

http://i.imgur.com/fbuOyoi.jpg

[the 'stache]

One question for you guys: do the cards that are being posted in these different discussions sell often in Probstein auctions? Is it possible he sells an Art Shell rookie, and then sells another six weeks later, not recognizing it's the same card with a different grade? How many people are working for him? Or, is he doing the lion's share of work himself? Obviously I am not at all familiar with his operation beyond seeing his name on Ebay.

Am I being obtuse here?

[D.P.Johnson]

One question for you guys: do the cards that are being posted in these different discussions sell often in Probstein auctions? Is it possible he sells an Art Shell rookie, and then sells another six weeks later, not recognizing it's the same card with a different grade? How many people are working for him? Or, is he doing the lion's share of work himself? Obviously I am not at all familiar with his operation beyond seeing his name on Ebay.

Am I being obtuse here?

I don't know exactly how many, but he has people working for him...

[Wite3]

oops...already mentioned

[botn]

Joshua,

It was mentioned above but Joe has long been gone from SGC. They should probably ask him to remove that from his facebook page.

Greg

[bobbyw8469]

The Gump Worsley "No Bump for you!" cards are not the same card. I would go back to the drawing board on that one!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

The Gump Worsley "No Bump for you!" cards are not the same card. I would go back to the drawing board on that one!!

Wrong. They are the same card. I didn't think they were the same either at first, but if you spend enough time studying the two, they definitely are the same card.

Look at the bottom border notch under the "Y" in York.

Look at the white print spots next to the "L" in Lorne and just above the "N" in New.

Look at the rough cut right border on both cards. The line up exactly the same.

I believe it was cleaned before it went from a 7 to an 8, but it is definitely the same card.

[Gobucsmagic74]

Wrong. They are the same card. I didn't think they were the same either at first, but if you spend enough time studying the two, they definitely are the same card.

Look at the bottom border notch under the "Y" in York.

Look at the white print spots next to the "L" in Lorne and just above the "N" in New.

Look at the rough cut right border on both cards. The line up exactly the same.

I believe it was cleaned before it went from a 7 to an 8, but it is definitely the same card.

The card didn't receive a bump to 8, but I do agree its the same card just cleaned up (particularly the print in the upper left corner and the mark just left of his crew-cut).

[vintagetoppsguy]

The card didn't receive a bump to 8, but I do agree its the same card just cleaned up (particularly the print in the upper left corner and the mark just left of his crew-cut).

You are correct. I was thinking of the other one that did bump. Either way, yes, it looks like it was cleaned.

[thehoodedcoder]

This is starting to look reeeeeeaaallllY bad.

kevin

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good detective work by the guys on this thread. Unfortunately, this is likely the very small tip of a very large iceberg.

[nsaddict]

http://tinyurl.com/ktskp86

Got this link from Joseph Pankiewicz Sportscards facebook page. If you click on the link you'll see Probstein is the seller and pank21 is the 3rd highest bidder. Those of you with facebook must be signed in to see his fb pages with info I believe. This thread has 100 views per response which is very high, will be interesting to see if anything comes from it.

[egbeachley]

I wonder what percentage of these upgrades are from cards purchased at shows with no scans to provide comparisons. I expect every major collector of graded cards has these alterations in their collection.

[D. Bergin]

I wonder what they are doing to clean up these cards like this?

I admit I thought the Worsley were completely different cards for awhile.

Are they blasting the stray print marks with UV or something?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wonder what percentage of these upgrades are from cards purchased at shows with no scans to provide comparisons. I expect every major collector of graded cards has these alterations in their collection.

I have a great deal of admiration for the ethical people who alter cards and the ethical ebay sellers and auction houses who knowingly list them.

[MattyC]

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.

For your $5 a card, you aren't getting an FBI crime lab, you are getting a quick glance. And these cards are being doctored by experts. It is not realistic to expect grading services to stop every altered card that comes their way.

[barrysloate]

For your $5 a card, you aren't getting an FBI crime lab, you are getting a quick glance. And these cards are being doctored by experts. It is not realistic to expect grading services to stop every altered card that comes their way.

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

[D.P.Johnson]

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.


And, I suppose it also would be nice if they didn't claim that anywhere between 2 and 5 of their grading experts didn't meticulously look at every card submitted...

[Peter_Spaeth]

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

[D. Bergin]

I think the real onus here is on the company who gets paid to detect these alterations-- and fails to do their stated job. They also get paid to grade accurately and consistently, another thing it seems they struggle to get right.

Call me crazy, but an authentication company should be able to authenticate. A grading company should be able to grade.


I suppose it's depends on what's actually being done to the card. If an alteration is being done in a way that can't be detected, or leaves no evidence on the card itself, I'm at a loss to determine what can be done.

[barrysloate]

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

[HRBAKER]

Barry, unless I missed it you don't market yourself as the world's leading expert at detecting them either do you?

[MattyC]

Why should collectors expect them to get it right far more often than they do? Because they are a for-profit, publicly traded company advertised as "professional." Not advanced hobbyists, not just very experienced, but a professional who gets paid good money to get it right. That term means a lot to me, when someone brands themselves a professional. It elevates them to a level where a high success rate is expected. Those expectations should not be created if they cannot be met, in my humble opinion.

Now no human or company is absolutely perfect, and expecting zero mistakes or missteps is unrealistic I'll be first to admit-- but it is incumbent upon a professional grading and authentication service (or at least one that wants to last and be successful) to keep pace or stay ahead of the experts on the opposite end of the table, so to speak.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am sure PSA and SGC are doing the best they can within the parameters of what realistically can be done for the fees they charge. But they are up against people with decades of experience in working cards who know all the tricks to avoid detection, and y'all can get on your soapboxes as much as you want but what you see is what you are going to get.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

People aren't wiling to pay $25 a card, Barry. If the TPGs could charge more profitably, don't you think they would be doing so already? All rational businesses charge the most they can.

[botn]

On this thread and several others, we have the benefit of before and after pictures. The grading companies do not have them nor do they have the time to research each card submitted to see it's history. As has been suggested repeatedly, and for many years, many alterations are simply not able to be detected no matter how much time or money is being charged. Someone, maybe it was earlier on this thread, posted a quote from SGC on this very issues. Not every card has to go through massive restoration to go up 2 or 3 grades. Even a one grade bump can simply be the results of a grader being too tough at that particular moment.

[barrysloate]

You're probably right Peter, but if I had a choice to pay either $5 or $25, knowing that for the higher fee they were likely to get it right, but for $5 they might do a sloppy job, I would go for the deluxe service. That's me. Maybe I would send fewer cards in to keep the fees down. Not every T206 common with three creases needs to be in a holder. I would be more selective, that's all.

[barrysloate]

Barry, unless I missed it you don't market yourself as the world's leading expert at detecting them either do you?

I'm not even downtown Brooklyn's leading expert. That's why I submitted cards and paid the fees, to take advantage of the graders' expertise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, even if they offered that option which they probably wouldn't because of the implication that they will do a worse job for $5, that only takes care of cards you submit yourself, and doesn't help at all in terms of buying cards already graded in the marketplace.

[HRBAKER]

The whole inter-related marketing mechanism is amazing. People send cards in relying on expertise that has been demonstrated repeatedly to be very limited. Auction houses rely on TPG because it essentially allows them to wash their hands of grading and authenticity issues even though again the system is very flawed. It comes down to the fact that customers vote over and over again that it is more important what the slab says than whether there is really a high level of expertise behind it. As long as slab = liquidity it is going to be this way.

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

[barrysloate]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

[barrysloate]

The whole inter-related marketing mechanism is amazing. People send cards in relying on expertise that has been demonstrated repeatedly to be very limited. Auction houses rely on TPG because it essentially allows them to wash their hands of grading and authenticity issues even though again the system is very flawed. It comes down to the fact that customers vote over and over again that it is more important what the slab says than whether there is really a high level of expertise behind it. As long as slab = liquidity it is going to be this way.

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

That's exactly right Jeff. The slab gives everyone a free pass.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Collectors don't care enough to change things. Criminal deterrence is one possibility, but I am not sure how realistic proof beyond a reasonable doubt in this context is, even assuming a governmental body deemed this an important enough issue to devote lots of funding to, and even then, most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

[botn]

...most card doctors and the auction houses that facilitate them have made a tremendous amount of money and can afford the best defense lawyers.

Hey no plugs. He can afford a banner ad.

[barrysloate]

I do believe Peter, that although we always say "buy the card, not the holder", a great majority of collectors do in fact swear by the label. If a card is trimmed but the label says 8, all is well with the world.

[botn]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The ethical people who alter cards and the ethical ebay sellers and auction houses that facilitate them have made it a very difficult hobby to navigate for people who care to some extent about having unaltered cards in decent grades. The best I have been able to figure out is to scrutinize cards pretty carefully within the limits of my knowledge of how to detect alterations, to avoid certain sellers like the plague they are, and to VCP every card I am thinking of buying to see if it can be traced to one of those sellers. But I am sure it is only effective to a limited extent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

I am sure the grading services do the best they can, but the economics of the business, as well as the greater skills of card doctors, limit their effectiveness.

[MattyC]

Do the police catch every thief or murderer? Does that mean we make sure that taxes no longer go to fund the police departments?

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

[pepis]

A $600 increase.

BOUGHT (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/360670047328)

SOLD (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-All-American-Football-90-Charley-ORourke-PSA-8-NM-MT-SMR-850-/360713160966?pt=US_Football&hash=item53fc2e0906&nma=true&si=qmR%252B1r6sVq7NgzpXyn9XIuewuxk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

http://i.imgur.com/fbuOyoi.jpg

The real shocker i see here is the mental status of the buyers!
investors?, registry nuts in search of false glory?! i can't imagine a true collector paying over 14 times more for a card in a psa 8 holder even know
they're not capable of being able to tell the difference over a much cheaper
and absolute same looking psa7, you hear from many wanna be collectors say,
buy the card not the holder BUT this are the ones paying that crazy money
for that one higher grade!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

So are you going to stop buying graded cards?

[D.P.Johnson]

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

[MattyC]

Peter, no, not at all. I will happily continue to collect. I just think that what sometimes gets lost in the discussion, with there being more than enough (deserved) blame to direct at the card doctors, is the responsibility of the TPGs to keep stepping their game up. That's all.

Often times they do charge way more than $5 for their service. Depending on the value and turnaround time requested, a single card can cost quite a bit more than single digits.

Everyone has their own expectations and tolerance for those expectations not being met. I respect those differences in all of us. To each their own.

