Need Help: T206 Print Freak Question

[mrvster]

Hello All:)

As y'all know I love T206 printer's scraps/freaks ect....I have been collecting them since 2000 and have seen a lot of T206 in the past 13 years or so....I acquired this TOPSY HARTSEL "color shift" freak a year or two ago on ebay....I liked it because the color shift is so severe, his face is very blue, so I won and didn't put much thought to it, or the penciled writing on his uniform ,until a few weeks ago when I threw it up on B/S/T and got some advice on it from resident Net 54 printer Steve B.....

The shift is not your "typical" color shift....It is oddly more severe than the average shift......also, part of the small green section is not shifted the same way the rest of the card is....An interesting theory was proposed by Steve..

He said this looks like a type of "proofing" card a printer might run off a sheet to see if the plates had any "issues" before production/ color, ect...This particular card shows the plate problem with the obvious "shift" but the lower portion is not as "askew" as the rest of the plate....He also suggested that the "NOTATION" in the uniform is indicative of printers notes possibly looks like a good sign of printer notation....Upon closer inspection(I always thought the card looked short), It is short almost a 1/16 " of an inch...SGC might have missed the mark, they occasionally grade short cards to give a deviation of size to a small degree.....I think this card, if I re submit will come back "A" giving it more evidence of a type of "printers" proofing card...

Theory sounds very plausible....I need other opinions...

I need to see other Hartsels with the color shift( all the rest have the entire shift, and not just a partial shift as this card does have)....


Has anyone seen similar shifts???Harstels like this???

Has anyone seen printer's notes similar anywhere??

The penciled writing looks like a "g" and a "B" possibly the printer noting the green/blue shift plate problem????


opinions???

Thanks for the help and opinions....THIS ONE I'M IN THE DARK ON:confused:

Scan will be added shortly:o

[atx840]

http://i.imgur.com/oJrdkXs.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ACP4mru.jpg

[obcmac]

For some reason the Hartsel seems to frequently appear with the color shift, so I'm less likely to think it's a proof...but it's interesting.

Mac

[t206hound]

Hey Johnny, on your card the blue is shifted right. Is the background color that is NOT shifted yellow or light green? In Mac's card, it is definitely yellow...

[atx840]

The example on the BST right now has a darker shade of green in the lower right area.

As Erick mentioned the shifted color layers are different on the two examples.

Either the bottom corner is not included in the blue pass and uses a different combination of colors or..

they changed the plates and colors used after yours Johnny (and the BST example) to include that area with the remaining background.

[Jantz]

Hey Johnny

Here are a few shifts that are similar


Jantz

[t206hound]

For some reason the Hartsel seems to frequently appear with the color shift, so I'm less likely to think it's a proof...but it's interesting.

Mac

Mac, Out of curiosity... what back does your Hartsel have?

[obcmac]

Mac, Out of curiosity... what back does your Hartsel have?

SC350...just like Johnny's

[atx840]

Another SC350.

http://i.imgur.com/VBry2jO.jpg

[mrvster]

THANKS GUYs....

But all the Hartsels shown have the shift in the lower portion also....Jantz, Chris, Mac, and Erick....Thanks for the scans...


Mac, you hartsel HAS the shift in the lower portion...

most hartsels have the shift throughout the entire card, mine doesn't....

It has the similar SHIFT as the STREET SCRAP shown....


I think my hartsel is a special card, but I need more hartsels to prove it...


STEVE HELP!:D

[wonkaticket]

Johnny my only oddball with notes..could be from 100yrs ago during the printing process....who knows...

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/lfCANI0V4X.jpg

[mrvster]

:eek:

you know I absolutely love that card:eek:

man, this hartsel card is driving me nuts:)

[MVSNYC]

Johnny, i see what you mean, very interesting that the lower right area doesn't have the shift...not sure if this card adds to the conversation at all, but just got from Jamie. (again, not my head in pictures) :)

[mrvster]

super card.....I almost bought it from the previous owner before Jamie had it.... I have wanted that Sweeney for years! glad you got it.....

btw....I had a conversation about your Sweeney with Erick s....i'm sure he'll chime in about it...

glad you posted, cause I LOVE SGC....but they missed the mark on grading this...


re submit it...MIKE IT IS PRINTERS SCRAP!!!

trust me, I have never held in hand, it is cut fairly straight(some scrap was obviously neatly trimmed, they are harder to differentiate because the borders aren't a dead give away)...


