You spotted a fake, had your seizure,and I learned nothing.

[Stonepony]

(Tongue in cheek....kinda)
So you've spotted another fake card or auto on Ebay. You then immediately post the link on the forum and tell us what a lather you're in and how you're too upset to bring the wife and kids to dinner. In fact you're not sure if you're going to be up to going to work on Monday. This is followed by multiple responses of " Fake", " What a joke" , "Fake", " I Emailed the guy" etc. Etc.
I ask, before all the accolades swamp you, that you please take the time to point out in a educational/ professional manner...exactly what is evident that makes it a fake. It may be obvious to most, but the rest of us would appreciate the insight. " The white of the card should blend seamlessly into the border", " The top of the cap should not touch the border", " The background is never that orange" or whatever . Why is it a fake? When these are pointed out, and they are sometimes, it's invaluable to some of us. I may be the only one, but if it hadn't been for the guy in Tigonemetry class that constantly raised his hands and asked questions, we all would have failed. So after passing on your wisdom about the fake, go to the ER for your facial twitching.....but bring your laptop....it's a 3 hour wait:)

[the 'stache]

I understand how you feel, Dave. Whenever I see these, I try to chime in, though my knowledge as of now is limited. I am learning quickly though :p

If you see a discussion similar to the one you described, and have questions, fire away. I've found the members of our forum are happy to provide input if it is politely asked for.

[D.P.Johnson]

I'm new to the board but I think I know what you're trying to say. This type of discussion about "fakes" and whatnot is some of the most interesting stuff to read and learn about from the experts on this board...

[the 'stache]

Welcome to the forum, Dan.

I agree. They make for some of the most interesting discussions, and most educational.

The more I read the responses from the seasoned collectors, the more I am learning that there's often not one or two telltale signs that a card is a fake. It's often much more nuanced than that.

We would all be well advised to follow some of the best advice I've seen since joining the forum: one, buy the card, not the grade, if purchasing a slabbed card. You are paying for a person's opinion. Never assume the card is legitimate because it is slabbed. Examine the card, and the case, and ask questions of your fellow forum members if you're not sure.

Two, buy cards from reputable dealers. Trust in this hobby is important, especially when considering the amount of money that can exchange hands.

And three, education is power. If you are collecting, learn about your subject. Become familiar with how these cards feel, and look. If you're collecting T206 cards, or 1952 Topps cards, get a beater you know is the real thing, and use that as a control. When you acquire a card for your collection, compare it to your control card. Look at it under a microscope. If you're collecting something like the 1971 Topps set (a little beyond the scope of this main board, I know), use a black light, and make sure that the edges haven't been darkened with a black marker. And when you're not sure, ask questions.

[Texxxx]

I agree with Bill. Just jump in and ask. Not many here that want be glad to help. Some times though you will just not totally understand until you have put one in your hands and see a real one in person. Then a light goes off and it's obvious. I would suggest making some shows and just looking at all the cards you can in person.

[Runscott]

It may seem to the OP like not enough info has been posted, but most of us do not try to educate everyone from square one on each and every post. Just ask for specifics and you won't be ignored.

[drcy]

Sometimes when I explain things I worry I've insulted peoples' intelligence.

It's okay to ask. Only a boor would brush you off. Not to suggest there aren't boors on this board, but there are more who are happy to help.

No one was born with baseball card fake knowledge. Even the most seasoned expert started at the level of dumb.

[thehoodedcoder]

It may seem to the OP like not enough info has been posted, but most of us do not try to educate everyone from square one on each and every post. Just ask for specifics and you won't be ignored.

+1

[Stonepony]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott
It may seem to the OP like not enough info has been posted, but most of us do not try to educate everyone from square one on each and every post. Just ask for specifics and you won't be ignored.