That said, I'd love to have bosses or customers who look at my performance when it's off and simply say, 'That's okay, you are doing your best.' It's impossible to quantify or know how hard the TPGs are trying, which makes any healthy debate difficult. All we can see is some of what gets through, and some of what is grossly misgraded. I would actually agree that they get it right the vast majority of the time, so the question each individual has their own right to answer is: what success rate is expected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What is your basis for saying they need to step up their game? Don't you think in a competitive market they already are doing the best they know how? And if you don't think they are and have no faith in them, why do you continue to buy their product?

[ullmandds]

I for one do not believe that the third-party graders Are doing the best that they possibly can!

[nolemmings]

I for one do not believe that the third-party graders Arguing the best that they possibly can!

+1

[Cardboard Junkie]

I suspect that the sellers, the consigners, the third party graders, the card doctors, are all in cahoots, and they all belong in the hoosegow. Dave.:(

[Stonepony]

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

+1

[botn]

The police are a public service, whereas a TPG is a service being offered sheerly for profit. If police were to stop receiving funding, social chaos would ensue. A card grading company is not obligated to be funded by the people, who can simply choose an alternative if the service does not meet advertised expectations.

Well of course, but my point was that the people who are in charge with catching the bad guys do not always get them despite doing everything in their power. So what are the alternatives?

[CW]

The real shocker i see here is the mental status of the buyers!
investors?, registry nuts in search of false glory?! i can't imagine a true collector paying over 14 times more for a card in a psa 8 holder even know
they're not capable of being able to tell the difference over a much cheaper
and absolute same looking psa7, you hear from many wanna be collectors say,
buy the card not the holder BUT this are the ones paying that crazy money
for that one higher grade!

While I agree that is a crazy premium for an "8" over a "7", on that specific card there is more to the story. The O'Rourke card is one of the top 2 toughest cards in the set to get in a PSA 8 grade. Still a crazy price, but that explains the big premium being paid. Many collectors who choose to build that set shoot for all 8s.

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

Unfortunately, many will deal with it by choosing to leave the hobby. :(

If I'm not mistaken, there are several members of this board who have contacts at PSA and SCG, and this specific issue has been brought to their attention. Thus, since fairly solid evidence exists that this person "Joe" is altering cards and submitting them for grading, I wonder why the folks at PSA or SCG don't ban "Joe" from making further submissions...

Most likely because his checks clear. ;)

[4815162342]

Increasing grading fees was mentioned earlier. I believe that a new pricing structure is in order. The fee to grade one of my Ryne Sandberg rookies should not be equal to the fee charged to grade one of my E105s. CPAs (are supposed to) charge tax preparation fees based upon the difficulty of the return. Insurance cost is determined by several factors. Why is grading not priced similarly?

[tribefan]

Increasing grading fees was mentioned earlier. I believe that a new pricing structure is in order. The fee to grade one of my Ryne Sandberg rookies should not be equal to the fee charged to grade one of my E105s. CPAs (are supposed to) charge tax preparation fees based upon the difficulty of the return. Insurance cost is determined by several factors. Why is grading not priced similarly?

It is, to a degree. PSA charges more to grade a $1000 card than a $100 card. The $5 grading fees being referenced are only for sub $100 cards, or so they state. Maybe the big guys get a different break.

The card doctors will always be one step ahead of the authenticator, much like the PED users are one step ahead of the enforcers.

[conor912]

Increasing grading fees was mentioned earlier. I believe that a new pricing structure is in order. The fee to grade one of my Ryne Sandberg rookies should not be equal to the fee charged to grade one of my E105s. CPAs (are supposed to) charge tax preparation fees based upon the difficulty of the return. Insurance cost is determined by several factors. Why is grading not priced similarly?

Because, in theory, they spend as much time grading and authenticating a $5 cards as they do a $500. In their minds, same amount of work for each card = same grading fee for each card.

[Deertick]

What is your basis for saying they need to step up their game? Don't you think in a competitive market they already are doing the best they know how? And if you don't think they are and have no faith in them, why do you continue to buy their product?

Their sigma level is where they can afford it to be, probably a 3 (93.3% accuracy). To lower it significantly would be cost prohibitive. The cost of raising their effectiveness to a 4 (99.4%) could possibly mean that the price per card that has been discussed would be a pipe dream. I would estimate it to be in the $75 range.

As someone mentioned, the higher price would preclude many lower end cards from being submitted. This would have the dual effect of reducing the cost and improving accuracy. However, the cost would still be much higher than the present, as the decrease in volume would necessitate an increase in margin.

As in everything in life, you get what you pay for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jack Welch and baseball cards, eh? :D:D:D

[WhenItWasAHobby]

From PSA's website:

The Advantages of PSA Grading

PSA provides expert analysis and protection for your collectibles. Using state-of-the-art, proprietary methods, the hobby's most astute and knowledgeable grading experts render carefully considered, unbiased third-party opinions of grade. When you see a card/ticket in a holder displaying the PSA logo, you can be confident that the card/ticket has been properly authenticated and graded by the experts at Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA). These are some of the attributes that have made PSA the largest and most respected third-party grading and authentication service in the world.

http://www.psacard.com/About/WhyPSA

I highlighted the word "confident" because the foundation of any con game is confidence. When people like myself have openly complained about doctored cards getting past the graders with credible proof, PSA has taken a very aggressive adversarial position against myself and others such as banning us from their message boards and club memberships and nothing has obviously been done to address the problem.

At what point does proven incompetence with no diligent attempt fix the problem encroach actions of fraud? What about causes of action such as gross negligence for failing to fix a problem that you are aware of or unjust enrichment which is unjustly profiting from fraud? As I've said many times before, you don't have to have purchased a doctored card to be a victim; card doctoring devalues good cards by artificially inflating the supply of the same cards.

[D.P.Johnson]

I wonder if the people who've recently bought these altered cards are aware they've been altered??? If not, it wouldn't be too difficult to let them know.
I'm sure some of them won't be too happy knowing the card they just spent thousands of dollars on was recently altered by "Joe", and if they ever attempt to resell it knowing it's been altered, they could be also be held liable. I also think if PSA and/or SGC keeps letting "Joe" submit cards after knowing he has purposely altered them in the past, and another one of them "accidently" slips by their graders...well...let's just say I hope they have good attorneys. Perhaps a class action lawsuit is in order...

[Peter_Spaeth]

A class action lawsuit sounds like a great idea. I just have four questions for you and I'll get right to work on it. Who should be our named plaintiff? How should we define the class? Who should we sue? And what should we sue them for?

[thehoodedcoder]

are you an attorney?

kevin

[nolemmings]

With that avatar of his you dare to ask such a question? :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

With that avatar of his you dare to ask such a question? :)

Todd you crack me up. PS I would have chosen Mr. Rogers but it was taken.

[frankbmd]

Kangaroo Court is Peter's area of expertise.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kangaroo Court is Peter's area of expertise.

Owch. LOL.

[D.P.Johnson]

Yeah, I know a lot of attorney's looking for work, but let's not jump the gun on the filing the class action lawsuit just yet. Now, if PSA and SCG keep letting "Joe" submit altered cards and grading them...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, I know a lot of attorney's looking for work, but let's not jump the gun on the filing the class action lawsuit just yet. Now, if PSA and SCG keep letting "Joe" submit altered cards and grading them...

OK I'll keep my day job for now. On a serious note, I think there are quite a few "Joe"s out there. And the problem is even if they banned Joe, he would just submit through somebody else.

[thehoodedcoder]

im still waiting for the giant hammer i hear is coming.

kevin

[botn]

Yeah, I know a lot of attorney's looking for work, but let's not jump the gun on the filing the class action lawsuit just yet. Now, if PSA and SCG keep letting "Joe" submit altered cards and grading them...

Assuming the grading companies are now, or will shortly be made, aware that Joe might be the one messing with the cards and he is submitting under his own name and the grading companies want to stop Joe, they should let him continue to submit so they can look more closely at his submissions. If they cut him off then he will just submit through someone else and they will have to go to greater lengths, which they will not do, to track him down. If they do start rejecting his stuff he will simply start submitting through someone else.

By the way, another great post by Dan Markel who seems to be the smartest guy on this board.

[D.P.Johnson]

Assuming the grading companies are now, or will shortly be made, aware that Joe might be the one messing with the cards and he is submitting under his own name and the grading companies want to stop Joe, they should let him continue to submit so they can look more closely at his submissions. If they cut him off then he will just submit through someone else and they will have to go to greater lengths, which they will not do, to track him down. If they do start rejecting his stuff he will simply start submitting through someone else.

By the way, another great post by Dan Markel who seems to be the smartest guy on this board.

Good points. And, I agree, Dan Markel's posts are awesome...

[pepis]

From PSA's website:

The Advantages of PSA Grading

PSA provides expert analysis and protection for your collectibles. Using state-of-the-art, proprietary methods, the hobby's most astute and knowledgeable grading experts render carefully considered, unbiased third-party opinions of grade. When you see a card/ticket in a holder displaying the PSA logo, you can be confident that the card/ticket has been properly authenticated and graded by the experts at Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA). These are some of the attributes that have made PSA the largest and most respected third-party grading and authentication service in the world.

http://www.psacard.com/About/WhyPSA

I highlighted the word "confident" because the foundation of any con game is confidence. When people like myself have openly complained about doctored cards getting past the graders with credible proof, PSA has taken a very aggressive adversarial position against myself and others such as banning us from their message boards and club memberships and nothing has obviously been done to address the problem.

At what point does proven incompetence with no diligent attempt fix the problem encroach actions of fraud? What about causes of action such as gross negligence for failing to fix a problem that you are aware of or unjust enrichment which is unjustly profiting from fraud? As I've said many times before, you don't have to have purchased a doctored card to be a victim; card doctoring devalues good cards by artificially inflating the supply of the same cards.
Hello Dan,
good points! here is a thread from early this year making similar points
on the problem.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161528&page=2

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Assuming the grading companies are now, or will shortly be made, aware that Joe might be the one messing with the cards and he is submitting under his own name and the grading companies want to stop Joe, they should let him continue to submit so they can look more closely at his submissions. If they cut him off then he will just submit through someone else and they will have to go to greater lengths, which they will not do, to track him down. If they do start rejecting his stuff he will simply start submitting through someone else.

By the way, another great post by Dan Markel who seems to be the smartest guy on this board.

Greg,

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm certain I'm not the smartest one here, but I've definitely been through the School of Hard Knocks on this topic.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Jose and Dan,

Thanks for the props.

That thread that Jose alluded to has been very typical of what many PSA collectors, including myself, came to realize. There really doesn't appear to be much accountability on PSA's part in all of this.

