What PSA/DNA and Heritage auctions are doing to our beloved boxing hobby!

[travrosty]

Coming on the heels of psa insisting a wife signed Bob Fitzsimmons autograph is real and refusing to take it down on their psaautographfacts page, we find this beauty being offered up on Heritage of Marlin (sic) Julian. (Notice they call him Marlin Julian in the title, instead of Martin Julian, presumably because Martin crosses his t very high or not on the stem of the T itself, so it doesn't look like it is crossed, and looks like an L, not because they would actually know who Julian is at all.)

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=151332&lotNo=44124

Now not only do they misspell Martin Julian's namein the title, calling him Marlin, they fail to issue their precious Precertification on Martin's autograph due to inconclusive-lack of exemplars? WHAT?

In the description, they finally call him Martin Julian, but say that PSA can't rule on the signature because they don't have exemplars of Julian's autograph.

What are they doing? What is going on here? Are they even trying? Does Heritage have anybody over there that knows boxing one whit?

There are several Martin Julian exemples around, below are two.

But if PSA really wanted to study Martin Julian's handwriting, they should look at the Martin Julian Handwriting they have already given a cert to. They should look at the Bob Fitzsimmons autograph they certed as genuine that was actually signed by Martin Julian himself.

So they call a Bob Fitzsimmons manager signed autograph a genuine Fitzsimmons example, but then can't certify a manager signed autograph of himself? What the heck Joe Orlando, Steve Grad? And what is Heritage doing over there. Chris Ivy, are you paying attention?

Here is a page that details the entire Martin Julian signed Fitzsimmons autograph that PSA certed as a genuine Fitzsimmons. There is your Julian handwriting right there for you in black and white, PSA!!!

Why do we put up with it? Heritage, please get a boxing expert in there, pronto, PSA, please get a boxing expert on board your company. The Julian is real, but psa doesnt know it? Heritage calls him Marlin? Somebody buy this Martin Julian cut and bring it to Pawn Stars please. I always wanted to see the 'deer in the headlights' look up close. This was an easy call to anyone who knows boxing autographs, but they made it a tough call, so tough they couldn't opine? why?


Do we know why this is? Do they know boxing autographs? see bottom of page for my friend 8 ball's prediction.



http://www.fighttoys.com/lawsuitPSAnonauthenticfitz.htm

[thecatspajamas]

Coming on the heels of psa insisting a wife signed Bob Fitzsimmons autographs is real and refusing to take it down on their psaautographfacts page, we find this beauty being offered up on Heritage of Marlin (sic) Julian. (Notice they call him Marlin Julian in the title, instead of Martin Julian, presumably because Martin crosses his t very high or not on the stem of the T itself, so it doesn't look like it is crossed, and looks like an L, not because they would actually know who Julian is at all.)

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=151332&lotNo=44124

Now not only do they misspell Martin Julian's namein the title, calling him Marlin, they fail to issue their precious Precertification on Martin's autograph due to inconclusive-lack of exemplars? WHAT?

In the description, they finally call him Martin Julian, but say that PSA can't rule on the signature because they don't have exemplars of Julian's autograph.

What are they doing? What is going on here? Are they even trying? Does Heritage have anybody over there that knows boxing one whit?

There are several Martin Julian exemples around, below are two.

But if PSA really wanted to study Martin Julian's handwriting, they should look at the Martin Julian Handwriting they have already given a cert to. They should look at the Bob Fitzsimmons autograph they certed as genuine that was actually signed by Martin Julian himself.

So they call a Bob Fitzsimmons manager signed autograph a genuine Fitzsimmons example, but then can't certify a manager signed autograph of himself? What the heck Joe Orlando, Steve Grad? And what is Heritage doing over there. Chris Ivy, are you paying attention?

Here is a page that details the entire Martin Julian signed Fitzsimmons autograph that PSA certed as a genuine Fitzsimmons. There is your Julian handwriting right there for you in black and white, PSA!!!

Why do we put up with it? Heritage, please get a boxing expert in there, pronto, PSA, please get a boxing expert on board your company.

http://www.fighttoys.com/lawsuitPSAnonauthenticfitz.htm

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, all of this is to say that you are pissed at PSA for NOT certifying the Martin Julian autograph?