No need for square one education on every post and its clear everyone here is helpful. My point was if you out a bad card or auto , tell us why... Or not I guess.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks

[glchen]

One of the biggest reasons to say fake is if it were a card worth several thousands of dollars or more, then seller would have had the card authenticated by a reputable TPG. So if they didn't, you should already come into it very suspicious. In addition, you look at the seller feedbacks. If the feedback # is very low, then you are even more suspicious. Then you look at what else the seller is selling. If this is the only card they are selling, or all of the cards that they selling are known to have been reprinted or counterfeited many times, it's another sign that you should avoid the sale. So basically, you can have all of the above without even really studying a scan of the card, and know that it's probably a fake. However, if the card is sold with a bunch of other cards that are authentic, then the card is worth studying more because there's a lot better chance. For example, if a Babe Ruth strip card is sold at the same time as a bunch of other commons from the same set, then there's a better chance that it's authentic.

[the 'stache]

I agree with Bill. Just jump in and ask. Not many here that want be glad to help. Some times though you will just not totally understand until you have put one in your hands and see a real one in person. Then a light goes off and it's obvious. I would suggest making some shows and just looking at all the cards you can in person.

Bruce is right. Speaking metaphorically, you can learn all there is to know about swimming from reading books, and watching videos. But until you've jumped into a pool, and the water is over your head, you don't have the first hand experience that is so vitally necessary.

[the 'stache]

One of the biggest reasons to say fake is if it were a card worth several thousands of dollars or more, then seller would have had the card authenticated by a reputable TPG. So if they didn't, you should already come into it very suspicious. In addition, you look at the seller feedbacks. If the feedback # is very low, then you are even more suspicious. Then you look at what else the seller is selling. If this is the only card they are selling, or all of the cards that they selling are known to have been reprinted or counterfeited many times, it's another sign that you should avoid the sale. So basically, you can have all of the above without even really studying a scan of the card, and know that it's probably a fake. However, if the card is sold with a bunch of other cards that are authentic, then the card is worth studying more because there's a lot better chance. For example, if a Babe Ruth strip card is sold at the same time as a bunch of other commons from the same set, then there's a better chance that it's authentic.

Excellent post, Gary.

[D.P.Johnson]

A lot of good responses in this thread...Thanks all...

[ullmandds]

Or...on the other hand...there is an archive which will contain ad nauseum the answer to almost any question any of you may have regarding detecting fakes...counterfeits...as well as any other question regarding vintage cards...etc...all you have to do is a little searching and all of your dreams will come true.

IT took many of us decades to accumulate our knowledge base...and it gets quite tiresome(as there are soooooo many fake cards out there) to go over the obvious reasons each and every time!

Use the search/archive functions!!!!

[Leon]

Or...on the other hand...there is an archive which will contain ad nauseum the answer to almost any question any of you may have regarding detecting fakes...counterfeits...as well as any other question regarding vintage cards...etc...all you have to do is a little searching and all of your dreams will come true.

IT took many of us decades to accumulate our knowledge base...and it gets quite tiresome(as there are soooooo many fake cards out there) to go over the obvious reasons each and every time!

Use the search/archive functions!!!!

Good points Peter. The Archives section does contain a lot of good info about sets. And right next to that section is one on Detecting Alterations and Reprints. There is a lot of good info in those two places and I think many times people don't even know they are there. It is the row of icons at the top of every page, and it's the 2 of them on the far right. Happy collecting....

[Stonepony]

Ok, thanks all 110628

[CaramelMan]

As another new guy, I don't know if I can write this but, you are coming across as a real wise ass, I don't think that is a way to garner more help in the future...

[Leon]

As another new guy, I don't know if I can write this but, you are coming across as a real wise ass, I don't think that is a way to garner more help in the future...

New or old you can write almost anything you want to as long as your full name is in your post, which it is. If folks think I, or another moderator, are doing something wrong...it is fine to point it out and debate it. As for the drawing, looks like his opinion and he is entitled to that as much as I am entitled to pointing to parts of the board that will help his cause (if he really wants to learn). Horse > water > drink

[bobbyw8469]

Here here....I myself, don't mind telling people what to look for on dealing with fake/reprint Sport Kings cards, but it seems like I repeat the same info over and over. Gets a little redundant. A archive/search function can do wonders. Shoot, I bet if you even typed what you are looking for in Google, it shows up that way too!