[EvilKing00]

hmmm don't think any one said it yet, so I guess I have to, lol buy the card not the grade, lol.

Anyway just my 2 pennies below.....

I do buy graded cards BUT I buy the card and not its grade. I like buying graded cards because it at least authenticates the card for me. (that is if someone didn't fake the slab, or crack it and replace a fake card)

I am NO EXPERT, and I hope all the graded cards I buy are "REAL" cards. The eye appeal I can judge for my self.

[D.P.Johnson]

hmmm don't think any one said it yet, so I guess I have to, lol buy the card not the grade, lol.

Anyway just my 2 pennies below.....

I do buy graded cards BUT I buy the card and not its grade. I like buying graded cards because it at least authenticates the card for me. (that is if someone didn't fake the slab, or crack it and replace a fake card)

I am NO EXPERT, and I hope all the graded cards I buy are "REAL" cards. The eye appeal I can judge for my self.

Agree. However, the sad thing is, with the way cards are photoshopped and/or manipulated by some seller's nowadays, a buyer can't always tell by a scan exactly what a card truly looks like. Thus, unless a person buys every single card in person, they never know exactly what they're going to get until it arrives in the mail...

[EvilKing00]

Agree. However, the sad thing is, with the way cards are photoshopped and/or manipulated by some seller's nowadays, a buyer can't always tell by a scan exactly what a card truly looks like. Thus, unless a person buys every single card in person, they never know exactly what they're going to get until it arrives in the mail...

agreed, I recently bought a T205, that "looked like the red ink was missing, as the red was DEFF Orange. When I got the card it was RED. Seller took it back though.

[vintagetoppsguy]

This post is somewhat related to the topic at hand. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but felt this was worth mentioning and really didn't want to start another thread to do so, so I just posted it here. Take a look at this '34 Goudey. What once was a PSA 6.5 is now an SGC 8.5.

http://www.memorylaneinc.com/site/images_items/item_20470_1.jpg
http://www.memorylaneinc.com/site/images_items/item_20470_2.jpg

http://www.gregbussineau.com/scans/1293008010_f.jpg
http://www.gregbussineau.com/scans/1293008010_b.jpg

Here are the things to look for:
1.) Faint white "triangle" shape mark on stomach of the silhouette of the ballplayer (on right) in the yellow background.
2.) White dot on left player silhouette in background.
3.) Numerous stray marks between #37 and Lou Gehrig on back of card
4.) Marks below the "h" in Gehrig on the signature on back of card.
5.) Marks below the words "left-handed" on back of card.

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again. I've had several bumps over the years and I realize cards get bumped every day, but nothing like this. I would love to sit down with the grader from PSA and the grader from SGC and ask each one of them what they saw that determined their opinion on the grade of this card. It sickens my stomach that we're paying these "professionals" to give us their opinion, when their opinion can make the difference of thousands of dollars on any given day.

All that said, I don't think this is a Joe P bump. Otherwise, he would have consigned it to Probstein (anything is possible I guess though). I would like to know if Bussineau is the owner of this card or just a consignor and would also love to know who owned it at the time it was bumped from a 6.5 to an 8.5.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

It does appear to be the same card, especially when viewing all the tiny print flaws on the back. The upper right front corner (or upper left rear corner) appears to have gotten noticeably sharper and that same corner has that "batwing" look. Very bothersome indeed.

[GasHouseGang]

I believe the Gehrigs are the same card, but something happened to it between PSA and SGC. The back discoloration seen in the PSA holder is gone as seen in the SGC holder. It's possible that it is because of the scanner setting, but it looks like it has been cleaned.

[Sean1125]

How does this not reflect on the grading companies more than anything?

[bigfanNY]

In April of this year I found at the bottom of a box twelve pieces of what once were a Louisville Slugger Poster from the 1939-1941. I put the pieces together and marveled at nice the poster once looked. I searched online for a person who restored Movie posters. There were many and I narrowed my search down and chose a man named Dario from Vancouver Canada. He said he could restore the piece and it would take eight to ten hours of work. When I got the poster back I took it to a reputable art dealer who dealt in prints to frame and preserve the Poster. You can see the result below. Up close you can see what appear to be folds along the lines he repaired. But from a foot or so away you judge. What was done to this poster can and is done to cards all the time. (Search on Dick Towle) Paper items can and I believe sometimes should be restored and preserved. If it is not it will deteriorate and your grandchildren will be left with dust instead of The history of baseball as it was recorded (In Paper form) for most of it's first 100 or so years. Now for me a baseball card collector for many years I will not even clean the gum or wax off of a card just never did so never will. But others do. In about 1975 I visited the Metropolitan Museum of art and they brought out the Burdick Album with T cards and in there was The Wagner displayed on a stamp hinge so that you could look at the back. I have seen that card later and there is no trace of the hinge. They can and did restore their card. People do and some very rare cards and posters would be lost if they were not restored. BUT ANY ETHICAL SELLER SHOULD ABSOLUTLY ALERT BUYERS TO THE RESTORATION. And any buyer should be aware that this could happen to ANY card and it would be very very difficult to detect. This has been the state of our hobby since the get. And I for one still love this stuff but find it hard to like many of the people who sell this stuff for a living. Alerting each other to folks who are looking to get over is necessary and thank you Vintagetopps guy for spending the time to help the rest of us on this message board.

MHO

Jonathan

[conor912]

In April of this year I found at the bottom of a box twelve pieces of what once were a Louisville Slugger Poster from the 1939-1941. I put the pieces together and marveled at nice the poster once looked. I searched online for a person who restored Movie posters. There were many and I narrowed my search down and chose a man named Dario from Vancouver Canada. He said he could restore the piece and it would take eight to ten hours of work. When I got the poster back I took it to a reputable art dealer who dealt in prints to frame and preserve the Poster. You can see the result below. Up close you can see what appear to be folds along the lines he repaired. But from a foot or so away you judge. What was done to this poster can and is done to cards all the time. (Search on Dick Towle) Paper items can and I believe sometimes should be restored and preserved. If it is not it will deteriorate and your grandchildren will be left with dust instead of The history of baseball as it was recorded (In Paper form) for most of it's first 100 or so years. Now for me a baseball card collector for many years I will not even clean the gum or wax off of a card just never did so never will. But others do. In about 1975 I visited the Metropolitan Museum of art and they brought out the Burdick Album with T cards and in there was The Wagner displayed on a stamp hinge so that you could look at the back. I have seen that card later and there is no trace of the hinge. They can and did restore their card. People do and some very rare cards and posters would be lost if they were not restored. BUT ANY ETHICAL SELLER SHOULD ABSOLUTLY ALERT BUYERS TO THE RESTORATION. And any buyer should be aware that this could happen to ANY card and it would be very very difficult to detect. This has been the state of our hobby since the get. And I for one still love this stuff but find it hard to like many of the people who sell this stuff for a living. Alerting each other to folks who are looking to get over is necessary and thank you Vintagetopps guy for spending the time to help the rest of us on this message board.

MHO

Jonathan

good post

[Wite3]

Not only should the seller make buyers aware, they should not allow shill bidding to take place on those (and really any) items.

Why am I not surprised Rick has not come on. He has defended himself before but now cannot be bothered. Too much evidence? Too much money involved?

Joshua

[egbeachley]

Not only should the seller make buyers aware, they should not allow shill bidding to take place on those (and really any) items.

Why am I not surprised Rick has not come on. He has defended himself before but now cannot be bothered. Too much evidence? Too much money involved?

Joshua

Why? I will tell you why. It may be because this is an "attack first, defend later" Board that refuses to be objective. Rick could have been in a coma for 2 months, wake up today, sue Pankiewicz for the excess profits, give them to the original sellers, and hire 2 more assistants to scour his auctions to look for potential shilling. But he would still be attacked for not having the foresight to hire the assistants before he went into his coma or not knowing that some of his clients are submitting under false names from another state.

Responding to this Board only increases the attacks and if I was Rick I would do the right thing but say nothing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's a bump from a 6.5 to an 8.5 worth?

[Peter_Spaeth]

How does this not reflect on the grading companies more than anything?

Obviously it does not reflect well on them, but it also speaks more fundamentally to the problem of (likely) rampant card doctoring. To some extent, yes, the issue is inconsistent grading and the same cards -- without alteration -- can and do get different grades. I have seen some incredible journeys within a 3 grade range for the same card simply cracked out and resubmitted. But I think more often than not, what's going on with these bumps is that someone has improved the card.

[nsaddict]

Why? I will tell you why. It may be because this is an "attack first, defend later" Board that refuses to be objective. Rick could have been in a coma for 2 months, wake up today, sue Pankiewicz for the excess profits, give them to the original sellers, and hire 2 more assistants to scour his auctions to look for potential shilling. But he would still be attacked for not having the foresight to hire the assistants before he went into his coma or not knowing that some of his clients are submitting under false names from another state.

Responding to this Board only increases the attacks and if I was Rick I would do the right thing but say nothing.

Eric, I would agree with your assumption. However, there is enough info within this thread to say otherwise. It would be in Rick's best interest to address this issue of one individual. This link should open many eyes. He provides links to past auctions making it look like they're his auctions that lead to Probstein. Ok, let's assume Joe is the consignor, click on the 1961 Topps baseball set. The 3rd highest bidder with a fb of 9622, aka pank21 is Joe P. In older links at the bottom he even says "check out ebay seller pank21" What does this tell us??


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Joseph-Pankiewicz-Sportscards/118125758251089

[D.P.Johnson]

Eric, I would agree with your assumption. However, there is enough info within this thread to say otherwise. It would be in Rick's best interest to address this issue of one individual. This link should open many eyes. He provides links to past auctions making it look like they're his auctions that lead to Probstein. Ok, let's assume Joe is the consignor, click on the 1961 Topps baseball set. The 3rd highest bidder with a fb of 9622, aka pank21 is Joe P. In older links at the bottom he even says "check out ebay seller pank21" What does this tell us??


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Joseph-Pankiewicz-Sportscards/118125758251089

Agree. And, it could also become a bigger issue for Rick if he continues to willingly accept consignments from "Joe" knowing "Joe" has shill bid and submitted altered items in the past. A jury probably won't be kind to him. Then again, it's Rick's life and business, he can do whatever he wants with it...

[vintagetoppsguy]

This card is the subject of a thread over on CU (I wonder how long that thread will last). Not one corner is deserving of an 8 (especially the bottom two - left in particular) and this card probably should have been a 6. Somebody will buy it though because of that "8" on the flip, not really caring what the card itself looks like.