[thenavarro]

Props to PSA for not certifying an autograph where they felt they didn't have reliable exemplars. Thumbs up!

[travrosty]

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, all of this is to say that you are pissed at PSA for NOT certifying the Martin Julian autograph?

yes because if they knew boxing they would instantly have julian exemplars.

They didn't do their job. Their job is to know Julian's autograph, which is well documented to those who spend time to actually know boxing autographs.

[travrosty]

Props to PSA for not certifying an autograph where they felt they didn't have reliable exemplars. Thumbs up!

Only you would say that. It's like refusing to certify Jack Dempsey due to lack of reliable exemplars. It's stupid.

Reliable exemplars of Julian are well documented and this only shows PSA isn't even in the infancy of knowing boxing autographs if they don't have Martin Julian exemplars on hand, let alone tell just by looking that it's good, which is all I had to do. But Grad must have scratched his head for an hour, or what? I don't know, let's ask him.

Would you go to psa, the WORLD'S boxing experts when they don't have any Julian exemplars? Julian exemplars not hard to come by if they took a minute to look for some. Julian exemplars should be in their database to start, but if not, one phone call to somebody should have gotten them several but they don't know what to do. It's only boxing to them.

Tom Sayers they certed, with no exemplars!

Martin Julian - they can't when several exemplars are availabel. People actually pay this company money. Can someobody tell me why Heritage even bothers when this is the result?

[thenavarro]

Only you would say that.

?

I feel relatively confident that the large majority of rational autograph collectors (except for the submitter and whomever sold to the submitter) would strongly prefer that they don't certify autographs they are not sure about.

You get all bent because they certed a Sayers supposedly with no exemplars (or at least none that they will share with you), but then out of the other side of your mouth you get bent with them for declining to opine on a different autograph.

Things that make you go hhmmm

[travrosty]

Props to PSA for not certifying an autograph where they felt they didn't have reliable exemplars. Thumbs up!

But Mr. Navarro, they did have an exemplar of Julian's handwriting, the bob fitzsimmons autograph signed by Julian that they certified as a real Fitzsimmons autograph. So they had an exemplar all along!

If they are citing lack of exemplars, why couldn't they do that with the Tom Sayers that they got caught certing?

Please answer.

Why did they pass on certifying a Joe Choynski autograph on two separate ocassions last year for the same auction house, again citing a lack of exemplars, when they had previously certed a Joe Choynski that went to another auction at an earlier date? They must have HAD Choynski exemplars, but then lost them? I don't get it? Did the Choynski exemplars burn up they no longer had them?

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=82803

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=81202

but then oops, here is a choynski they previously certed. with the same no exemplars, I must assume?

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-8717.aspx

Am I the only one seeing a pattern here?



What is this revising history pretending they didn't previously cert autograph they now claim they don't have exemplars for?

They had already certed a Martin Julian, it just happened to be PSA claiming a Bob Fitzsimmons autograph that Julian ghost signed for Bob.

[travrosty]

I feel relatively confident that the large majority of rational autograph collectors (except for the submitter and whomever sold to the submitter) would strongly prefer that they don't certify autographs they are not sure about.

You get all bent because they certed a Sayers supposedly with no exemplars (or at least none that they will share with you), but then out of the other side of your mouth you get bent with them for declining to opine on a different autograph.

Things that make you go hhmmm

Mr. Navarro, they pulled the Tom Sayers cert admitting they didn't have exemplars, but nice try. There is zero chance that PSA has exemplars that the boxing autograph community doesn't have after 50 years of sharing exemplars between dedicated and experienced hobbyists.

The question you have to ask yourself is why aren't they sure about this Julian autograph? They claim to be WORLDS experts! I didn't have to pull up any exemplars of Julian for me to know it is good because I had seen Julian's autograph before and this one is textbook. Steve Grad, the world boxing expert must not have had the same experience in boxing autographs. That is what makes me go hmmmm- why people think they are the worlds experts and know boxing but continuously boot the ball on it.

PSA claims no exemplars. There are easily exemplars of Julian around for anyone who wants to spend a modicum of time looking for them, which they must not.