[Rickyy]

Net 54 archive folder is very helpful for new members and old...gives you links and tips for searching for answers to your questions...by keywords and titles...I use it all the time. Ricky Y

[thehoodedcoder]

Ok, thanks all 110628

this image is hilarious. i have been laughing for the last 10 minutes.

kevin

[Stonepony]

No harm intended. I AM a bit of a wise ass I suppose , but this thread was intended to be helpful ( and somewhat tongue in cheek as I offered up front). I have been collecting ( not continuously ) since mid 70s, and while I have a pretty good knowledge base, I am by far no expert and love learning . This site is fantastic for that. Thanks for all the input, and I'm glad alot of you are thick skinned and recognize some attempt at humor. Thanks, Dave

[CaramelMan]

Ya but it's had to tell (when you are new) if you are being a wise guy, or funny...it's that I felt like I was being reprimanded in your OP...SORRY we weren't as helpful as you would have wanted us to be...remember sometimes you get what you pay for...this is a free site remember Stony.:D

[Tyler]

Dave,
I am with ya here. So many posts about "look at this ebay fake"!
Why not say..."look at this ebay fake...the registration is way off! or "hat is too close to the border"?
I agree...if you are going to post an auction that is not "on the level", why not take 5 seconds to say why it isn't?

[D.P.Johnson]

I've been on various types of message boards since the late 90's (or whenever it was that Al Gore invented the internet), and I've seen numerous of them "die" when the veteren members stopped helping the "newbies" and/or kept continuously telling them to use the "search" feature. I think that regardless of how many times the "same stupid question" has been asked and answered, the OP (or newbie) should never be "flamed" and/or simply told to use the "search" function. If an veteren member (or ANY member) doesn't feel like answering a question, then don't answer it. It's really as simple as that. However, the elderly members should always try and remember when they were "newbies" and how they would have liked to have been treated when they had questions. We all had to start somewhere...

Just my .02 (but probably worth a lot less)...:)....

[Zach Wheat]

DP,

Completely agree with you. This was probably one of the most frustrating things I encountered when I started using the Forum a number of years ago. Re: fakes, some times it is a lot of little things that are just not consistent with an authentic card including intangibles like seller feedback & descriptions.

There is a lot to learn from people on this board. There is just so much accumulated knowledge, I would hate to be a fraud steer trying to pull one over on people.

Do a quick search on some of the April fools day posts. Early on someone would try to create fraudulent cards with a backstory....just for fun...to see if they could fool people. It always amazed me how fast people could figure things out. Makes for good reading if you can find the links.

Z Wheat

[EvilKing00]

I would also love to hear the reasons / differences bet fakes and the real deal in what ever card is in question. Love learning new things.

[D.P.Johnson]

DP,

Completely agree with you. This was probably one of the most frustrating things I encountered when I started using the Forum a number of years ago. Re: fakes, some times it is a lot of little things that are just not consistent with an authentic card including intangibles like seller feedback & descriptions.

There is a lot to learn from people on this board. There is just so much accumulated knowledge, I would hate to be a fraud steer trying to pull one over on people.

Do a quick search on some of the April fools day posts. Early on someone would try to create fraudulent cards with a backstory....just for fun...to see if they could fool people. It always amazed me how fast people could figure things out. Makes for good reading if you can find the links.

Z Wheat

Thanks. One of the problems with the growth of message boards (and the internet in general) is the VAST storage of knowledge. Nowadays, people don't necessarily have to EVER ask any questions or start new threads if they simply search long and hard enough. That being said, if a message board wants to grow and accumulate new members, they need to encourage all members (and especially the veteren members) to ask questions and/or participate in the threads. If not, people will not feel welcome, they won't participate, and they'll find somewhere else to go. Eventually the board will stagnate and die...

[barrysloate]

For people who have been in the hobby for a long time, fakes are often easy to detect, and will usually have something obviously wrong with them. For a beginner, it is of course more difficult.

Most of the discussions on this board concerning fakes, as well as virtually every aspect of card collecting, are about T206's. And most of the bad cards we see come from that set. Typically, a fake T206 will have the wrong font, the wrong color lettering (black instead of brown), wrong back color (such as red Piedmonts or Sovereigns), have borders that are too wide, or have a front/back combination that cannot possibly exist. Learning all of this takes time, and nothing is better than to handle as many actual cards as possible. It is always easier to spot a fake or altered card by holding it, not by viewing a scan.

