How about some answers for this? Where are you Peter Nash?

[Leon]

Since Peter Nash seems to get a free pass maybe one of his supporters here can ask him about this? I would like to see a report of all of the fraud and misdeeds he has done in the hobby?


http://luckeycards.com/nash1c.jpg

http://luckeycards.com/nash2c.jpg

http://luckeycards.com/nash3c.jpg

http://luckeycards.com/nash4c.jpg

http://luckeycards.com/nash5c.jpg

[shelly]

leon, no one said he is a good guy.
I just wonder if you belive what he writes on his blog to be fact or fiction.

[Leon]

leon, no one said he is a good guy.
I just wonder if you belive what he writes on his blog to be fact or fiction.
Both probably....but I haven't completely poured over his site. I have read articles on there though. No doubt a lot of what he says is probably true. I was just wondering if we could get an update on this fairly current, sports memorabilia related case? Besides having that one document I don't know very much about it.

[travrosty]

of course what hos says is true.

its the old misdirection play.

[slidekellyslide]

How are we to know what he writes is true or false? His site is all about agenda. He can barely write a single article without mentioning Rob Lifson 10 times, even if that article has nothing to do with Lifson. His agenda is so transparent it's hilarious. Reminds me of a certain poster from here who was banished so he started his own forum with little sticky threads railing on Leon and Net54. He had only 2 or 3 regular posters to his forum and they were probably his own sockpuppets. I'm pretty sure he's in prison now.

[Leon]

....

its the old misdirection play.

Yes, some have thought that for a long time....

[travrosty]

every time something that comes up that a few don't like, then this comes up. nothing new, misdirection.

Heritage can't tell a preprint autograph from a real one, so kill the messenger because it must be peter nash's fault.

The alternative that they want is to bury the stories and make sure no one knows about heritage or other tpa's boneheaded moves so everybody on the current gravy train can all make money and the collectors who get caught on the receiving end HOLDING THE BAG end up paying the price for a few protected TPA's and sellers getting off SCOT free for their misdeeds. nice.

[slidekellyslide]

everytime something that comes up that a few don't like, then this comes up. nothing new, misdirection. Heritage can't tell a preprint autograph from a real one, so kill the messenger because it must be peter nash's fault.

You ever asked yourself why someone with a shady past (Present?) is acting the crusader of the hobby without addressing his own part in it? You seem to really be getting cozy with Nash. It's really hard to view you as a crusader for truth Travis when the company you keep is dirty.

[Leon]

every time something that comes up that a few don't like, then this comes up. nothing new, misdirection.

Heritage can't tell a preprint autograph from a real one, so kill the messenger because it must be peter nash's fault.

The alternative that they want is to bury the stories and make sure no one knows about heritage or other tpa's boneheaded moves so everybody on the current gravy train can all make money and the collectors who get caught on the receiving end HOLDING THE BAG end up paying the price for a few protected TPA's and sellers getting off SCOT free for their misdeeds. nice.

If Heritage made mistake(s) then they should fix them. There are always two sides to a story too. Who is protecting anyone? I don't see any of that. So, can't we have 2 threads going at one time? Since you are posting on the Halls of Shame blog I just figured you could get us an update? Peter isn't banned from this site. He is only banned when he enters it under false pretenses, as anyone would be. Have him come on here and answer a few questions Travis.

[travrosty]

but they dont fix them and that is the problem leon. Both me and m.o from fighttoys have privately helped them and tried to keep the bad boxing off their site and we get patted on the head 'good boy but we will take it from here' type attitude from them and Chris Ivy who couldn't tell boxing from a paper bag, and we both end up with banned accounts and we are the top two guys in boxing autographs in the country or so we are told ,(we don't like to brag like psa). so what's up with that? please answer, leon, i would be interested in what you have to say about that?

[CW]

People in glass houses...

Some sayings never go out of style.

[thetruthisoutthere]

every time something that comes up that a few don't like, then this comes up. nothing new, misdirection.

Heritage can't tell a preprint autograph from a real one, so kill the messenger because it must be peter nash's fault.

The alternative that they want is to bury the stories and make sure no one knows about heritage or other tpa's boneheaded moves so everybody on the current gravy train can all make money and the collectors who get caught on the receiving end HOLDING THE BAG end up paying the price for a few protected TPA's and sellers getting off SCOT free for their misdeeds. nice.

Misdirection, Travis?

You mean it's okay for you to post your criticisms and tirades against PSA and JSA, but no one is allowed to post anything critical about Peter Nash?

[travrosty]

no they can, but funny they only post when the posts about heritage or their buddies come first. thats the misdirection. if they were really interested in getting answers about nash, they would post it on a lazy wednesday afternoon,

i post about tpa's when no one else is posting about anything, because my posts aren't predicated on anyone else posts.

the misdirection posts only come from leon after i mention hauls of shame and especially heritage auctions, one of their sponsors for the net54 dinner and an advertiser on this site. only then does the long knives come out after nash. where are the nash posts the rest of the time? BTW i dont mind leon speaking his mind and saying what he wants! its a free country!

if heritage really wanted to punish me they would re-instate my account. that would hurt.

[travrosty]

Leon, I mention a lot of the same stuff as nash does, but only on my own. where is the bash roste threads, where is the looking at my past, and see of i broke the tinker toys in kindergarten, or sampled a grape from the grocery store?

the stuff he says is relevant and true. you dont like the source? then just mentally take his name off these true articles and put mine on. there- problem solved!

[shelly]

Dan, not to get in a fight but he does go after more than one person. You can say what you want but I find many of things that he writes about to be interesting and helpful to the hobby. If it was all about Rob you would be correct but I see Haritage, Huggins and Scott mentiioned plenty of times.

[slidekellyslide]

Dan, not to get in a fight but he does go after more than one person. You can say what you want but I find many of things that he writes about to be interesting and helpful to the hobby. If it was all about Rob you would be correct but I see Haritage, Huggins and Scott mentiioned plenty of times.

His website is all about cleaning up the hobby, right? Why no mention of the Cooperstown forger? Why no mention of the very public misdeeds he has been involved with?

Shelly, if you hadn't done your time I wouldn't believe a word you say, but you got on the right path.

[earlywynnfan]

Travis, I like you and am thankful for sharing your boxing expertise with me. However, your constant replies in threads like this make you look like a patsy.

Should PSA and JSA come clean? Yes.
Should Heritage and H&S come clean? Yes.
Should SGC and the rest of the world come clean? Yes.
Should Peter Nash come clean? YES!!

Your inability to agree with this is pathetic. With the exception of Chris, nobody on this forum gives PSA, JSA, or Heritage a free pass. I think you seem to be reading these threads with cloudy vision. I just read the whole Mantle/HA thread that started yesterday, and NOBODY is defending them. Nobody. Yet, to read your posts, we're all fools and it's up to You, Mueller, and Nash to save us all from our misguided failings.

Yet you have no idea how many people you turn off because you are physically incapable of saying anything negative about Mueller or Nash. With all due respect, take your lips off their asses and be willing to admit their mistakes, too.

Ken

[travrosty]

you wouldnt care either way, so "so what?"

are mueller and nash a third party authenticator or auction house that contract with them?

there you have your answer.


What do you mean nobody is defending them? leon started a whole new thread because i mentioned heritage.


"With the exception of Chris, nobody on this forum gives PSA, JSA, or Heritage a free pass." I am glad you see it my way, but there are also plenty of others that give psa, jsa a free pass.


Mueller stands behind everything he sells with a 100% money back guarantee. psa, jsa don't, so what's the comparison? I have never said Mueller doesn't make any mistakes, He himself never says that, and has refunded to people who didn't even buy from him. So what's the problem?

I just love these fights, because I have nothing to hide.

[earlywynnfan]

Not only don't you have anything to hide, you also have your hypocrisy to hold on to.

This thread is about Nash. That's it. Nash. The same Nash who defrauded our hobby for a TON of money.

Or is that just fine by you??

[shelly]

His website is all about cleaning up the hobby, right? Why no mention of the Cooperstown forger? Why no mention of the very public misdeeds he has been involved with?

Shelly, if you hadn't done your time I wouldn't believe a word you say, but you got on the right path.

The right path started over 14 years ago. Thanks for nothing compliment: I really have no idea why you even say it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

you wouldnt care either way, so "so what?"

are mueller and nash a third party authenticator or auction house that contract with them?

there you have your answer.


What do you mean nobody is defending them? leon started a whole new thread because i mentioned heritage.


"With the exception of Chris, nobody on this forum gives PSA, JSA, or Heritage a free pass." I am glad you see it my way, but there are also plenty of others that give psa, jsa a free pass.


Mueller stands behind everything he sells with a 100% money back guarantee. psa, jsa don't, so what's the comparison? I have never said Mueller doesn't make any mistakes, He himself never says that, and has refunded to people who didn't even buy from him. So what's the problem?

I just love these fights, because I have nothing to hide.

I didn't know you could read Leon's mind, Travis.

How do you know that Leon started this "Nash" thread because you mentioned "Heritage?"

[slidekellyslide]

The right path started over 14 years ago. Thanks for nothing compliment: I really have no idea why you even say it.

You misinterpret me...you haven't hidden your past and you've made no excuses for it...you did your time and you've come here to help out hobbyists with your knowledge of forgeries. That's admirable. Peter Nash is running from his past refusing to pay for his misdeeds. Not admirable.

[travrosty]

I didn't know you could read Leon's mind, Travis.

How do you know that Leon started this "Nash" thread because you mentioned "Heritage?"

Because every time i mention heritage (seems like every time) a nash thread pops up, thats why. Where you been? ZIf I mention halls of shame, there is a chance for a nash thread, halls of shame and heritage, it's almost a guarantee.

If you don't believe me just ask leon what possessed him to start a nash thread TODAY of all days, just out of the blue?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Because every time i mention heritage a nash thread pops up, thats why. Where you been?

If you don't believe me just ask leon what possessed him to start a nash thread TODAY of all days, just out of the blue?

You mean the same way your cowardly buddies over at ANL trash me every time I mention I Todd Mueller?

Of course, Leon posted this under his name, while your buddies over at ANL do it anonymously (like cowards do).

[travrosty]

Having anonymous buddies doesn't make sense. I can only have buddies that I know about.

anyway, so what does that have to do with me, this thread, leon, or anything? why a tangent that is a total non sequiter? I am responsible for what I say, leon for what he says, then we get this anonymous posters on another site and now it's about you? I don't get it?

I didn't say Leon couldn't or shouldn't post any thread he wants, leon has the freedom to post what he wants, i just said it was a misdirection. how is anything said about you a misdirection? it's always about you and no one knows why? I am dealing with what is said and posted here, you know net54baseball.com? hello?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Having anonymous buddies doesn't make sense. I can only have buddies that I know about.

anyway, so what does that have to do with me, this thread, leon, or anything?

Read it again, Travis.

It reads "cowardly buddies," not "anonymous buddies."

In other words, your "cowardly buddies" post "anonymously," as we all know they do.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Because every time i mention heritage (seems like every time) a nash thread pops up, thats why. Where you been? ZIf I mention halls of shame, there is a chance for a nash thread, halls of shame and heritage, it's almost a guarantee.

If you don't believe me just ask leon what possessed him to start a nash thread TODAY of all days, just out of the blue?

I guess Leon just has great timing.

[travrosty]

Read it again, Travis.

It reads "cowardly buddies," not "anonymous buddies."

In other words, your "cowardly buddies" post "anonymously," as we all know they do.

if you know who they are they are not anonymous. I don't know who they are. Share any proof you have that identifies them. I have never, ever received any communication from anyone I know that says they post on that site. sorry, bark up wrong tree.

and yes, leon's timing is fabulous.

[Exhibitman]

Leon, I mention a lot of the same stuff as nash does, but only on my own. where is the bash roste threads, where is the looking at my past, and see of i broke the tinker toys in kindergarten, or sampled a grape from the grocery store?

the stuff he says is relevant and true. you dont like the source? then just mentally take his name off these true articles and put mine on. there- problem solved!

It is considerably more substantial than that, Travis. Nash has multiple judgments against him for cheating people in the memorabilia business. He got his own father to misappropriate $50,000.00 from the parochial school where he worked so that he wouldn't lose his house in foreclosure. He rants and raves against REA but doesn't mention that REA has a six-figure judgment against him. Nash admitted in court that he had defrauded REA. He admitted in court to not filing income tax returns for several years. In short, he is not by any means a minor scofflaw or perpetrator of innocent childhood mischief, but is instead a habitual cheat. Any time anything he propagates comes up people have a right to know what type of low character is behind the information. They can judge for themselves whether the data is accurate or not, but the character of the speaker is relevant and not "misdirection."

Now, if you want to align yourself with that sort of guttersnipe, that is your business. Just be aware that many people here who are aware of Nash's 'character'' then will discount the credibility of your opinions, regardless of its merits.

[travrosty]

It's misdirection plain and simple.

The truth shouldnt count because they dont like the source.

If the information on these 'mistakes' aka total screwups are not true, let's see some counterpoints.

I am not here to account for anybody else but myself so don't try that game on pinning stuff on me. It's baloney.

Please post the names of all of your friends, associates, contacts, so we can comb through them and tell you who you should and should not associate with. thanks for complying with this simple request.

[travrosty]

I would like to know why Leon isn't similarly interested in Mike Guttierez and the Hall of Fame? Has that been answered by Mike here or elsewhere? Seems to me there is a double standard in Leon's world? I should start a thread on that.

[Runscott]

Travis, this thread is about Peter Nash - if you would address points head-on, and quit deflecting, at least we might begin to understand why you have let Nash off the hook. I appreciate your contributions to the hobby, and have enjoyed our exchanges, so don't take this the wrong way.