It's THEIR JOB to know these autographs, and claiming no exemplars when there are easily exemplars to be had, is not doing their job in my book. Who looked at these autographs for Heritage? Did they even know who Martin Julian was?

Go ahead and submit a Jack Dempsey to an auction house and when PSA claims they can't opine due to a lack of exemplars, then go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt and tell them you are glad they are honest and won't give their opinion on an autograph they aren't sure about because they can't find any Jack Dempsey autographs to compare them to.

It doesn't work. We know you are a PSA supporter so no matter how bad they screw up you will love them. Well, good for you.

And where is your appreciation for PSA doing the right thing and admitting no exemplars when they certed a Joe Choynski as real and now claim no exemplars?????? Can you answer that, Mr. Navarro? They get away with it because the Mr. Navarro's of the world let them get away with it and always have numerous excuses on hand why they shouldn't DO THEIR JOB they claim they are the world's experts at? If they are the world's experts, why is it they aren't as good as I am at boxing autographs? Does that make me the solar system expert?

[thenavarro]

Please answer.



I'm not omnipotent. I don't know why they changed course if in fact they used to cert autographs without exemplars.

Perhaps, they are learning from their past and are making an effort to change in the current and future.

I do know, that I would prefer they don't certify autographs that they either don't have exemplars of, or are no longer comfortable with their exemplar database for that signer.

That's what they are supposed to do. So props to them as I mentioned above.

(and please just call me Mike, that Mr. nonsense makes me feel old :) Although my hair has it's fair share of greys now, I'm probably around the same age range as you, if I had to guess I'd place you around 42 or so)

Mike

[johnmh71]

I feel relatively confident that the large majority of rational autograph collectors (except for the submitter and whomever sold to the submitter) would strongly prefer that they don't certify autographs they are not sure about.

You get all bent because they certed a Sayers supposedly with no exemplars (or at least none that they will share with you), but then out of the other side of your mouth you get bent with them for declining to opine on a different autograph.

Things that make you go hhmmm

+1. He's trying to make Nash proud of him.

[travrosty]

I'm not omnipotent. I don't know why they changed course if in fact they used to cert autographs without exemplars.

Perhaps, they are learning from their past and are making an effort to change in the current and future.

I do know, that I would prefer they don't certify autographs that they either don't have exemplars of, or are no longer comfortable with their exemplar database for that signer.

That's what they are supposed to do. So props to them as I mentioned above.

(and please just call me Mike, that Mr. nonsense makes me feel old :) Although my hair has it's fair share of greys now, I'm probably around the same age range as you, if I had to guess I'd place you around 42 or so)

Mike


Thanks Mike, they arent doing their job if they dont have Julian exemples. They are not suppose to NOT know who martin julian is and have no exemplars of him. They claim to be the best in the world? Are they? How many of these do we have to show? A million I guess because you will never come around.

If Grad looked at these can you really call him an expert. I just showed you Martin Julian exemplars, and if they didn't have those over there at PSA then are they doing their job. These exemplars are not under lock and key, they are on the internet!

http://www.psaautographfacts.com/AutographDetail/61/bob-fitzsimmons

here is their exemplars for Bob Fitzsimmons that they show on autograph facts.

The first one is a wife signed Fitzsimmons that doesnt look like the others?

What's your defense for that one. They already know about it but refuse to take it down. Is that a company that is trying to do it's best to correct their mistakes?

[travrosty]

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

[thenavarro]

And where is your appreciation for PSA doing the right thing and admitting no exemplars when they certed a Joe Choynski as real and now claim no exemplars??????

Can you answer that, Mr. Navarro?



Props for not certing Choynski anymore if they don't have exemplars.

Yes, I can answer that, I just did above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Perhaps you are making a difference Travis (not Mr. Roste) ?

[travrosty]

Mike, this is not a tough boxing autograph to authenticate. Their job is to know it like their job is to know Bob Feller. Claiming no exemplars is ridiculous. If they claimed no Bob Feller exemplars would you defend them? We know better. You know better. They can take it on the chin, they did it to themselves.

[thenavarro]

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

Sure Travis, I'll answer in just a few minutes, give me time to type it out. I can't keep up with the back and forth due to my arthritic fingers. As soon as I post this, I'll begin to reply to the questions in this one.