Sometimes the fakes are not as obvious, and much more difficult to detect online. In these cases, often the "tell" is the wording of the description. When you see a really funky looking card, and the seller states his grandfather left it to him when he died, you should always be really suspicious.

And of course you should feel free to ask questions on this board without fear of reprisal.

[Leon]

Thanks. One of the problems with the growth of message boards (and the internet in general) is the VAST storage of knowledge. Nowadays, people don't necessarily have to EVER ask any questions or start new threads if they simply search long and hard enough. That being said, if a message board wants to grow and accumulate new members, they need to encourage all members (and especially the veteren members) to ask questions and/or participate in the threads. If not, people will not feel welcome, they won't participate, and they'll find somewhere else to go. Eventually the board will stagnate and die...

I have confidence we won't stagnate. We average 100+ new, registered members per month and have for several years running. I merely pointed to the alterations section because there is great info there. That being said, I agree with Barry in that no one should fear asking any hobby related question. That's what the board is here for, essentially.

[Tao_Moko]

I would say 99% of the time that the outing of the "fake" card is obvious enough that I don't bother reading the post.

[bcornell]

If smart alecs were banned, this forum would need a banner ad for tumbleweeds.

I checked out the "Detecting Card Fakes" [sic] page for the first time in a while. One entry that could be added is from a post that Frank Ward provided back in the early 21st century about CJ's (the last paragraph about ink is the most useful). Which, by the way, I found through search...

**********************************

'1914's will say "144 Pictures" in the paragraph on back bottom, the 1915's will say "176 Pictures". The ACC# (American Card Catalog Number) for the 1914's is "E145-1", and 1915's is "E145-2".

There are many many reprints (all worthless) made for the 1915 set, and a few for the 1914's. The easiest way to tell a reprint from an original is to look at the paper type and quality. Real cards are made from a thin lower quality construction paper, very porous in texture, with a rough surface if viewed closely on both front and back. All fakes Ive seen will be made from a thin higher quality smooth surfaced modern card stock. Also the fakes will have a smooth slightly glossy or waxy surface to the front, the real cards have no gloss or waxy look to them and will not cast a glare if turned at angle to a light.

Another 100% positive way to tell a fake on the 1915's only ("176 Picture" series), is for some unknown reason, the backs on all 1915's have been printed upside down. In other words, the bottom edge of the back, is the same edge as the top of the front. I have yet to see a 1915 reprint with this upside down back.

Another characteristic of all real Cracker Jack cards, is there is no white ink on the cards. The white or light parts of the uniform is the natural paper color. Most fakes have a white ink for the white parts of uniform, that doesnt match the white border of the card. Real cards will have the uniform blend perfectly into the white border where they meet.'

[Stonepony]

Thanks for that, Bill. Great information

[cyseymour]

(Tongue in cheek....kinda)
So you've spotted another fake card or auto on Ebay. You then immediately post the link on the forum and tell us what a lather you're in and how you're too upset to bring the wife and kids to dinner. In fact you're not sure if you're going to be up to going to work on Monday. This is followed by multiple responses of " Fake", " What a joke" , "Fake", " I Emailed the guy" etc. Etc.
I ask, before all the accolades swamp you, that you please take the time to point out in a educational/ professional manner...exactly what is evident that makes it a fake. It may be obvious to most, but the rest of us would appreciate the insight. " The white of the card should blend seamlessly into the border", " The top of the cap should not touch the border", " The background is never that orange" or whatever . Why is it a fake? When these are pointed out, and they are sometimes, it's invaluable to some of us. I may be the only one, but if it hadn't been for the guy in Tigonemetry class that constantly raised his hands and asked questions, we all would have failed. So after passing on your wisdom about the fake, go to the ER for your facial twitching.....but bring your laptop....it's a 3 hour wait:)

So someone posted a card that is a fake. They did it to help people like you, so you won't get ripped off. They don't owe you anything. They don't owe you an explanation. They have no obligation to even tell you it is fake in the first place. They are simply doing it to expose fraud within the hobby.