This is one of the few threads I can post in where I only have to worry about one person beating me up over my opinion ;)

[travrosty]

Travis, this thread is about Peter Nash - if you would address points head-on, and quit deflecting, at least we might begin to understand why you have let Nash off the hook. I appreciate your contributions to the hobby, and have enjoyed our exchanges, so don't take this the wrong way.

This is one of the few threads I can post in where I only have to worry about one person beating me up over my opinion ;)


The whole thread was put up as a fake to deflect the current misauthentications uncovered by HOS. It's an attack the messenger thread that serves no purpose other than to provide cover to the tpa's and those that pay them for their non-opinions. It;s the truth no matter who uncovers it and whether or not you or anyone else likes them or not.

Shelly admitted as much that HOS goes after different auction houses, not just lifson, and are you pilloring him about it? no you are not. It;s open season on me though. why, i didnt do anything wrong. the truth is the truth and as i have told others, please disclose EVERYONE you like, or associate with and let's look at them all and decide whether or not you should continue such relationships.

[slidekellyslide]

The whole thread was put up as a fake to deflect the current misauthentications uncovered by HOS. It's an attack the messenger thread that serves no purpose other than to provide cover to the tpa's and those that pay them for their non-opinions. It;s the truth no matter who uncovers it and whether or not you or anyone else likes them or not.

Shelly admitted as much that HOS goes after different auction houses, not just lifson, and are you pilloring him about it? no you are not. It;s open season on me though. why, i didnt do anything wrong. the truth is the truth and as i have told others, please disclose EVERYONE you like, or associate with and let's look at them all and decide whether or not you should continue such relationships.

It is not misdirection, it's another thread...you can choose to read and respond to whichever thread you want. This isn't the PSA boards where threads go poof in the night. Leon didn't delete your thread and he has never deleted anything you have written on this forum.

Your association with Nash takes you down in the dirt with him. Your blatant hypocrisy in this matter is astounding. YOU ARE KNOWINGLY ASSOCIATING YOURSELF WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS DEFRAUDED PEOPLE IN THIS BUSINESS AND REFUSES TO MAKE RESTITUTION. You think I care what you have to say about Bugsy Siegel when you're palling around with Al Capone???

[travrosty]

We've did this all before a hundred times and it turns into an "association game" when it really is a game of misdirections because a company like abc or xyz or so and so auctions can't get their game straight.

Why can't heritage come on here and address their poor performance on boxing, p.t. barnum or anything else?

answer is guess is nash? ????

[slidekellyslide]

We've did this all before a hundred times and it turns into an "association game" when it really is a game of misdirections because a company like abc or xyz or so and so auctions can't get their game straight.

Why can't heritage come on here and address their poor performance on boxing, p.t. barnum or anything else?

answer is guess is nash? ????

Think whatever you like Travis...I no longer trust you, and I doubt I'm alone. Oh and this is not misdirection..I think Heritage gets it wrong a lot, they are not responsive to us and I'd like to hear more about Mike Gutierrez's ban from the HOF library (from someone other than Nash or you). And I think PSA and JSA both suck.

[thetruthisoutthere]

We've did this all before a hundred times and it turns into an "association game" when it really is a game of misdirections because a company like abc or xyz or so and so auctions can't get their game straight.

Why can't heritage come on here and address their poor performance on boxing, p.t. barnum or anything else?

answer is guess is nash? ????

Dan already wrote "that it's a separate thread."

Where's the misdirection?

You can either post a comment or ignore it.

[mighty bombjack]

Nash is a fascinating figure to be sure. The amount of fraud that he has perpetrated in the hobby seems to be quite large, if the "Cooperstown forger" rumors are true. What exactly drives him to shine light on the other dirty cracks around him (which ranges from ineptitude to fraud)?

And I will go ahead and add to the pile of people pointing out that the only misdirection in this thread is Travis's own. We can (and should) have threads about TPAs, auction houses, bad autos, and Nash. Let's talk about all of it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Nash is a fascinating figure to be sure. The amount of fraud that he has perpetrated in the hobby seems to be quite large, if the "Cooperstown forger" rumors are true. What exactly drives him to shine light on the other dirty cracks around him (which ranges from ineptitude to fraud)?

And I will go ahead and add to the pile of people pointing out that the only misdirection in this thread is Travis's own. We can (and should) have threads about TPAs, auction houses, bad autos, and Nash. Let's talk about all of it.

I think Travis calls it misdirecting.

[travrosty]

i dont mind, but to post a nash thread only directly after another thread about tpa's and heritage is to misdirect. wasnt a yesterday a good day to do it, or the day before. It's all a fake. lets go 12 pages on and on about this. right. happens every time. the call goes out so the cavalry comes in.

[thetruthisoutthere]

i dont mind, but to post a nash thread only directly after another thread about tpa's and heritage is to misdirect. wasnt a yesterday a good day to do it, or the day before. It's all a fake. lets go 12 pages on and on about this. right. happens every time. the call goes out so the cavalry comes in.

The irony being, Travis, that you brought more attention to this thread than anyone else.

[travrosty]

like i said i dont have anything to hide. it was going to go for several pages anyway, just like the script called for. that's why it was started.

[mighty bombjack]

like i said i dont have anything to hide. it was going to go for several pages anyway, just like the script called for. that's why it was started.

Well, we are dealing with actual fraud here, not merely incompetence. I believe Nash's forthcoming list of TPA blunders will display the latter as opposed to the former.

Both are indeed worthy of discussion, as is "misdirection," all of which (coupled with his celebrity) makes Nash a huge-ass target. He has earned it many times over and in myriad ways.

Perhaps you should ignore this thread.

[slidekellyslide]

like i said i dont have anything to hide. it was going to go for several pages anyway, just like the script called for. that's why it was started.

Poor Travis...once again the victim. Nothing you have written has been deleted on this forum. Ever. And if you don't want Pete Nash threads interfering with your crusade against PSA/JSA you probably shouldn't shill for his website at every turn. He's using you.

[travrosty]

Poor Travis...once again the victim. Nothing you have written has been deleted on this forum. Ever. And if you don't want Pete Nash threads interfering with your crusade against PSA/JSA you probably shouldn't shill for his website at every turn. He's using you.

i dont want anything deleted and nothing is interfering with my tpa incompetance expose'.

it's grasping at straws from your end when you don't know what else to do.

someday when it all hits the fan i will ask everyone to step forward that defend the tpa's that can't shoot straight due to not taking the time to do it right. and no one will come forward.

[mighty bombjack]

i dont want anything deleted and nothing is interfering with my tpa incompetance expose'.

it's grasping at straws from your end when you don't know what else to do.

someday when it all hits the fan i will ask everyone to step forward that defend the tpa's that can't shoot straight due to not taking the time to do it right. and no one will come forward.

When it hits the fan we will all just move on and keep hobbying. No one will come forward because no one here is defending TPAs that I can see. Yet, you love to say crap like this.

[slidekellyslide]

I'm not sure who here is defending the TPA's...the balance here is tipped so far in your favor I think you may be delusional. People here find your associations fascinating considering you consider yourself to be a crusader for good in the hobby...perhaps more fascinating than your 5000th post on another TPA blunder.

[earlywynnfan]

i dont want anything deleted and nothing is interfering with my tpa incompetance expose'.

it's grasping at straws from your end when you don't know what else to do.

someday when it all hits the fan i will ask everyone to step forward that defend the tpa's that can't shoot straight due to not taking the time to do it right. and no one will come forward.

Do you actually read anyone else's posts, or are you off your rocker?? WHO THE HELL IS DEFENDING THE TPA'S???????????????????????????????????

This thread is about Nash and his criminal activities. If all you can do is misdirect the thread, how about not posting in it anymore?

And before you come on and say "Leon only posted this because I posted against HA," there aren't many days someone isn't posting against someone on here. Why is everything about you? -- Wait, please, don't answer that.

Ken

[travrosty]

Do you actually read anyone else's posts, or are you off your rocker?? WHO THE HELL IS DEFENDING THE TPA'S???????????????????????????????????

This thread is about Nash and his criminal activities. If all you can do is misdirect the thread, how about not posting in it anymore?

And before you come on and say "Leon only posted this because I posted against HA," there aren't many days someone isn't posting against someone on here. Why is everything about you? -- Wait, please, don't answer that.

Ken

it's all a deflection against the tpa's, that is defending them. otherwise there would be the deflection. its not about me, i dont have anything to hide, so quit talking about me and lets talk about the tpa's.

[earlywynnfan]

it's all a deflection against the tpa's, that is defending them. otherwise there would be the deflection. its not about me, i dont have anything to hide, so quit talking about me and lets talk about the tpa's.

No, it's about Nash. For TPAs, go to another thread.

[Exhibitman]

Think whatever you like Travis...I no longer trust you, and I doubt I'm alone.

+1. It baffles me why Nash, whose misdeeds are of the intentional and malicious sort and are well documented, gets a free pass from Travis while the AHs and TPGs, who are at worst incompetent, are subjects of such shrill, vindictive screeds. The utter glee he shows in finding a purported TPG or AH mistake--out of the tens of thousands of authentications and listings every year--make it sound like he has a vendetta against all of them. Consequently, I too do not trust much of what he says.

[Fuddjcal]

+1. It baffles me why Nash, whose misdeeds are of the intentional and malicious sort and are well documented, gets a free pass from Travis while the AHs and TPGs, who are at worst incompetent, are subjects of such shrill, vindictive screeds. The utter glee he shows in finding a purported TPG or AH mistake--out of the tens of thousands of authentications and listings every year--make it sound like he has a vendetta against all of them. Consequently, I too do not trust much of what he says.

+2. a big fat idiot to be sure, IMHO

[travrosty]

+1. It baffles me why Nash, whose misdeeds are of the intentional and malicious sort and are well documented, gets a free pass from Travis while the AHs and TPGs, who are at worst incompetent, are subjects of such shrill, vindictive screeds. The utter glee he shows in finding a purported TPG or AH mistake--out of the tens of thousands of authentications and listings every year--make it sound like he has a vendetta against all of them. Consequently, I too do not trust much of what he says.



psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.

[travrosty]

no its not because no one cares, otherwise you would be talking about nash, not me and tpa's.

so where is the nash talk? there is none!

fake!

why arent you talking about nash and the case? very confusing..oh, i know why, because it's all a front.

[slidekellyslide]

psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.

Are you chalking up Nash's dirty deeds to "human error"?

[travrosty]

+2. a big fat idiot to be sure, IMHO

chuck tapia,

so when both psa and jsa issue a full loa for a thomas sayers signed piece of paper from the 1860's, then get caught by the real experts for having NO exemplars, then they pull the loa's from heritage. How is that NOT fraud?

can you answer that? when heritage learned of the loa's being pulled because of no exemplars, why didnt they fire psa and jsa?

answer: rhymes with honey.

[slidekellyslide]

This thread is about Peter Nash, why do you keep deflecting to PSA and JSA?

[mighty bombjack]

Back on topic:

This particular complaint seems to revolve around the charge that Nash claimed material ownership of an item (or a collection) that he did not in fact own (and thereby illegally profited from that claim).

I see that the "White Betsy" Cooperstown forger blog is no longer up and running. What, if anything, can anyone tell me about that? In particular, who wrote that blog, and is there proof that Nash is indeed the aforementioned forger? I know that peole may need to tread carefully here.

I have read about Nash's legal troubles akin to this one, but I wanna know what stuff he's faked.

[jhs5120]

psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.



I don't agree with this. Every issue I have had with PSA (and I have had many), they have gone above and beyond to correct their mistake. With that said, I would rather conduct business with PSA than Peter Nash.

[travrosty]

I don't agree with this. Every issue I have had with PSA (and I have had many), they have gone above and beyond to correct their mistake. With that said, I would rather conduct business with PSA than Peter Nash.



how did they correct the ty cobb laser print, by admitting it? nope.

they know that the bob fitzsimmons wife signed exemplar is still up on psaautographfacts and do they correct it by taking it down? nope, the cap anson exemplar, do they take it down when they know its not real? nope.

please deal with reality. are grad and spence experts? you decide, they give out loa's with out exemplars to compare the signature to. some experts.



Is nash a third party authenticator? i didnt see where he was a third party authenticator.

bottom line, if nash were only talking about Coaches corner, morales or ted taylor, not only would it be NO BIG DEAL, but the people here would be joining in. it's just because he shows the bonehead authentications by the buddies of this site do people get mad. That's it. no one would care if it were coaches corner/morales mistakes on HOS.

[slidekellyslide]

Is nash a third party authenticator? i didnt see where he was a third party authenticator.

bottom line, if nash were only talking about Coaches corner, morales or ted taylor, not only would it be NO BIG DEAL, but the people here would be joining in. it's just because he shows the bonehead authentications by the buddies of this site do people get mad. That's it. no one would care if it were coaches corner/morales mistakes on HOS.

Clearly the majority of the people who post to this forum recognize that PSA and JSA make mistakes...most of us also realize that they don't own up to most of those mistakes. Nothing you have posted though points to outright fraudulent activity...it just points out ineptitude. Can you say the same for your newest, bestest buddy Peter Nash?

[travrosty]

you are all against showing the mistakes and the sheer lunacy of these certs that are being issued because...

you are afraid, afraid that there is nothing to take its place, a void is worse than what we have now. so you accept less than the best, because it is the lesser of two anvils.

you are also mad because almost everyone owns many, many certs by the companies, and when the day of reckoning comes and the certs go the way of gai and line birdcages, then what. wave bye bye to all that money spent on the certs.

so you blame others, you blame the messenger. doesnt matter if the pope ran hauls of abc, xyz, you would find fault with him, because the message doesnt fit your financial concerns.

