Opinions Wanted

[MK]

Would love to hear pennant collectors opinions on this ebay listing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-Antique-Indianapolis-ABCs-Negro-League-Vintage-Baseball-Full-Size-Pennant-/121134545260?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item1c342e796c

[Leon]

I am not really a pennant collector but do have a few felts and associated items. That is a beautiful pennant and the seller is very experienced. It will be interesting to see where it ends in price.

[slidekellyslide]

Without provenance that's just another pennant to me. He gives zero back story for it...where was it found? Were there any accompanying items to explain that this really is a Negro League pennant?

It was not uncommon for organizations of all types to use that type of lettering layed over one another for a logo.

I doubt there is any provenance at all otherwise it would have been added to the auction info.

[sayhey24]

I agree that without provenance, it could be anything. Those are three pretty common letters -- any athletic club that starts with a B would be BAC.
Also, the pennant is not a match for any of the other logos shown. Some are similar, but not the same.

Greg

[william_9]

Could also be B____ Agricultural College. That would make sense too with the '13 on it. Beautiful pennant but too many possibilities. Also, being a felt applique, which takes a lot of time to make, I can more easily see it being a class or athletic club pennant than a retail souvenir. Maybe I'm wrong, but most souvenir pennants are screened or stenciled, not sewn.

[Shoeless Moe]

The 1st seller called it something completely different

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-ABC-Class-of-13-Sewn-Letter-Pennant-Empire-Novelty-Co-Watertown-NY-Old-NR-/321147319282?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item4ac5df33f2#ht_212wt_1429

The buyer and now 2nd seller of it is gonna make a bundle from the story he has attached to it.

[thecatspajamas]

Good catch on the re-list. Here is another couple of pennants that the original seller states came from the same group of sewn "showroom" pennants.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Camden-NY-and-Carthage-Sewn-Letter-Pennant-Empire-Novelty-Co-Watertown-NY-NR-Old-/321147309266?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item4ac5df0cd2&nma=true&si=Dh5T%252BGiGqb8PZGUcw5j60hsUZJI%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Not sure that it proves anything one way or the other as to what ABC stands for, but for anyone looking to sink big bucks into this one, I think it would be worth discussing where they came from with the original seller.

[WillowGrove]

And this thread is yet another reason why this forum is so awesome. I shall continue to watch this item but no longer with the intent of bidding. good stuff guys. thanks

peter

[Shoeless Moe]

maybe....

Appalachian Bible College

American Baptist College

ABC University of Atlanta

ABC University LA

Looks to be some ABC High Schools as well

Who knows what else there was back in 1913, these just came up in a Google search.

[slidekellyslide]

maybe....

Appalachian Bible College

American Baptist College

ABC University of Atlanta

ABC University LA

Looks to be some ABC High Schools as well

Who knows what else there was back in 1913, these just came up in a Google search.

And knowing what we know now about this pennant I'd be safe in saying there is NO WAY this is a Negro League pennant.

[lefty147]

+1

[perezfan]

This one brings all-new meaning to the term "Leap of Faith" :eek:

[murphusa]

Very honest description of the pennan the first time around.

[ctownboy]

I have little to no experience concerning vintage pennants. That being said, to me, the quality of that pennant looks much better than something that someone could have bought as a souvenir at a Major League game in 1913, let alone a Negro League game......

David

[slidekellyslide]

I emailed the seller about provenance and he said he is as sure this is an Indianapolis ABC's pennant as REA was sure this was a Boston Red Sox pennant and not a Spartanburg, Brantford, Danville, Superior or one of the many other "Red Sox" teams that existed in 1912.


http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2010/1238.html

I'll give him credit though he did not hide the fact that he bought this off of ebay just recently and told me exactly what the first seller mentioned about the pennants.

[prewarsports]

Teams themselves did not produce pennants back in 1913,the owner would contract out with a company to make them or a company would make them and pitch them to the owner to sell at the ballpark. They were expensive compared to other novalties of the day (which is why so few exist) and the only way these teams would make money is because they had a stable place (home ballpark) to sell them in large numbers (by their standards) at and a lot of time to do it. There is simply no way that a travelling Black Baseball team in 1913 would have found this to be a good money making venture. People were not chomping at the bit to fly the flags of black baseball teams in 1913. Its just a cultural fact that can't be ignored. Unless the team themselves made a few to advertise the team while travelling (which would have been flown at the games and destroyed by use and weather) there is no way pennants like this were even made. Heck they didn't even make up actual TICKETS for most Negro League/Black Baseball games because of cost unless the team they were playing (usually a white team with more money) had them made up beforehand and used what was available, so there is no way they are just making pennants like this in back rooms somewhere and bringing them along for the ride to try and sell. The ONLY advertising you see for early black baseball games of this era are paper flyers and handbills used to advertise the game, because they were cheap, portable, and could be given away for free!

[slidekellyslide]

Excellent points, Rhys.

[tcornett]

The logos on the pennant do not even match the logos on the pictures that are provided on the hats and jersey. The top and bottom of the A and the ends of the C are different.

Also, they are comparing it to other sales that realized 8k and above. If they really thinks it is real and should be compared to these items, why is it starting it at 14.99 without reserve?

When I see thing that are compared to very expensive items with a very low starting bid, I am naturally suspicious that the seller really believes they have a real item.


Just my thoughts when I saw this.

Tim

[Leon]

It looks like it might go fairly high. That's too bad. If ebay still showed bidders they could be alerted to this thread. Wishful thinking..

