Spalding Ford Frick Ball - Not What It Seems

[vintagebrett]

I wanted to bring attention to an item on eBay that may be a possible fake. I just saw the item this morning and it ends today so I apologize for the quick notice.

The item in question is Spalding National League Ford Frick ball with multi colored seams - http://www.ebay.com/itm/290923716641?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Back on October 28th, 2012 I sold a Spalding Ford Frick baseball with all red seams. If you compare the pictures below, you will find that the scuff marks and dirt on the ball I sold (then with red seams) match perfectly with the ball in question (now with the multi colored stitch seams). To make matters worse, the person that purchased this ball is a board member. Since you cannot view the item in question on eBay because enough time has elapsed, I have enclosed screen shots of the auction from my October eBay invoice - the invoice listing doesn't fit on one screen so there are a few shots. The accounts used to purchase this baseball and the one to sell it are different, however, if you look at name history of the seller (pastimecollectibles), the first name he used is the name of the person on the paypal account that purchased the baseball. To me, this practice is very disturbing and thought the board would be best served to see for themselves. I did email Leon ahead of time to give him a heads up and he was fine with me posting as long as I printed facts and signed my name.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/vintagebrett/IMG_0808-1_zpsd18fb7bb.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/vintagebrett/media/IMG_0808-1_zpsd18fb7bb.jpg.html)http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/vintagebrett/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21614PM_zps6a117f86.png (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/vintagebrett/media/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21614PM_zps6a117f86.png.html)


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/vintagebrett/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21804PM_zpsc566940d.png (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/vintagebrett/media/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21804PM_zpsc566940d.png.html)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/vintagebrett/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21823PM_zps8d60323b.png (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/vintagebrett/media/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21823PM_zps8d60323b.png.html)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/vintagebrett/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21844PM_zps3edf3a5b.png (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/vintagebrett/media/ScreenShot2013-06-05at21844PM_zps3edf3a5b.png.html)

[BrandonG]

Wow, yes I bought that a while back and sold it with a few other poor quality baseballs to a very close FRIEND of mine. I will contact them immediately and take care of this bs!

[Leon]

I hope it all gets worked out. Same rules for me and everyone on the board...and everyone knows the rules. Put your name by it and say pretty much what you want to.....

[perezfan]

Definitely the same ball... very sleazy. Plus, the seller has all Private feedback (another red flag).

I am curious as to how they execute this procedure. Do they just treat every other stitch with some chemical, to dis-color it? Or is it completely re-stitched?

Seems like it would be very cumbersome and time-consuming either way (and hardly worth the approximate $300 profit). Especially given the risk of getting caught.

Despicable practice, either way... I guess fraud in our hobby isn't limited to forged autographs, trimmed cards and Ad Signs from Ohio!

M a r l< S t e l n b e r g

[Mr. Mitt]

Still trying to understand this. Got that Brandon bought the ball in October, but who sold the ball today? Brandon or the "friend"? If the "friend" sold it today, who is it (for future reference)? If Brandon sold it today, that means he sold it to his "friend", along with other balls, and then somehow reacquired it in order to sell it today for a significant profit. Either way, alterations were not caught nor disclosed by any party.

Jerry F!cch!

[khkco4bls]

I collect memorabilia, baseballs , early bats gloves etc. This makes me sick...I am one step out the door from collecting if this is where we are heading. Anyone buying...

[horzverti]

Thanks for the post Brett. I can imagine your surprise when you realized that it was the exact same ball you sold.

All I can say is WOW, YUCK and YIKES!

Brandon, I hope that one didn't make the book. Did your friend get back to you yet?

[Mr. Mitt]

19th century, Kevin, write me!

[BrandonG]

I could not get a hold of the seller, they are not calling me back, I think they're starting to realize the significance of the situation, especially with it involving my name. However, I knew the buyer and immediately called them (another member and friend) and told them to cancel the transaction and do not pay for the ball, which has happened now. So for now the ball will not be sold, and I will try to acquire it back to be destroyed. I will also be cutting ties with this individual. If anyone has any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me outside of the forum through my website.

[perezfan]

Good to hear Brandon... absolute right thing to do. Just curious as to how you know the buyer, if you cannot get the seller to call you back?

I'm also still eager to hear if they re-colored the alternating stitches, or just re-stitched the entire ball. Seems like a laborious procedure either way...

[prewarsports]

Crazy, If someone can execute this then I bet I am right when I have been saying for years that MOST of the 19th century Lemon Peel and Belt Style Balls that have surfaced over the last 5 years are fake too!

[horzverti]

I could not get a hold of the seller, they are not calling me back, I think they're starting to realize the significance of the situation, especially with it involving my name. However, I knew the buyer and immediately called them (another member and friend) and told them to cancel the transaction and do not pay for the ball, which has happened now. So for now the ball will not be sold, and I will try to acquire it back to be destroyed. I will also be cutting ties with this individual. If anyone has any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me outside of the forum through my website.

Unfortunately your name is associated with this mess. Good to hear that you are doing the right thing. Maybe take a few clear photos of this altered ball before destroying it...maybe use it in your book to note that this version of the Frick ball does not exist. Nah, just blow it up and post video of that. :D

Just curious, how did you find so quickly who the buyer was?? The auction ended only two hours ago.

[BrandonG]

Just curious, how did you find so quickly who the buyer was?? The auction ended only two hours ago.

I didn't know at first, then looked at the feedback score and it was a high and familiar score. The buyer is a friend who buys only vintage baseballs so when I called, first I just asked if it was him, and it was!

[Mr. Mitt]

When looking through prior eBay user names for “pastimecollectibles”, the seller of the ball in question, “brandongrun” was listed as a prior user id. Could you explain please?


Jerry F!cch!