SWEENEY IS SCRAP AND SHOULD BE GRADED "AUTH"

congrats on a beauty...BTW.....a plate issue as hartsel



:D

[CW]

The Stahl that Jantz posted, while not the same as the Hartsel, also has what you might call an odd, partial color shift.

[mrvster]

btw...get a haircut :D:)

[mrvster]

the stahl has the shift on both parts of the plate....the yellow shifted on both sides to create the green background.....typical of any of the color shifts...


tim, jim, steve , Erick :confused:

many others id love to hear opinions...

especially steve b

[EGreenwood]

Here is my lone example - Piedmont 150

http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u585/egreenwood72/T206_Crandall_P150_zps18a32af0.jpg (http://s1323.photobucket.com/user/egreenwood72/media/T206_Crandall_P150_zps18a32af0.jpg.html)

[mrvster]

cool color shift:)

[atx840]

cool color shift:)

+1

:)

[teetwoohsix]

Nice card Johnny!!

Mine is a bad scan, but it has a slight shift similar to Mac's card- just for comparrison purposes:

Sincerely, Clayton

[mrvster]

Keep em coming:)

[t206hound]

When I spoke to Johnny about the Sweeney, to me it looks like there is a separate GREEN pass on that card. On the Sweeney, that shift is of a darker green color shifted right. Note how it goes over the white uniform and still looks green. The light blue pass is slightly shifted left which lets you see a sliver of yellow on the lower right of the card within the frame. This means that the yellow is NOT shifted. I believe that yellow and light blue make up the light green on the Sweeney, but the only explanation for shift is a separate green pass.

[t206hound]

I looked at my EPDG in hand last night, and the color in the bottom right corner is different/darker than the rest of the green on the card. There is a very slight yellow shift to the right

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/t206hound/epdg/11737/hartsel-topsy

[frankbmd]

Nice card Johnny!!

Mine is a bad scan, but it has a slight shift similar to Mac's card- just for comparrison purposes:

Sincerely, Clayton

Clayton, my Piedmont Hartsel is shiftier than yours. :D

This isn't just a Sweet Cap phenomena.:eek:

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/frankbmd/t206-psa/10437/hartsel

[atx840]

Nice one Erick, that's what I've noticed on a few of these...that corner is darker. Likely an extra color or combination for that one spot that does not include the blue layer we see shifted in Johnny's.

The background is much darker on some, possibly they changed the combination that makes up the green as the series was printed.

[steve B]

Ericks EP is interesting. It looks like the lower right was done by overlaying a darker blue. If you look at the left edges of the lower right are and the main background the blue left showing by the yelow shift is different.


The card Johnny has is also really interesting.

I'm convinced the plates were laid out using transfers. The various caption problems- missing sections, partly doubled name or team, all are the sort of thing you'd see with a damaged transfer or one that shifted during layout.

When I looked at Johnnys card back when he had it on BST I went and looked at the Hartsels on Ebay. There were some with small shifts, but none with a different shift for the lower right corner.

That made me think about how one area could shift so far leaving the second area in the correct spot.
If the transfer became folded, the upper section could be displaced making a "shift" that was on the plate.
There are a number of surviving cigar lable proofing books from ALC that show the different colors being tested and changes made, with new corrected proofs added in. (And oddly they're not all that expensive. I wonder where all the card proofing books went? )

So I figured the plate was made, turned out to be faulty, and after the first few sheets were made one was marked to show mistakes. A big mistake would probably be corrected. And that big of a misalignment is a big mistake.
That would make the card a real oddity, the only term I could think of was a late stage proof. Which doesn't really fit well, but is simpler than "printed from a rejected blue plate" which also doesn't fit well.

We talked briefly about making a trade, and I felt that if it was what I thought, I had nothing that even came close. I also felt that a lot more research was needed to be able to prove that.

So far all the Hartsels shown have equal shifts in both areas. Except for the EPDG! Which obviously has a completely different setup for what color went where.

There are a few examples of other changes within the 350 series, the easiest to spot are the Demmitt and O'Hara. But Ganzel has either the background far into the hat or not (Not listed as a variation, and finding examples of each is very easy- I think the split is close to 50/50.)
There are also differences between series, like Conroy fielding with or without stripes on the hat.

Seeing the corner on the EP has mostly changed my mind about Johnnys card. It's probably not a bad plate, but a large shift on a card showing a the difference between the two diferent layouts very nicely. There's still a chance of the plate being bad, but it's looking much less likely.

