Unbelievable Marciano mess with certification-breaking story.

[travrosty]

hobby news regarding autographs-Hauls of shame breaking big story on the validity of dozens of high price Rocky Marciano "signed" letters being sold for years and years.

full disclosure- i am in the story.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=21872&cpage=1#comment-200791

[D. Bergin]

I wouldn't put all the blame on PSA and JSA regarding these letters. They also fooled plenty of well respected boxing guys for years.

The signatures are very convincing but the content, and known facts about the general behavior of Marciano give them away.

I know a couple of guys who sussed these out years ago.

Funny how they say, one of Marciano's brothers say "they may not be legit". His bro's are the last people I'd want authenticating his autograph.

[cubsfan-budman]

I wouldn't put all the blame on PSA and JSA regarding these letters. They also fooled plenty of well respected boxing guys for years.

The signatures are very convincing but the content, and known facts about the general behavior of Marciano give them away.

I know a couple of guys who sussed these out years ago.

Funny how they say, one of Marciano's brothers say "they may not be legit". His bro's are the last people I'd want authenticating his autograph.

That's all fine, but once they know they're wrong, why won't they admit they're wrong? at minimum, update your exemplars!

[shelly]

I never see them say I am sorry or we got it wrong. This is starting to be a habit with them:mad:

[jerseygary]

Being a TPA means never having to say "I'm sorry".

And did you catch the stupid oval JSA sticker affixed to the back that shows through one of the fake letterheads? What the hell is wrong with people!

[D. Bergin]

The auction house mentioned has sold at least 5 of these over the years, according to their own search engine..........without any help from the TPA's.

[slidekellyslide]

Rob Lifson is mentioned 4 times in that article and it has nothing to do with him.

[Mr. Zipper]

So the most recent letter gets pulled, which most reasonable people would say is a good thing if it is not authentic...

And how does HOS spin it?

"JSA is battling its own contradictory opinions..."

"JSA’s determination that the document was not actually signed by the boxing champ who hailed from Brockton, Massachusetts, is at odds with Spence’s own prior authentications..."

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And some wonder why any TPA is hesitant to publicly admit mistakes? If they do, the smear sites bash them over the head with it one way or another.

By the way Travis.... any update on the Jim Corbett ISP someone posted at the beginning of May? Is it real or not? You said at the time, "we are gonna look at it for awhile to give a qualified, informed opinion." With that big scan and that much handwriting, one would think it would be an easy call for an expert such as yourself.

Here is the link for your reference: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=168277&highlight=corbett

[travrosty]

I think it's time for these companies to just stop doing boxing, i mean, what a mess, they are authenticating these items with no historical or timeline type of context at all.

its just stamp the coa and cash the checks. It's no one elses fault but these two companies. they did it, and now what a mess there is. there are going to be massive refund requests. 2000 per letter on the word of these two companies.

i mean just when are they going to get some boxing experts and quit shooting airballs?

REA stands behind spence, they choose to, but when it comes up snake eyes, they will have to either keep sticking with him or re-evaluate it. You can't take the praise on a huge success of an item and then duck the scorn when another item turns into a pumpkin at midnight. It's up to REA to use who they want. No one forced REA or any auction house to use JSA. When they use JSA and hand Spence a boxing piece, they have to ask themselves, "Am I handing this boxing autograph to the most knowledge boxing autograph resource in the hobby". If they can't answer yes, then why are they giving it to him? If they can answer that question with a yes , then i dont know what else i could show them or tell them to get them to wake up and smell the coffee.

http://blog.robertedwardauctions.com/?p=83

[travrosty]

These marciano letters were being certed when both grad and spence were working together all those years ago. Then also separately between the two companies when they split.

between those two guys together they couldnt figure it out, but how many of these stories do we have to break before consumers wake up to the realization that these guys are not experts at this stuff.

Can anybody show me just what makes them an expert in boxing autographs?

How many wife signed liston's, wife signed fitzsimmons, manager signed marcianos, manager signed fitzsimmons, manager signed dempsey's, manager signed joe Louis do we have to see with their certs attached before the tide turns and people see a cert from these two companies alongside a boxing autograph and do the common sense thing and throw it (the cert) in the trash and get a real qualified opinion!

Now for the hundredth time in a row Joe O. will not make an appearance anywhere to discuss this debacle and to reassure collectors that they are doing anything about the situation to make sure these boxing blunders will not happen again. is he playing golf, maybe bowling, maybe surfing. I dont know, but handling these situations he is not! They subscribe to the "ignbore it and it will go away" theory to autograph authentication.