[slidekellyslide]

Wow....just wow.

pastimecollectibles Feb-24-13 Present
antiquebaseballscom Jun-24-12 Feb-24-13
vintage-baseballs*com Mar-06-11 Jun-24-12
pastimebaseballs_com Mar-23-10 Mar-06-11
brandongrun May-25-07 Mar-23-10

[BrandonG]

Yes, like I said, a very close friend/business partner. I had a paypal chargeback years ago which made me unable to accept payments or buy stuff on eBay, I used his name and SSN on the paypal and have worked under that for about 7 years. hence the original connection. This ball was in my original possession and used for the book, then handed off to him, it should have never been made public or for sale, and that was an agreement. It was broken. I'm trying to do the right thing here.

[Shoeless Moe]

Pastime Baseballs.com

I started a thread in Nov 2010 about pastime baseballs selling fakes, and this seller is oddly enough Pastime Collectibles, from the same area.

No coincidence. They even used to have a website selling the Repro/fake balls, very hard to tell them apart.

I would bet this clown has been selling a lot of fakes w/various Ebay ID's over the years.

Brandon - its in your area......who is this clown and how do u know him?

[slidekellyslide]

Yes, like I said, a very close friend/business partner. I had a paypal chargeback years ago which made me unable to accept payments or buy stuff on eBay, I used his name and SSN on the paypal and have worked under that for about 7 years. hence the original connection. This ball was in my original possession and used for the book, then handed off to him, it should have never been made public or for sale, and that was an agreement. It was broken. I'm trying to do the right thing here.

Was it used in the book as a multi-color stitch ball or in its original condition? Who doctored that baseball?

[BrandonG]

I don't want to throw anyone under the bus as of yet, he is a good guy, sold repro's but nothing like this before, a one time thing. Please let me try to handle the situation.

[slidekellyslide]

I don't want to throw anyone under the bus as of yet, he is a good guy, sold repro's but nothing like this before, a one time thing. Please let me try to handle the situation.

How is the ball pictured in the book?

[Mr. Mitt]

This ball was in my original possession and used for the book, then handed off to him, it should have never been made public or for sale, and that was an agreement. It was broken.

So, who did the alteration? The "partner" who may have a history of doctoring balls or you, the ball authenticator?

Was this, or any other doctored balls, used in your book and does your publisher know this?

Seems the choice to be made is publlicly share the name of the fraud on this forum (you said you'd be cutting ties with him in a previous post) or risk people thinking (rightly or wrongly) that the seller is and has been you all along.

[vintagebrett]

I had a paypal chargeback years ago which made me unable to accept payments or buy stuff on eBay, I used his name and SSN on the paypal and have worked under that for about 7 years. .

I'm confused at this statement - if you are unable to have a PayPal account then why is your name on the PayPal receipt for the original purchase of this ball? Since you used his name and SSN, shouldn't his name be on the account?

[slidekellyslide]

I don't think the question gets any simpler than this: How is the ball used in the book?

[ngrow9]

Potentially a stupid question, but was there ever a period in which the NL used a red and tan laced ball?

[BrandonG]

Please don't confuse a "shipping" address to an owner of the paypal account name. The paypal account I use currently is not in my name, but has the Business title of History of the Baseball. Reason for this is my bad credit history with paypal as explained. Not changing these accounts or names was pure laziness on my part, and I am obviously paying for that now.

Now on to the use of this ball in the book. This ball is NOT used in the book. It was originally going to be used to replicate an extremely rare 1930's All-Star ball, a ball that I have not seen for sale, nor would have the funds to purchase if one surfaced, but I really wanted and needed it in the book. This ball was restitched by the replicator to be used strictly for photos, and that's it. However I acquired photographs of a genuine model months later, and no longer needed the replicated stitching.

It is not my place to release a name to a public forum, to people I do not know, I do not want any legal issues raised against me. I now see that it was a big mistake to have the ball switch hands after my use, my intentions in the memorabilia community have always been to out reproductions and fakes, which I do on a daily basis, including THIS particular ball, and help the industry with the knowledge I have gained over the years.

All baseballs in the book are genuine, however there are times where logos, color, etc need to be enhanced with photoshop, but it had never crossed my mind that this was a bad thing at all. The goal is to represent the best information possible, and if that involves making a yellow ball a little more white, or a logo a little more crisp, then I did so thinking people would rather see cleaner models so the ball is easily identifiable. If you disagree with this please let me know. Does anyone have opinions on that?

I have not made one dime from this book, I work full time and am doing this as a love for the game and it's artifacts, and to educate my fellow collectors. I would have no point to tarnish my reputation selling anything fraudulent, and would never do so for a cheap ball.

I apologize if some of you need more explanation than that, but I feel I have taken care of the matter, this ball will be back in my possession and destroyed. I just hope that some of you appreciate what I have done, and acknowledge the many hours I've committed to removing fraudulent memorabilia from eBay and other sites, including autographed baseballs.

And to Nathaniel, this type of ball was used for what I believe were all-star games in the 1930's, but not regular games.

[horzverti]

When looking through prior eBay user names for “pastimecollectibles”, the seller of the ball in question, “brandongrun” was listed as a prior user id. Could you explain please?


Say it isn't so Joe Brandon.

If this ball in its altered state is in your book, well then your book is...YIKES!

We really need the whole story here.

[khkco4bls]

Is someone sayin, I smell a rat..brandon this needs a full explaination and tell everyone who he is. And no he isn't a nice guy.

[Mr. Mitt]

To me, the story is flimsy and doesn’t eradicate the few facts that we actually have. It’s just my opinion, but I’m not buying it, at all. Until we are privy to the person behind the alteration and sale, one must conclude that it is Brandon given he originally bought the ball and the last person to sell the ball had an eBay id that used to match his name. It’s going to be extremely difficult to alter this conclusion. Simple, rational deduction all point to this. A complex, tangled web of an explanation just makes the case more unbelievable.


Jerry F!cch!

[yanks12025]

Wow. Pretty sad how quick some people will throw a good member of this forum under the bus. Brandon has helped tons of people with questions about baseballs and look how he gets treated.