Mike

[travrosty]

What you don't realize is that you are spending time defending them here and they don't even want to come on here and defend themselves!

They let you do it for them, they don't bother.

Well, they don't have any answer anyway, If you are buddies with them so well, could you tell them to pull the martin julian manager signed autograph of Bob Fitzsimmons off of their psa autograph facts page. maybe they will listen to you as they have heard it from us already and refuse to pull it, even with proof.

It's the first Bob Fitzsimmons example on their autograph facts page of Robert Fitzsimmons.

Thank you Mike.

[thenavarro]

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer
What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"
is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

Let me answer that with the following. I fully realize and understand that the work product of PSA/DNA is not perfect, and in some areas, is severely lacking and irresponsible from time to time. They are NOT a perfect mousetrap, and they are not really designed to be better than any specific individual that has a passion and love and study of certain signatures IMO. They are there to provide a limited service IMO, not a total comprehensive expert analysis, and as long as the user realizes that, it's a good service.

The damand put on them timewise, in my opinion, does not allow for a full comprehensive examination of every item. (irregardless of what their marketing literature or verbage on websites or LOA's or LOR's might state) However, the flip side of that is, the fees that they charge clients, are NOT enough to expect a full comprehensive examination of every item. I, as a customer, realize that I get what I'm willing to pay for, and if I'm not willing to pay a price point that would support a full comprehensive review, then I should not expect perfection.

People want and expect a somewhat reasonable turnaround time, and that leads to assumptions being made sometime, and employees "authenticating" out of their realm at times, and downright carelessness and negligence at other times. Is that the ideal situation? Hell no, but for the limited prices we pay for their services and for the turnaround times we expect, it IS going to happen.

I liken it to myself at times, I'm pretty good at what I do for a living, but admittedly, there are moments in certain days, where I flat out drop the ball. That doesn't mean that I'm not good at what I do, that just means that I'm human like everyone else walking this planet.

I also know that I don't expect them to produce marketing literature saying "hey, we drop the ball sometimes", "we are occasionally careless", "we have certified preprints, secretarials, and autopens","we occasionally pass one without exemplars because it's part of a collection where the ones we do know appear to be real", anymore than I expect Budweiser to produce advertising saying "hey, our beer really doesn't taste great, it's actually kinda nasty, and guess what, it's not really less filling either, it will give you a beer gut". They are in business to sell their service, which they've done a helluva job promoting and marketing, and which is in my opinion, a DECENT service. Not an end all, be all. Sure, there WILL be instances to where their service or opinion flat out sucks, like in some of the instances you point out.

I've found the people (at least the ones that I know or do business with) that work and consult for them to be good, decent, honorable people in dealings that I've had with them personally, both with PSA, and outside of PSA. That's one of the reasons I support Collectors Universe, not because I love everything the company does, but most of the people I've known over the years that have come and gone from there, or are still there, have always treated me with respect and fairness when dealing with them, in all phases, before, during, and even after their stints with CU. I have run across an occasional individual with them that I don't particularly care for, but that is to be expected EVERYWHERE.

I don't know if that sufficiently addresses your questions, but my hands hurt and I'm getting tired of being on the PC for now.


Have a good night,

Mike

[travrosty]

Can you at least admit this "worlds experts" nonsense is all a bunch of baloney? Is it not an embarrassment for them to make that claim?

[sago]

What you don't realize is that you are spending time defending them here and they don't even want to come on here and defend themselves!

They let you do it for them, they don't bother.



Would it be ok to quote this in other threads?

[Forever Young]

Would it be ok to quote this in other threads?

Good God and baby Jesus, please don't encourage him. I beg of thee.

[RichardSimon]

I've found the people (at least the ones that I know or do business with) that work and consult for them to be good, decent, honorable people in dealings that I've had with them personally, both with PSA, and outside of PSA.

Mike

Mike - Just curious, did you ever have any dealings with Steve Rocchi while he was with PSA? And if so, would you include him in your description of PSA people?

[JimStinson]

anymore than I expect Budweiser to produce advertising saying "hey, our beer really doesn't taste great, it's actually kinda nasty, and guess what, it's not really less filling either, it will give you a beer gut". Mike

Did I hear someone say ....BUDWEISER ??? Their advertising says "Its the KING of Beers" ....you mean its not ???

