JSA, PSA: Fake Sonny Listons piling up?

[toybulldog]

Yet another no rhyme or reason Sonny Liston autograph entering the hobby? This one is with compliments of JSA. Just compared to over 110 authentic examples and can't find one even remotely close to this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321147665007?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Can any supporters of these TPA's explain what is meant in the listing "The autographs were certified authentic, as a pair, by James Spence Authentication (Letter of Authenticity #X87798)."

Can autographs that aren't real be "authenticated" by a TPA, if so how?

http://www.fighttoys.com/Liston,Sonny%20non%20authentic%208d%20SR.jpg

http://www.fighttoys.com/Liston,Sonny%20non%20authentic%208b%20SR.JPG

Would love to see the variations of Sonny Liston's signature the JSA staff of experts has that are consistent with the above. If they don't have any that are consistent what would that be called?

http://www.fighttoys.com/Liston,Sonny%20non%20authentic%208e%20SR.jpg

[travrosty]

But Mark, they put the fancy pants machine to it. You mean it's not real?

Does Jsa know boxing, I would just like to know.

The autograph is consistent considering a wide range of specific qualities

I guess that range is 'reeeeaaaallllly' wide! Where are the specifics in this autographs? it's a glossed over little bumpy line. Where is the details in the sig? there are none.

The scary part is that they say they are using exemplars. Quoting the movie Full Metal Jacket. just "what is their major malfunction"?

[sago]

Feels more like forensic document examination than signature authentication.

[JimStinson]

According to George Foreman in an interview he had this to say about Sonny Liston's signing

"I saw him sign autographs evidently he'd met a priest somewhere down the line who'd shown him how to DRAW his autograph , we'd both sign them and I'd be done and he was still signing, he always signed with his right hand"

Note the word DRAW, A genuine Liston signature is not signed it is drawn.

The following was explained to me personally by one of Liston's handlers

"Sonny could and did sign , But he would hover over the autograph and labor with it , it was uncomfortable to watch and took him a long time to sign his name he was unable to sign anything other than his name and once in awhile someone would ask that something be signed TO them and Sonny would ignore them or on rare occasions would have them PRINT what they wanted him to write and he would just write it in block letters"

For More information on Sonny Liston, I have attached a story I wrote in 1995. Since it was fairly recent maybe the information in the story has not made the rounds yet. Also did a detailed analysis in 1992 in USA TODAY which I think at the time had the largest circulation of any newspaper in the World.
Note in the story pictured here the signature on the first page is his wife Geraldine who insisted her entire life that she never signed for her late husband which simply is not true. The other Liston signatures in the article are in person examples. I hope everyone finds this helpful.
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
web site
stinsonsports.com

[toybulldog]

Here's the one in question surrounded by some real ones. He seemed to get a bit more fluent toward the late 60's. JSA, how did your intuitive sense determine this to be real? Can your experts who are extremely familiar with the different variations and evolution of Sonny Liston's autograph come on here and show us where this one fits in? And how?

http://www.fighttoys.com/Liston,Sonny%2086%20comparison%20SR.jpg

[travrosty]

I guess jsa requires 7 people to look at it, of which 5 must score it positive.

does it matter if 50 people looked at it over there, if 50 people don't know liston's autograph?

This is unbelievable and up until this time I thought that maybe they are just very poor at boxing signatures, now I am beginning to think there is something else afoot when stuff like this continues to happen over and over and over again.

What's wrong with you, JSA?

[travrosty]

Liston autograph 101:

If you see where the capital L in Liston starts in relationship the the y in Sonny, you will see it very consistent over almost every Liston autograph you ever see.

Does the JSA boner autograph has this spatial relationship? NO

strike 1

red flag

[Runscott]

Note the word DRAW, A genuine Liston signature is not signed it is drawn.

That would seem to be all we need, except for all the 'drawn' autographs of Gehrig, Ruth, etc., that forum members think are signed.