[khkco4bls]

I would say he is out in front of the bus, not under it . Be careful...

[murphusa]

Some balls if you ask me :rolleyes:

[horzverti]

Wow. Pretty sad how quick some people will throw a good member of this forum under the bus. Brandon has helped tons of people with questions about baseballs and look how he gets treated.

The problem is that Brandon is the board expert on vintage baseballs. He is the one who is actually writing the book on the ball itself. Whenever anyone had a question on identification or authentication of a newly discovered ball we would wait until Brandon responded to the question. Brandon even was allowed access to the non-public archives at The Hall of Fame in Cooperstown to conduct his research. There is no doubt that he is an expert. Count me as one more member who is thankful for the questions I had which were answered by Brandon...however...

...I had an overwhelming feeling of 'oh no' as I read every new post in this thread. This just does not pass the smell test. I am disappointed.

[slidekellyslide]

I admitted that I made a mistake in selling some reproduction cabinet photos I made (which I clearly marked as reproduction on them) only to have those people turn around and try to pass them off as real after they scratched off the repro markings I put on them. I'm willing to take his word for it that the person that sold the item is not him...I think he should out this person though, there's not one single reason for him to take the heat on this when his friend is the one who tried passing off a fake.

[perezfan]

I agree that the culprit should definitely be outed. But in writing this, I realize it sounds like hoping that OJ finds the real killer.

Either way, I hope we get some definitive resolution to this troubling matter (to include the actual seller as well as the person who re-stitched that baseball).

[vintagebrett]

Now on to the use of this ball in the book. This ball is NOT used in the book. It was originally going to be used to replicate an extremely rare 1930's All-Star ball, a ball that I have not seen for sale, nor would have the funds to purchase if one surfaced, but I really wanted and needed it in the book. This ball was restitched by the replicator to be used strictly for photos, and that's it. However I acquired photographs of a genuine model months later, and no longer needed the replicated stitching.



Just out of curiosity - I imagine you search eBay so how did you miss seeing this rare baseball, one that you've never seen for sale before? It was listed in the vintage baseballs category and ran for 7 days. You admitted that you knew this faked ball existed. If I saw my friend selling something I knew was fake I would have done something about it right away.

[Shoeless Moe]

I don't want to throw anyone under the bus as of yet, he is a good guy, sold repro's but nothing like this before, a one time thing. Please let me try to handle the situation.

He's a good guy? He sold this fake, I'm fairly certain he's sold other fakes as I remember that ID before and even started a thread on the joker years back. He hides feedback, for what reason? I believe we know. He took a ball from you and re-sold it knowing what it was, yet completely lied in his listing. He pretty far from a good guy.

[horzverti]

Just out of curiosity - I imagine you search eBay so how did you miss seeing this rare baseball, one that you've never seen for sale before? It was listed in the vintage baseballs category and ran for 7 days. You admitted that you knew this faked ball existed. If I saw my friend selling something I knew was fake I would have done something about it right away.

Brandon? Thoughts on Brett's post above?

I have some more questions:

The eBay name of the seller of sham ball was originally your name, yet you claim that the seller is merely a friend/partner of your's? Why would he use your name at all? If you had a Paypal problem, why not just create a new ID for yourself? There isn't a high feedback # for the sham seller...nothing to lose there.

Why would you, the guy who is writing the book on balls, associate with a known seller of repros? You wrote that you sold the ball to him, but asked him not to re-sell it? You know he sells repros, why would he hold onto a ball that was not legit? It isn't a collectible. Of course he was going to try to sell it. Is he, you?? If not, then who is it?

Why did you not stop the eBay sale? You are the ball guy, you must have seen it out on eBay.

Why did you join the conversation only after Brett's original post?

Yep, the private feedback thing is another flag.

The big problem here isn't merely another shady seller on eBay. The problem is that this sham seller may be the guy who is writing a book on baseballs. I now quote myself, "YIKES"!

[BrandonG]

I'm not sure anything I can say right now will remedy your views at this point. I tried in a previous post to explain everything, including my relationship to the seller. The ball wasn't sold. I noticed just a little too late to have the auction stopped by contacting the seller, I don't live and die on eBay. The buyer ended up being a friend, and I immediately called them and told them to cancel the sale and don't pay for it. They are a member and can confirm that, I will not give that name either though. So just to be clear, the ball was NOT sold.

I cannot give a name as I still have very close personal and financial ties as explained earlier, including website fees and registration for work I've done in the past when I was a full time designer, and I cannot lose that stuff. This person is not a board member, and barely sells anything on ebay anymore, yes they sold repros, but ALWAYS listed as such. Because of our ties with paypal and such, he kept the ebay name to retain the feedback count, and as you can see I started a new one. I'm not sure what good that would do for me especially because those who don't trust me, aren't going to have their minds changed.

I made a $20.50 mistake here, trusted the wrong people, and now I'm being compared to the likes of OJ. I get the concern, but I don't understand the logic of a guy like me, with so much invested in accuracy and credibility purposefully defrauding someone for peanuts, a month before releasing my guides. So if you want to blame me, blame me, but I cannot keep defending every post.

It has come to a conclusion that this is a witch hunt, and it seems I will be taking the full brunt of the blame here regardless, and maybe rightfully so as it was poor judgment on my part not holding on to the ball originally. I never specifically said don't sell the ball, but just assumed they would know better. Again, a poor lapse in judgment on my part. But what comes next here? I don't release the book, I don't help out anymore, over this? The assumption was guilt from the get go, I'm losing a friend, I'm losing credibility...This is a no win for me any way this goes. I don't see what else can come from this, people are selling trimmed cards for hundreds of thousands, and fake Ruth's for thousands, and this is the topic that ruins my credibility? Having a friend who's an idiot?

To those of you that know me, or have taken my advice on baseballs, I sincerely apologize if you feel different about me because of this situation, but my hopes would be that this gets put behind me. This has made me angry and physically sick, and don't know what else to say. This will be my last post regarding this, and I will not be looking at the thread any longer. you can PM me if you would like to talk.