[Duluth Eskimo]

Rhys is right on the money and, as usual, is making good points. No way this would be for a negro league team.

[Shoeless Moe]

While the seller does find some good diamonds in the rough, this not being one of them, you can view his buys here on ebay b4 he puts them up for sale:

ebay seller id: djmaus


I wish I had the time to re-sell as much as he does, he actually led me to find the Shot Heard Round The World Ticket that I bought for $200 and sold for $1700. I believe that's why he's a bit upset with me, but I do give him credit and I applaud you for helping me in my side job, it's because of him, he got me started!

It's easy way to pick up an extra 2, 3, 5, 10 grand a year.

You search on Ebay under Vintage Sports Memorabilia - and he does his best work with Tickets, Programs, and as we now see Pennants.......but just search daily and people put wrong descriptions for example list Yankees but not Babe Ruth, or Boston but don't list Red Sox, various omissions then you re-list with a more detailed description, he uses 2 lines for maximum effectiveness. You can make great money, I highly recommend it, let me know if you need any tips.

[slidekellyslide]

Check the link again and read down the page...apparently this guy has been waging war against us and nobody even noticed. I guess we've been picking on his auctions for a long time.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-Antique-Indianapolis-ABCs-Negro-League-Vintage-Baseball-Full-Size-Pennant-/121134545260?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item1c342e796c

[thecatspajamas]

Wow, that's some very prolific writing on his part. I don't think I've ever seen so many updates in a single eBay listing. Wonder if he realizes he could just as easily come on here and post directly, instead of wondering aloud if anyone here is reading his responses on his eBay page?

[slidekellyslide]

Wow, that's some very prolific writing on his part. I don't think I've ever seen so many updates in a single eBay listing. Wonder if he realizes he could just as easily come on here and post directly, instead of wondering aloud if anyone here is reading his responses on his eBay page?

I checked the auction occasionally during the week to see how it was doing, but never even bothered to scroll down until this morning. I don't think all of that banter helps his cause with new bidders coming along and reading that whole thing. He obviously doesn't spend much time here if he thinks we only pick on him. I certainly recall a conversation about that 1915 Lincoln Giants pennant he points out...And I think with no takers on ebay at $500 that most people believe that is not a Negro League pennant.

[Scott Garner]

FWIW, to be fair, I believe he did a very good job of supporting many of his points...

For full disclosure, I have no skin in this game as I am certainly no expert on vintage pennants. I'm just an interested observer.

In an earlier net54 post I commented that David Maus is an ethical eBay seller. I also believe that he is one of the very best when it comes to thoroughly researching vintage pieces, especially vintage baseball ephemera. FWIW, I would rank him in the upper 2% in this regard, BTW...

[slidekellyslide]

FWIW, to be fair, I believe he did a very good job of supporting many of his points...

For full disclosure, I have no skin in this game as I am certainly no expert on vintage pennants. I'm just an interested observer.

I have stated in an earlier net54 post that David Maus is an ethical eBay seller. I also believe that he is one of the very best when it comes to thoroughly researching vintage pieces, especially vintage baseball ephemera. I would rank him in the upper 2% in this regard, BTW...

I do believe him to be very knowledgeable, but listing this pennant as a Negro League pennant is a stretch. And yes David, I know you're reading this...I also believe a lot of what is presented in this hobby is a huge stretch and a thorough reading of our archives will show you that we do indeed take on the auction houses and other ebay sellers. I didn't start this thread, I just offered my opinion.

[MK]

Well despite his being so upset with me for posing an innocent question, and for the rest of you for giving your opinions, this pennant sold for $765. He didn't make a friend with me.

[slidekellyslide]

It's not even over yet...still has a couple hours left. I think that's crazy, but people are free to spend their money however they like.

[prewarsports]

I dont know the seller and certainly am not picking on him. It would not matter to me one bit who the seller was, but there simply is no way this was a Black Baseball pennant. He provided a ton of evidence to support that the PCL (huge league with TONS of money) and of course Major League Teams were making pennats but black teams and low level Minor League teams simply were ot making pennants in the 1910's. Where they played their games means nothing, it is all about the dollar and Black Baseball was not big enough business until well into the 1920's to even consider an item like this as a money maker. I stand behind everything I said above, because it is correct. Sometimes people want something to be true so badly that they find ways to justify their beliefs without compromising their morals. I do not believe this seller is a dishonest person or bad in any way, I just think they refuse to look at this item objectively because they have a vested interest in its outcome.

This (if actually an "ABC's" pennant) would be a $20,000 item. Why did it sell for $765? Because the free market spoke loud and clear and only a handful of people refused to listen. No major auction house will ever touch this item, but by chance one of them did I would say the SAME THINGS to them.

Nothing against the seller, I dont know the guy from Adam, but what I said is correct no matter who is trying to sell it.

[perezfan]

Well, he was critical of me specifically, at the very bottom of his listing. But I still maintain that this one required a leap of faith. If indeed, it's a $20K pennant that sold for $765, I think it's safe to say that big spenders were hesitant to take the leap.

He did make some good points in referencing completed auctions with some big prices realized on generic-type pennants. A few could definitely be traced to the corresponding teams in question. But others definitely required "leaps" of various sizes. Wish he would have posted here, as he obviously is well-versed. It would have made for a more interesting debate.

[slidekellyslide]

He sends stuff to auction houses (ie Negro League ticket stubs to H&S) so why didn't he send this pennant to an auction house where he undoubtedly would have gotten much more money?