Also, thanks Travis, for pointing this out. The great thing about not knowing much (me) is that there's always something to learn.

[travrosty]

no problem, the beginning of the L is much more closer to the top of the capital S than it is to the y, which is bad.

Another thing to look for is the baseline of each of the first and last names. in real Liston signatures, the baseline will usually go up from left to right in the first name Sonny, and then start lower again for the last name, and go up again at a slant.

If you draw a straight line at the base of the letters in Sonny, and extend that line until it hits the word Liston, it will usually hit the word Liston in the backside of the capital L from anywhere from about 50% up to 100% up to the top of the capital L.

In this fake, you can see the baseline of the word Sonny hits the word Liston very low, about 15% of the way up. (just eyeballing it). the baseline almost extends unimpeded all the way through the word Liston. You can almost draw a straight line from the bottom of the word Sonny all the way through the bottom of the word Liston and it almost lines up. Very little difference in baseline, as opposed to usually a great difference in baseline in authentic examples.

note: these are rules of thumbs, there can always exist an odd one that breaks the rule somewhat, like the authentic example at the left of the collage, the baseline hits about 30% of the way up, but the rest of the autograph is what we would expect. One characteristic doesn't necessarily sink an autograph, but several do, this has more than several defects.

strike 2

red flag

[shelly]

The problem with the big boys is that they will never admit defeat. They authenticate items that they have no idea if they are authentic or not. It is all about cash.
Yes, you can make a mistake but when you have no idea what you are doing that is not a mistake that is out and out stealing.:eek:

[travrosty]

They haven't a clue, but their promtional material says they meticulously go through each autograph and their years of experience of knowing all the subtle differences in the evolution of a particular athlete's signature allow them to figure out the genuine article from the forgery.

that's all a bunch of baloney. 100% baloney from word one onward.

it's all fake, the company doesnt know these autographs, they never will because they never own up to them. They have no experts in these areas.

[travrosty]

liston autograph 101

the i and s and the o and the n in Liston is glossed over, just little bumps, very low profile with no details, its so low profile it almost doesnt exist. Same with the n-n in Sonny. This does not jive with real liston examples.

Another thing odd about this signature is the very high t in Liston. Sometimes the t gets tall, almost as tall as the capital L but in this example you can see it is taller than the capital L in Liston.

Strike 3, you are out.

red flag - go back to boxing autograph authentication school

[trt58]

I agree with Shelly , and I'll go further JSA And Psa need to be investigated , they are corrupt, they will approve stuff that is bad , and they will reject stuff that is good . I have a Good Sonny Liston from my Uncle this index card was autographed at Sonny Liston's training camp in Peoria Illinois before the Patterson fight signed in front of him in. JSA wants $150 to authenticate, I'm tired of dealing with them. I have had several items in the past authenticated by both companies , but they both suck , they will have some stuff for 90 days then they give you back this letter saying they can make a decision , but you have credit ou can use for a year,. You mean to tell me you looked at an autograph for 90 days and had how many of your so call experts look at it and you can't make a decision. They don't even have any degrees or education in forensic handwriting . I met James spence's son and another JSA employee when they come out here in scottsdale az every 3 weeks , they don't have any kind of degree or an kind of forensic training other than from James spence Sr.

[D. Bergin]

I hate to say it, but you would have trouble getting anybody to authenticate that piece, and guys who attach the phrase "forensic examiner" to their resume, generally do not have a good reputation in this hobby.

Even if a reputable guy has "forensic training", they certainly are not going to brag about it these days. Plenty of others have put a nice big scarlet letter of shame on that phrase.

[1880nonsports]

if Rich Galasso is still in the hobby?

[shelly]

I hate to say it, but you would have trouble getting anybody to authenticate that piece, and guys who attach the phrase "forensic examiner" to their resume, generally do not have a good reputation in this hobby.

Even if a reputable guy has "forensic training", they certainly are not going to brag about it these days. Plenty of others have put a nice big scarlet letter of shame on that phrase.