[Shoeless Moe]

I didn't know at first, then looked at the feedback score and it was a high and familiar score. The buyer is a friend who buys only vintage baseballs so when I called, first I just asked if it was him, and it was!

This too......"High & Familiar Feedback score"......if u look at his bidding history he only has bought 1 vintage baseball in the past 30 days.....and I went thru all winning bidders for the last 90 days of vintage balls and I do not see that feedback score anywhere. How can you recognize a feedback score from a guy who is not buying??? I could see if the buyer was TGOS who buys several balls monthly, but this buyer bought 1 ball, this one, in the last 30 days. I believe u also said the buyer was a member of the board, so I'm hoping he chimes in. He can make a copy of the order details, showing the seller and that then would clear your name. Could even block out the sellers last name so no harm no foul. I'm for you Brandon, but the possession arrow is pointing the wrong way, until proven otherwise.

[Shoeless Moe]

I didn't know at first, then looked at the feedback score and it was a high and familiar score. The buyer is a friend who buys only vintage baseballs so when I called, first I just asked if it was him, and it was!

"Only buys vintage baseballs".........he doesn't "only" buy vintage baseballs......."gulp":

[Mr. Mitt]

This person is not a board member, and barely sells anything on ebay anymore, yes they sold repros, but ALWAYS listed as such.

What’s perplexing to me (no, not what’s been uncovered, that’s pretty much open and shut) is the back and forth with singular and plural uses of pronouns describing this “friend”. The above quote is from his last post, but it’s also being done in his very first post when he says he will contact “them”. Poor grammar, possible, but I’m beginning to suspect there is much, much more to this story that what we have here.

Jerry F!cch!

[Mr. Mitt]

Wow, yes I bought that a while back and sold it with a few other poor quality baseballs to a very close FRIEND of mine. I will contact them immediately and take care of this bs!

Here it is, from the beginning.

[slidekellyslide]

"Only buys vintage baseballs".........he doesn't "only" buy vintage baseballs......."gulp":

Looks like this baseball buyer also buys lots of aviation stuff...Brandon is a pilot. This is probably just another coincidence. :rolleyes:

[Shoeless Moe]

Brandon has just been spotted on the I405 Freeway in a White Bronco with his "friend".


sorry had to.

[slidekellyslide]

Brandon, I know you said you were done with this thread, but I see you logged in and looking at this thread so why not out this guy? It's only getting worse for you and this "friend' who threw YOU under the bus is skating away. What's more important? Your reputation or this business partnership with a scoundrel?

[horzverti]

Looks like this baseball buyer also buys lots of aviation stuff...Brandon is a pilot. This is probably just another coincidence. :rolleyes:

Wow...just wow. All this unfolds as he is trying to sell more advertising space in the book and only seven weeks before the National (the date near which he wanted his books in the hands of the suckers collectors).

I was long looking forward to buying his book when it was finally finished. Again, I write that I am disappointed. :confused:

Given Brandon's huge loss of credibility, who is going to step up and write a book on the ball in which we can trust?

[yanks12025]

Well I know things look bad but I'm gonna stand by Brandon's side. I think someone with his knowledge, if he was going to rip people off don't you think he'd pick a more pricey baseball?

But for the rest of you, I have pitchforks for sale.

[witster]

This has now become amusing. I have a single prior post on this forum.....regarding Brandon's book a while ago. It seems that there are some here who have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express expressing opinions about what they think they know. It does confirm to me, that this is a place for cock measuring between imbeciles.

Time to set these MFers straight.

I am Sawit (Wit) Raymond. I won the auction in question. Shortly after the auction ended, Brandon called and asked if it was in fact me, who won the auction. After confirming his suspicions, he told me not to purchase the ball. Brandon is someone whom I consider a friend. We have gone head to head on many balls in the past. Sometimes I win. Sometimes, he does. Sometimes, it rains. He has confirmed the authenticity of parts of my collection. He has been to my home and taken photos of my collection for his book.

I buy many items on eBay. I'm an Air Force brat, particular to the Republic F-105 Thunderchief. I buy many items related to that. Search Lou Drendel, aviation art. I have two paintings reserved. Look on his web page and you'll see my history of commissions on that page. I am even mentioned in an ebook of his.

I tend to believe where there is smoke, there is fire. I've told Brandon to save his rep also.

I have watched this thread go and go. But, then, I see some asshole pull up my bid history and have others speculate about my buying habits. If there is nothing to buy to enhance my collection, I don't buy. Period. I also have that passion for aviation. I follow that, too. You want to know about my Kayden Kross Collection also?

In short, Brandon saved me from a headache and heartache about this ball. With hindsight, I think some things should have been done differently by him and his past organization of things.

Finally, Brandon and I are not in cahoots. Never have been. I suggest you pull your collective heads out of your asses and begin to know what the fu** you are talking about, before speculating regarding my purchases.

Sawit (Wit) Raymond is out.

[horzverti]

This has now become amusing. I have a single prior post on this forum.....regarding Brandon's book a while ago. It seems that there are some here who have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express expressing opinions about what they think they know. It does confirm to me, that this is a place for cock measuring between imbeciles.

Time to set these MFers straight.

I am Sawit (Wit) Raymond. I won the auction in question. Shortly after the auction ended, Brandon called and asked if it was in fact me, who won the auction. After confirming his suspicions, he told me not to purchase the ball. Brandon is someone whom I consider a friend. We have gone head to head on many balls in the past. Sometimes I win. Sometimes, he does. Sometimes, it rains. He has confirmed the authenticity of parts of my collection. He has been to my home and taken photos of my collection for his book.

I buy many items on eBay. I'm an Air Force brat, particular to the Republic F-105 Thunderchief. I buy many items related to that. Search Lou Drendel, aviation art. I have two paintings reserved. Look on his web page and you'll see my history of commissions on that page. I am even mentioned in an ebook of his.