I think it's still an important piece of the puzzle, and it will be interesting to see how many turn up with each version.

Steve B

[atx840]

Nice Steve, figured that's likely the case. Here is the example on the BST I mentioned with the darker corner. Still a super cool card Johnny!

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/christopher_herman/1909-11-t206-sweet-caporal-tobacco-cards/5559/hartsel-topsy

[Jantz]

I can't really add anymore to the Hartsel discussion, but I would like to point out that the Sweeney is an interesting card for various reasons. The two most obvious reasons are that it has a color shift and the back is mis-cut. A third reason is that there is a Piedmont wet sheet transfer also. Look at the right border near his upper arm area. And finally the green ink in the left border from the card front next to it on the sheet.

If one of us took some time we may be able to identify the player next to Sweeney.

The Hartsel and Sweeney cards with the color shifts are interesting. Here is one more with an interesting color shift.


Jantz

[atx840]

Sweeney is part of this 350 series grouping. Should be easy enough to figure out.

1 4 Abstein, Bill Pittsburg
2 33 Bender, Chief (With Trees) Philadelphia Amer.
3 64 Burns, Bill Chicago Amer.
4 71 Campbell, Billy Cincinnati
5 100 Collins, Eddie Philadelphia Amer.
6 112 Cree, Birdie New York Amer.
7 129 Dineen, Bill St. Louis Amer.
8 151 Dubuc, Jean Cincinnati
9 153 Dunn, Jack Baltimore
10 154 Dunn, Joe Brooklyn
11 172 Fiene, Lou (Throwing) Chicago Amer.
12 202 Hannifan, Jack Jersey City
13 205 Hartsel, Topsy Philadelphia Amer.
14 310 McAleese, John St. Louis Amer.
15 313 McCormick, Moose New York Nat'l
16 354 Myers, Chief (Fielding) New York Nat'l
17 361 Oberlin, Frank Minneapolis
18 464 Stephens, Jim St. Louis Amer.
19 473 Sweeney, Bill Boston Nat'l
20 482 Thomas, Ira Philadelphia Amer.
21 515 Wilson, Owen Pittsburg
22 524 Zimmerman, Heinie Chicago Nat'l

[Gradedcardman]

Campbell, Cree or Wilson ?

[atx840]

Looks like Campbell or Cree.

http://i.imgur.com/hpSe9QV.png

[Gradedcardman]

Based on color shade I lean toward Campbell.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Great Thread!:)Dave. Donlin epdg slight color shift. BTW is color shift another way of saying the printing "registration"(sp?) is off, or "poor registration"?

[mrvster]

Some extremely interesting theories.....thanks so much for the input everyone, especially steve:)....

this card still has me on the fence.....has anyone figured out the "b" and "g"??? pencil writing??? blue/green shift???:confused:

card is too extreme for normal factory production color shifts....still don't see too many FACTORY issued color shifts this dramatic....:confused:

i'm still super confused.....card has a "funny" trim....:confused:

[mrvster]

printer note??

"green" 00

"blue" 1


plate designation???steve??

i'm ready to send the card to you steve and have in broken out of the tomb to see if we can get anymore insight:D

[steve B]

No need to bust it out. I can get decent 1200dpi scans right through the slab. Plus getting a look with the 40X magnifier if my daughter hasn't run off with it.

Steve B

[steve B]

Great Thread!:)Dave. Donlin epdg slight color shift. BTW is color shift another way of saying the printing "registration"(sp?) is off, or "poor registration"?

Yes.

There are other shifts, but only if the plates are made wrong. That's very uncommon.

Steve B

[martindl]

As a long time collector I have to say how much I love the diversity of peoples' collecting. I say this purely as an observation; years ago, such out of register cards were the one's you left on the table. Now they're revered and sought after. Cool stuff. Thanks to all for sharing.

That Hartsel no-right-bottom-shift is something else.

[mrvster]

guys like you keep us going:)

thanks for the comments:D

[teetwoohsix]

Clayton, my Piedmont Hartsel is shiftier than yours. :D

This isn't just a Sweet Cap phenomena.:eek:

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/frankbmd/t206-psa/10437/hartsel

:D Very shifty Frank, very shifty. Beautiful card!!

Sincerely, Clayton

[MVSNYC]

Chris- very cool detective work on the sweeney shift. i think campbell as well.

[D. Broughman]

Manning