Funy you should say that. When Spence was the authenticator on now defunked show he would take great pride is saying he was forensic examiner. When not on the show he would blast forensic examiners. Jimmey is someone I would never trust to say if something is good or bad. That being said Steve Grad falls into that area as well.

[1880nonsports]

"The most expensive autograph you can ever buy is one that's not authentic".

[Big Dave]

I believe Spence stated in one of the lawsuits he has been involved with, that he took a mail order forensic handwriting course and it was on his resume'.

[travrosty]

spence plays both sides of the fence, in the pcce video, he bashes forensices, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcBfhtuS5fE this is part one, i dont know which part he mentions forensics, only that he does.

then when it is convenient like his internet credentials, he likes to brag he has a forensics certificate.

that liston, by the way, no good, that is a wife signed liston, sonny must have been there, took the index card, passed it off to Geraldine below the radar and then gave it back to the collector.

[Exhibitman]

And that is a perfect example of how inauthentic material becomes enshrined as good. Uncle goes to the camp, gets the signed index card, the story becomes it was signed by Liston in front of him, and the next generation takes that as gospel. No intent to commit any deception or other malfeasance, just distorted eyewitness testimony.

[JimStinson]

Here is another one , Its a GPC postmarked Jan 5th, 1965. Signed by Mrs. Geraldine (The Devil Made me Do It) Liston I've had it for years. Wish it WAS signed by Sonny but its not.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
web site
stinsonsports.com

[johnmh71]

that liston, by the way, no good, that is a wife signed liston, sonny must have been there, took the index card, passed it off to Geraldine below the radar and then gave it back to the collector.

So I guess JSA got it right. You have to call it both ways.

[thetruthisoutthere]

I agree with Shelly , and I'll go further JSA And Psa need to be investigated , they are corrupt, they will approve stuff that is bad , and they will reject stuff that is good . I have a Good Sonny Liston from my Uncle this index card was autographed at Sonny Liston's training camp in Peoria Illinois before the Patterson fight signed in front of him in. JSA wants $150 to authenticate, I'm tired of dealing with them. I have had several items in the past authenticated by both companies , but they both suck , they will have some stuff for 90 days then they give you back this letter saying they can make a decision , but you have credit ou can use for a year,. You mean to tell me you looked at an autograph for 90 days and had how many of your so call experts look at it and you can't make a decision. They don't even have any degrees or education in forensic handwriting . I met James spence's son and another JSA employee when they come out here in scottsdale az every 3 weeks , they don't have any kind of degree or an kind of forensic training other than from James spence Sr.

You have the nerve to call PSA and JSA corrupt while you post a photo of a Sonny Liston secretarial-signed autograph.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

[travrosty]

He did say they will pass the stuff that is bad, and they have passed numerous wife signed listons in the past, no one can dispute that.

[travrosty]

So I guess JSA got it right. You have to call it both ways.



You gotta be kidding me, first off, he never said he sent it in, just that jsa wanted 150 to look at it.

both psa and jsa certed these wife signed as good for many years, and it was only until some hobbyists in the boxing autograph world like myself and others started notifying the auction houses that these were bad and wife signed did the certification of these phony liston's stop.

But just last year psa certed a wife signed liston wtih Grad signing off on it so what is the deal with that? They didnt even learn nor care. Spence doesnt know boxing, Grad doesn't know boxing. IF they knew boxing, we wouldn't be able to show you dozens upon dozens of stupid errors that they have made and keep making.

They don't know liston's autograph at all so i give them no credit whatsoever.

And as for the word corrupt goes, both psa and jsa certed a tom sayers autograph from the late 1880's as good, but it got pulled from auction after they got caught with no exemplars on which to make their certification. Then the certs went away. So define the word corrupt and see if it applies in this case. If it doesn't then show the exemplars they used especially since the certs say specifically that the autograph matches exemplars we have encountered in the hobby.

THEY can't have it both ways.