They weren't put on this board to serve you - they are being kind to aware the community of a fake card. None of them are "having a seizure" - they've all seen fake cards before. The only person who would have a seizure would be someone who learns it's fake after they've already been scammed.

[Bestdj777]

Every time I come across a fake 52 Mantle, that is not clearly fake, I try to post it on the board so no one here gets burned. I often do not identify the reason, because a lot of it is just a "know it when you see it" thing (will try to point out the reason in the future though, because it definitely could not hurt). If you look at enough real cards and enough fake cards, you can begin to spot obvious fakes. One thing I have learned from being on this board, is that there is no reason not to ask questions if you have any. If someone posts a fake, nothing stopping you from asking why. Also, if there is a card you are interested in buying, people will almost always give you feedback through PMs.

Also, as an aside, I've found the google search function very helpful when looking for archived threads on this board. You can limit your google search by site, and I've found that works well for finding past threads.

[bcornell]

Thanks for that, Bill. Great information

I was largely a newbie when I arrived here. PSA had summarily declared 2 T204's I had as trimmed, when they definitely were not. That was my last PSA submission. I've bought, sold & traded a ton of cards since then and I humbly think I can pick out a fake from a long way away, especially when I hold it in my hands, but sometimes, that isn't possible.

The eBay crud is annoying, so I get why people post about it, although it's never going to end. I also get why a poster would ask "what, exactly, is wrong with it?" and I think that's a much more important post. No harm in sharing knowledge.

Bill

[vintagetoppsguy]

So someone posted a card that is a fake. They did it to help people like you, so you won't get ripped off. They don't owe you anything. They don't owe you an explanation. They have no obligation to even tell you it is fake in the first place. They are simply doing it to expose fraud within the hobby.

They weren't put on this board to serve you - they are being kind to aware the community of a fake card. None of them are "having a seizure" - they've all seen fake cards before. The only person who would have a seizure would be someone who learns it's fake after they've already been scammed.

+1 Well said.

If someone points out that a card is a fake and you want to know why, PM that person and they will probably be glad to explain it to you. Believe it or not, the scammers read these boards too. On the hard to detect, not so obvious fakes, why point out the reasons on a public forum? So they can hone their skills and do a better job next time?

[the 'stache]

David, that's a great point. I never thought about the scammers coming here to learn.

[bcornell]

+
If someone points out that a card is a fake and you want to know why, PM that person and they will probably be glad to explain it to you. Believe it or not, the scammers read these boards too. On the hard to detect, not so obvious fakes, why point out the reasons on a public forum? So they can hone their skills and do a better job next time?

David -

I don't buy that, at all. I'm not worried about scammers. They can read all they want here, but they can't fake cards properly enough to fool knowledgeable collectors because they're both too lazy and they don't know how to do it. I've never seen a "good" fake card in my life, up close. I'm opposed to withholding info that other collectors can use.

Bill

[Stonepony]

So someone posted a card that is a fake. They did it to help people like you, so you won't get ripped off. They don't owe you anything. They don't owe you an explanation. They have no obligation to even tell you it is fake in the first place. They are simply doing it to expose fraud within the hobby.

They weren't put on this board to serve you - they are being kind to aware the community of a fake card. None of them are "having a seizure" - they've all seen fake cards before. The only person who would have a seizure would be someone who learns it's fake after they've already been scammed.

I appreciate everyone's input. I apologize if I gave the impression I was "owed" something or that I thought you all were here to "serve me" . I was just trying to seek helpful information and rib you a little. This thread turned sour and I really apologize. I'll exit left and post no more to this subject
110729

[CW]

So someone posted a card that is a fake. They did it to help people like you, so you won't get ripped off. They don't owe you anything. They don't owe you an explanation. They have no obligation to even tell you it is fake in the first place. They are simply doing it to expose fraud within the hobby.

They weren't put on this board to serve you - they are being kind to aware the community of a fake card. None of them are "having a seizure" - they've all seen fake cards before. The only person who would have a seizure would be someone who learns it's fake after they've already been scammed.

Yeesh, lighten up a bit, eh? The guy started off his post saying it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and when it came down to it he did have the courtesy to say "please" and that he's simply appreciate any insight. He just asked -- he didn't say anybody owed anyone else anything.