[mighty bombjack]

The auction house mentioned has sold at least 5 of these over the years, according to their own search engine..........without any help from the TPA's.

Who, Leland's?

[travrosty]

I wish these were space autographs that we were talking about over and over and over again, mr. zarelli would be singing such a different tune!

[sago]

Rob Lifson is mentioned 4 times in that article and it has nothing to do with him.
I would have guessed more.

[thetruthisoutthere]

So the most recent letter gets pulled, which most reasonable people would say is a good thing if it is not authentic...

And how does HOS spin it?

"JSA is battling its own contradictory opinions..."

"JSA’s determination that the document was not actually signed by the boxing champ who hailed from Brockton, Massachusetts, is at odds with Spence’s own prior authentications..."

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And some wonder why any TPA is hesitant to publicly admit mistakes? If they do, the smear sites bash them over the head with it one way or another.

By the way Travis.... any update on the Jim Corbett ISP someone posted at the beginning of May? Is it real or not? You said at the time, "we are gonna look at it for awhile to give a qualified, informed opinion." With that big scan and that much handwriting, one would think it would be an easy call for an expert such as yourself.

Here is the link for your reference: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=168277&highlight=corbett

Mr. Zipper, it looks like Mr. Stinson took care of it.

Amazing that Travis was able to explain why that putrid Mantle autograph is a forgery, but Travis, the self-proclaimed boxing expert, after a month, still isn't able to opine on the Corbett.

[toybulldog]

Compliments of the boxing guys if it will help alleviate the silly Jim Corbett issue:

http://www.fighttoys.com/Corbett,Jas.%20J.%2038%20Jim%20comparison%20SR.jpg

I'd rather try to find out who is behind yet another elaborate hoax involving Rocky Marciano. Sports Quest publication with a Columbia University address? Who, what, where, when and how?

[travrosty]

Mr. Zipper, it looks like Mr. Stinson took care of it.

Amazing that Travis was able to explain why that putrid Mantle autograph is a forgery, but Travis, the self-proclaimed boxing expert, after a month, still isn't able to opine on the Corbett.



what mister authentication here doesnt understand, and never will, is that there is no time limit to authentication. they all want a 5 second authentication, well thats great, if i require the item in hand to make an authentication, then maybe i will just ask for it, i am not charging anything. psa and jsa charge 150 dollars apiece, and then get it wrong and keep the money and nobody gives a whit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

especially not Mr. authentication here who likes to bash people for not giving their opinion as opposed to rushing and giving one and who cares about accuracy, right?

[travrosty]

So the most recent letter gets pulled, which most reasonable people would say is a good thing if it is not authentic...

And how does HOS spin it?

"JSA is battling its own contradictory opinions..."

"JSA’s determination that the document was not actually signed by the boxing champ who hailed from Brockton, Massachusetts, is at odds with Spence’s own prior authentications..."

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

And some wonder why any TPA is hesitant to publicly admit mistakes? If they do, the smear sites bash them over the head with it one way or another.

By the way Travis.... any update on the Jim Corbett ISP someone posted at the beginning of May? Is it real or not? You said at the time, "we are gonna look at it for awhile to give a qualified, informed opinion." With that big scan and that much handwriting, one would think it would be an easy call for an expert such as yourself.

Here is the link for your reference: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=168277&highlight=corbett

I am glad you are giving me deadlines on how and when to authenticate for free? nice. I'd be happy to do the same in return if someone has a space item.

by the way, jsa called them secretarial, and they they aren't, so maybe they need to square a few things away. psa and jsa require it in hand and a 150 dollar fee, so i won't bow down to your demands to authenticate anything in a certain time frame that YOU choose, okay? Rushing into things is what gets people into this mess, i.e. marciano, just ask jsa and psa.

This is one of the biggest autograph hoaxes ever in boxing, and someone's corbett is your concern? If these marciano's were ACE or STAT, it would be a 45 page thread, now it's no big deal i suppose?

Where is the full disclosure that you work for JSA? why do you not disclose that when it is time to stick up for them. They blew it and now you won't put on your JSA badge, why not?

To JSA, the Marciano letters are NOT secretarial, they are made out of whole cloth. JSA still couldnt get it right. No secretary for marciano is going to sign the exact same autograph, the EXACT same, for 10 years, and just sign that secretarial autograph to one man, Reinmuth, and no one else that Rocky ever writes to? and on stationary that never pops up anywhere else except to this one guy? It's not secretarial. He didn't have anyone else sign for him, except his wife signed a few and his brother, but we know what their handwriting looks like and this was intentional to deceive by making very deliberate signature that look the same over ten years, he didn't have a secretary signing his name.