I tend to believe where there is smoke, there is fire. I've told Brandon to save his rep also.

I have watched this thread go and go. But, then, I see some asshole pull up my bid history and have others speculate about my buying habits. If there is nothing to buy to enhance my collection, I don't buy. Period. I also have that passion for aviation. I follow that, too. You want to know about my Kayden Kross Collection also?

In short, Brandon saved me from a headache and heartache about this ball. With hindsight, I think some things should have been done differently by him and his past organization of things.

Finally, Brandon and I are not in cahoots. Never have been. I suggest you pull your collective heads out of your asses and begin to know what the fuck you are talking about, before speculating regarding my purchases.

Sawit (Wit) Raymond is out.

Funny that Brandon didn't bid on this ball. He is the expert and this sham ball is "rare", right? Oh wait, I forgot, he was the seller of this ball.

Thanks for stepping up Wit, but the issue here isn't with the buyer.

[slidekellyslide]

This has now become amusing. I have a single prior post on this forum.....regarding Brandon's book a while ago. It seems that there are some here who have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express expressing opinions about what they think they know. It does confirm to me, that this is a place for cock measuring between imbeciles.

Time to set these MFers straight.

I am Sawit (Wit) Raymond. I won the auction in question. Shortly after the auction ended, Brandon called and asked if it was in fact me, who won the auction. After confirming his suspicions, he told me not to purchase the ball. Brandon is someone whom I consider a friend. We have gone head to head on many balls in the past. Sometimes I win. Sometimes, he does. Sometimes, it rains. He has confirmed the authenticity of parts of my collection. He has been to my home and taken photos of my collection for his book.

I buy many items on eBay. I'm an Air Force brat, particular to the Republic F-105 Thunderchief. I buy many items related to that. Search Lou Drendel, aviation art. I have two paintings reserved. Look on his web page and you'll see my history of commissions on that page. I am even mentioned in an ebook of his.

I tend to believe where there is smoke, there is fire. I've told Brandon to save his rep also.

I have watched this thread go and go. But, then, I see some asshole pull up my bid history and have others speculate about my buying habits. If there is nothing to buy to enhance my collection, I don't buy. Period. I also have that passion for aviation. I follow that, too. You want to know about my Kayden Kross Collection also?

In short, Brandon saved me from a headache and heartache about this ball. With hindsight, I think some things should have been done differently by him and his past organization of things.

Finally, Brandon and I are not in cahoots. Never have been. I suggest you pull your collective heads out of your asses and begin to know what the fuck you are talking about, before speculating regarding my purchases.

Sawit (Wit) Raymond is out.

Thanks for clearing a few things up...you could clear something else up by telling us the name of the seller, this would really help your buddy Brandon out and he wouldn't have to be the one to throw his "friend" under the bus.

[thecatspajamas]

Funny that Brandon didn't bid on this ball. He is the expert and this sham ball is "rare", right? Oh wait, I forgot, he was the seller of this ball.

Thanks for stepping up Wit, but the issue here isn't with the buyer.

Curt, check the bid history again. Brandon DID bid on the ball, and was the underbidder. As he said, he put in a healthy bid in an attempt to keep anyone else from being stuck with the ball. As of midnight the night before, he was $100 over the next highest bidder, and remained the high bidder until Wit beat him out with a snipe that went off 3 seconds before the auction ended. All of that can be seen just looking at the bid history.

Now why in the world would someone wanting to sell a fake ball bid on his own ball in that way? And before anyone suggests it, this is clearly not shill bidding. Nobody in their right mind attempts to run up the bid price by throwing down a bid that would triple the highest bid showing at that point. There were no bid retractions, no nibbling at the bids to drive the price up, really no reason to think that it was anything other than what Brandon says: an attempt to keep an unthinking friend/ex-partner from committing fraud upon an unsuspecting buyer.

And keep in mind that this single bid, which seemed to safely be holding as the high bid right up until the end, was placed nearly 14 hours before post #1 in this thread. So it's not a case of "the heat is on, I better pull this before I get caught."

Also, Brett asked why he didn't catch the ball the first time it was listed. Go back and check that listing (item # 290923317483), and you will see that it was up for less than 24 hours before the seller ended it early (listed as a Buy It Now on May 28 at 13:11 and ended early May 29 at 11:48, then re-listed 4 minutes later at Auction at 11:52). I don't know what Brett's habits are when it comes to searching eBay, but even for the categories that I scour diligently, there are plenty of times that I am distracted for a day or more and items slip by me. I don't find it so implausible that an item that was up for less than 24 hours might escape anyone's notice.

I say all this based just on the evidence visible in the listing and bid history on eBay, which anyone can check. It's not supposition based on whether the pronoun he used was singular or plural or any other grammar Brandon used. Keep in mind that he was under a great deal of pressure at the time, and responding as quickly as possible. His grammar has never been perfect, (better than some who post here, but still not perfect, sorry Brandon :o ), and it's not likely that he would stop and use grammar check before hitting "submit."

Aside from that, I can say from personal experience that I have had numerous dealings with Brandon over the last year or so, and there have been many many times where he could have easily taken advantage of me for many times the amount of money involved in this transaction. In all of my dealings with him, I have never gotten any sense of anything underhanded going on with him, and he has never failed to provide help or information when called upon.

And it's not just me, or even a select few, that he has helped. He has provided help and advice regarding ball identification and dating here on the boards numerous times, to anyone who asked, and does so in a definitive manner, showing examples and giving detailed responses where appropriate so that you don't have to just "take his word for it as the expert." You can actually go and do your own independent research and arrive at the same assessments that he presents. It's just that most of us (often myself included) are too lazy to put in the hours of research necessary to develop our own expertise. It's much easier to just yell, "Hey Brandon," get a free quick opinion, maybe throw him a "thanks" and then move on.