[slidekellyslide]

you are all against showing the mistakes and the sheer lunacy of these certs that are being issued because...

you are afraid, afraid that there is nothing to take its place, a void is worse than what we have now. so you accept less than the best, because it is the lesser of two anvils.

you are also mad because almost everyone owns many, many certs by the companies, and when the day of reckoning comes and the certs go the way of gai and line birdcages, then what. wave bye bye to all that money spent on the certs.

so you blame others, you blame the messenger. doesnt matter if the pope ran hauls of abc, xyz, you would find fault with him, because the message doesnt fit your financial concerns.

BS...I don't own a single autograph certed by JSA or PSA or any abc TPA. Not one single autograph. I wouldn't care if all the TPA's ceased to exist this very moment, it wouldn't affect me one bit. I am fascinated with your selective white knighthood though.

[travrosty]

you know what is really interesting, that i get pm's and emails, from some people on this board that agree with me wholeheartedly, some people you would know, and they say to keep going, they are behind the effort. but due to the exposure of getting slammed from people like you, they must remain anonymous.

that says volumes. who wants to take these slings and arrows from people who only want to prop up the status quo? the status quo is falling down on its own without any help. it is just a matter of time, so to keep the same old same old gravy train going is not what is in the cards. people will demand more from their third party authenticators and auction houses will have had enough too, along with the authorities.

when that day comes i will ask you to come onto a thread and defend the tpa's and we will see who shows up. no one will show up.

and like i have said all along, i am not against the idea of third party authenticators, when they take the time to do it right, dont cut corners, and have the experience to actually authenticate autographs. that is not the problem. what i have a problem with is the way it is being done now, without any responsibility, accountability, transparency, auditing function. The companies should show exemplars of every authentication they ever do when asked by the consumer. right now, none of them do that. they thumb their nose at the consumer, they couldnt care less except for the check has to go through.

Imagine a large firm not being audited, not being inspected or held up to the standards that the company sets for itself. no one is going into these companies and seeing if they are practicing what they say on the loa's or on the website.

in the autograph authentication world, the honor system stinks.

[mighty bombjack]

when that day comes i will ask you to come onto a thread and defend the tpa's and we will see who shows up. no one will show up.

Right, we will just keep on hobbying as we are now. When these TPAs go away (not if, but when) no one will defend them. No one is really defending them now, except to say that they fill a market niche, and that PSA and JSA happen to be doing it better than anyone else on a large scale. That means that when I see their cert, I consider the auto, just as I do a raw one. They keep slipping, making more mistakes and ignoring the glaring problems, which is why they will eventually fail. Someone may fill the void. They may not. No big deal either way, really.



Back on topic, does anyone have any info about the White Betsy blog?

[slidekellyslide]

you know what is really interesting, that i get pm's and emails, from some people on this board that agree with me wholeheartedly, some people you would know, and they say to keep going, they are behind the effort. but due to the exposure of getting slammed from people like you, they must remain anonymous.

Travis, *I* am urging you to keep going, but I'm pretty sure you could do it without the likes of Peter Nash and the anonymous scumbags at autographblahblahblah.com. Why you want to align yourself with them is fascinating to me considering you're trying to clean up the hobby. The fact that you won't address this issue at all is also fascinating. They have naked pictures of you or something?

[travrosty]

now i will go and do some stuff outside of the computer realm and you guys can do what the thread suggests, talk about nash, let's see how much nash talk you have in you, it should go on for pages, right? no more me, just nash, let's go ,

oh, you will all move along now, great. it was a fake all along, just like all these threads that get started when the call goes out behind the scenes to start a thread like this.

mission accomplished people, the flash mob can all do something else now.

[slidekellyslide]

oh, you will all move along now, great. it was a fake all along, just like all these threads that get started when the call goes out behind the scenes to start a thread like this.

mission accomplished people, the flash mob can all do something else now.

Delusional AND Paranoid.

[thecatspajamas]

Do they make Immodium for diarrhea of the mouth?

[shelly]

There is one problem with all of this. Is what Nash has to say is true or is it B.S. I am not defending anyone. I just asking a question. Good guy or bad guy is what he is saying helping:confused:

[CW]

Imagine a large firm not being audited, not being inspected or held up to the standards that the company sets for itself. no one is going into these companies and seeing if they are practicing what they say on the loa's or on the website.

OK, I will give you this, Travis -- this is a legitimate gripe. I could only imagine what would happen if a company like PSA had to be ISO certified. The ISO auditors would come in there and tear that place a new you-know-what.

[slidekellyslide]

There is one problem with all of this. Is what Nash has to say is true or is it B.S. I am not defending anyone. I just asking a question. Good guy or bad guy is what he is saying helping:confused:

He's a snake, why should we believe him? Maybe if he did the honorable thing and came clean, made restitution, et cetera, but as long as he's running from that it's just an agenda and not to be taken seriously.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Everyone in this hobby gets criticized or ripped at one time or another, but according to Travis, Peter Nash is off-limits.

Tell us, Travis, why is Peter Nash off-limits?

If Leon posted this Peter Nash thread next week, would you still call it a misdirection thread?

When would be a good time to post a Peter Nash thread, Travis? Next year? Ten years from now?

[slidekellyslide]

Everyone in this hobby gets criticized or ripped at one time or another, but according to Travis, Peter Nash is off-limits.

Tell us, Travis, why is Peter Nash off-limits?

If Leon posted this Peter Nash thread next week, would you still call it a misdirection thread?

When would be a good time to post a Peter Nash thread, Travis? Next year? Ten years from now?

Good luck with this...he didn't answer a single question I posed about his association with Nash.

Notice too that Nash's articles are now being posted to that anonymous coward site that is infatuated with you. Things that make you go hmmm?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Good luck with this...he didn't answer a single question I posed about his association with Nash.

Notice too that Nash's articles are now being posted to that anonymous coward site that is infatuated with you. Things that make you go hmmm?

Dan, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I just noticed the latest HOS material published by the cowards.

[Big Dave]

I personally don't care who or what the source is. If it is true, it is true. Nothing can take away from that.

[shelly]

If Nash is telling the truth no matter who or what he is that is what is important. If your saying you dont belive him because of who he is that is your problem.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" just my opinion.:)

[slidekellyslide]

If Nash is telling the truth no matter who or what he is that is what is important. If your saying you dont belive him because of who he is that is your problem.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" just my opinion.:)

Sure, some of the stuff is obvious like his posts about autographs being certed that are actually pre-printed on the photo...no problem. He finds items that are previously stolen from the HOF or NYPL, no problem....He posts a lot of other stuff that is clearly agenda ridden. He owes a ton of cash to REA, why should I believe a single word he says about Rob Lifson? He has continued to say stuff about the FBI that I seriously doubt.

[mighty bombjack]

Sure, some of the stuff is obvious like his posts about autographs being certed that are actually pre-printed on the photo...no problem. He finds items that are previously stolen from the HOF or NYPL, no problem....He posts a lot of other stuff that is clearly agenda ridden. He owes a ton of cash to REA, why should I believe a single word he says about Rob Lifson? He has continued to say stuff about the FBI that I seriously doubt.

Yes, I agree.

I love his site and always read it very carefully. He clearly works very hard to research these things, and I learn something every time I go there. However, he is skilled at cited "sources" and "experts," which is often difficult to accept when considering his admittedly dishonest past.

[Rich Klein]

Jose Canseco and that means we all need to be very worried. I bet he knows where many of "the bodies are buried".

Rich

[steve B]

OK, I will give you this, Travis -- this is a legitimate gripe. I could only imagine what would happen if a company like PSA had to be ISO certified. The ISO auditors would come in there and tear that place a new you-know-what.

ISO must have changed a LOT since 10 years ago.

I won't get much into it, but I dislike ISO nearly as much as Travis dislikes TPAs.

All they do is cert process. If the process is bad it's just documenting and enforcing bad process. So if PSAs process is to unpack stuff, give it to temp help hired off a streetcorner, then have a data entry person type a letter or flip and send it to slabbing/packing/ shipping.........As long as they do that every time and in just the same way, they're OK for ISO. (Not that some companies don't use it as a tool to improve both process and quality, just that most don't)

Steve B

[D. Bergin]

Jose Canseco and that means we all need to be very worried. I bet he knows where many of "the bodies are buried".

Rich


How he most reminds me of Canseco, is that he turns on people/companies in which he was the one who initially supplied the junk to them in the first place.

When the piper comes a calling, he'll throw his friends under the bus the second his house comes under foreclosure again.

I like Travis, he's good for boxing, but I hope he doesn't eventually get steam-rolled by the Nash machine.

I've also noticed Nash has a habit of determining that every item that has a library stamp on it, must have been stolen at some point. I've been to enough library sales to know, these places are constantly blowing stuff out of their doors and dis-accessioning stuff to make room, and have been doing so for decades.

I once picked up an entire Civil War era bound volume of Harpers Illustrated Weekly from a library sale for 50 bucks.

Sure, if it can be definitively traced to the HOF, or some other confirmed robbery, I can understand, but if some librarian thought they could make 50 cents off a John Ward cabinet 50 years ago, and clear room, I don't understand why that would be so tough to believe. Without a police report, I think he is jumping to a lot of conclusions.

[Exhibitman]

psa and jsa are third party authenticators, they make incredible, stupid mistakes that can't be chalked up to just human error. they dont care about the consumer and won't correct their mistakes are even delete the bad exemplars from psa autographfacts when shown the error of their ways.

the defenders of this psa and jsa nonsense keeps trying to flip it to someone else who is not a third party authenticator nor issues coa's.

I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.

[ibuysportsephemera]

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually.

+1 million

[David Atkatz]

He's a snake, why should we believe him? Maybe if he did the honorable thing and came clean, made restitution, et cetera, but as long as he's running from that it's just an agenda and not to be taken seriously.Truth is truth, Dan. The moral character of the source notwithstanding.
If we ignore the Lifson references, is what Nash has been saying true?

Yes. It has.

Has an ungodly amount of material--much of which has been appearing on the market--been stolen from the HoF Library and the NYPL? Yes.

Has much of the high-end Halper material purchased by MLB and donated to the HoF been shown to be counterfeit? Yes.

Have many of the stories put forth by Halper regarding the provenance of items in his collection--including different, contradictory stories about the same piece--shown to be blatant lies? Yes.

Has the HoF made little-to-no effort in reacquiring its stolen material? Yes.

Has PSA and JSA made mind-numbing "blunders," without once owning up to their errors? Yes.

And so on.

[mighty bombjack]

I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.

Beautifully written post. I am in total agreement all around.

[David Atkatz]

I've also noticed Nash has a habit of determining that every item that has a library stamp on it, must have been stolen at some point. I've been to enough library sales to know, these places are constantly blowing stuff out of their doors and dis-accessioning stuff to make room, and have been doing so for decades.

I once picked up an entire Civil War era bound volume of Harpers Illustrated Weekly from a library sale for 50 bucks.

Sure, if it can be definitively traced to the HOF, or some other confirmed robbery, I can understand, but if some librarian thought they could make 50 cents off a John Ward cabinet 50 years ago, and clear room, I don't understand why that would be so tough to believe. Without a police report, I think he is jumping to a lot of conclusions.
The Hall of Fame Library, and the New York Public Library have never deaccessioned the material in question. The HoF is not allowed to sell any of the material donated to them. And, since they do not purchase, it's all donated.

[travrosty]

I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.



You haven't been paying attention have you?

when they issue loa for an autograph without any exemlars to compare it to, even though the loa says it was comapared to exemplars, is that just human error, an innocent mistake?


NO N-O!


as far as the bad exemplars on psa autograph facts, we showed them the rosalie fitzsimmons autograph where the fitzsimmons part matches up exactly with the fake fitzsimmons they have on there, so they know already its bad, they just dont care.

Of course you don't know if we are right or not. That's why you defend psa. if you knew if we were right or not, you wouldn't. How is that PSA slabbed 'signed' Holyfield card doing? You threw it away, right?


We tried contacting psa and the auction houses in the so called 'nice' way, we were polite, respectful, caring, loving, all-american, etc. THEY DONT CARE! That's what it got us when we tried to help. They didn't give a damn!

Me and M.O. from fighttoys tried to help heritage, I tried to help psa, they couldn't give a F.R.A. about it. It's the cold shoulder brush off. They would just say - thanks, we will take care of it, and then it was business as usual. The band plays on!

[D. Bergin]

The Hall of Fame Library, and the New York Public Library have never deaccessioned the material in question. The HoF is not allowed to sell any of the material donated to them. And, since they do not purchase, it's all donated.


I understand about the HOF, I even mentioned that in my post.

The NYPL is another animal. I'm sure some stuff has been pilfered, but the majority of his writings on that subject are pure speculation and connecting the dots to his predetermined conclusion.

[travrosty]

Truth is truth, Dan. The moral character of the source notwithstanding.
If we ignore the Lifson references, is what Nash has been saying true?

Yes. It has.

Has an ungodly amount of material--much of which has been appearing on the market--been stolen from the HoF Library and the NYPL? Yes.

Has much of the high-end Halper material purchased by MLB and donated to the HoF been shown to be counterfeit? Yes.

Have many of the stories put forth by Halper regarding the provenance of items in his collection--including different, contradictory stories about the same piece--shown to be blatant lies? Yes.

Has the HoF made little-to-no effort in reacquiring its stolen material? Yes.

Has PSA and JSA made mind-numbing "blunders," without once owning up to their errors? Yes.

And so on.



agreed, salient points.

the red herring by the people who wont accept the proof offered by haulsofshame is that they would somehow be on board and accept the proof if someone other than Nash were presenting it. this is of course nonsense. they are just using nash to misdirect from the problem of stolen property, some auction houses doing little to vet the items instead relying on TPA's to do the authentication that doesn't hit the mark on many ocassions.

The resistance to this information being made public is NOT nash - even though they would have you believe so. They just don't want this laundry out there because it shows the system currently in place, warts and all, and a lot of people want the warts covered up so the status quo can continue. It benefits too many for it to be dismantled, even in favor of something better (for the end consumer and the hobby).