I would like to see jsa's reasoning and proof on how these are secretarial. Maybe JSA can't get it right, but bash me please on being careful and not jumping the gun and handing out opinions willy nilly like two companies I know.

It's not a smear site to show their total ineptitude. They never admit anything because that's all they would be doing. And we wouldn't want companies doing the right thing and admitting when they don't know what they are doing. If they had the info earlier, why didn't they help the consumer and help stop these at auction.

ANSWER:Because they don't care one whit about anyone but themselves. That's why helping them isn't a solution for anything, only a complete revamp from bottom to top, top to bottom will help anyone. They need total house cleaning and as long as the same two or three guys are in charge, nothing will happen to make it any better.

Look, they still have up the bad fitzsimmons on autographs facts over at psa. WHY? they know it's bad. It's because they don't care about anyone but themselves, that's why. Man up psa, and jsa.

[thetruthisoutthere]

what mister authentication here doesnt understand, and never will, is that there is no time limit to authentication. they all want a 5 second authentication, well thats great, if i require the item in hand to make an authentication, then maybe i will just ask for it, i am not charging anything. psa and jsa charge 150 dollars apiece, and then get it wrong and keep the money and nobody gives a whit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

especially not Mr. authentication here who likes to bash people for not giving their opinion as opposed to rushing and giving one and who cares about accuracy, right?

But, Travis, you were very quick to examine, analyze and opine on that putrid Mickey Mantle in five seconds.....

[travrosty]

Compliments of the boxing guys if it will help alleviate the silly Jim Corbett issue:

http://www.fighttoys.com/Corbett,Jas.%20J.%2038%20Jim%20comparison%20SR.jpg

I'd rather try to find out who is behind yet another elaborate hoax involving Rocky Marciano. Sports Quest publication with a Columbia University address? Who, what, where, when and how?



You know it is funny that JSA and PSA authenticate the hotel lobby guestbook featuring fake signatures of corbett, t. sharkey and jeffries as real and THAT one features the Jim Jeffries, which is the extreme rare/nonexistant way of signing Jeffries first name and no one cares if they blew that one. Because I am sure PSA and JSA knows how Jeffries signed his first name. NOT! They don't know boxing, we all know it except the people who don't want the gravy train to stop. PSA also says in its AutographFacts that Robert Fitzsimmons sometimes signed his first name as Robt. Oy Vey!

[travrosty]

only on net54, will the defenders of the status quo, b.s. authentications from psa and jsa, can jsa cert this piece of junk corbett signature, and R@ste calls it out for being a fake, and its no big deal, and conversely R@ste is careful and takes time to look at another Corbett auto to make sure to get it right, and may even require it to be sent in person, or maybe even give a no opinion, is R@ste a jerk?

Maybe Spence could benefit from giving a few no opinions.

Only in bizarro world does the person who gets it wrong get a pass, and the person who is careful gets the pitchfork. Why is that, mr. penguin.?

[ibuysportsephemera]

hobby news regarding autographs-Hauls of shame breaking big story on the validity of dozens of high price Rocky Marciano "signed" letters being sold for years and years.

full disclosure- i am in the story.

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=21872&cpage=1#comment-200791

"I am in the story"- Travis you are the whole story!

[Fuddjcal]

only on net54, will the defenders of the status quo, b.s. authentications from psa and jsa, can jsa cert this piece of junk corbett signature, and R@ste calls it out for being a fake, and its no big deal, and conversely R@ste is careful and takes time to look at another Corbett auto to make sure to get it right, and may even require it to be sent in person, or maybe even give a no opinion, is R@ste a jerk?

Maybe Spence could benefit from giving a few no opinions.

Only in bizarro world does the person who gets it wrong get a pass, and the person who is careful gets the pitchfork. Why is that, mr. penguin.?

It is a big deal, they are wrong and they don't get a pass. That doesn't change the fact that you are probably one of the biggest unadulterated jack asses, in every situation that I have seen since forums were created, IMHO

[travrosty]

"I am in the story"- Travis you are the whole story!

maybe but i dont want to be, others helped but its not easy to put your name out there when strange things happen when you do. you get banned from auction houses and get remembered by people that have too much power in the hobby. They had their day in the sun and defending the indefensible like abc and xyz isn't going to work much longer. I have always said I am not against third party authentication as a concept, I think it could work if it were done right, and done responsibly and with check and balances and a customers bill of rights, using experts who know what they are doing and don't cut corners. I have always said that. I am just against the way it is being done right now.