I don't have a problem with people asking questions about anything, and this transaction certainly deserved the red flag originally raised. The rate at which it went from simply asking a question to completely trashing a valued board member, his reputation, his expertise, and his book (which hasn't even come out yet!), all the while rejecting all attempts to answer the rapid-fire questions being leveled at him and completely ignoring his request to be allowed time to personally deal with the fiasco his friend created, is nothing short of shameful. Bottom line is, I daresay we all have had friends who did something stupid at some point without thinking how it would affect us. That in this case, that the friend is also an ex-business partner, and that neither of them thought to cancel all the old eBay and Paypal accounts and start fresh with their separate ventures, is especially unfortunate as it gives rise to this kind of speculation. Having stupid friends isn't criminal though. It's hard enough to keep intelligent friends in line. Idiots are impossible, and I'm not going to kick a guy in the nuts because his (now ex-)friend proved to be a dishonest moron. :eek:

Lance F!ttro

[perezfan]

Thanks for clearing a few things up...you could clear something else up by telling us the name of the seller, this would really help your buddy Brandon out and he wouldn't have to be the one to throw his "friend" under the bus.

Agree with Dan, that proof of seller should be disclosed. Also want to add the the foul language does not lend itself to the credibility (even if all stated is true).

[Shoeless Moe]

Another question for Brandon, his ebay account Historyofthebaseball was set up in the fall of 2012, surely he that wasn't his 1st ebay account, he's been buying vintage balls for years, so what is the account you had prior to HOTBB?

And until dim-WIT produces a receipt, and please don't doctor it (your specialty, oh wait no, that's balls, wait, I'm confused who am I talking about here Wit, B, or mystery friend, I don't know starting to get confused.)

And with 3 friends involved here, buyer seller reseller, seems like there could have been a good chance these may have been shill bids. If B knows the seller why does he need to place a bid.....and $300 isn't very large for a guy who has paid thousands for balls on ebay. Why doesn't he tell him to take it down, no he places a bid on the ball?????? Why not out him here and let everyone know in advance not to bid.

[Mr. Mitt]

Pastime Baseballs.com

I started a thread in Nov 2010 about pastime baseballs selling fakes, and this seller is oddly enough Pastime Collectibles, from the same area.

No coincidence. They even used to have a website selling the Repro/fake balls, very hard to tell them apart.

I would bet this clown has been selling a lot of fakes w/various Ebay ID's over the years.

Brandon - its in your area......who is this clown and how do u know him?


One of the prior eBay id's of the seller in question was pastimebaseballs_com. Before that, the eBay id was brandongrun. You can clearly see this in Dan's earlier post. Now, take a look at the threads Paul references in his post above. Here are links;

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=129675&highlight=Pastimebaseballs.com

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=131028&highlight=Pastimebaseballs.com


Jerry F!cch!

[Shoeless Moe]

I mean what are the odds of being outbid on a ball u owned but was given to a friend after it was doctored, then bidding on it, then losing to another friend, with all the other collectors in the country out there, and then the bidder who won is willing to insult and swear to defend the underbidder/previous owner/doctorer of the ball.

[Shoeless Moe]

And our 2 time poster Wit also placed the 1st bid in that auction, along with the winning one, ya know to get the bidding going.......yah uhhhh huh.

[horzverti]

Curt, check the bid history again. Brandon DID bid on the ball, and was the underbidder. As he said, he put in a healthy bid in an attempt to keep anyone else from being stuck with the ball. As of midnight the night before, he was $100 over the next highest bidder, and remained the high bidder until Wit beat him out with a snipe that went off 3 seconds before the auction ended. All of that can be seen just looking at the bid history.

Now why in the world would someone wanting to sell a fake ball bid on his own ball in that way? And before anyone suggests it, this is clearly not shill bidding. Nobody in their right mind attempts to run up the bid price by throwing down a bid that would triple the highest bid showing at that point. There were no bid retractions, no nibbling at the bids to drive the price up, really no reason to think that it was anything other than what Brandon says: an attempt to keep an unthinking friend/ex-partner from committing fraud upon an unsuspecting buyer.

And keep in mind that this single bid, which seemed to safely be holding as the high bid right up until the end, was placed nearly 14 hours before post #1 in this thread. So it's not a case of "the heat is on, I better pull this before I get caught."

Also, Brett asked why he didn't catch the ball the first time it was listed. Go back and check that listing (item # 290923317483), and you will see that it was up for less than 24 hours before the seller ended it early (listed as a Buy It Now on May 28 at 13:11 and ended early May 29 at 11:48, then re-listed 4 minutes later at Auction at 11:52). I don't know what Brett's habits are when it comes to searching eBay, but even for the categories that I scour diligently, there are plenty of times that I am distracted for a day or more and items slip by me. I don't find it so implausible that an item that was up for less than 24 hours might escape anyone's notice.

I say all this based just on the evidence visible in the listing and bid history on eBay, which anyone can check. It's not supposition based on whether the pronoun he used was singular or plural or any other grammar Brandon used. Keep in mind that he was under a great deal of pressure at the time, and responding as quickly as possible. His grammar has never been perfect, (better than some who post here, but still not perfect, sorry Brandon :o ), and it's not likely that he would stop and use grammar check before hitting "submit."

Aside from that, I can say from personal experience that I have had numerous dealings with Brandon over the last year or so, and there have been many many times where he could have easily taken advantage of me for many times the amount of money involved in this transaction. In all of my dealings with him, I have never gotten any sense of anything underhanded going on with him, and he has never failed to provide help or information when called upon.

And it's not just me, or even a select few, that he has helped. He has provided help and advice regarding ball identification and dating here on the boards numerous times, to anyone who asked, and does so in a definitive manner, showing examples and giving detailed responses where appropriate so that you don't have to just "take his word for it as the expert." You can actually go and do your own independent research and arrive at the same assessments that he presents. It's just that most of us (often myself included) are too lazy to put in the hours of research necessary to develop our own expertise. It's much easier to just yell, "Hey Brandon," get a free quick opinion, maybe throw him a "thanks" and then move on.