Right now it doesnt get much better for the tpa's and those hooked in with them. You can authenticate as much material in secret with as few authenticators as you want. Spread your authentication teams out incredibly thin (up to 4 teams at once out on weekend shows). Not sign the loa's or sign them on 'behalf' of the company. not have to tell the customer just exactly who looked at and authenticated an autograph. not give a guarantee or anything. Just give excuses that it's an 'opinion'., Not show exemplars, and cash a boatload of checks for these nameless, anonymous coa's. what a great system, right?

[earlywynnfan]

I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.

Well said, and unfortunately I'll bet only 99% of the forum understand this point.

Ken

[David Atkatz]

I understand about the HOF, I even mentioned that in my post.

The NYPL is another animal. I'm sure some stuff has been pilfered, but the majority of his writings on that subject are pure speculation and connecting the dots to his predetermined conclusion.Except, as I said, as far as has been ascertained the NYPL did not deaccession the said material. Deaccessioned items are clearly labeled as such--and no one in his right mind would destroy such a label.

[D. Bergin]

Except, as I said, as far as has been ascertained the NYPL did not deaccession the said material. Deaccessioned items are clearly labeled as such--and no one in his right mind would destroy such a label.


Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. Some of these items supposedly went missing decades ago. Librarian has a sale, moves some stuff out. It happens on a pretty regular basis. I'm not sure why the NYPL is any different from every other other library in the country.

[David Atkatz]

Librarian has a sale, moves some stuff out. It happens on a pretty regular basis. I'm not sure why the NYPL is any different from every other other library in the country.Librarians at the NYPL main branch rare books collection--where the items were--don't have "sales."
And the NYPL is juuust a bit different, being the finest library in the country.

You might believe Nash is a snake--and he very well may be. But the NYPL items were stolen, nonetheless.

[prewarsports]

You are probably right David, but how do we know someone didn't walk into the library in 1955, talk to the man in charge at the time and offer to buy a bunch of the books/letters for $500 bucks and walk out with them? Might be unlikely, but it is not an impossible scenario. Things were different 60 years ago and there was no monetary value placed on this stuff and the rules regarding selling items in their possession were not as strict. The law on this stuff is pretty clear that the person with possession is deemed to be the owner with good title unless a superior claim is put forward. Without concrete evidence of a superior ownership claim (which everyone believes the NYPL and HOF have, but can not prove it) they cant prove anything which is why they have not shown any interest up to now to try and get these things back. The FBI seized many of the Harry Wright letters in 2009 from what I understand on the subject, held them for 3 years and investigates the ownership claim, and then gave them back to the people they seized them from and told them to do as they wished with them because the NYPL had no evidence the items were in fact stolen despite the fact that it seems very likely they were.

I am with you that it is very likely, but saying "They were stolen" is a statement that would never hold up in court, and that is why the institutions will not pursue these items. They would lose in court and spend more moey getting to that decision than the items are probably worth.

Just a lowly Lawyes opinion on the subject without full knowledge of al the facts, just from what I have heard and read, stating only to the LEGAL aspect of these items and not the fact that I too believe they were likely stolen and probably an inside job 60 years ago. NOBODY knows for sure and if they did, we wouldn't be having this debate.

[David Atkatz]

Even if a librarian sold the items, they are still stolen. In that case, stolen by said librarian.
I think there's ample proof of previous ownership. It's refusal to own up to incompetence that prevents the recovery.

[barrysloate]

Librarians at the NYPL main branch rare books collection--where the items were--don't have "sales."
And the NYPL is juuust a bit different, being the finest library in the country.

You might believe Nash is a snake--and he very well may be. But the NYPL items were stolen, nonetheless.

David- the bulk of the Spalding Collection at the NYPL is housed in the Department of Photos and Prints, and not part of any rare book collection. Small point, I know.

[David Atkatz]

Thanks for the correction, Barry. But my contention stands--nothing was deaccessioned.

[thetruthisoutthere]

someday when it all hits the fan i will ask everyone to step forward that defend the tpa's that can't shoot straight due to not taking the time to do it right. and no one will come forward.

If I was to wager a ton of money on whether a major hammer falls first on the TPA's or Nash, all of my money is on Nash.

[packs]

If they were stolen 30 years ago I would think the statute of limitations for the NYPL or the HOF to file a claim would have long since passed.

I'd like to see his articles criticizing the NYPL and HOF for failing to maintain their collections and failing to follow up on stolen items. That is the real atrocity.

[travrosty]

If I was to wager a ton of money on whether a major hammer falls first on the TPA's or Nash, all of my money is on Nash.

you would lose too.

i dont have any money but a gentlemans bet it is.

[slidekellyslide]

Define "Major hammer".

[David Atkatz]

If they were stolen 30 years ago I would think the statute of limitations for the NYPL or the HOF to file a claim would have long since passed. The statuate of limitations having passed means that the thief can't be prosecuted. The items, however, remain stolen property, and are always subject to return.

[packs]

Why do you think they don't try to reclaim the items? I thought I read somewhere that they don't want to admit they lost them.

[prewarsports]

Because they cant prove they were stolen.

[David Atkatz]

Of course they could prove they were stolen--if they wanted to.

[prewarsports]

Proving that they once owned them is not evidence of theft, it suggests it probably took place, but it is not proof. If you know something the FBI didn't uncover during their 3 year investigation with the NYPL I am sure they would love to hear about it.

[David Atkatz]

Nonsense. If the Library claims them, it would be incumbent upon the present owner to produce a chain of ownership proving that they were legally removed from the Library.
The Library, for whatever its reasons are, however, declines to claim them.

[ss]

Nonsense. If the Library claims them, it would be incumbent upon the present owner to produce a chain of ownership proving that they were legally removed from the Library.
The Library, for whatever its reasons are, however, declines to claim them.


Untrue. The library would have to present reasonable evidence of ownership and theft. If they cannot make this case to a reasonable standard, the current possessor/owner is required by law to present nothing at all.

[David Atkatz]

Proof of prior possession by the library, along with no evidence of legal possession--i.e., legal removal from the library--is evidence of theft.

[slidekellyslide]

Proof of prior possession by the library, along with no evidence of legal possession--i.e., legal removal from the library--is evidence of theft.

Is an invoice from an auction house proof of possession?

[David Atkatz]

Of course not. Proof of legal possession. Proof that the material was legally obtained from the library before being sold on.

[D. Bergin]

Everybody who's ever bought anything with a library stamp on it, has a lot of explaining to do, I guess.

[slidekellyslide]

Of course not. Proof of legal possession. Proof that the material was legally obtained from the library before being sold on.

The problem with most of these items is that they've been through multiple hands and I'm not sure how the museums go about tracking the thief down. That said, I believe that if you are in possession of an item that belongs to the library or museum it is your moral obligation to return it and then seek restitution from where you got it.

[D. Bergin]

Even if a librarian sold the items, they are still stolen. In that case, stolen by said librarian.
I think there's ample proof of previous ownership. It's refusal to own up to incompetence that prevents the recovery.


If the monies went back into the libraries coffers, I don't really think it is..........and it would be impossible after all these years to prove otherwise.

As for the contention, nothing was ever deaccessioned, I think that's something else you can never prove. As much as you like to believe, an actual deaccession (I'm sure I'm spelling it wrong every time I spell it) marking is more rare then not. Most don't bother with it when they sell stuff off.

Yes, it's the NYPL, they hold themselves to a higher standard. I think that's a speculative assertion.

[David Atkatz]

Everybody who's ever bought anything with a library stamp on it, has a lot of explaining to do, I guess.
That's right. There are numerous cases of rare document thieves being caught with caches of stolen documents from many different libraries. Most of the time, the libraries in question hadn't even realized said documents had gone walkabout. Guess what? The documents went back to the libraries, and the thieves went to jail. Library stamp was enough.

[Leon]

Nonsense. If the Library claims them, it would be incumbent upon the present owner to produce a chain of ownership proving that they were legally removed from the Library.
The Library, for whatever its reasons are, however, declines to claim them.


David, your writings make me think you are sympathetic to Nash's issues. Forget what he is targeting and going after for a minute. What are your thoughts on him?

[D. Bergin]

That's right. There are numerous cases of rare document thieves being caught with caches of stolen documents from many different libraries. Most of the time, the libraries in question hadn't even realized said documents had gone walkabout. Guess what? The documents went back to the libraries, and the thieves went to jail. Library stamp was enough.


Fine, when it's a clear cut case in a reasonable amount of time.


But by your logic, a library can sell something in a sidewalk sale in 1960, realize it's worth a fortune in 2013, and reclaim that item back into their holdings, based on a stamp that it once belonged to them.

[drcy]

In the expensive fine art world, they say keep your sales receipt because it turns out to be stolen, you legally get your money back from the seller. As an item may have been stolen a long time earlier, the seller may in turn get his money back from the person he bought it from. And so on down the line. Stolen items has long been an issue in the art world, and many buyers will expect you to demonstrate the provenance and legal ownership of a Picasso.

If an item was stolen, you can't legally buy or sell it. You may have paid $5,000, but you don't legally own it. This is why, as a buyer, you should be confident the item you are buying wasn't stolen. Stolen items do exist in the baseball hobby market.

I have no knowledge of the NYPL and its practices and if David says they've never gotten rid of stuff I have no reason to doubt him, but other libraries, schools and even museums do sometimes get rid of extra stuff. Museums have sales, often to get rid of extra stuff or because they're changing the museum's focus.

[David Atkatz]

In the expensive fine art world, they say keep your sales receipt because it turns out to be stolen, you legally get your money back from the seller. As an item may have been stolen a long time earlier, the seller may in turn get his money back from the person he bought it from. And so on down the line. Stolen items has long been an issue in the art world, and many buyers will expect you to demonstrate the provenance and legal ownership of a Picasso.

If an item was stolen, you can't legally buy or sell it. You may have paid $5,000, but you don't legally own it. This is why, as a buyer, you should be confident the item you are buying wasn't stolen. Stolen items do exist in the baseball hobby market.

I have no knowledge of the NYPL and its practices and if David says they've never gotten rid of stuff I have no reason to doubt him, but other libraries and even museums do sometimes get rid of extra stuff. Museums have sales, often to get rd of extra stuff or because they're changing the museum's focus.+1

And said material is always clearly marked as such precisely for the reasons cited above.

[drcy]

One thing is the legal owner has to object for there to be a legal objection. Practically speaking. If your hometown library doesn't care anymore that you didn't return a worn Danielle Steele paperback forty years ago, then the library doesn't care.

Now, on the other hand, if it was a Picasso oil painting instead of a worn Danielle Steele paperback, they likely will care.

[D. Bergin]

+1

And said material is always clearly marked as such precisely for the reasons cited above.

You keep on insisting this, but no it's not...........and 30-40-50 years ago, I doubt it was either.

[mighty bombjack]

One thing is the legal owner has to object for there to be a legal objection. Practically speaking. If your hometown library doesn't care anymore that you didn't return a worn Danielle Steele paperback forty years ago, then the library doesn't care.

Now, on the other hand, if it was a Picasso oil painting instead of a worn Danielle Steele paperback, they likely will care.

This seems to be the crux of the issue at hand. The items being dicussed on Nash's website are closer to the Picasso than the Steele novel (certainly in the eyes of the members of this board), yet for some reason the museums in question do not seem all that interested in creating legal objections in all cases.

[drcy]

I agree the Danielle Steele paperback was an extreme example. I didn't even say hardback.

That's why I went back added the Picasso example.

But my point was if the legal owner doesn't object, then the legal owner doesn't object. Nothing an uninvolved third party can do about that. You or I can't sue on the NYPL's behalf.

[David Atkatz]

You keep on insisting this, but no it's not...........and 30-40-50 years ago, I doubt it was either.Yeah. I keep on insisting upon it.

Because it's true.

[slidekellyslide]

I bought a framed print at a garage sale that had our local library's markings on the back along with a pouch and a card that was last stamped in 1961...believe it or not you could at one time check out artwork from the library. I was curious about this item and if it still belonged to the library so I called them and they said they haven't checked out artwork for years. There was absolutely nothing stamped on this item showing it was deaccessioned.

[David Atkatz]

So? The last guy to take it out never returned it.

[slidekellyslide]

You could be right...I don't think it's even a point worth arguing. Clearly there are items missing from both the HOF and the NYPL that were stolen. I don't believe any of those baseball papers or photos were ever deaccessioned. I do however believe both of those institutions are not following up on it because they don't value it enough to go after it. They get stuff for free, they aren't going to pay lawyers to get it back. If the FBI gets it back for them they'll probably take it, but I doubt they spend 1/100th the time that we do thinking about the lost items.

[David Atkatz]

You're absolutely right, there, Dan!

[Runscott]

I bought a framed print at a garage sale that had our local library's markings on the back along with a pouch and a card that was last stamped in 1961...believe it or not you could at one time check out artwork from the library. I was curious about this item and if it still belonged to the library so I called them and they said they haven't checked out artwork for years. There was absolutely nothing stamped on this item showing it was deaccessioned.

Dan, that's particularly true when the item is valuable - I know of a specific example where the item has library stamps, but nothing to indicate that it was ever deaccessioned. The library sold the items to a collector after acquiring a duplicate in better condition, the buyer then re-sold them. The original legal sale by the library definitely occurred. Out of curiosity, I traced it's history and verified all owners, including the library.

[travrosty]

I am of the opinion that the hof and nypl value 20k to 50k autographs enough to want them back. i also believe they dont want the publicity that goes along with admitting that these items slipped through their fingers, especially since new donors would want to be assured that their donated items actually stay in the museum or library.

So that is the reason why they dont go after them in my opinion. There is a price to pay in the form of bad publicity that they dont want to pay. Otherwise it wouldn't cost them anything to just admit they aren't interested in getting the items back, but they don't admit that. You can't get a statement out of them and that is per their damage control plan of defense.