And I read the label and it says "consumption of alcoholic beverages can be harmful to your health" ....What is up with that ???

And last but not least what ticked me off the most is I watched the commercial on TV and two guys uncapped a couple Budweiser's and about a dozen skinny models in bikini's started dancing around their swimming pool. So I tried it and ...no models , no pool ...NOTHING !!! not even a couple fat broads in house dresses ...nada ! Is that what you guys mean by clever marketing ? ...........Cheers !
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

BUYING BASEBALL AUTOGRAPHS
stinsonsports.com

[thenavarro]

Mike - Just curious, did you ever have any dealings with Steve Rocchi while he was with PSA? And if so, would you include him in your description of PSA people?

No sir, to my knowledge I've never had any direct dealings with Steve Rocchi.

Mike

[steve B]

Stuff like this is what I really don't like about autograph collecting.

I'm reasonably sure Travis is right about the exemplars and one is similar to the auction lot, but if someone handed me printouts of the two exemplars he shows with the context of the letter and contract? removed, And asked if they were done by the same person I'd say no.

They don't look at all alike.

So how the heck can anyone reliably authenticate anything, even with exemplars?


Steve B

[shelly]

I will go out on limb here. I would say the tpa's should stay as far away as possible from boxing. It is a lose lose prop.:D

[earlywynnfan]

Good God and baby Jesus, please don't encourage him. I beg of thee.

I think you missed his point. If I'm reading this correctly, I think he's saying you could post the same thing in any Peter Nash or Todd Mueller thread.

Ken

[Forever Young]

I think you missed his point. If I'm reading this correctly, I think he's saying you could post the same thing in any Peter Nash or Todd Mueller thread.

Ken

Awe... Ok... Well...i am sure he will be encouraged either way.

[travrosty]

The Jess Willard signed cut carried that three piece lot in heritage, so they certed that one and the other two?? next lot!

let's just say their skills are not impressive in my opinion. Time to research is valuable, time is money, no soup for you. Next!

[travrosty]

Mike - Just curious, did you ever have any dealings with Steve Rocchi while he was with PSA? And if so, would you include him in your description of PSA people?



Mike, it doesnt matter, are they good at what they do? Is it honest to cert an autograph with no exemplars. PSA and JSA did it with the tom sayers, it is documented, and jsa did it with george dixon. Is that honest?

Is it honest to leave up a bob fitzsimmons autograph on autograph facts after they know it isnt a real bob fitzsimmons autograph and was signed by his wife. is that honest, is that decent, is that helping the collector?

Just a few questions.

[jhs5120]

Would it be ok to quote this in other threads?

Bravo!

[Fuddjcal]

Mike, I have a serious question. If you could be so kind to answer.

What would I have to show you that would make you say "these people don't know what they are doing, because that is just ridiculous and over the line"

is there anything? because i dont think there is anything at this point.

No , but I can say that with 100% certainty that IMHO, you are a boil on the ass of any forum.

WHO CARES ABOUT Joe Choscky and Julian Lennon. Never heard of them and most normal autograph collectors could care LESS. Except moron boxing collectors such as yourself, It's such a speck of the hobby IT DOESNT matter, The more you try to make it matter, the more collectors could car less due to your eyes sight problem and deductive reasoning skills. You can't see clearly when it comes to anything PSA or JSA and also Cant Understand Normal Thinking, so what's the point, except your head.

[Paulanthony]

No , but I can say that with 100% certainty that IMHO, you are a boil on the ass of any forum.

No , but I can say that with 100% certainty that IMHO, you are a boil on the ass of JSA. PSA :D

WHO CARES ABOUT Joe Choscky and Julian Lennon. Never heard of them and most normal autograph collectors could care LESS. Except moron boxing collectors such as yourself, It's such a speck of the hobby IT DOESNT matter, The more you try to make it matter, the more collectors could car less due to your eyes sight problem and deductive reasoning skills. You can't see clearly when it comes to anything PSA or JSA and also Cant Understand Normal Thinking, so what's the point, except your head.