Man, sometimes y'all sound like a bunch of grumpy old men! :D It's a freaking HOBBY -- enjoy it and share your knowledge, as it will only encourage others to join in.

[D.P.Johnson]

Lots of good input and advice in this thread. It's nice to read everyone's opposing opinions while they remain relatively civil...

[CaramelMan]

Thanks. One of the problems with the growth of message boards (and the internet in general) is the VAST storage of knowledge. Nowadays, people don't necessarily have to EVER ask any questions or start new threads if they simply search long and hard enough. That being said, if a message board wants to grow and accumulate new members, they need to encourage all members (and especially the veteren members) to ask questions and/or participate in the threads. If not, people will not feel welcome, they won't participate, and they'll find somewhere else to go. Eventually the board will stagnate and die...



But three is nice polite way, and a wise ass way to ask for something...

There is a difference and for me personally it matters in wanting to help someone or not..

When I first read your post, I thought you were a scammer trying to figure out how to do a better job next time...that's how you came across newbie.

[ReefBlue]

I've been on various types of message boards since the late 90's (or whenever it was that Al Gore invented the internet), and I've seen numerous of them "die" when the veteren members stopped helping the "newbies" and/or kept continuously telling them to use the "search" feature. I think that regardless of how many times the "same stupid question" has been asked and answered, the OP (or newbie) should never be "flamed" and/or simply told to use the "search" function. If an veteren member (or ANY member) doesn't feel like answering a question, then don't answer it. It's really as simple as that. However, the elderly members should always try and remember when they were "newbies" and how they would have liked to have been treated when they had questions. We all had to start somewhere...

Just my .02 (but probably worth a lot less)...:)....

Best part about someone going on a rant about using the search feature, is that it takes longer to go into that diatribe than it does to say why the thing isn't real.

If everyone used the search function for everything, that would stop new information from coming in and you'd end up with a wiki site filled up with outdated information.

A very good example happened a week or two ago--the cut sigs of Ruth, Wagner, Young, etc. that were posted--someone said 'i know that forger, but up to now didn't know he started doing these other sigs'.

Also, over time, if people do nothing but use search functions, the original threads lose their meaning--pictures are no longer hosted and provide no information--'go to this link and check out this site' doesn't work either, since that website has long been abandoned.

[drcy]

...

[T206Collector]

One of the reasons that I keep a blog on my website is for me to archive my own long-winded responses to questions or issues that pop up repeatedly. So, when the issue or question comes up again, and I see it, I just copy it from my blog and paste it back into Net54. I have probably re-posted my "Grading Pyramid" comments on here a half dozen times -- usually when someone is perplexed that not all PSA 3s look alike.

For what it's worth, I went through the old Net54 and cataloged as many of the T206 threads as I could find by topic. I put those on my website for people who want to read all of the T206 thoughts of this board circa 2008. For instance, there is a post about the "F" stamp going around this morning. One of the first discussion points for that renewed dialogue is there.

But, I don't think most of the new people who come here are really looking to do any research. For most, you come here and you ask your question hoping to get a quick response. It's easier than Google, because you get a response from a live person, as opposed to a machine-generated list of potentially accurate answers.

I think there are certain explanations that are worth giving over and over again ad nauseum. However, the "is this Wagner real?" question is not one of them. The question explains itself -- if you have to ask, then it is fake. Period. You didn't just win the lottery. You didn't just stumble on to an ebay auction that nobody else saw.

[drcy]

...

[D.P.Johnson]

when i first read your post, i thought you were a scammer trying to figure out how to do a better job next time...that's how you came across newbie.


Wut???

[Runscott]

I think he was referring to your 'bull in a china closet' entrance.

[auggiedoggy]

this image is hilarious. i have been laughing for the last 10 minutes.

kevin

I come here also for the humour. :D

[D.P.Johnson]

I think he was referring to your 'bull in a china closet' entrance.

I didn't start the thread...:confused:...

[Runscott]

Sorry about that - you and the OP seemed to be on the same wavelength, and I got the two of you confused.

My apologies.

[npa589]

Wait guys, I'm confused. Is Tigonemetry Pooh math?