[David Atkatz]

Dan, that's particularly true when the item is valuable - I know of a specific example where the item has library stamps, but nothing to indicate that it was ever deaccessioned. The library sold the items to a collector after acquiring a duplicate in better condition, the buyer then re-sold them. The original legal sale by the library definitely occurred. Out of curiosity, I traced it's history and verified all owners, including the library.
And what Podunk library did that? Wasn't the NYPL, by any chance, was it? No, I thought not.

[slidekellyslide]

I am of the opinion that the hof and nypl value 20k to 50k autographs enough to want them back. i also believe they dont want the publicity that goes along with admitting that these items slipped through their fingers, especially since new donors would want to be assured that their donated items actually stay in the museum or library.

So that is the reason why they dont go after them in my opinion. There is a price to pay in the form of bad publicity that they dont want to pay. Otherwise it wouldn't cost them anything to just admit they aren't interested in getting the items back, but they don't admit that. You can't get a statement out of them and that is per their damage control plan of defense.

Bad publicity is probably a part of it, but these thefts happened a long time ago and it would be easy for them to say the procedures for looking at this stuff have changed and what happened then can never happen again. It wouldn't be too hard to reassure a potential donor that his items are safer than Burdick's were 20+ years ago...or that the Spalding collection is untouchable, "here are the scans you asked for."

I truly believe it's much more of a money, lawyer, hassle issue for items they do not value the same way we do. They don't have to pay a dime for the FBI to do their job and if they get them back, they'll take them, but they obviously aren't going to use any of their own resources to do it.

[shelly]

Gee, it really does sound like a novel. Someone should write it an expose on the librarys and the HOF.:eek:

[drcy]

Along the lines of what Travis said, I've heard where art galleries don't like to let it to become public that something was stolen, because it might make other hesitant to consign.

[Big Dave]

Personally, I believe Leon did a good job by posting this. With over 4400+ views, it has brought a lot of attention to Mr. Nash and his website, and thus, a lot more people reading it.

[Leon]

Personally, I believe Leon did a good job by posting this. With over 4400+ views, it has brought a lot of attention to Mr. Nash and his website, and thus, a lot more people reading it.

And hopefully it will expose him as one of, if not the, biggest fraudsters in the history of our hobby. Him going after bad things is great but he should probably be doing it from a jail cell. In my opinion he is much worse than anything he has exposed. I think some of the people holding fraudulent 19th century memorabilia, which allegedly has no provenance before him, would agree. And for your reading pleasure another case below...I wish I had another episode, the audio court proceedings of Nash getting severely reprimanded by a judge. One of the most unusual things I have heard and quite entertaining. It made these court documents look tame.

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[shelly]

Leon, did they ever arrest him?:confused:

[Leon]

Leon, did they ever arrest him?:confused:

Not that I am aware of. It is/was a civil offense and I believe is very low on a priority level for law enforcement. I was told that about the only way this order would have been invoked is if he got caught, in that jurisdiction, for something else. But I am not an expert so don't know for sure. Also, in Nash's defense, I do believe that most, if not all, of that judgement has been paid back. But I know there are some lingering issues that really suck. Maybe if some of the people that are so cozy with him were holding 6 figures of fraudulent material, that allegedly came from him, they might feel a little differently. But then too, since its not them, maybe they just don't care. But because the person holding the bad goods is a good hobby friend of mine, I do care.

[travrosty]

Leon, please post all cease and desist orders that have been sent to you over the years. Do you consider all of them fair? You probably don't consider any of them fair. They are free to send, don't cost anything and prove nothing. Posting a cease and desist letter as proof of anything is pretty lame as you and many website owners get these from time to time. I don't care if you post it but it's not an indictment of anything as hundreds of website owners including you would have to be considered guilty and we all know these letters are as common as toilet paper, and are always printed and sent first before anything else because of the non-cost involved, hoping the website will copitulate.

[markf31]

Travis, the cease and desist letter is not an indictment of anything, you're right. That's what the judgment for fraud in the amount of $760,227.08 and the included warrant for arrest are for, those are the indictments against Mr. Nash.

You can't ignore the facts simply because they don't fit your narrative.

_____________
Mark Fox

[ibuysportsephemera]

Travis, the cease and desist letter is not an indictment of anything, you're right. That's what the judgment for fraud in the amount of $760,227.08 and the included warrant for arrest are for, those are the indictments against Mr. Nash.

You can't ignore the facts simply because they don't fit your narrative.

_____________
Mark Fox
+1..Travis ignores anything that doesn't support his argument or beliefs.

[travrosty]

Travis, the cease and desist letter is not an indictment of anything, you're right. That's what the judgment for fraud in the amount of $760,227.08 and the included warrant for arrest are for, those are the indictments against Mr. Nash.

You can't ignore the facts simply because they don't fit your narrative.

_____________
Mark Fox

then why include the cease and desist letter when the poster of such letter has had many of them sent to himself in care of this very website?

[earlywynnfan]

then why include the cease and desist letter when the poster of such letter has had many of them sent to himself in care of this very website?

Do you have any comment about the fact that Mr. Nash has committed $760,000 worth of fraud?

Ken

[markf31]

Do you have any comment about the fact that Mr. Nash has committed $760,000 worth of fraud?

Ken

Ken, now that's just a silly question! 145 posts into this thread and Travis has yet to acknowledge or comment on the fraud charges that Mr. Nash himself claimed guilt to... why would Travis start now?

______________
Mark Fox

[Leon]

then why include the cease and desist letter when the poster of such letter has had many of them sent to himself in care of this very website?



Travis- I have received a lot of cease and desist letters. Your are correct, it goes with running a forum. Forget about the Cease and Desist I posted. How about the other two actions signed by judges? And since posting those I have learned that Nash STILL OWES Frazier close to $400,000. Yes, that is hundreds of thousands. Also, I found out he owes Lifson at least $100,000 but probably more. How can you buddy up with this guy and defend him when he is such a fraudster. And btw, my guess is that this thread gets more interesting soon. So please respond about those two actions Travis, there will probably be more coming.... Stay tuned....

[markf31]

then why include the cease and desist letter when the poster of such letter has had many of them sent to himself in care of this very website?

Because this isn't your normal cookie-cutter cease and desist letter, that's pretty obvious. This one includes specifics regarding the fraud that Mr. Nash was found guilty of and the details in part of Mr. Nash's inability, or more appropriately, his reluctance to cooperate in the efforts to satisfy the judgement against related to the fraud, almost a year after the included warrant for arrest was issued.

___________
Mark Fox

[travrosty]

Because this isn't your normal cookie-cutter cease and desist letter, that's pretty obvious. This one includes specifics regarding the fraud that Mr. Nash was found guilty of and the details in part of Mr. Nash's inability, or more appropriately, his reluctance to cooperate in the efforts to satisfy the judgement against related to the fraud, almost a year after the included warrant for arrest was issued.

___________
Mark Fox

the cease and desist letter doesn't include specifics like that, read it. its just a ploy to misdirect. leon is still compiling his cease and desist letter to post and i am sure we will see them all here soon.

when people dont like what is presented on haulsofshame because it includes their buddies is embarrassing, they always try to go after the messenger.

[baseballart]

I am of the opinion that the hof and nypl value 20k to 50k autographs enough to want them back. i also believe they dont want the publicity that goes along with admitting that these items slipped through their fingers, especially since new donors would want to be assured that their donated items actually stay in the museum or library.

So that is the reason why they dont go after them in my opinion. There is a price to pay in the form of bad publicity that they dont want to pay. Otherwise it wouldn't cost them anything to just admit they aren't interested in getting the items back, but they don't admit that. You can't get a statement out of them and that is per their damage control plan of defense.


Travis

I can only comment on my own experience with the NYPL. When I saw an item years back on ebay with a "NYPL" stamp, I was concerned that it was unlawfully removed from the NYPL. I contacted counsel at the NYPL. He replied to me and indicated that the NYPL had reviewed its records and that the item had been indeed deaccessioned by the library, but somehow the proper stampings had not been entered in the book. As such, that particular item was not stolen from the NYPL.

He also added that if I came across other items where provenance was questioned, I could contact them again. I did not get the impression that things were "swept under the rug". It was quite the contrary and that he was indeed interested in being advised of items that had been taken unlawfully from the library.

Max

[travrosty]

thank you for relaying your experience. it's always good to hear all sides.

[D. Bergin]

Travis

I can only comment on my own experience with the NYPL. When I saw an item years back on ebay with a "NYPL" stamp, I was concerned that it was unlawfully removed from the NYPL. I contacted counsel at the NYPL. He replied to me and indicated that the NYPL had reviewed its records and that the item had been indeed deaccessioned by the library, but somehow the proper stampings had not been entered in the book. As such, that particular item was not stolen from the NYPL.

He also added that if I came across other items where provenance was questioned, I could contact them again. I did not get the impression that things were "swept under the rug". It was quite the contrary and that he was indeed interested in being advised of items that had been taken unlawfully from the library.

Max


........but, but, but........David said that never happens. All libraries clearly place deaccession stamps on all items that lawfully leave their possession.

:confused:

[earlywynnfan]

Do you have any comment about the fact that Mr. Nash has committed $760,000 worth of fraud?

Ken

Travis, you must have missed my direct question to you, please respond.

Ken

PS: And just in case you think I'm asking this because I'm defending my friends, of all the people Nash has ever talked about on his site, the person I've communicated with the most -- the closest thing I have to a 'friend' from his posts -- is you.

[earlywynnfan]

thank you for relaying your experience. it's always good to hear all sides.

This quote made me laugh out loud. You mean "It's good to hear all sides, unless it's one of my friends. Then you have an agenda and you're all going down." Right?

[Exhibitman]

That's why you defend psa.

I don't defend PSA; PSA defends against me.

How is that PSA slabbed 'signed' Holyfield card doing? You threw it away, right?

Not on your say-so.

[shelly]

Travis, you must have missed my direct question to you, please respond.

Ken

PS: And just in case you think I'm asking this because I'm defending my friends, of all the people Nash has ever talked about on his site, the person I've communicated with the most -- the closest thing I have to a 'friend' from his posts -- is you.
Ken has he been charged and convicted of fruad?

[earlywynnfan]

Shelly, do you feel he should get a free pass??

[Leon]

Uh, Shelly, actually I believe he admitted to fraud....but I am sure these are all a big, big misunderstanding...

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[shelly]

Shelly, do you feel he should get a free pass??

If he is guilty of a crime no. Untill that time he is just someone one you dont like and never will. I think there is always two sides to a story. I know Rob reads this site. I would like to hear from him.

[Leon]

If he is guilty of a crime no. Untill that time he is just someone one you dont like and never will. I think there is always two sides to a story. I know Rob reads this site. I would like to hear from him.

Everything said so far, against Nash, would pale in comparison to what Rob thinks, trust me.

[travrosty]

If he is guilty of a crime no. Untill that time he is just someone one you dont like and never will. I think there is always two sides to a story. I know Rob reads this site. I would like to hear from him.



i am with this statement. i remember reading pete's side. Just because people dont like someone, doesnt mean they have a monopoly on the facts.

i looked back at haulsofshame posts, and found this.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=7968

[shelly]

I am not defending him. This is a civil case and everyone one is makeing it out to be a criminal case. I am just defending his right to write and artical no more no less. If you dont want to believe what he writes fine.:confused:

[earlywynnfan]

If he is guilty of a crime no. Untill that time he is just someone one you dont like and never will. I think there is always two sides to a story. I know Rob reads this site. I would like to hear from him.

And Shelly, I put it to you that most of the people he writes about fall into the same criteria. So why isn't he fair game here?? I'm sure Nash knows about this thread. I would like to hear from him.

[earlywynnfan]

i am with this statement. i remember reading pete's side. Just because people dont like someone, doesnt mean they have a monopoly on the facts.
i looked back at haulsofshame posts, and found this.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=7968

Same thing to you, Travis, in your rants against PSA and JSA.

[shelly]

And Shelly, I put it to you that most of the people he writes about fall into the same criteria. So why isn't he fair game here?? I'm sure Nash knows about this thread. I would like to hear from him.
He is fair game and I would like him to come on here as well. I am not taking sides.As I said from the very begining. I feel that he has every right to write what he wants and you have the same rights not to believe it.

[mighty bombjack]

I am not defending him. This is a civil case and everyone one is makeing it out to be a criminal case. I am just defending his right to write and artical no more no less. If you dont want to belive what he writes fine.:confused:

I don't thnk it is an all or nothing proposition in believing what he writes or not. He clearly does a lot of research and he regularly presents readily-varifiable facts.

What is pertinent about his past history of fraudulant behavior is that his writings need to be read more critically. Case in point:

When speaking here about a questionable Ruth baseball (I think it was that, one of the longer threads in the last year), a well-respected poster on these boards posted that he had spoken to several people who didn't think the ball was genuine. I have absolutely no reason to question this person, and his stellar reputation led me to take him at his word.

On the other hand, when Nash writes that "experts" share an opinion that something is or is not genuine, he does not get the benefit of that doubt from me. Travis can say I'm protecting the status quo all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Nash has lost the right (in my eyes) to make sweeping and anonymous generalizations.

That being said, I hope he continues and takes steps to tighten up his writing and use of sources (and drops the needless, unrelated bashing in his posts). I will keep reading, that's for sure.

[shelly]

Well said.:)

[David Atkatz]

........but, but, but........David said that never happens. All libraries clearly place deaccession stamps on all items that lawfully leave their possession.

:confused:I'm not talking about a book from some branch library of the NYPL. I'm talking about artifacts cared for by professional, trained, librarians/curators at the main branch--Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street--the finest research library in the country.

[travrosty]

Same thing to you, Travis, in your rants against PSA and JSA.



you have never disproven any of my facts against psa or jsa.

go ahead, post proof that anything i have shown as mistakes made by them are an error in my part.

go ahead!