Hey, Panky, I know you read the boards. You ought to buy this one and turn it into a 9. :D

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1959-TOPPS-BASEBALL-150-STAN-MUSIAL-PSA-8-HOF-/00/s/MTA5MFg2Mzc=/z/oZoAAOxymspSEmZG/$(KGrHqV,!okFI!4v2tqSBSEmZFsNVQ~~60_57.JPG

[howard38]

/

[atx840]

http://i.imgur.com/mqG9z0s.gif

[nsaddict]

Nice profit for pank...hey buys the 7, resubmits and receives an 8. Same card for sure!


http://tinyurl.com/mqoyxfg

[ullmandds]

nice comparo Chris!!!!!

the rt border is dramatically thinner!

[vintagetoppsguy]

I get nervous enough cracking out a card to resubmit for the fear of it coming back a lower grade (or even trimmed). Who would crack out a card worth several hundred dollars, altar it and then try to resubmit it, unless that person already knew that they didn't have anything to worry about - that it would receive a numeric grade? There’s a lot of risk involved there – unless there really is no risk at all.

[frankbmd]

In my professional opinion this thread gives a whole new meaning to the definition of "Plastic Surgery".

[botn]

nice comparo Chris!!!!!

the rt border is dramatically thinner!

Indeed so..and the bottom border too. Assuming they are the same cards either someone has the ability to mimic factory cuts or SGC missed the boat. With that much of the card gone I cannot imagine it measures properly. Either way it is way too expensive a card to be in anyone's holder.

I understand the FBI is sitting on bidder records from many of the auction houses. Seems like a fairly easy job for someone to start identifying purchases and consignments and matching up before and after pics. One 40K card does not warrant an investigation but it is pretty easy to see how you can get up in to the millions of dollars of fraud. It has always been my opinion that the amount of money taken from collectors in this manner far exceeds what has been taken via shill bidding.

Here is a side by side pic of the two cards...

[conor912]

What's a bump from a 6.5 to an 8.5 worth?

I'd say somewhere in the $15k range, maybe more. A good day at the office, that's for sure.

[4815162342]

So David, do you still say that "anybody that can look at a thread like this and still submit cards to PSA has absolutely no moral conscience"? Or do you now see that SGC is also capable of making mistakes. Good fraudsters seem to be able to take advantage of both companies.

[ullmandds]

I'm just wondering if this Joey P...who supposedly "used" to work for SGC...has an inside connection there...who is upgrading these submissions. So mistakes weren't/arent bring made...maybe this is intentional?

[conor912]

So David, do you still say that "anybody that can look at a thread like this and still submit cards to PSA has absolutely no moral conscience"? Or do you now see that SGC is also capable of making mistakes. Good fraudsters seem to be able to take advantage of both companies.

It does beg the question, why the crossover if PSA brings consistently higher sale prices? Assuming this card had an equal chance of making it past either company, why go to SGC and not back to PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I get nervous enough cracking out a card to resubmit for the fear of it coming back a lower grade (or even trimmed). Who would crack out a card worth several hundred dollars, altar it and then try to resubmit it, unless that person already knew that they didn't have anything to worry about - that it would receive a numeric grade? There’s a lot of risk involved there – unless there really is no risk at all.

How could you have no risk? Unless you owned the grading service or had an in, I suppose.

[vintagetoppsguy]

So David, do you still say that "anybody that can look at a thread like this and still submit cards to PSA has absolutely no moral conscience"? Or do you now see that SGC is also capable of making mistakes. Good fraudsters seem to be able to take advantage of both companies.

Daryl,

I'm not so sure they're mistakes. To answer your question very honestly, I will have to strongly consider if I ever submit another card to any grading company. My last SGC submission consisted of about 15 E92 Dockmans. 2 came back as EOT (which I'm pretty they're not), one came back as minimum size requirement not met and another was a PSA 4 that would not cross over. So, I'm led to believe they can detect trimming on $50 E92 common, but they can't detect trimming on a $25K+ Gehrig? Horse crap! Those two Gehrigs are definitely the same card and it has definitely been trimmed.

David

Edited to add a side-by-side scan of the back of the Gehrigs. I circled all the print marks on the PSA card and they are the same on the SGC card. The SGC was scanned with brighter settings, but still the same card, only TRIMMED.

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

This thread finally convinced me to become a member of the Forum.

Thanks for posting. Keep up the good work.

Robert L Rumcik
o.c.trading

[Peter_Spaeth]

A well-centered 6 (or raw EX MT) card is the ideal purchase for a card doctor.

[steve B]

In April of this year I found at the bottom of a box twelve pieces of what once were a Louisville Slugger Poster from the 1939-1941. I put the pieces together and marveled at nice the poster once looked. I searched online for a person who restored Movie posters. There were many and I narrowed my search down and chose a man named Dario from Vancouver Canada. He said he could restore the piece and it would take eight to ten hours of work. When I got the poster back I took it to a reputable art dealer who dealt in prints to frame and preserve the Poster. You can see the result below. Up close you can see what appear to be folds along the lines he repaired. But from a foot or so away you judge. What was done to this poster can and is done to cards all the time. (Search on Dick Towle) Paper items can and I believe sometimes should be restored and preserved. If it is not it will deteriorate and your grandchildren will be left with dust instead of The history of baseball as it was recorded (In Paper form) for most of it's first 100 or so years. Now for me a baseball card collector for many years I will not even clean the gum or wax off of a card just never did so never will. But others do. In about 1975 I visited the Metropolitan Museum of art and they brought out the Burdick Album with T cards and in there was The Wagner displayed on a stamp hinge so that you could look at the back. I have seen that card later and there is no trace of the hinge. They can and did restore their card. People do and some very rare cards and posters would be lost if they were not restored. BUT ANY ETHICAL SELLER SHOULD ABSOLUTLY ALERT BUYERS TO THE RESTORATION. And any buyer should be aware that this could happen to ANY card and it would be very very difficult to detect. This has been the state of our hobby since the get. And I for one still love this stuff but find it hard to like many of the people who sell this stuff for a living. Alerting each other to folks who are looking to get over is necessary and thank you Vintagetopps guy for spending the time to help the rest of us on this message board.

MHO

Jonathan

Stamp hinges are designed to be removable. The adhesive is water activated, so it damages the gum on unused stamps, but the adhesive will usually come off a used stamp without leaving any trace it was there. Some are better than others, and the Met would have known which were the best.

Steve B

[WhenItWasAHobby]

http://i.imgur.com/mqG9z0s.gif

That's a terrific before and after comparison! Thanks for posting that.

Has the SGC Gehrig been sold? If so, that promises be a rather stiff buy-back if the buyer is aware of the problem and pursues that route. One would think that losing $10K or $15K on a card should hopefully change the way the grading company screens cards and screens submitters.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan, yours for the asking.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321179871436

[steve B]

If the Gherig had simply been cleaned I think that would have been ok. A light surface cleaning is acceptable in nearly every field, as the dirt will eventually cause damage.

At first I had a few doubts that the two were the same. The various marks are all from the production process, and I wouldn't be surprised to see two nearly identical cards. But thinking about it, the circumstances that would lead to there being two nearly identical Goudeys in that condition would be unlikely.

One of the things that made me think they were the same was the slight diamond cut, especially of the lower border.
It's odd that someone would retain that diamond cut while trimming.

But if it was done on a factory type cutter, The edges would remaim paralell, so the diamond cut would remain. And the cuts would be almost impossible to tell from factory.

Perhaps this is what will get TPG to look at things in more detail and for a bit longer.

Steve B

[Leon]

Dan, yours for the asking.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321179871436

I am starting to more understand why some companies might not want to advertise where many of their customers are (here).

[Gobucsmagic74]

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

[Gobucsmagic74]

If the Gherig had simply been cleaned I think that would have been ok. A light surface cleaning is acceptable in nearly every field, as the dirt will eventually cause damage.

At first I had a few doubts that the two were the same. The various marks are all from the production process, and I wouldn't be surprised to see two nearly identical cards. But thinking about it, the circumstances that would lead to there being two nearly identical Goudeys in that condition would be unlikely.

One of the things that made me think they were the same was the slight diamond cut, especially of the lower border.
It's odd that someone would retain that diamond cut while trimming.

But if it was done on a factory type cutter, The edges would remaim paralell, so the diamond cut would remain. And the cuts would be almost impossible to tell from factory.

Perhaps this is what will get TPG to look at things in more detail and for a bit longer.

Steve B

Much more concerned about a clearly trimmed card receiving a numeric grade than the light surface cleaning not being detected as I'm sure most, yourself included, probably are.

[D.P.Johnson]

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

Also, does anyone know who the original purchaser of the PSA card was???

[Peter_Spaeth]

Also, does anyone know who the original purchaser of the PSA card was???

Last I checked auction houses don't tell who won their cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

Greg has been in the card business since the 80s, I believe. I am sure he can form his own judgments.

[atx840]

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

Yes.

Makes me re-think this guy. ;)

http://i.imgur.com/YhFgIyj.jpg

[D.P.Johnson]

Last I checked auction houses don't tell who won their cards.

I was able to figure out who won the other altered Gehrigs...

[D.P.Johnson]

Greg has been in the card business since the 80s, I believe. I am sure he can form his own judgments.

I guess now would be a good time for Greg to accept a low-ball offer on the card...I mean, I hope he wouldn't knowlingly sell an altered item on ebay...

[Cardboard Junkie]

40K for a trimmed iron horse........2.8 mil for a trimmed wagz.....I just can't believe the tpg's don't KNOW these cards are trimmed! There is something fishy in Denmark! Dave. ps The silence of the tpg's and of certain members here is deafening, and speaks volumes.

[T206Collector]

Why does the card look more heavily cut on the back of the "flashing" Gehrigs than the front? It's because the back scan of the SGC version is slightly smaller than the back scan of the PSA version. That's why the lettering moves a little, too.

While I find all of the evidence of cleaning/brightening persuasive, let's be a little cautious about relying on two scans of purportedly the same card under different conditions.

My guess is that SGC did not miss an obvious trim on the Gehrig. For instance, the SGC insert appears to fit snugly -- more so than the PSA holder does.

I took the same back scan of the SGC Gehrig, and then magnified one slightly below. Note how the eye picks up the difference in the bottom border much more easily than anything else.

[thehoodedcoder]

Bring on the hammer.

kevin

[atx840]

http://i.imgur.com/EwFx8NS.gif

[T206Collector]

http://i.imgur.com/EwFx8NS.gif

I am guessing that you are saying the only thing changing are the borders, but the letters also change in size/shape, particularly as you get closer to the bottom of the card. This is the same card, but they are not the same size scan, obviously; not the same scanner.