I don't have a problem with people asking questions about anything, and this transaction certainly deserved the red flag originally raised. The rate at which it went from simply asking a question to completely trashing a valued board member, his reputation, his expertise, and his book (which hasn't even come out yet!), all the while rejecting all attempts to answer the rapid-fire questions being leveled at him and completely ignoring his request to be allowed time to personally deal with the fiasco his friend created, is nothing short of shameful. Bottom line is, I daresay we all have had friends who did something stupid at some point without thinking how it would affect us. That in this case, that the friend is also an ex-business partner, and that neither of them thought to cancel all the old eBay and Paypal accounts and start fresh with their separate ventures, is especially unfortunate as it gives rise to this kind of speculation. Having stupid friends isn't criminal though. It's hard enough to keep intelligent friends in line. Idiots are impossible, and I'm not going to kick a guy in the nuts because his (now ex-)friend proved to be a dishonest moron. :eek:

Lance F!ttro

Where did Brandon write that he bid on the ball?

[perezfan]

One of the prior eBay id's of the seller in question was pastimebaseballs_com. Before that, the eBay id was brandongrun. You can clearly see this in Dan's earlier post. Now, take a look at the threads Paul references in his post above. Here are links;

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=129675&highlight=Pastimebaseballs.com

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=131028&highlight=Pastimebaseballs.com


Jerry F!cch!

This speaks volumes... Wow :eek:

[thecatspajamas]

Where did Brandon write that he bid on the ball?

My apologies, Curt, I misspoke when I wrote "As he said." I figured that out early on after seeing the original post from looking the bid history and a quick check of the buyers I knew had an interest in high-end balls. Reading back over what Brandon wrote, I see that he never specifically stated that he had bid on the ball. You can just mentally cross out "as he said" in my post above.

[Shoeless Moe]

Curt, check the bid history again. Brandon DID bid on the ball, and was the underbidder. As he said, he put in a healthy bid in an attempt to keep anyone else from being stuck with the ball.

Lance F!ttro

So he never said this on here, so u obviously talked to him privately, sounds like just a cover story for shill bidding, I could be wrong though, but sure sounds like it. 2 friends who know each placing bids on yet a 3rd friends baseball. No that couldn't be fishy.

[thecatspajamas]

So he never said this on here, so u obviously talked to him privately, sounds like just a cover story for shill bidding, I could be wrong though, but sure sounds like it. 2 friends who know each placing bids on yet a 3rd friends baseball. No that couldn't be fishy.

Paul, please read my post above again. Everything I said regarding the bidding can be found in the bid history if you don't allow your paranoia to taint what you can see there.

[Shoeless Moe]

Paul, please read my post above again. Everything I said regarding the bidding can be found in the bid history if you don't allow your paranoia to taint what you can see there.

No, it can not be found in the bid history, where in there does it say this:

"he put in a healthy bid in an attempt to keep anyone else from being stuck with the ball."

U said that, that's not in the bid history, in the bid history are 2 friends bidding on a 3rd friends ball.

[thecatspajamas]

In the bid history are 2 friends bidding on a 3rd friends ball.

Can you kindly explain how the scenario you are presenting benefits any of the 3 friends you are supposing are running up the bids on each other? I'm really not understanding how that makes any sense. (no sarcasm to be read there - I really don't understand that scenario)

[earlywynnfan]

Can you kindly explain how the scenario you are presenting benefits any of the 3 friends you are supposing are running up the bids on each other? I'm really not understanding how that makes any sense. (no sarcasm to be read there - I really don't understand that scenario)

Agreed! It all appears to be a big plot to... get higher fees for ebay!

[earlywynnfan]

And our 2 time poster Wit also placed the 1st bid in that auction, along with the winning one, ya know to get the bidding going.......yah uhhhh huh.

Absolutely!! Who in their right mind would place a low bid on an item early, not only to watch the item, but to make sure the seller knows somebody is interested, only to go back at the very end and put their REAL bid in? You know, like sniping??

Seriously Paul? You've never done this? What's with the witch hunt??

Ken

[witster]

Perez, if my vernacular offends, this isn't church or Sunday school. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, ignore it. It doesn't disprove any of what I say.

Clueless Moe, I have met Brandon twice. I wanted to help with the book and perhaps to show off. As already I own two red/beige Frick balls and know their scarity, I wanted this one also. I consider him a friend, as I previously stated.

I've never met the seller. To suggest that I'm some part of a Holy Trinity of Baseball doctoring is laughable. You are using coincidence as evidence in your claims. Produce evidence, or STFU. You are lobbing grenades where they don't need to go. So, loosen the foil hat up a bit.

It's interesting to see the following quoted:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=129675&highlight=Pastimebaseballs.com

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=131028&highlight=Pastimebaseballs.com


Jerry F!cch![/QUOTE]

as I started a thread on Big League Baseballs long ago about this subject

http://forum.bigleaguebaseballs.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146


I don't have to produce a damn thing. I attempted to buy a baseball. Brandon had a guess that it was me who won the ball. He was correct. Brandon has his stance about protecting whomever this guy is. Why, I don't know. I told him my thoughts and its his name on the coals. It's not my job to protect Brandon. He's a big boy. He has this project going on and doesn't need the negative connections.

Witster

[vintagebrett]

I'm not seeking witches, just the truth. eBay bidding aside, I'd like you all to take a second to visit http://archive.org - if you've never been there, it's a great resource for many different things, including viewing old webpages.

On the first page type in the web address pastimebaseballs.com

You will see that it has crawled the site 6 times. If you view one of the views from 2010 or 2011 you will see the list of baseballs, etc they reproduce, etc.

Click on the 2013 portion of the timeline and it brings you up to date with what the site has been changed to - interesting.