[Leon]

you have never disproven any of my facts against psa or jsa.

go ahead, post proof that anything i have shown as mistakes made by them are an error in my part.

go ahead!

Travis- when I get the time, and it will be by tomorrow, I will be posting many more court actions against Nash. Do you realize when you sleep with dogs you get fleas? The old saying, you are the company you keep....have you ever heard that?

Now, all of this doesn't mean that some of what Nash says isn't true. I am sure it is. I am sure he is a very smart person too. What I never understand about his type is that if they used their smarts for good, instead of bad, they could be so successful. I truly don't understand it. He reminds me of the scammer on the card side that lives his life scamming people and dodging authorities. I don't think that is any way to live your life....

[shelly]

Leon, I think that everyone has an idea who Pete Nash is. I think the way your doing it looks like your representing Rob. Over kill is not needed;)

[Big Dave]

Shelly is right Leon......is Rob supplying you with all these documents?

Seems whomever is, has an agenda too.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Shelly is right Leon......is Rob supplying you with all these documents?

Seems whomever is, has an agenda too.

So what if someone has an agenda?

Are you going to tell me that Travis doesn't have an agenda?

Or that I don't have an agenda?

[Big Dave]

Not at all. Just that some of you cry that Mr. Nash is not to believed because he has an agenda.

But your answer is sufficient.

[HRBAKER]

I think the point is that someone who has the time to clean up other's houses might well take a broom to their own first.
Frankly that's an understandable POV but it does not make what he says untrue.
See, Emperor has no clothes.

[thenavarro]

Adam,

Your post is too insightful for this thread. Please cease and desist sir.

Mike



I am not defending the TPGs; I am not exactly on PSA's friends list since I sued them successfully on behalf of one of our members some years ago and rip them regularly for what they do wrong in writings going back more than a decade. That said, if you believe that the company's mistakes are something more than mistakes, if you are suggesting that their business model is to intentionally mess up their work product, that simply does not comport with reality nor is it supported by a scintilla of evidence. I'm a lawyer, Travis, I deal in evidence, not assumptions and accusations. Show me the proof underlying your opinion that the TPG mistakes are not "just human error" and show me the proof that they "don't care about the consumer."

As for why you are unable to get PSA and JSA to see things your way on purported erroneous exemplars, I think it is not that their managements don't care about the customers but more that they don't care about your opinions. You may be right on some things, I don't know, but you often state your views here in a manner that is so shrill, intolerant, obnoxious and arrogant that people who don't know you are not exactly going to be inclined to listen. You maintain that kind of public persona and you will need a lot more than "because I say it is" to back up your statements. Credibility comes with respect and respect has to be earned continually. Nash may be right on some things, but he is a con artist and deadbeat with an ax to grind against Rob Lifson, so people aren't exactly going to take his screeds as sermons from the mount, either.

[CW]

Has anyone seen Peter Nash and Travis Roste in the same room?

:D



















(kidding here -- carry on) ;)

[travrosty]

Adam,

Your post is too insightful for this thread. Please cease and desist sir.

Mike



some of these places, (not psa or jsa ofr course) want money over everything and admitting mistakes and correcting them for the good of the hobby doesnt fit their profit sharing plan so to speak. in other words they dont care.

[slidekellyslide]

Not at all. Just that some of you cry that Mr. Nash is not to believed because he has an agenda.

But your answer is sufficient.

If Peter Nash is mentioning Rob Lifson who has a huge judgement against him I don't believe a word he says...other stuff? Who knows, it's not like this guy is Ghandi. It's stunning to me the amount of support he seems to be getting in this forum considering the fraud he committed. I think if this conversation takes place in the card forum he gets no support at all.

[earlywynnfan]

some of these places, (not psa or jsa ofr course) want money over everything and admitting mistakes and correcting them for the good of the hobby doesnt fit their profit sharing plan so to speak. in other words they dont care.

Are you actually saying that without irony in a thread about a man who ripped people off for over $760,000???????????????????? A man who loves slamming others' mistakes but refuses to acknowledge his own??

[slidekellyslide]

some of these places, (not psa or jsa ofr course) want money over everything and admitting mistakes and correcting them for the good of the hobby doesnt fit their profit sharing plan so to speak. in other words they dont care.

I think most of us agree with this....are the mistakes being made by JSA and PSA mistakes or something sinister? I seriously don't see what benefit PSA gets from giving a thumbs up to a printed PT Barnum signature.

[mighty bombjack]

some of these places, (not psa or jsa ofr course) want money over everything and admitting mistakes and correcting them for the good of the hobby doesnt fit their profit sharing plan so to speak. in other words they dont care.

Of course you are being facetious in your first line, but we all agree with you on this Travis. You will not find a single person here who thinks the TPAs want what's good for the hobby over profit. They are marketing machines, selling a flawed product. It just doesn't seem to bother most of us as much as it does you.

[RichardSimon]

They are marketing machines, selling a flawed product.

The smartest sentence in this thread.

[travrosty]

Of course you are being facetious in your first line, but we all agree with you on this Travis. You will not find a single person here who thinks the TPAs want what's good for the hobby over profit. They are marketing machines, selling a flawed product. It just doesn't seem to bother most of us as much as it does you.

And thats the biggest problem i think we have as a hobby, the apathy.

[mighty bombjack]

And thats the biggest problem i think we have as a hobby, the apathy.

See, I worked at Topps for two years. It is a very poorly run company where one hand doesn't know what the other 33 are doing. It was also a pretty hectic job with lots of deadlines. But that didn't really bother me because it was just baseball cards, which is something I used to tell myself if I found stress creeping in at the job, "It's just baseball cards." I wasn't curing cancer, but I wasn't causing it, either. Can you see my point?

Now, when I go on other hobby websites that are more focused on modern baseball cards, there are arguments happening that shadow those here about the TPAs, but they are about Topps. Topps doesn't care about us, they are ruining the hobby, etc. You know where I side on those? It's just baseball cards. If you don't like what Topps is doing, don't patronize them, and if it is causing anger and higher blood pressure, than perhaps painting or birdwatching (or better yet, vintage!) might be a better hobby. But I can promise you that there is no evil plot or fraudulant behavior going on at Topps, just a group of jabronis at a poorly run company struggling to get a product on the street. It's just baseball cards.

I feel the same way about TPAs. I like autograph collecting. I have been doing it for 20+ years. The hobby had problems before the TPAs came along, and it will have problems when they fail. But when it comes to the opinions of these self-proclaimed experts, I can use or ignore them, which is more and more becoming the latter. You can call this apathy. I call it enjoyment and staying sane. It's just scribbles on paper.

Granted, I don't make my livlihood from autos, like some around here do, but maybe this will help you better understand my position on the topic.

[Leon]

Shelly is right Leon......is Rob supplying you with all these documents?

Seems whomever is, has an agenda too.

Isn't this kind of an ironic question given the agendas that Travis and Nash seem to have? Yes, I have an agenda. It is to expose Nash with incriminating evidence, and most of that being notarized court documents, when he goes after other people and companies. The same can't be said for Travis or Nash, with respect to empirical evidence. Who really cares where I got them? Just like everyone, yourself included, saying (in essence)....what does it matter that Nash is the biggest fraudster to stand foot in the hobby, what he says might be true!! Well, EVERYTHING I have posted is factual. And I have already said I am not comfy with Nash specifically because a good hobby friend is holding 6 figures of bad 19th century memorabilia that allegedly can't be traced back before Nash. The rumor is that Nash took, or takes, good 19th century stuff....puts one and one together, and makes three. Also, some concourse balls that were consigned by him were found to be fake (or at least have materials that weren't around at the time the memorabilia was used/made.) I am going to save the pile of other documents for a rainy day. Suffice it to say there is nothing that will make Nash or his allies look too good. Just more squirming, crawfishing, stealing and lying the way it seems he always has. Nothing new there.....
.
,

Not any of this means that some of what Nash says isn't true. As stated already, I am sure it is. But maybe Nash needs to apologize, make restitution and pay back people he has swindled before he cures the hobby of all fraud. That would be a good start to giving him some respectability. But then again, some people don't care.

[shelly]

Leon, I think that you underestimate the people on this site.We do care and I understand your wanting to help a friend.
I like most people on here are not looking at who is writeing the story vs is the story fact or fiction. Rob is no angle and he knows it. None of us are. I just feel there is a fourm for your thread and a forum for what he writes.
Yes Ken I do believe that they should be seperate. The conversation should be is what he writes true or not. There have been questionable people out there that have written very important things that turned out to be true.
Last time. He has a right to print what he believes is the truth and you have a right not to believe it bad guy or not.

[travrosty]

I am sick of the "nash is a bad guy so everything he writes is fake" crowd.
its stupid. so lifson doesnt like him , so what?

[Leon]

I am sick of the "nash is a bad guy so everything he writes is fake" crowd.
its stupid. so lifson doesnt like him , so what?

You obviously can't comprehend the English language. Show me one place where anyone has said that, especially me? One place Travis.....

[thetruthisoutthere]

I am sick of the "nash is a bad guy so everything he writes is fake" crowd.
its stupid. so lifson doesnt like him , so what?

Are you serious, Travis!!!

Please quote where that has been written.

Travis, you simply don't like the fact that Nash is being criticized.

Nash has made himself fair game.

[mighty bombjack]

I am sick of the "nash is a bad guy so everything he writes is fake" crowd.
its stupid. so lifson doesnt like him , so what?

Wow, you really do only see things in black and white, don't you? A hundred percent or nothing?

It's sad, really.

[slidekellyslide]

its stupid.

Heh.

[bigtrain]

Didn't realize that this thread was still going. I don't know Peter Nash and am too old, I guess, to have been a fan of his music. I do not know Rob Lifson either. I do know that Rob Lifson and others have sued Nash for fraud, Lifson getting a judgment in excess of $750,000.00. I do know that Nash's father took $50,000.00 from Bishop Ford High School's development fund to keep Peter's Cooperstown property from being foreclosed and that he was not prosecuted. I do know that Nash has admitted fraud in Court and has also admitted not filing tax returns for five years. As my family has a summer home near Cooperstown, I do know that if you mention Peter Nash's name to anyone there who has been in town for more than a few years, eyes start rolling. Nevertheless, I do read Nash's website from time to time and knowing that he has an agenda, I can sort through some of what he writes and find that it does have value. As they say even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while and Peter Nash is a busy little squirrel.

[Baseball Fan]

Very interesting stuff. Like the poster above, I know nothing about any of these people.

But from what I can gather reading the last few pages, would this be like Barry Bonds writing a book bashing on steroid abusers? Or not at all?

[Wymers Auction]

Leon, I think that you underestimate the people on this site.We do care and I understand your wanting to help a friend.
I like most people on here are not looking at who is writeing the story vs is the story fact or fiction. Rob is no angle and he knows it. None of us are. I just feel there is a fourm for your thread and a forum for what he writes.
Yes Ken I do believe that they should be seperate. The conversation should be is what he writes true or not. There have been questionable people out there that have written very important things that turned out to be true.
Last time. He has a right to print what he believes is the truth and you have a right not to believe it bad guy or not.

One thing that would help me discern that someone is lying is to have knowledge that they are historically a liar. Why start believing someone that is a habitual liar? I do not believe that you can be a fraud like Nash and then make a public relations announcement that you are now out to clean up the hobby that is ridiculous. If he was truly out to clean up the hobby why not remove him self from it? Please do not take this personally Shelly, I just do not agree with you on this even though I respect your opinion.

[yanks12025]

Anyone have the cliff notes on this thread? Too lazy to read all the posts.

[David Atkatz]

One thing that would help me discern that someone is lying is to have knowledge that they are historically a liar. Why start believing someone that is a habitual liar?Why? Because what he writes is easily checked, and has been found to be true.

[sago]

Anyone have the cliff notes on this thread? Too lazy to read all the posts.

Leon calls out Nash.
Travis hates TPA's.

[Scott Garner]

Leon calls out Nash.
Travis hates TPA's.

Awesome post! LOL :D

[Rich Klein]

Not only calls out Nash, but has proof

Travis bashes TPA's

Rich

[Rich Klein]

And follow myself but in these cases the court judgements are public informaton and I'm sure a good google search can find these docs.

Search sometimes for fan injuries at baseball games and lawsuits and you will get all those documents as well

[travrosty]

Why? Because what he writes is easily checked, and has been found to be true.


they hate the fact that it's true. its always the tactic that gets used, misdirect, change the subject and deflect. that's why the tpa's bonehead authentications and the stolen material can change hands all this time. If there were dozens and dozens of vigilant people instead of just a few, it would be all fixed by now.

Instead some want what is going on right now to continue.

100 worst authentications from the abc, xyz's coming up soon. get a front row seat.

[Scott Garner]

I'm on pins and needles waiting...

[Forever Young]

they hate the fact that it's true. its always the tactic that gets used, misdirect, change the subject and deflect. that's why the tpa's bonehead authentications and the stolen material can change hands all this time. If there were dozens and dozens of vigilant people instead of just a few, it would be all fixed by now.

Instead some want what is going on right now to continue.

100 worst authentications from the abc, xyz's coming up soon. get a front row seat.

100 out of how many hundreds of thousands???? You ck eBay, auctions, the web in search of items to post.. What else do you do with yourself?

[RichardSimon]

100 out of how many hundreds of thousands???? You ck eBay, auctions, the web in search of items to post.. What else do you do with yourself?

Ben,
It is not just the multiple mistakes that bother people. We all make mistakes.
In the opinion of some it is a far worse problem than multiple mistakes.