I'm going to stick with my vote that SGC didn't miss a trim. Again, why is the PSA version loose in the slab, but the SGC version is snug? Did SGC miss a two-border trim so badly that they decided to also manufacture a smaller insert for this 1934 Goudey?

[thehoodedcoder]

i think the text changes you are seeing is an optical illusion where the color changing from lighter to darker actually makes the illusion that the text inside of the color change appear to change in size. you can hover your mouse of the image at singular point and compare whether that point moves from your mouse image or not....it doesn't. the only thing that does is the left edge and bottom edge of the card. they move dispropritiantly to each other.

for instance...choose the words big league and put your mouse right on the bottom of a letter.notice how the letters don't go behind your mouse. then notice how much the edge of the card changes at the bottom of the card....

another example is the circle in the bottom right corner, that doesn't move but the edge moves dramatically. that is not possible when dealing with a scaling issue.


someone should be able to take the scans, use a measuremeant of a letter word or what have you, on the card to do a determination of the exact size of each card in comparison to that in number of pixels.

kevin

[vintagetoppsguy]

This is Greg's side by side scan of the two cards. The right and bottom border on the SGC card are definitely thinner than the PSA card. It's easy to tell that they're the same card and also easy to tell that it was trimmed before it found it's way into the SGC holder.

[T206Collector]

i think the text changes you are seeing is an optical illusion where the color changing from lighter to darker actually makes the illusion that the text inside of the color change appear to change in size. you can hover your mouse of the image at singular point and compare whether that point moves from your mouse image or not....it doesn't. the only thing that does is the left edge of the card.

kevin

Not so. Put your mouse in the middle of the "I" in "BIG". The "I" grows and shrinks. In my view, the optical illusion is that you don't think the letters are moving.

[T206Collector]

This is Greg's side by side scan of the two cards. The right and bottom border on the SGC card are definitely thinner than the PSA card. It's easy to tell that they're the same card and also easy to tell that it was trimmed before it found it's way into the SGC holder.

Disagree. SGC holders are actually taller and wider than PSA holders. In your picture they look the same size.

This is a slightly smaller scan of the same card.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Dan, yours for the asking.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321179871436

Thanks for the info Peter.

Actually someone just informed me that:

Sold at

Memorylane (id #20470) 5/6/11..

then sold Goodwinandco (id #23561) 6/21/12 for $7,299.46.

What's still not known is who was the buyer from Goodwin and submitter to SGC since it's possible that its currently a consignment item.

[D.P.Johnson]

There's no way Greg is going to take the chance that the buyer of this altered card is going to come here and read this information after they have purchased the card...I mean, whoever buys this card from Greg is going to be notified they've bought an altered card, right???...........right...........

[ullmandds]

I have a feeling that when this is all said and done...if ever...there will be a lot of surprising names implicated...thereby showing that corruption is more the rule...than the exception in the hobby.

[D.P.Johnson]

Oops...spoke too soon...Greg removed the card...Then again, do I win a dollar or a donut???...

[Cardboard Junkie]

I have a feeling that when this is all said and done...if ever...there will be a lot of surprising names implicated...thereby showing that corruption is more the rule...than the exception in the hobby.

+1 I couldn't agree more. Dave.

[4815162342]

Disagree. SGC holders are actually taller and wider than PSA holders. In your picture they look the same size.

This is a slightly smaller scan of the same card.

If you're right (no trim, only an optical illusion), then how do you explain the grade bump?

[atx840]

"Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. My company purchased this card several months ago, already graded NM/MT+ 92 by SGC, in the holder in which it currently resides. I am sending the card back into SGC for them to review. Pending that review, we are removing the card from our inventory for sale listings.

Thanks again,

Greg"

[t206hound]

This reads better than reality television for sure. Will there be a "Card Detectives" series in our future? It would beat the heck out of the drivel I watch late at night!

[T206Collector]

Based on all of the evidence that has been presented here, I am persuaded that there is somebody cleaning cards with something other than bleach or another substance that would be detectable to SGC. Call it "super water" or what have you. That would certainly cause a bump in grade. A card does not have long to travel from a 6.5 to an 8.5. It's not like turning a 1 to a 3, or even a 3 to a 5. One of the reasons I don't care much for high grade cards is that once you've given me a 7, or even a 6, I'm pretty content that I'm holding a card that is, for me, mint (or at least mint enough).

My problems with the Gehrig trim theory are thus:

1. I do not think SGC would miss a trim that it is suggested here would have affected two or more of the borders, let alone on such a high dollar card. Nor do I believe SGC is involved in a conspiracy to overlook such a trim, particularly on such a high dollar card that is likely to draw some attention. So, I approach the accusation of this trim from a very suspicious perspective to begin with. If it was PSA, I would be more willing to buy into such ignorance or worse.

2. The SGC insert fits more snug than the PSA insert. While I appreciate that SGC has the ability to customize its inserts, my understanding is that they would not purposely make a smaller one here and, at the same time, miss a double-sided+ trim.

3. The side-by-side flashing scans are very persuasive until you realize that distortion is possible with just a slight difference in size. On the two back scans of the same card I posted above, one was 100% and the other was just 102% in my MSPaint Program. Also, it seems like all 4 corners get sharper in the move to the SGC holder - were 3+ borders trimmed? Finally, if a bottom and a side look more trimmed in one image than another, that can be explained by a smaller scan being dropped on top of a larger scan, where both are lined up at the top left corner.


Having said all of this, could I be persuaded that SGC got tricked on this one? Yes, I guess so. But I do not think the side-by-side scans get me there.

[T206Collector]

"Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. My company purchased this card several months ago, already graded NM/MT+ 92 by SGC, in the holder in which it currently resides. I am sending the card back into SGC for them to review. Pending that review, we are removing the card from our inventory for sale listings.

Thanks again,

Greg"

I'm sure we're all very curious to see what SGC thinks of this one!

[Gobucsmagic74]

I guess now would be a good time for Greg to accept a low-ball offer on the card...I mean, I hope he wouldn't knowlingly sell an altered item on ebay...

That was kind of what I was getting at.

[Iron Horse]

It's sad to see this crap. I hope the people behind this crap are fined and or jailed. It is ruining the hobby. Someone took a beautiful Gehrig card and ruined it for $$$$. Who knows what % of high grade cards out there are in the same boat. If we don't have people doing this amazing detective work no one would even know. Well, most will not know.
It truly saddens me to see this crap.
I am sure there are people on this board that can possibly bring this up to the proper authorities i hope.
Greed, greed and more greed :mad:

[Leon]

It's sad to see this crap. I hope the people behind this crap are fined and or jailed. It is ruining the hobby. Someone took a beautiful Gehrig card and ruined it for $$$$. Who knows what % of high grade cards out there are in the same boat. If we don't have people doing this amazing detective work no one would even know. Well, most will not know.
It truly saddens me to see this crap.
I am sure there are people on this board that can possibly bring this up to the proper authorities i hope.
Greed, greed and more greed :mad:

The authorities read this board. Some of these things are very difficult if not impossible to prosecute. It's too bad too.

[pepis]

The authorities read this board. Some of these things are very difficult if not impossible to prosecute. It's too bad too.

Absolutely Leon,
i provided incredibly clear proof to the authorities in my case, and all they suggested is that i go public! meanwhile the star pack grading debacle gets
worst every week.

[Iron Horse]

"The authorities read this board. Some of these things are very difficult if not impossible to prosecute. It's too bad too."

Hi Leon,
Why is it hard to prosecute when one can trace who bought from who in most of these cases???
If anyone else from our readers who is in a position to have something done wants to post or pm me I would love to hear from you.
If this crap can be traced then I am sure a little pressure will make them sing like they never have.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Who knows what % of high grade cards out there are in the same boat.

Or midgrade cards, or the cards in YOUR collection :)

[CW]

Not so. Put your mouse in the middle of the "I" in "BIG". The "I" grows and shrinks. In my view, the optical illusion is that you don't think the letters are moving.

This is occuring because one "I" is slightly blurrier than the other (or one is sharper than the other, to put it another way). This makes it appear to grow and shrink, yes, but compare that to how much the bottom border grows and shrinks. It is not proportionate.

If you do indeed believe that those cards are one and the same, I do not understand how you cannot see the SGC graded version of this card has a smaller (ie. trimmed) right and bottom border (when viewed from front).

Again, why is the PSA version loose in the slab, but the SGC version is snug?

That card did not look loose in the PSA slab. It looks pretty snug in the PSA holder, which is most likely why it was targeted for the trim job. In the PSA slab, the right and bottom edges are touching the insert. The top and left edges have a very slight gap between them and the insert. I've seen loose cards in PSA holders, but that Gehrig is was not one of them, imo.

The SGC inserts, as you've mentioned, can be custom cut, so I don't think we can draw any conclusions by looking at how it fits in the SGC slab.

Nothing personal, obviously, but this one looks clear cut. (intended ;) )

€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

[Peter_Spaeth]

A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.

[vintagetoppsguy]

A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.

Simon & Garfunkel. What did I win?

[T206Collector]

Nothing personal, obviously, but this one looks clear cut. (intended ;) )

€hû¢k Wölƒƒ

Oh, I don't take it personal. I just happen to see something you don't, like you see something I don't.

I do not believe SGC would miss a double/triple trim on such a high grade and valuable card. Are they human? Yes. But, very very unlikely. It is much more likely that the images of two scans of what is likely the same card graded by two different graders is creating the illusion of funny business. And, frankly, I see enough weirdness in the flashing Gehrigs to suggest as much.

Hopefully what SGC does here going forward will be made public. I think it is possible or even probable they bang the card for being tampered with. But, I still don't think the card has been trimmed, let alone on two or three borders.

I know lots of people distrust the men behind the curtain at the TPG. But, I have a lot of reasons to have confidence in their integrity based on my experiences with them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Simon & Garfunkel. What did I win?

A trimmed, bleached, recolored, pressed card in a TPG slab of your choice.

[Iron Horse]

Can anyone explain why it would be difficult to trace things?
If baseball can try to clean up the game. Perhaps we should try to clean up our hobby.
Hope something comes of all these conversations, investigations and facts.

[Iron Horse]

Leon,
Can you please explain why it would be hard to prosecute?
Hope you can shed some light to this.
Thx

[Eric72]

A class action lawsuit sounds like a great idea. I just have four questions for you and I'll get right to work on it. Who should be our named plaintiff? How should we define the class? Who should we sue? And what should we sue them for?

Peter,

The similarly situated plaintiffs should be lining up.

Best,

Eric

[D.P.Johnson]

Can anyone explain why it would be difficult to trace things?
If baseball can try to clean up the game. Perhaps we should try to clean up our hobby.
Hope something comes of all these conversations, investigations and facts.