You really should say what's on your mind don't hold back. Reading your post gave me An ice-cream headache.
I don't agree Travis uses deductive reasoning. Just the opposite, His reasoning is based on observations which contrasts with deductive reasoning, his conclusions are arrived at by specific examples of known autographs he has obtained and studied for many years. Which is inductive to support his findings. According to you all Boxing Autograph Collectors are Morons. Travis is a Moron. All Morons are Boxing Collectors. I happen to be one of those Morons who like Boxing Autographs. I also like reading the expertise opinion of Travis. In the autograph world of boxing you could say Travis is a Sniper. If the experts don't get it right they end up in the cross hairs. The bottom line is you can't get sniped if you get it right.

[travrosty]

Mike, you criticize me and a few others that show these mistakes, and you wish we wouldn't. But think about it, just when did psa start this "no opinion due to a lack of exemplars"?

It only started happening just about 1 year ago, before that I cannot remember them ever saying that on a boxing autograph. Why is that?

It's because we held their feet to the fire. We made it better for collectors by pressuring psa and jsa to do the right thing and not just hand out a cert for the Tom, Dick and Harry boxing autographs. But thanks for slamming us for helping the collector in this way.

And when psa SHOULD issue a cert to an autograph that easily has exemplars avaiable, but instead say there is none, I am going to hold their feet to the fire for those too, because they refused to do a modicum of work to find them. 2 minutes on the internet on a a g00gle search to find Martin Julian's signature on his own letterhead and on a fight contract is not asking too much.

[toybulldog]

Why did they pass on certifying a Joe Choynski autograph on two separate ocassions last year for the same auction house, again citing a lack of exemplars, when they had previously certed a Joe Choynski that went to another auction at an earlier date? They must have HAD Choynski exemplars, but then lost them? I don't get it? Did the Choynski exemplars burn up they no longer had them?

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=82803

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=81202

but then oops, here is a choynski they previously certed. with the same no exemplars, I must assume?

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-8717.aspx

Good catch, it seems your evidence based post shows PSA/DNA doesn't perform the service they claim they are performing here. Their statement from the PSA website is not accurate:
http://www.fighttoys.com/PSA%20authentication%20process%201b%20PSA.jpg

And their claim of an "autograph authentication process"?
http://www.fighttoys.com/PSA%20authentication%20process%201a%20PSA.jpg

So if there were no exemplars for the SCP Choynski how could there be an "autograph authentication process"? Where is the integrity in that?

Was this a gift authentication with absolutely no knowledge of the subject's autograph or handwriting?

[travrosty]

exactly, that is why there are these questions that need to be answered. where is joe o. or steve grad to answer them? they know, but they won't speak. What defense could they give anyway.

how could a joe choynski autograph be certed, and then later a choynski being passed over by a cliam of no exemplars. They must not have did what the coa said and compare autographs to exemplars they have encountered during their careers.


were they gifts with no exemplars to be found, or did they suddenly "find religion" and figure out they might need some exemplars to start certing these autographs. Certainly the sayers was certed, but did they have exemplars? Where is the Sayers exemplar? all the collectors combined sharing exemplars for decades cant come up with a sayers, but psa has 'em. Where. if they don't then why isn't it fraud to issue a cert for a sayers with no exemplars when they say they only issue certs by comparing autographs to exemplars?

[travrosty]

When they asked me to join as a consultant, and look at boxing autographs with them, they told me in a correspondence. "We need help with boxing"

If they need help with it, why are they currently doing it. I still don't see anyone on their list that is a boxing guy.

Does that sound like the WORLD'S experts to anybody? The whole world over there is nobody better at boxing autographs than them because they are the whole worlds experts at it?

[toybulldog]

Speaking of gifts, this one as atrocious as the exposed Rocky Marciano (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=157842&highlight=rocky+marciano). An alleged autograph of heavyweight champion Jim Corbett. The photograph is merely labeled "Jim Corbett age 10" in another hand but has been auctioned off as a later signature by Corbett himself. In case you're finding it hard to decipher' "Jim" is at top left with "Corbett" underneath. "age" at top right with "10" below.
http://www.fighttoys.com/Corbett,Jas.%20J.%20non%20authentic%203b%20SR.JPG
http://www.fighttoys.com/Corbett,Jas.%20J.%20non%20authentic%203c%20SR.JPG

Would like to invite this PSA/DNA company to come on here and share just a few consistent exemplars that would help support the legitimacy of this pre-certified Jim Corbett autograph.
http://www.fighttoys.com/Corbett,Jas.%20J.%2040%20comparison%20SR.jpg
Does our evidence point to a legitimate Jim Corbett autograph or a bogus pre-certification to add false value to a non-authentic item?