[travrosty]

100 out of how many hundreds of thousands???? You ck eBay, auctions, the web in search of items to post.. What else do you do with yourself?



when you issue an loa for an item and the loa says it was checked against exemplars, and then only after being caught, you pull the loa from the auction house due of a lack of exemplars, then is it a mistake?

how can i or anyone else make that "mistake"? it is the gravity of the 'mistakes' that is very concerning not the fact that one occasionally occurs. It's too many 'mistakes' and too many big mistakes that could have easily been caught to chalk up to JUST human error and not other factors like too few authenticators, authenticators authenticating out of their specialty. going too fast, too few/no exemplars.

A mistake occurs when you have all your ducks in a row, put forward your very best effort using all available resources at your disposal, and a mistake still occurs. Is this the case? you be the judge.

Once upon a time a guy posted a baloney jim corbett signature here and i said to myself, "it's obviously bad to someone with a lot of experience in boxing signatures, but i bet it gets either an abc or xyz cert."

sure enough in a few weeks, he posts it again with an xyz cert, and xyz company lists no boxing experts on their site. I knew it would happen and it did. How is that a classic definition of a mistake?

properly authenticating an autograph like that requires experience and preparation, neither of which was evidently executed in this case. If i dont know dentistry and someone comes to me with an abcess tooth and i pull the wrong tooth, did i just make a 'mistake'? well yes and no, but it's not a mistake that should have happened because I am not a dentist.

Some of these companies are authenticating autographs they have no business authenticating, and without the proper exemplars, staff and manpower, they set themselves up for their own failure. I didn't tell them to do it that way and the collecting public needs to know what is REALLY happening. You don't want people to know? you think they are doing great? please explain why you think that?

It's just the 100 WORST authentications by these companies, not all of them. It had to be pared down greatly to make 100, there were easily scores more that didn't make the final cut.

[thetruthisoutthere]

when you issue an loa for an item and the loa says it was checked against exemplars, and then only after being caught, you pull the loa from the auction house due of a lack of exemplars, then is it a mistake?

how can i or anyone else make that "mistake"? it is the gravity of the 'mistakes' that is very concerning not the fact that one occasionally occurs. It's too many 'mistakes' and too many big mistakes that could have easily been caught to chalk up to JUST human error and not other factors like too few authenticators, authenticators authenticating out of their specialty. going too fast, too few/no exemplars.

A mistake occurs when you have all your ducks in a row, put forward your very best effort using all available resources at your disposal, and a mistake still occurs. Is this the case? you be the judge.

Once upon a time a guy posted a baloney jim corbett signature here and i said to myself, "it's obviously bad to someone with a lot of experience in boxing signatures, but i bet it gets either an abc or xyz cert."

sure enough in a few weeks, he posts it again with an xyz cert, and xyz company lists no boxing experts on their site. I knew it would happen and it did. How is that a classic definition of a mistake?

properly authenticating an autograph like that requires experience and preparation, neither of which was evidently executed in this case. If i dont know dentistry and someone comes to me with an abcess tooth and i pull the wrong tooth, did i just make a 'mistake'? well yes and no, but it's not a mistake that should have happened because I am not a dentist.

Some of these companies are authenticating autographs they have no business authenticating, and without the proper exemplars, staff and manpower, they set themselves up for their own failure. I didn't tell them to do it that way and the collecting public needs to know what is REALLY happening. You don't want people to know? you think they are doing great? please explain why you think that?

It's just the 100 WORST authentications by these companies, not all of them. It had to be pared down greatly to make 100, there were easily scores more that didn't make the final cut.

Geez, Travis, looks to me like a "misdirection ploy" by Nash to deflect his own issues in the hobby......

Oh that's right, Travis, it's only "misdirection" if someone posts a thread about Nash.............

[slidekellyslide]

when you issue an loa for an item and the loa says it was checked against exemplars, and then only after being caught, you pull the loa from the auction house due of a lack of exemplars, then is it a mistake?

how can i or anyone else make that "mistake"? it is the gravity of the 'mistakes' that is very concerning not the fact that one occasionally occurs. It's too many 'mistakes' and too many big mistakes that could have easily been caught to chalk up to JUST human error and not other factors like too few authenticators, authenticators authenticating out of their specialty. going too fast, too few/no exemplars.

A mistake occurs when you have all your ducks in a row, put forward your very best effort using all available resources at your disposal, and a mistake still occurs. Is this the case? you be the judge.

Once upon a time a guy posted a baloney jim corbett signature here and i said to myself, "it's obviously bad to someone with a lot of experience in boxing signatures, but i bet it gets either an abc or xyz cert."

sure enough in a few weeks, he posts it again with an xyz cert, and xyz company lists no boxing experts on their site. I knew it would happen and it did. How is that a classic definition of a mistake?

properly authenticating an autograph like that requires experience and preparation, neither of which was evidently executed in this case. If i dont know dentistry and someone comes to me with an abcess tooth and i pull the wrong tooth, did i just make a 'mistake'? well yes and no, but it's not a mistake that should have happened because I am not a dentist.

Some of these companies are authenticating autographs they have no business authenticating, and without the proper exemplars, staff and manpower, they set themselves up for their own failure. I didn't tell them to do it that way and the collecting public needs to know what is REALLY happening. You don't want people to know? you think they are doing great? please explain why you think that?

It's just the 100 WORST authentications by these companies, not all of them. It had to be pared down greatly to make 100, there were easily scores more that didn't make the final cut.

This thread is about Peter Nash...stop deflecting and misdirecting.

[RichardSimon]

This thread is about Peter Nash...stop deflecting and misdirecting.

Sounds like you are announcing a hockey game :).

[thetruthisoutthere]

I'm on pins and needles waiting...

You, too, Scott........

[thetruthisoutthere]

they hate the fact that it's true. its always the tactic that gets used, misdirect, change the subject and deflect. that's why the tpa's bonehead authentications and the stolen material can change hands all this time. If there were dozens and dozens of vigilant people instead of just a few, it would be all fixed by now.

Instead some want what is going on right now to continue.

100 worst authentications from the abc, xyz's coming up soon. get a front row seat.

I guess what Travis is saying is that we should only write about what Travis wants to write about.

Travis, is it okay for you to write about the TPA's, but we shouldn't be writing about Peter Nash?

[travrosty]

I guess what Travis is saying is that we should only write about what Travis wants to write about.

Travis, is it okay for you to write about the TPA's, but we shouldn't be writing about Peter Nash?



no go right ahead, write about nash, but i dont see any williams writing about nash, because its all a fake. you arent going to write about nash. you dont care about nash, this thread wasnt started for people to write about nash, because if you look at it, other than the originals papers posted that have been posted many times before, its not about nash, it's about how what he says on hos should be disregarded, but its not about him. it was posted in response to me mentioning heritage, but it's not about nash at all.

just like when i post about psa or jsa, then out comes todd mueller. its not about mueller. it's never been about mueller. if it was, you would post about mueller all the time, even when i dont even visit net54 and dont post about psa or jsa.

but you only bring out mueller when i mention psa or jsa, just like leon only brings the nash thread out when i mention heritage, their sponsor.

it's all fake misdirection people, and always has been.

if you want to post about him, why dont you post about him then? you just made a post with a question aimed at me, why wasnt your post about nash? because you dont care about nash.

here's an assignment for chris williams,

1. write about nash, and write about him each day for two weeks. tell us how much you know about him and write about him, no matter what anyone else writes about. just like i write about psa and jsa no matter what anyone else writes about, I could care less what anyone else writes about. show us you are interested in writing about nash.

just as i thought.

[thetruthisoutthere]

here's an assignment for chris williams,

1. write about nash, and write about him each day for two weeks. tell us how much you know about him and write about him, no matter what anyone else writes about. just like i write about psa and jsa no matter what anyone else writes about, I could care less what anyone else writes about. show us you are interested in writing about nash.

just as i thought.

All in good time, Travis. All in good time.

[thetruthisoutthere]

no go right ahead, write about nash, but i dont see any williams writing about nash, because its all a fake. you arent going to write about nash. you dont care about nash, this thread wasnt started for people to write about nash, because if you look at it, other than the originals papers posted that have been posted many times before, its not about nash, it's about how what he says on hos should be disregarded, but its not about him. it was posted in response to me mentioning heritage, but it's not about nash at all.

just like when i post about psa or jsa, then out comes todd mueller. its not about mueller. it's never been about mueller. if it was, you would post about mueller all the time, even when i dont even visit net54 and dont post about psa or jsa.

but you only bring out mueller when i mention psa or jsa, just like leon only brings the nash thread out when i mention heritage, their sponsor.

it's all fake misdirection people, and always has been.

if you want to post about him, why dont you post about him then? you just made a post with a question aimed at me, why wasnt your post about nash? because you dont care about nash.

here's an assignment for chris williams,

1. write about nash, and write about him each day for two weeks. tell us how much you know about him and write about him, no matter what anyone else writes about. just like i write about psa and jsa no matter what anyone else writes about, I could care less what anyone else writes about. show us you are interested in writing about nash.

just as i thought.

Basically, Travis, what you are writing, is that you don't like anyone (me included, of course) mentioning Mueller or Nash.

Just remember our "Gentleman's Bet," Travis.

[thenavarro]

I could care less what anyone else writes about.

.

Then stop rambling about "misdirection" or whatever you term it. You evidently care or else you'd stop.

Mike

[Baseball Fan]

Again, a guy like me has no idea who any of these people are or what they are about.

However, it seems like Travis knows or his friends (?) with Mr. Nash, so I'll ask him. Is this Nash guy really a criminal? Has he done bad things in the hobby?

Thanks in advance for taking the time.

[earlywynnfan]

no go right ahead, write about nash, but i dont see any williams writing about nash, because its all a fake. you arent going to write about nash. you dont care about nash, this thread wasnt started for people to write about nash, because if you look at it, other than the originals papers posted that have been posted many times before, its not about nash, it's about how what he says on hos should be disregarded, but its not about him. it was posted in response to me mentioning heritage, but it's not about nash at all.

just like when i post about psa or jsa, then out comes todd mueller. its not about mueller. it's never been about mueller. if it was, you would post about mueller all the time, even when i dont even visit net54 and dont post about psa or jsa.

but you only bring out mueller when i mention psa or jsa, just like leon only brings the nash thread out when i mention heritage, their sponsor.

it's all fake misdirection people, and always has been.

if you want to post about him, why dont you post about him then? you just made a post with a question aimed at me, why wasnt your post about nash? because you dont care about nash.

here's an assignment for chris williams,

1. write about nash, and write about him each day for two weeks. tell us how much you know about him and write about him, no matter what anyone else writes about. just like i write about psa and jsa no matter what anyone else writes about, I could care less what anyone else writes about. show us you are interested in writing about nash.

just as i thought.

Totally untrue and you know it. I specifically asked you TWICE about Nash and what you thought about his $700,000+++ fraud. You ignored me both times.

You wrote this: "some of these places, (not psa or jsa ofr course) want money over everything and admitting mistakes and correcting them for the good of the hobby doesnt fit their profit sharing plan so to speak. in other words they dont care." And I asked you about it. Has Nash corrected his mistakes, or doesn't he care. You ignored me this time, too.

I asked Shelly if NASH should get a free pass. I didn't direct that one to you, so you ignored it.

Every misdirection in this thread has been from you, Travis, and everybody sees it.

I'm asking you direct questions about NASH, Travis. Man up and answer them.
Ken

[mighty bombjack]

Again, a guy like me has no idea who any of these people are or what they are about.

However, it seems like Travis knows or his friends (?) with Mr. Nash, so I'll ask him. Is this Nash guy really a criminal? Has he done bad things in the hobby?

Thanks in advance for taking the time.

He won't answer your question (see the post above this one-he hasn't answered any direct questions in this thread).

[Baseball Fan]

He won't answer your question (see the post above this one-he hasn't answered any direct questions in this thread).

OK. Thanks.

Sometimes when people don't answer, it's all the response you need.

[JT]

Without getting into the moralistic aspects of Mr. Nash's character, from what I have seen, Mr. Nash's disputes with others, via the court system, are strictly civil in nature. I have not seen where Mr. Nash has been charged and/or convicted of anything of a criminal nature.

If others have anything to dispute this, please post this information.

[shelly]

I do have one question for Leon. Has Nash ever paid Rob any money or does he still owe him 700 thousand.
Ken, this is not defending what he did. If he is paying the man back would you then think differently about him?

[JT]

A little history on the Peter vs Rob feud.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/rapper-peter-nash-memorabilia-legal-fight-ugly-article-1.431288

[earlywynnfan]

I do have one question for Leon. Has Nash ever paid Rob any money or does he still owe him 700 thousand.
Ken, this is not defending what he did. If he is paying the man back would you then think differently about him?

It would, esp. if he admitted his wrongdoings. Also, I'd want to hear his side on the whole Cooperstown Forger fiasco. From what I've read, the evidence (or what seems like evidence) against Nash there is more damning than most of the evidence Nash posts against others.

Ken

[mighty bombjack]

It would, esp. if he admitted his wrongdoings. Also, I'd want to hear his side on the whole Cooperstown Forger fiasco. From what I've read, the evidence (or what seems like evidence) against Nash there is more damning than most of the evidence Nash posts against others.

Ken

Thank you for bringing this back up. I have asked several times about who authored the White Betsy blog and what happened to it, but either no one knows or they don't want to say.

[Leon]

I do have one question for Leon. Has Nash ever paid Rob any money or does he still owe him 700 thousand.
Ken, this is not defending what he did. If he is paying the man back would you then think differently about him?

It is my understanding that some items were sold and were used to pay back part of the debt. I believe Lifson is still owed over 100k. It is also my understanding he still owes the Fraziers close to 475k after interest.

To answer the question concerning is what Nash has done criminal or civil, I don't know, I am not a lawyer. I do know that a good friend of mine is in possession of over 100k of fraudulent 19th century memorabilia that came from Nash. To me that is criminal. Until he is made whole I won't have a warm fuzzy about Pete Nash. Also, all of the lies and twists and turns.....just not good. And I have quite a few other documents I can and will post at some point. All of them are Nash's entanglements with the legal system...They seem to show him lying, cheating and generally being a bad person. And it's a shame too because I have heard he has a brilliant mind.