I don't think it's necessarily difficult to trace the items and/or prosecute someone for altering them; I think it has more to do with the priorities of the D.A.'s and/or A.G.'s...For the most part, D.A.'s and/or A.G.'s focus on crimes that have a higher profile...They're understaffed, overworked, etc, etc...Crimes like this get put on the backburner...Like I mentioned before, I think if an intern or some other lower level investigator took an interest in something like this and did a lot of the leg work, then something might get done...Other than that, it would take someone "important" to get burned for a lot of money in a major transaction before a D.A. or A.G. would take any interest...(Hope that makes sense...)...

[PolarBear]

Leon,
Can you please explain why it would be hard to prosecute?
Hope you can shed some light to this.
Thx


I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.

To answer your question though, it's "hard" because of the amount of work that would have to go into the investigation. I doubt the "authorities" consider ripping off a few G's from some collector's disposable income worth their time.

[Edwolf1963]

A trimmed, bleached, recolored, pressed card in a TPG slab of your choice.

Graded 8.5 from Joe Whateverhisnameis' Collection

[atx840]

I doubt the "authorities" consider ripping off a few G's from some collector's disposable income worth their time.

I've had the Department of Homeland Security pm & email about questionable cards I've spotted on here...it happens.

[PolarBear]

I've had the Department of Homeland Security pm & email about questionable cards I've spotted on here...it happens.

I'm not saying that didn't happen but wow, really? Sports cards are a matter of "homeland security? :rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've had the Department of Homeland Security pm & email about questionable cards I've spotted on here...it happens.

Do they collect scrap and freaks? :D

[atx840]

I am Canadian after all...they have to keep a close eye on us.

[Leon]

I'm a bit incredulous to hear the "authorities" read these forums.



Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.

[Leon]

I don't agree necessarily, Leon. A couple of people are convinced to talk and it starts tumbling down.


What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

[PolarBear]

Ignorance is bliss. They read it every single day...and more than one of them. Believe it or not, I am sure of it. I have personally spoken to the Secret Service, FBI, Postal Inspectors, Dept. Of Homeland Security, as well as local authorities in different areas, concerning the hobby and what goes on, on this board. Not this year, but the last 2-3 years the FBI had come to the Net54baseball Dinner at the National. It is always my pleasure to have them there. They were supposed to be there this year but couldn't make it at the last minute. We all should be very appreciative of them, especially the FBI.

As for prosecuting some of these things it's just too complicated as to why they have a tough time doing it but it is difficult. Even when there seemed to be an open and shut case with one of our board members against a known fraudster (trimmer), at the 12th hour, he had to let most of it go. All we can do is make things public and each try to do our part to keep the hobby as clean as we can.


I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What does that mean? What comes tumbling down?

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

[Leon]

I'm not saying it never happened, it's just hard to believe. Especially considering the apparent zero impact their effort has had, in bringing anyone engaging fraud, to justice.

When we have stories detailing the people who engage in fraud being brought justice, then I'll be impressed.

In the meantime, it just seems like wasted effort by "authorities" who have too much free time on their hands, reading internet sports card forums.

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.

[Leon]

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

Unfortunately I agree with most of this..

[PolarBear]

So the 20 or so current Federal Indictments of people in the hobby don't count? Oh, and it's not that it happened (as for them reading the board and being in the hobby), it's still going on.


I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

[RCMcKenzie]

When y'all said "authorities", I thought y'all were speaking about Mr. Lemke and Barry. The earliest memories I have of buying baseball cards are flea market dealers telling me that their ex/mt Ricky Henderson rookie card is in mint condition.

[D.P.Johnson]

As in many other criminal enterprises, you need witnesses who will talk. I agree it's hard to prove based on physical evidence with a reasonable doubt standard. But if you get people to break the conspiracy of silence, there is a chance. These people all talk to each other and know what each other are up to.

This is EXACTLY what it will take to break this whole thing wide open. You have to bust one of the lower level minions, put the fear of God in them to get them talking, set up a sting...bingo, bango, bongo...

[D.P.Johnson]

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

Yes, it goes in about 7 year cycles. We're overdue for a good housecleaning...

[Leon]

I'll admit, I don't necessarily know everything that's going on. I'm just giving you my perception. Indictments aren't convictions though, so we'll see.

Have there been any convictions of sports card (or hobby in general) fraud that I'm not aware of?

What are you aware of? The cases I have been closest to are still in court but are getting closer. And there is almost a 100% chance there will be a/some convictions. Mastro tried to plea for 30 months and the judge wouldn't accept it at the time...this was several months ago. That case is still going on and I think a few others are sort of hinging on what happens there. I wouldn't be surprised if some more things happen too.

[Roofman4]

Very interesting thread. How does someone protect themselves from getting on the "hook" for altered / trimmed / restored cards? If you buy online, your taking your chances...correct? Would you attend shows and buy in person knowing you have the ability to closely inspect and measure the cards? I know I saw this topic in another thread, asking for the more experienced collectors to educate us novice guys. I'm all ears...

[PolarBear]

It's funny to me how similar this discussion is to the coin hobby, which I was part of for many years (years ago).

There are "coin doctors", who are apparently known in the hobby to many prominent people. However, no one seems to want to say who they are, or even if they do, and although the "authorities" seem to be on the case, no one ever seems to be brought to justice.

So again, it's nice to know the "authorities" are actively involved, but I'm skeptical that anything will actually be done about it.

The sports card hobby is about 20 years behind the coin hobby, and if the outcomes are the same, then don't expect anything meaningful to be done by the "authorities".

Education and Caveat Emptor are your best defense.

[Leon]

It's funny to me how similar this discussion is to the coin hobby, which I was part of for many years (years ago).

There are "coin doctors", who are apparently known in the hobby to many prominent people. However, no one seems to want to say who they are, or even if they do, and although the "authorities" seem to be on the case, no one ever seems to be brought to justice.

So again, it's nice to know the "authorities" are actively involved, but I'm skeptical that anything will actually be done about it.

The sports card hobby is about 20 years behind the coin hobby, and if the outcomes are the same, then don't expect anything meaningful to be done by the "authorities".

Education and Caveat Emptor are your best defense.

You and Peter are correct. It's difficult ....

[slipk1068]

You all know the crooks are monitoring this site. They should be scared with the intense way you folks are investigating this stuff. Thank you for doing all you can to protect the hobby we love.

[drcy]

A difference between the coin hobby and the baseball hobby is baseball memorabilia collectors usually have baseball bats.

[slipk1068]

I am sure I will get slammed for this, but tell me what you think of this scenario:

Someone from Grading Company X is at the National in year 20xx and he meets someone from Grading Company Y at the bar. They both have close friends at their jobs. They get to talking and come up with an plan.

They keep a list of the serial numbers of some high end cards that they intentionally undergrade and are candidates for doctoring. Maybe they graded a Goudey Ruth a 6 that should have been a 7. Now, they have someone monitor auctions. If a card on their list comes to auction, someone they know buys it. It gets doctored and magically becomes an 8. It is an 8 because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GRADE IT! They undergraded it originally, purchase it, doctor it, grade it a second time, then consign it.

Someone doctoring cards can make some money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at a grading company and they can all make a lot of money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at 2 grading companies and they can all make a fortune.

I have seen a lot of talk in this thread about card doctoring, some talk about incompetent graders, but what about collusion? Now, all you TPG defenders can start commenting on how whacky my conspiracy theory is.

[drcy]

But seriously, the word is 'provenance.' As in, "At the very least show me where you bought the card." Presumably an owner didn't purchase the card sight unseen. There was a scan and a description from before he owned it. At the very least. This is the computer age.

If someone offered you a Picasso painting, you'd say "Where'd you get that?" But many graded card collectors often don't care that a PSA 10 seemingly popped out of nowhere. They seem to have no interest in knowing, in asking, or even thinking about, where the card came from, what it looked like when the current owner bought it.

Would this simple provenance inquiry be a panacea to all ills? No. Would it be relevant to the cards talked about here? Obviously. It's shown in action when you post the before photos. The problem is it should have been the purchasers who are asking about the history. And I would suggest also the graders.

[barrysloate]

So I was speaking to a hobby buddy of mine yesterday, who reads this board (but doesn't post) and he asked a really provocative question: given how much bad stuff is out there, given that many card doctors are staying at least one step ahead of the graders, why are people still sinking such incredible amounts of money into this stuff?

And I need a better answer than stuff trumps all. Sure, good stuff may trump all, but nobody wants to sink money into trimmed, altered, and counterfeit material. Is it that only a small percentage of collectors know about this? Is it they trust TPG implicitly? Are they turning a blind eye? Do they believe that only the other guy's stuff is bad and they own only unadulterated material?

You would think that if this information was widely circulated, the market should collapse. And yet we regularly see enormous sums of money being spent on this high grade material. I'm sure somebody can figure this out.

My answer is that as long as the label reads "8", it's an "8." Case closed. But I think it's more than that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry there are all sorts of rationalizations people give for themselves.

1. I am careful, I can avoid or minimize the problem. (mine)
2. It doesn't affect what I collect.
3. The problem isn't nearly as widespread as the conspiracy theorists claim.
4. It's all speculation, there is no proof.
5. TPGs do well by my submissions therefore I trust them.
6. I don't believe the conspiracy theories about inside jobs, favoritism, etc.
7. If it's in a holder it has a defined value so what difference does it make anyhow.
8. I just want to enjoy my hobby so I choose to avoid all the negativity.

[bobbyw8469]

They keep a list of the serial numbers of some high end cards that they intentionally undergrade and are candidates for doctoring. Maybe they graded a Goudey Ruth a 6 that should have been a 7. Now, they have someone monitor auctions. If a card on their list comes to auction, someone they know buys it. It gets doctored and magically becomes an 8. It is an 8 because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GRADE IT! They undergraded it originally, purchase it, doctor it, grade it a second time, then consign it.


I have privately thought this as well. I have had cards come back real head scratchers on subs I did several years ago. One or two cards per sub would grade really low for the condition. Then when they started doling out half grades, I have had cards come back with the half grades when they should have been shoo-in's for at MINIMUM the next grade up. That made me think that maybe the half grades on cards were red flags for the graders to look at for undergraded cards. My last sub in particular, every single card seemed at least one grade too low. That being said, I believe this is a very plausible theory.

[barrysloate]

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

People are not going to stop buying cards, for the reasons listed above, and others, and perhaps more importantly that many buyers aren't aware of the issue. The only thing that has potential to stop it in my opinion is the criminal justice system.