The day will come when you won't see these guys defend their buddies in the abc, xyz industry. When that day comes i will start a thread inviting them to defend those companies, and no one will show up. They will deny them three times before the cock crows. They will say they weren't that close and never really knew those guys. We will all know the truth though. Just wait.

Bill Mastro was king and people were his buddy and photo op every time they had a chance and to speak out was to risk something. Now what happened? You can speak out about him freely because the defenders and buddies won't bother you about it anymore because they jumped off like rats on a burning ship.

[travrosty]

PSA certed 9 of these marciano lettters IN A ROW a few years ago. That means they had all 9 side by side and couldn't figure out the signatures were way too exact spanning over a few years of letters. They had a chance to see it for what it was, but why didnt they catch it?

Are they certifying too fast, too furious?

Joe O., plese comment of how your main guy can't look at 9 of these letters side by side and figure it out?

[thetruthisoutthere]

maybe but i dont want to be, others helped but its not easy to put your name out there when strange things happen when you do. you get banned from auction houses and get remembered by people that have too much power in the hobby. They had their day in the sun and defending the indefensible like abc and xyz isn't going to work much longer. I have always said I am not against third party authentication as a concept, I think it could work if it were done right, and done responsibly and with check and balances and a customers bill of rights, using experts who know what they are doing and don't cut corners. I have always said that. I am just against the way it is being done right now.

The day will come when you won't see these guys defend their buddies in the abc, xyz industry. When that day comes i will start a thread inviting them to defend those companies, and no one will show up. They will deny them three times before the cock crows. They will say they weren't that close and never really knew those guys. We will all know the truth though. Just wait.

Bill Mastro was king and people were his buddy and photo op every time they had a chance and to speak out was to risk something. Now what happened? You can speak out about him freely because the defenders and buddies won't bother you about it anymore because they jumped off like rats on a burning ship.

Poor, poor Travis....

You mean like when your friends over at ANL post anonymous, cowardly and disgusting lies about Mr. Zipper and myself every time we criticize your friend Todd Mueller, Travis.

I've never read any nasty and disgusting lies posted about you, Travis, because of your views and opinions.

By the way, Travis, are any of your friends over at ANL also members of your new autograph site?

[travrosty]

you know its so ridiculous that if these marciano's had been exposed with coaches corner or ace certs that these same characters would run a 50 page thread on them. but because it's there buddies they like to criticize everyone BUT the people responsible for issuing third party certs for these autographs, that is PSA AND JSA.

Let's put the blame where it lies. We have no problem bashing ACE over the head, let's give it to psa and jsa when they deserve it too!

psa, jsa, ace, just all the same group of authenticators who don't know good boxing autographs from bad.

[slidekellyslide]

you know its so ridiculous that if these marciano's had been exposed with coaches corner or ace certs that these same characters would run a 50 page thread on them. but because it's there buddies they like to criticize everyone BUT the people responsible for issuing third party certs for these autographs, that is PSA AND JSA.

Let's put the blame where it lies. We have no problem bashing ACE over the head, let's give it to psa and jsa when they deserve it too!

psa, jsa, ace, just all the same group of authenticators who don't know good boxing autographs from bad.

Perhaps you've not been paying attention, but PSA and JSA take a pretty good bashing here too, much more I would say than the obvious suspects like STAT, ACE and Morales. They also happen to have more people in their corner than the obvious suspects because they actually do get it right more often than not.

[shelly]

Dan, the other compaines that you named are known to bad. If what you are saying is true then psa and jsa both fall in with them.:confused:

[slidekellyslide]

Dan, the other compaines that you named are known to bad.:confused:. If what you are saying is true then psa and jsa both fall in with them.

Well, I've never felt like JSA and PSA are trying to deceive...do they get it wrong sometimes? Yes. The others mentioned pretty much never get it right and their motives for passing bad autographs are nefarious IMO.

[cubsfan-budman]

Well, I've never felt like JSA and PSA are trying to deceive...do they get it wrong sometimes? Yes. The others mentioned pretty much never get it right and their motives for passing bad autographs are nefarious IMO.

What do you call it when the "willfully" ignore evidence that they have incorrect exemplars? Or when they're proven wrong but won't admit it?

[shelly]

People who drink a fifth or take the fifth not sure.

[slidekellyslide]

What do you call it when the "willfully" ignore evidence that they have incorrect exemplars? Or when they're proven wrong but won't admit it?

Mistakes are expensive and they don't like to admit them and that's wrong. I'm not in the corner of PSA or JSA, but I also don't equate them with the rest of the alphabet soup.