[shelly]

Leon, if he commited grand theft then it should be criminal. I just dont understand how everthing the guy did is a civil case. If you commit a felony you get arrested.:confused:

[shelly]

It would, esp. if he admitted his wrongdoings. Also, I'd want to hear his side on the whole Cooperstown Forger fiasco. From what I've read, the evidence (or what seems like evidence) against Nash there is more damning than most of the evidence Nash posts against others.

Ken

Ken, again it comes back to not what he did but is what he is writeing fact or fiction. Untill now I see no one disagreeing with his findings. That is what is so crazy about this. Like everything else time will tell.
It was just about a year ago that Bill Mastro told the world the Wagner was trimmed.Not that half the world all ready knew it. Strang things do happen.

[Leon]

Leon, if he commited grand theft then it should be criminal. I just dont understand how everthing the guy did is a civil case. If commit a crime you get arrested.:confused:

I didn't say he committed grand theft. I don't even know the specifics of what it takes for that to be the case. Maybe he has the coaches corner syndrome. Does everything to the brink but not over it, concerning getting pinned. I don't know, that is just a guess. I don't think I have seen a criminal case against him either.

[slidekellyslide]

I guess what makes me angry about this thread is that all of the Peter Nash supporters won't even address his past issues with fraudulent behavior, we're supposed to ignore that and listen to what he is saying today. Or they try to downplay it calling it all a "Civil" matter. I think it's a bunch of crap. This guy ripped people off for a lot of money, he stole items that he was loaned and apparently has some connection to the mysterious "Cooperstown forger". I think some of you guys would take child care lessons from Casey Anthony. :mad:

[markf31]

I guess what makes me angry about this thread is that all of the Peter Nash supporters won't even address his past issues with fraudulent behavior, we're supposed to ignore that and listen to what he is saying today. Or they try to downplay it calling it all a "Civil" matter. I think it's a bunch of crap. This guy ripped people off for a lot of money, he stole items that he was loaned and apparently has some connection to the mysterious "Cooperstown forger". I think some of you guys would take child care lessons from Casey Anthony. :mad:

+1

I never trust people's assertions, I always judge of them by their actions.
- Ann Radcliffe (1764 - 1823), The Mysteries of Udolpho, 1764

[thecatspajamas]

Something else I don't understand are the blanket assessments that EVERYTHING Nash is saying now is truth, or EVERYTHING he says should be thrown out. Like it somehow has to be ALL one or the other. Personally, just from what I've read of his writing, I don't think the man is capable of speaking straight black-and-white truth. Everything he writes is mixed with personal vendetta and hidden agendas, so that it all comes out muddied and gray and leaves you guessing where the lines between truth and fiction are crossed.

There is an old saying: "The best lies carry an element of truth," and I think the converse also holds true. Something like, "The purest truth is tainted by a little lie," which is akin to Jim's oft-quoted analogy involving a drop of urine in a glass of water. I'm sure the debate regarding Nash will continue for as long as he mixes at least some truth into what he writes, but I would caution anyone to carefully examine whatever he serves up rather than pinching your nose and swallowing it all down. Maybe he's turned over a new leaf, maybe not, but I would suggest using caution with anyone who has been caught pissing in the water cooler...

[shelly]

I guess what makes me angry about this thread is that all of the Peter Nash supporters won't even address his past issues with fraudulent behavior, we're supposed to ignore that and listen to what he is saying today. Or they try to downplay it calling it all a "Civil" matter. I think it's a bunch of crap. This guy ripped people off for a lot of money, he stole items that he was loaned and apparently has some connection to the mysterious "Cooperstown forger". I think some of you guys would take child care lessons from Casey Anthony. :mad:

Dan who on here has said that he did nothing wrong. I have read a lot of remarks and outside of Travis everyone agrees that he did bad things. The only I I said if he did all these things why where they not felony"s. Every thing being said about him is over civil cases.
I dont beleive everyting I read and I sure as hell dont believe everything that is said

[slidekellyslide]

Dan who on here has said that he did nothing wrong. I have read a lot of remarks and outside of Travis everyone agrees that he did bad things. The only I I said if he did all these things why where they not felony"s. Every thing being said about him is over civil cases.
I dont beleive everyting I read and I sure as hell dont believe everything that is said

I do believe you are trying to downplay his past by bringing up civil vs criminal issues...why even bring it up? HE RIPPED PEOPLE OFF! And there are others here besides Travis who sit by silently even when questioned directly about Nash's past who just ignore the questions.

[shelly]

I do believe you are trying to downplay his past by bringing up civil vs criminal issues...why even bring it up? HE RIPPED PEOPLE OFF! And there are others here besides Travis who sit by silently even when questioned directly about Nash's past who just ignore the questions.

I have never down played his past. There is a HUGE difference between being a felon and someone being sued. If that is what you call defending him then I guess I am. You can not say he commited a crime when he has never been convicted of one. It is only your opinion that it should be a crime.
I will make this clear. I think what he has done in the past is terrible. If that means what he is doing now is wrong I would have to disagree.
Like I said about what he writes I believe half of what I read but it does make you think.

[Exhibitman]

This civil/criminal dichotomy that some posters here are citing as having some exculpatory value is nonsense. Acts that are civil wrongs are also criminal acts and vice versa. Whether or not an act is prosecuted as a crime says nothing about whether the act satisfies the elements of a crime. It has more to do with whether there is a complaint made to the authorities by a victim, to which authority the complaint is made, how easy it is to prove the case, whether the case has sufficient public considerations and interests to justify the expense of prosecution, whether the case is part of a civil action already [I have heard prosecutors say that they do not like to be used as a collections agency by a civil litigant], and a bunch of other considerations I am certainly missing. I will give you two concrete examples:

1. I had a case with a client accused of defrauding a securities investor. I defended the civil case the investor filed against him. The alleged victim/plaintiff then decided to take the matter to the D.A. in Ventura. The D.A. decided to allocate the resources to investigate the case and then decided to prosecute it once the investigation was done. My client pleaded guilty to a lesser offense in return for a light, no-prison sentence, and then lost the civil trial.

2. Another client of mine was swindled out of a lot of money in a stock investment that was sold to him in violation of the state's securities laws. I turned the matter into the Los Angeles District Attorney's office and to the state Attorney General's securities division for investigation but they declined to prosecute. My client eventually received compensation via a civil action.

In each case the act did not change; the difference was how it was perceived and handled by the prosecuting authority.

[slidekellyslide]

You can not say he commited a crime when he has never been convicted of one. It is only your opinion that it should be a crime.


Interesting...I guess stealing from the Hall of Fame and NYPL are not crimes either because I'm pretty sure that some of the people Peter Nash accuses of those crimes incidents were never convicted.

[mighty bombjack]

Interesting...I guess stealing from the Hall of Fame and NYPL are not crimes either because I'm pretty sure that some of the people Peter Nash accuses of those crimes incidents were never convicted.

Excellent point. If all we are interested in reading/talking about is criminal activity as defined by conviction in a court of law, then everything on Nash's blog is moot.

Are we talking about cleaning up a hobby that we love? If so, any and all wrongdoing is game for discussion.

I for one don't pay money to TPAs, and I won't pay money if Nash starts selling a book. From what I've seen, neither is good for the hobby.

[travrosty]

Interesting...I guess stealing from the Hall of Fame and NYPL are not crimes either because I'm pretty sure that some of the people Peter Nash accuses of those crimes incidents were never convicted.



Lifson was caught red handed so what are you talking about?

[mighty bombjack]

Lifson was caught red handed so what are you talking about?

Do you read posts, Travis? Did Lifson do anything listed in the post you quoted?

And why do you give a crap about Lifson, anyway? He isn't a TPA (who, unlike Lifson and Nash, are not currently the target of serious criminal or civil litigation).

[travrosty]

Do you read posts, Travis? Did Lifson do anything listed in the post you quoted?

And why do you give a crap about Lifson, anyway? He isn't a TPA (who, unlike Lifson and Nash, are not currently the target of serious criminal or civil litigation).

someone said people werent convicted and i corrected him and pointed out lifson was caught red handed stealing baseball material out of the library.

quit changing the subject.

i am with shelly, if someone's got something on someone, let's hear it. the so-called saber rattling is getting old.

HOS posts evidence, eyewitness accounts, what's the holdup?

[earlywynnfan]

someone said people werent convicted and i corrected him and pointed out lifson was caught red handed stealing baseball material out of the library.

quit changing the subject.

i am with shelly, if someone's got something on someone, let's hear it. the so-called saber rattling is getting old.

HOS posts evidence, eyewitness accounts, what's the holdup?


Travis, post #216 has some questions for you about the subject at hand. You are online right now, as I type this. Any chance you can respond??

Ken

PS: Also, I'm sure you are old enough to know the difference between "caught red handed" and "convicted," right?

[mighty bombjack]

someone said people werent convicted and i corrected him and pointed out lifson was caught red handed stealing baseball material out of the library.

quit changing the subject.

i am with shelly, if someone's got something on someone, let's hear it. the so-called saber rattling is getting old.

HOS posts evidence, eyewitness accounts, what's the holdup?

Wait, has Lifson been convicted of stealing from a library? I haven't read about that, but I may have missed it in the nastiness that can be this hobby.

Good question: What IS the holdup, Travis? Could it be that these "eyewitness accounts" won't hold up in a court of law? Could it be that these libraries don't care about what has been stolen? Could it be that you are buying into Nash's agenda more than most people?

Seems to me to be a mix of the three. OR MAYBE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS ARE BACKING THE TPAS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY INVESTED IN THE STATUS QUO!!!

I dunno, that's my attempt to peek into your mindset.

If Nash's accusations are legit, I hope they are investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Same with Nash's fraud, that seems to have been proven in civil court.

edited to add: finally on page four. Scrolling was getting rough on this bad boy.

[slidekellyslide]

someone said people werent convicted and i corrected him and pointed out lifson was caught red handed stealing baseball material out of the library.

quit changing the subject.

i am with shelly, if someone's got something on someone, let's hear it. the so-called saber rattling is getting old.

HOS posts evidence, eyewitness accounts, what's the holdup?

This is freaking hilarious....you totally ignored the legal papers posted by Leon in the first post of this thread. LOL!

[mighty bombjack]

This is freaking hilarious....you totally ignored the legal papers posted by Leon in the first post of this thread. LOL!

Yes, Travis has yet again implored someone (me) to "quit changing the subject." Yet, as has been pointed out by many, he is the one most consistently changing the subject away from the point of this thread, which is the wrongdoings of Nash within this hobby.

I do not expect him to respond to this or your post.

[Fuddjcal]

+1..Travis ignores anything that doesn't support his argument or beliefs.

Hence the man is an Ignoramus, IMHO

[Fuddjcal]

it's all a deflection against the tpa's, that is defending them. otherwise there would be the deflection. its not about me, i dont have anything to hide, so quit talking about me and lets talk about the tpa's.

The only deflection is the deflection from the Puck you must have taken upside your noggin as a small child....so hard that head it's amazing that you can go through life this way... complete irritating, inflaming jerkoff on every level, every day, all the time, in every situation, at every turn... ALWAYS and Forever, IMHO

[travrosty]

chuck tapia quit the hobby. but i would like to ask him a question.

what on HOS is not true? so you dont like the messenger, we get it. But the message is true and thats why people dont like it.

I don't call anyone names like that and it is only indicative of the fact he is losing the argument, that's when they resort to that type of language.

[slidekellyslide]

chuck tapia quit the hobby. but i would like to ask him a question.

what on HOS is not true? so you dont like the messenger, we get it. But the message is true and thats why people dont like it.

I don't call anyone names like that and it is only indicative of the fact he is losing the argument, that's when they resort to that type of language.

Your anonymous pals over at autographblahblahblah.com must really be losing the argument then.

[earlywynnfan]

chuck tapia quit the hobby. but i would like to ask him a question.

what on HOS is not true? so you dont like the messenger, we get it. But the message is true and thats why people dont like it.

I don't call anyone names like that and it is only indicative of the fact he is losing the argument, that's when they resort to that type of language.

What you don't realize is that you are spending time defending them here and they don't even want to come on here and defend themselves!

They let you do it for them, they don't bother.

[sago]

what on HOS is not true?

Nash's six degrees to Rob Lifson game. Most of what Nash writes about him are insinuations and nothing else. He wasn't Halper's confederate; he wrote catalog descriptions based on available information, pre-MEARS. Did people lose money buying Halper's fakes? Yes. Would Rob Lifson have been involved if he knew they were fakes? No way.

He most certainly has not ever created a trophy ball, or a whole case full of them, unlike someone else everyone would like to see Nash write about.

BTW Travis, I think a lot of what you write is helpful. But people are judged by the company they keep.

David Davis

"Hang out with trolls long enough, and you become one yourself. ". Jim Starlin

[slidekellyslide]

Nash's six degrees to Rob Lifson game. Most of what Nash writes about him are insinuations and nothing else. He wasn't Halper's confederate; he wrote catalog descriptions based on available information, pre-MEARS. Did people lose money buying Halper's fakes? Yes. Would Rob Lifson have been involved if he knew they were fakes? No way.

He most certainly has not ever created a trophy ball, or a whole case full of them, unlike someone else everyone would like to see Nash write about.

BTW Travis, I think a lot of what you write is helpful. But people are judged by the company they keep.

David Davis

"Hang out with trolls long enough, and you become one yourself. ". Jim Starlin

Well said...and you will never see Travis address the fake trophy ball, the stolen items, the Cooperstown forger, et cetera. I assume that Travis has an agenda as well and I'm not so sure I trust his word on autographs anymore.