[travrosty]

It's absolutely ridiculous to call that a Corbett signature, but again, Steve Grad, the king of the boxing authenticators, gives it a thumbs up PRE-CERT.

wow! please Mr. Grad, show me the exemplars you have that in any way confirms this authentication??? I want to learn, Mr. Grad.

It's totally unbelievable they are allowed to get away with this. They turn zero dollar items into ....

[thenavarro]

Travis typed: "Mike, you criticize me and a few others that show these mistakes, and you wish we wouldn't."

I reply: Travis, I don't recall ever indicating that I wish you wouldn't. Quite frankly, I find a lot of your posts entertaining for various reasons. By all means, post all you want to, type your fingers off. If I wished you wouldn't post, I would simply block you, it's not hard to do. Out of curiousity, which others did I criticize? I know it wasn't Mark O., as his posts are usually quite informative with detailed illustrations and what appears to be a fairly large exemplar database, and appears to be well organized at that. Usually when he posts, he does a good job of backing things up.

Travis typed: "But think about it, just when did psa start this "no opinion due to a lack of exemplars"? It only started happening just about 1 year ago, before that I cannot remember them ever saying that on a boxing autograph. Why is that?"

I reply: I thought I already addressed that in one of my replies earlier, perhaps you missed it with the flurry of replies you were typing. Here, I'll put it here again. I typed "Perhaps you are making a difference Travis (not Mr. Roste) ?"

Travis typed: "It's because we held their feet to the fire. We made it better for collectors by pressuring psa and jsa to do the right thing and not just hand out a cert for the Tom, Dick and Harry boxing autographs. But thanks for slamming us for helping the collector in this way."

I reply: You are welcome I guess. I didn't slam you for doing that, I slammed you for railing on PSA/DNA for not certing the Martin Julian autograph, which I found to be a direct contradiction to when you slam them for certing without exemplars.

Travis typed: "And when psa SHOULD issue a cert to an autograph that easily has exemplars avaiable, but instead say there is none, I am going to hold their feet to the fire for those too, because they refused to do a modicum of work to find them. 2 minutes on the internet on a a g00gle search to find Martin Julian's signature on his own letterhead and on a fight contract is not asking too much."

I reply: I'll make a note to do a google search next time I need exemplars, and another note to make myself realize that 2 minutes is all it takes to establish images I find on google as reliable exemplars. Just as an FYI, I've seen forgeries on legitimate letterhead and on contracts signed by proxies. Just because items are on letterhead and/or contracts does not necessarily make them legitimate as I'm sure you know. Perhaps the ones for Martin Julian are legit, I've got no idea as I've never googled him/her and don't plan on starting.

Have a good night,

Mike

[Fuddjcal]

You really should say what's on your mind don't hold back. Reading your post gave me An ice-cream headache.
I don't agree Travis uses deductive reasoning. Just the opposite, His reasoning is based on observations which contrasts with deductive reasoning, his conclusions are arrived at by specific examples of known autographs he has obtained and studied for many years. Which is inductive to support his findings. According to you all Boxing Autograph Collectors are Morons. Travis is a Moron. All Morons are Boxing Collectors. I happen to be one of those Morons who like Boxing Autographs. I also like reading the expertise opinion of Travis. In the autograph world of boxing you could say Travis is a Sniper. If the experts don't get it right they end up in the cross hairs. The bottom line is you can't get sniped if you get it right.

nicely put Paul, Thanks

[travrosty]

that's right, if they get it right like they are suppose to, they got nothing to worry about. i wouldnt even bother if they were good at what they claim they are good at. I only comment on their lack of skills because what they are doing is so egregious, so ridiculous, so blatantly wrong that collectors deserve to know what they are getting themselves into when they see one of these magic golden ticket 'certs' from a company that doesnt know joe louis from louis armstrong.