[barrysloate]

But the criminal justice system doesn't seem to want to get involved.

[D.P.Johnson]

But the criminal justice system doesn't seem to want to get involved.

L.E. would get involved if enough people made a ruckus. They couldn't simply ignore it. It sounds like Leon has contact information for a lot of these people. All of these "contacts" have email addresses, telephone #'s, etc. where they can EASILY be contacted. Just because L.E. may occassionally monitor the board, doesn't mean they're necessarilly reading all of the threads. Thus, when one of these forgery and/or alteration issues shows up on here, someone could contact L.E. and point them in the direction of the appropriate thread.

[T206Collector]

I stopped buying PSA product of any value when I started getting trimmed cards back in holders. About 10 years ago I sent 40 PSA T206 cards graded 4-6 to be crossed over by SGC. SGC graded 30 of them, but refused to grade 10, because of minimum grade or trimming. That was a huge eye opener for me.

I live close to Parsippany, and since then I have met the good folks at SGC, including the graders, many many times. I think I would have more reservation about them if I didn't know them a little and how their process works. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they have had the same 2-3 graders behind the curtain for the past decade or more. One of those guys is Bob Luce. I have had countless conversations with him at shows and at their shop about grading standards, and my concerns. These kinds of conversations go a long way toward providing confidence in their product.

My view is if you have doubts and concerns, pick up the phone. Ask to speak to someone at SGC. They will talk to you. Their customer service is excellent. Go to a show and meet the graders. It goes a long way toward providing the comfort so many are seeking.

One of my very first posts on the original Net54 about 10 years ago was about how it didn't matter what a card's actual grade was, but instead it was just what PSA said it was. The holder makes the card a liquid asset. People treat PSA graded cards like stock or currency. You know in the back of your head that the system has all sorts of issues, but it's like a pyramid scheme. Everyone is happy to be in the scheme when they're making money, but you had better have some independent confidence about your collectible if the system ever crashes.

We're going on 20ish years of this system and none of these complaints are new. Heck, it is accepted fact that the most valuable card in the world is a PSA slabbed trim job. But as long as people treat the holder as a liquid asset, then it doesn't matter if your collectible isn't what you think it is. And as long as PSA is the perceived industry standard, the system will live on.

Collectors, particularly in the internet age, will always need a third party to certify to the buyer that what the seller is selling is pretty close to what he says it is. Like buying a house, you will want to have an inspection. But the inspector may miss something. Or the inspector may be a criminal. In the end, you do the best you can do with the information that is available and make as informed a choice as possible. It's pretty much like anything in life.

[vintagetoppsguy]

My answer is that as long as the label reads "8", it's an "8." Case closed. But I think it's more than that.

Barry, I think you're right, but I don't think there is more than that. I think we try to overthink things and complicate them looking for answers. The top dogs on the set registry don't care about cards, they care about being number one. They'll take a crappy 9 over a high end 8 any day because they're jockeying for position on the registry.

Take this '57 Drysdale below that ended on eBay last night. It sold for $7100 which I believe to be a record (didn't verify that though). Now, look at the back. Do you really think that deserves a 9? Do you really think the guy that purchased it even cares about the back (or even looked at it before he bought it for that matter)? No, he only cares about what the flip says.

Do you think the buyer of that card would have given even $100 for the same card if it resided in a PSA 6 holder? No, because it’s not about the card, it’s about the flip and it wouldn't help him on the registry. That PSA 9 Drysdale will help that buyer on the registry and that’s all that matters to him. You're right, as long is the label reads “8” (or whatever number they buyer is looking for), then the card is that number in his mind.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-18-Don-Drysdale-Rookie-RC-HOF-Dodgers-PSA-9-MINT-Dead-Centered-/370881619106?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item565a4464a2#ht_950wt_1042

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1957-Topps-18-Don-Drysdale-Rookie-RC-HOF-Dodgers-PSA-9-MINT-Dead-Centered-/00/s/MTU4MFg5MzU=/z/FW4AAOxy-NVSE6SN/$(KGrHqVHJBkFH)1g-V0NBSE6SMs5Ig~~60_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1957-Topps-18-Don-Drysdale-Rookie-RC-HOF-Dodgers-PSA-9-MINT-Dead-Centered-/00/s/MTU4MFg5MzU=/z/ZUoAAOxySFJSE6Si/$T2eC16ZHJIcFHN-V849fBSE6ShSdu!~~60_57.JPG

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

How true and there lies the problem: the vast majority of the collectors either accept it and live with it and continue to spend a lot of money, while others deny there's even a problem.

I tried very hard to get at least 4 law enforcement agencies involved and there a lot of legal hurdles. One big problem is that people outside of the hobby just don't feel the weight of the problem since there aren't any industry standards of what constitutes card doctoring as fraud as opposed to "acceptable" cleaning or repairing such as flattening bent corners or removing wrinkles. The coin industry tried to roundup a bunch of coin doctors several years back and ran into this same type of problem.

But like anything if there is a strong commitment, law enforcement can do something about it and something needs be done since it pretty much goes unchecked and all indications are that it is widespread among a significant number of dealers and there's no doubt its a multimillion dollar industry. If several of these miscreants go down hard, I'm sure it will scare off many more.

[barrysloate]

You're right David. That Drysdale has an ugly print line on the back and really not even perfect corners. Maybe it's a nice 7. And Dan, as always, good points. Law enforcement probably has too high a hurdle, so the industry will have to take care of its own business, assuming enough people care. They very well may not.

[T206Collector]

Collectors' affinity for the PSA Set Registry rankings is de facto proof that collecting is driven for many by what PSA says, not what the card really is. You are collecting PSA cards, not baseball cards.

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

I have seen a lot of talk in this thread about card doctoring, some talk about incompetent graders, but what about collusion? Now, all you TPG defenders can start commenting on how whacky my conspiracy theory is.

Not entirely crazy, in my opinion. Ultimately, cash is king, and greed rules. I'm sure you could propose a few more scenarios that would be dismissed quickly and easily by the masses, but a higher degree of professional skepticism in this hobby may just be warranted as collectors continue to be taken advantage of. Sometimes, it's not so easy to piece the puzzle together, but the sharing of information by honest individuals is key to preventing future breakdowns. Thank you again for the contributions in this thread.

In instances of widespread collusion amongst willing and able parties (who may just set benchmarks and lay foundations for the hobby), collectors will always face uphill battles in their quests for personal fulfillment. Motivations for profit from people we don't know should never be underestimated.

[T206Collector]

You're right David. That Drysdale has an ugly print line on the back and really not even perfect corners. Maybe it's a nice 7. And Dan, as always, good points. Law enforcement probably has too high a hurdle, so the industry will have to take care of its own business, assuming enough people care. They very well may not.

We can't even all agree that erasing a stray pencil mark isn't taboo. Or that soaking T206 cards to remove glue is okay. There is no universal standard. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is trimming. And yet it's okay to cut strip cards by hand. The standard is a mess.

The only thing you have to "enforce" is what PSA and SGC "guarantee" to collectors. As long as they reasonably adhered to their guarantee, there is not much to complain about. You'd have to find proof of a conspiracy or illicit motive. Very hard to do behind the veil of the grading room.

[conor912]

Collector: Is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Yeah, but is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Then it could be and you just don't see the signs?
TPG: Yes, but we don't see any signs of trimming.
C: I thought the point of TPGs was for certainty.
TPG: We guarantee that we did our best to determine alteration.

For the record, this is a fictional dialogue and not one I have had or know about, but based on all the outs and caveats within TPG literature, I think it's pretty safe to say that they guarantee nothing.

[Leon]

Collector: Is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Yeah, but is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Then it could be and you just don't see the signs?
TPG: Yes, but we don't see any signs of trimming.
C: I thought the point of TPGs was for certainty.
TPG: We guarantee that we did our best to determine alteration.

For the record, this is a fictional dialogue and not one I have had or know about, but based on all the outs and caveats within TPG literature, I think it's pretty safe to say that they guarantee nothing.

Perfectly illustrated. And herein lies the problem. This is why authorities have such a difficult time with it.

[D.P.Johnson]

There's a lot of "ifs", "ands", and "buts", in this guarantee:

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

[D.P.Johnson]

Perfectly illustrated. And herein lies the problem. This is why authorities have such a difficult time with it.

Leon, do you have contact information for any of the L.E. people who view this board??? If so, can you share it??? (Not their personal contact information, their work contact information.) Or, if you just have their name and who they work for, I can figure out how to get ahold of them. Thanks.

[Leon]

Leon, do you have contact information for any of the L.E. people who view this board??? If so, can you share it??? (Not their personal contact information, their work contact information.) Thanks.

I have contact information for all of them but I don't really want to put it out in public. Anyone can call them though, they are public servants. It is widely known that the FBI in Chicago is working on hobby cases of fraud. It is also known that the Secret Service in California is working on some cases in the hobby. If anyone wants to PM me or email me I will give more specifics but I don't want to have those folks deluged with calls from our board, if they aren't somewhat qualified. But again, this is America..... I am not the key holder to anything.... :).

[D.P.Johnson]

I have contact information for all of them but I don't really want to put it out in public. Anyone can call them though, they are public servants. It is widely known that the FBI in Chicago is working on hobby cases of fraud. It is also known that the Secret Service in California is working on some cases in the hobby. If anyone wants to PM me or email me I will give more specifics but I don't want to have those folks deluged with calls from our board, if they aren't somewhat qualified. But again, this is America..... I am not the key holder to anything.... :).

Ok. Thanks. I'll figure it out.

[glchen]

We can't even all agree that erasing a stray pencil mark isn't taboo. Or that soaking T206 cards to remove glue is okay. There is no universal standard. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is trimming. And yet it's okay to cut strip cards by hand. The standard is a mess.
...

You know, I was thinking, and I know this is probably going to be unpopular, but is the so called "undetectable trim" acceptable to collectors in the hobby? I will use the analogy with to the so called "undetectable pencil erasure." If both are undetectable, did they really occur? This is both facetious and serious in a way. Does this card deserve to be in a card with a number grade? For raw collectors, does this card deserve to have a note on it that it was trimmed?

For this argument, I will present this E120 Ruth that was sold in REA a couple of years ago: Link (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2011/585.html). I don't mean to pick on Rob, because Rob is one of the best, but in a way, that's precisely why because if even the best in the hobby use these words: "The trimming is very subtle and is impossible to detect without a trained eye." In fairness to Rob, he also states that the card was rejected by PSA for trimming, and PSA will never give the card a number grade. In addition, you can infer from the description, that the consignor for this card purchased it raw before the advent of TPG's, and he was never told that this card was trimmed. Therefore, if TPG's never existed, this card would be continued to be sold raw without anyone saying that it had been trimmed in the past. So the question is that if no one can detect the trim, there is no evidence of sheet cut (like the T206 Wagner, OPC Gretzky's, etc.), similar to the undetectable pencil erasure, is it a trim? Another example I will give is this CJ Joe Jackson where no trim was detected, but it was determined that it did not meet the minimum size requirements: Link (http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=79909). If this card were raw and TPG's never existed, would it still be sold as not meeting Minimum Size Requirements. In the age of TPG, does it deserve to be in a numbered holder?

Back to the E120 Ruth, and you knew this was coming, but PSA did end up grading it PSA 5.5: Link (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1922-E120-American-Caramel-Co-Babe-Ruth-HOF-NY-Yankees-PSA-5-5-EX-RARE-LOW-POP-/360684278364). Probstein again. It was recently for sale on ebay again here: Link (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1922-E120-PSA-5-5-Babe-Ruth-American-Caramel-New-York-Yankees-Americans-/300946527647). You know it's the same card because of the chipping in the top right corner. I don't know if the CJ Jackson has made it to a numbered holder yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did, and I think it's just a matter of time. The submitter will say to the grader, I don't see a trim, do you? Nope. Don't you think it deserves to be in a numbered holder? Some grader is going to say yes. The question is what the hobby thinks.

[Leon]

I just spoke with Joseph M Pankiewicz. He said if David will edit the title of this thread then he will come on the board and give his side of the story. He also said he would like any wording such as "Joseph M Pankiewicz is a ***** to the hobby" taken out too. I said I would ask David to do that but I won't force anyone to do anything, generally speaking. So, .......

[vintagetoppsguy]

I just spoke with Joseph M Pankiewicz. He said if David will edit the title of this thread then he will come on the board and give his side of the story. He also said he would like any wording such as "Joseph M Pankiewicz is a ***** to the hobby" taken out too. I said I would ask David to do that but I won't force anyone to do anything, generally speaking. So, .......

Done :D

[ullmandds]

I think it's time to start the popcorn?!

His side of the story...or the "truth?"

[Leon]

Done :D

Thanks David (you can disregard the voicemail I left for you as it was only about this)

OK, I just spoke with Joe P. again. He said he will respond. I don't think it will be immediately but he will. I would guess it will be today, tonight or tomorrow....but he said he will and gave his word. So we shall see.....

[teetwoohsix]

Barry there are all sorts of rationalizations people give for themselves.

1. I am careful, I can avoid or minimize the problem. (mine)
2. It doesn't affect what I collect.
3. The problem isn't nearly as widespread as the conspiracy theorists claim.
4. It's all speculation, there is no proof.
5. TPGs do well by my submissions therefore I trust them.
6. I don't believe the conspiracy theories about inside jobs, favoritism, etc.
7. If it's in a holder it has a defined value so what difference does it make anyhow.
8. I just want to enjoy my hobby so I choose to avoid all the negativity.

+1

Good one! Made me laugh, I almost forgot we were talking about cards :)

Sincerely, Clayton

[vintagetoppsguy]

OK, I just spoke with Joe P. again. He said he will respond. I don't think it will be immediately but he will. I would guess it will be today, tonight or tomorrow....but he said he will and gave his word. So we shall see.....

I would expect that he should need some time to get his ducks in a row. There are several things he needs to address:

Bumps
Card doctoring
Shilling

Please feel free to add to that list.

[Leon]

I would expect that he should need some time to get his ducks in a row. There are several things he needs to address:

Bumps
Card doctoring
Shilling

Please feel free to add to that list.

He said he had something written up but I would venture to guess he wants to really go over it before he comes on here.

[auggiedoggy]

I am Canadian after all...they have to keep a close eye on us.

Yes, we wouldn't want the Whitehouse to accidentally burn down again now would we? :rolleyes:

[Ease]

This ought to be very interesting. Like walking into a buzzsaw for him I fear.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Maybe he needs time to consult with a spin doctor.

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

Thanks David (you can disregard the voicemail I left for you as it was only about this)

OK, I just spoke with Joe P. again. He said he will respond. I don't think it will be immediately but he will. I would guess it will be today, tonight or tomorrow....but he said he will and gave his word. So we shall see.....

The evolution of this thread has been completely surreal.

Leon,

Are you able to disclose whether this gentleman had joined the Forum previously?...I'm just anxious to know the "details", I guess.

Thanks.

RLR

[Rich Klein]

And others. Don't we need our full names in this thread. Leon, please ensure that gets done

[T206Collector]

If the full truth would show he was not at fault, he should come clean.

If the full truth might subject him to further ridicule, he should either lie or get a lawyer before responding.

[botn]

Take this '57 Drysdale below that ended on eBay last night. It sold for $7100 which I believe to be a record (didn't verify that though). Now, look at the back. Do you really think that deserves a 9? Do you really think the guy that purchased it even cares about the back (or even looked at it before he bought it for that matter)? No, he only cares about what the flip says.

Do you think the buyer of that card would have given even $100 for the same card if it resided in a PSA 6 holder? No, because it’s not about the card, it’s about the flip and it wouldn't help him on the registry. That PSA 9 Drysdale will help that buyer on the registry and that’s all that matters to him. You're right, as long is the label reads “8” (or whatever number they buyer is looking for), then the card is that number in his mind.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-18-Don-Drysdale-Rookie-RC-HOF-Dodgers-PSA-9-MINT-Dead-Centered-/370881619106?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item565a4464a2#ht_950wt_1042

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1957-Topps-18-Don-Drysdale-Rookie-RC-HOF-Dodgers-PSA-9-MINT-Dead-Centered-/00/s/MTU4MFg5MzU=/z/FW4AAOxy-NVSE6SN/$(KGrHqVHJBkFH)1g-V0NBSE6SMs5Ig~~60_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1957-Topps-18-Don-Drysdale-Rookie-RC-HOF-Dodgers-PSA-9-MINT-Dead-Centered-/00/s/MTU4MFg5MzU=/z/ZUoAAOxySFJSE6Si/$T2eC16ZHJIcFHN-V849fBSE6ShSdu!~~60_57.JPG

That was my card. I bought it ungraded here, http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=105&lot_num=889. It was submitted and came back graded accurately in a much lower holder because of the print line and couple of touches to the corners which no longer seem touched. It was sold in the lower graded holder earlier this year. Amazing transformation.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Barry there are all sorts of rationalizations people give for themselves.

1. I am careful, I can avoid or minimize the problem. (mine)
2. It doesn't affect what I collect.
3. The problem isn't nearly as widespread as the conspiracy theorists claim.
4. It's all speculation, there is no proof.
5. TPGs do well by my submissions therefore I trust them.
6. I don't believe the conspiracy theories about inside jobs, favoritism, etc.
7. If it's in a holder it has a defined value so what difference does it make anyhow.
8. I just want to enjoy my hobby so I choose to avoid all the negativity.

Excellent post Peter - as usual.

The other major factor that seems to purge all rational thinking out of typically well educated and financially successful people is the Set Registry. If the competition factor wasn't enough, receiving Hall of Fame awards and being publicly recognized in the SMR and PSA's website pretty much inoculates anyone who just dropped six or seven figures building a "world class" collection from going public and saying, "This grading and registry concept is a sham and I've been had!"

[vintagetoppsguy]

That was my card. I bought it ungraded here, http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=105&lot_num=889. It was submitted and came back graded accurately in a much lower holder because of the print line and couple of touches to the corners which no longer seem touched. It was sold in the lower graded holder earlier this year. Amazing transformation.

Wow! :eek:

You didn't happen to scan it after it came back did you? Mind sharing the grade? It is described by Hunt Auctions as EX-EX/MT.

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

And others. Don't we need our full names in this thread. Leon, please ensure that gets done

Sorry. I am new to the Forum, and I may have missed the request for full names. For some reason, I thought full names were used only in instances where someone had some legal responsibility for criticisms, accusations, etc. For the record, I do not normally post with my full name.

ROBERT L RUMCIK
o.c.trading

p.s. You're not getting my address.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Wow! :eek:

You didn't happen to scan it after it came back did you? Mind sharing the grade? It is described by Hunt Auctions as EX-EX/MT.

I think I found it? Same print marks on front. Do you still have the original (better) scan. Amazing how it goes from a $154 card to a $7100 card :eek:

[T206Collector]

March 14, 2013 ebay auction - 190807734692

[vintagetoppsguy]

March 14, 2013 ebay auction - 190807734692

Yup, that's the one I found too. I would also be interested in knowing who purchased it (assuming Greg wouldn't mind divulging that information).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sounds like a little Hendrix is in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWYcMkSSqPs

[Cardboard Junkie]

Nicely done, Peter. A timeless classic jam. Very appropriate. :) Dave

[atx840]

s***2, he also won a PSA 7 Drysdale a month later.

[Vol]

Sounds like a little Hendrix is in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWYcMkSSqPs

Sooo good. :)

[barrysloate]

Sounds like a little Hendrix is in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWYcMkSSqPs

"Go ahead on mister card grader, you can't dress like me...."

If a $150 card becomes a 7K card, then graders are just minting money.

[ullmandds]

agreed Barry...I've been sayin' it for years...the TPG'ers ARE printing money!!!!

[Leon]

I guess Joe is reading this string. He just told me, via email, that he is still not ok with the title. He said if we want a response then it needs to be changed again. I told him that if he doesn't respond then I will most likely start one or more threads with titles he will like even less. He even gave a suggestion of

... "some people are unbelievable or outrageous."


and went onto say if we want a response then that is what he wants. So there ya go....I am just a messenger here folks.....

[ullmandds]

I feel like i'm entering..."the twilight zone!"

How about the title..."If it looks like a duck..."

[vintagetoppsguy]

I guess Joe is reading this string. He just told me, via email, that he is still not ok with the title. He said if we want a response then it needs to be changed again. I told him that if he doesn't respond then I will most likely start one or more threads with titles he will like even less. He even gave a suggestion of

... "some people are unbelievable or outrageous."


and went onto say if we want a response then that is what he wants. So there ya go....I am just a messenger here folks.....

Leon, please feel free to change the title as you see fit. I don't want to keep changing it just because it's not satisfactory to him. You talked to him, so maybe you have an idea what will satisfy him. I just think this is his way of stalling.

[npa589]

Easy solution! :D

I feel like we're dealing with a terrorist making requests before he comes out with his hostage (which, in this case, is "his side" of the story).

[Zach Wheat]

Let me grab my bag of popcorn...

Z Wheat