[Shoeless Moe]

Can you kindly explain how the scenario you are presenting benefits any of the 3 friends you are supposing are running up the bids on each other? I'm really not understanding how that makes any sense. (no sarcasm to be read there - I really don't understand that scenario)

Easy.....u put a ball on ebay, u have someone u know place a bid to get the bidding going......u kinda have an idea what the ball will go for, next friend places a bid as well, so u have 2 separate IDs bidding to make it look like people are actually bidding on the item, however no one else is still bidding, and u want to sell the ball for a certain price, u place another bid at the end in hopes someone else who is not in on the scam also bids, if they do, u sold the ball for $400 rather than $100, cuz the middle bids are all dummy bids. If one of the friends wins the ball, no loss u can just cancel the transaction, like was done here. The transaction was conveniently cancelled.

[Shoeless Moe]

Absolutely!! Who in their right mind would place a low bid on an item early, not only to watch the item, but to make sure the seller knows somebody is interested, only to go back at the very end and put their REAL bid in? You know, like sniping??

Seriously Paul? You've never done this? What's with the witch hunt??

Ken

That could very well have happened as well, possible, but what are the odds of with all the vintage ball collectors out there, the seller, the winner and the underbidder(who "sold" the ball to the seller) all know each other? When was the last time u saw that happen?

[Shoeless Moe]

I don't have to produce a damn thing. I attempted to buy a baseball. Brandon had a guess that it was me who won the ball. He was correct. Brandon has his stance about protecting whomever this guy is. Why, I don't know. I told him my thoughts and its his name on the coals. It's not my job to protect Brandon. He's a big boy. He has this project going on and doesn't need the negative connections.

Witster

You don't "have" to produce a damn thing, but if u did it would shut all the non-believers up. So u can continue to make it look shady or u could put an end to it.

[deebro041]

u want to sell the ball for a certain price, u place another bid at the end in hopes someone else who is not in on the scam also bids, if they do, u sold the ball for $400 rather than $100, .

I HOPE I win the lottery!!

[gnaz01]

Good LORD!!! All this over a $300 ball??? I would hope that everyone has better things to do :confused:

[slidekellyslide]

Good LORD!!! All this over a $300 ball??? I would hope that everyone has better things to do :confused:

The price of the ball has ZERO to do with this situation IMO....this is the expert in the field, the go to guy for antique baseballs involved in some way with a seller of fake baseballs. What that relationship is is apparently going to be up for debate because Brandon refuses to out the scam artist.

[Leon]

Here is an outsiders opinion. First of all, please watch the F bombs, they and other x rated words will be edited out. As long as your name is by your post please say whatever you want to otherwise.

First of all I have a bit of hard time going all the way back for years and looking at things that happened then. For the most current situation I am going to stick to Brandon's side right now, from what I have read. I can't get around the fact a very respected board member, and someone who is always helping people and coming out with an important book, is going to throw it all away over a $300 ball. It would be analogous to me throwing away what credibility I have built over my time in the hobby on a $300 fake type card. I have cards I have probably paid that much tax on. If it came to my cred I would easily give anyone $500 to not tarnish it. I think Brandon would probably do the same thing. I can't explain every single bid from the last 2-3 yrs but I just fall on the side of Bandon at this point. Just my 2 cents.....

[gnaz01]

I can't get around the fact a very respected board member, and someone who is always helping people and coming out with an important book, is going to throw it all away over a $300 ball.

Eloquence aside, THIS is the point I was trying to derive at. Sorry Dan, didn't mean to imply otherwise, it has been a LOOOOOOONG work week for me :o

[vintagebrett]

I apologize for not being clearer in my earlier post but when you follow the steps below, you will find that it will point you to the historyofthebaseball website. For some reason, there is a direct correlation between the former pastimebaseballs.com website and the current historyofthebaseball website.

I'm not seeking witches, just the truth. eBay bidding aside, I'd like you all to take a second to visit http://archive.org - if you've never been there, it's a great resource for many different things, including viewing old webpages.

On the first page type in the web address pastimebaseballs.com

You will see that it has crawled the site 6 times. If you view one of the views from 2010 or 2011 you will see the list of baseballs, etc they reproduce, etc.

Click on the 2013 portion of the timeline and it brings you up to date with what the site has been changed to - interesting.

[earlywynnfan]

That could very well have happened as well, possible, but what are the odds of with all the vintage ball collectors out there, the seller, the winner and the underbidder(who "sold" the ball to the seller) all know each other? When was the last time u saw that happen?

I don't particularly think the amount of vintage ball collectors is all that huge.

I collect game used bats. I have bid on items from sellers I've known and lost out to collectors I've known quite often. Same with autographs.

[Leon]

I don't particularly think the amount of vintage ball collectors is all that huge.

I collect game used bats. I have bid on items from sellers I've known and lost out to collectors I've known quite often. Same with autographs.

More often than not I am competing with pretty good hobby friends on things I want. And many times if we were to look at the bidders of an item, I would probably know every single one of them,...even if there are 5+ different bidders. Just look on the card side. I went head to head in the last month with Wonka and Peter Ullmands on cards we all wanted. If someone were bidding against 3-4 guys that are good hobby friends I would find it very normal. I would almost think it abnormal if some of my friends weren't bidding on the same cards I was....And my guess is that the baseballs hobby is smaller than the card hobby.

[Shoeless Moe]

I don't particularly think the amount of vintage ball collectors is all that huge.

I collect game used bats. I have bid on items from sellers I've known and lost out to collectors I've known quite often. Same with autographs.

but....did u ever buy one, switch the name of the player on the bat, sell it to a friend, who then sells it as an original, then place a bid on it, then be outbid by another friend, then call the winning bidder, have them cancel the transaction with the seller who they have used as their account or paypal or something in the past, yet this "friend" who was over at your house, refuses to answer the phone, that you sold to him and bid on, so the winning bidder "who u have had battles with trying to win vintage baseballs" with gets contacted believes the underbidders story that its a fake all within 2 hours of the auction ending, rather than posting a comment on this board outing the fake, like we often do here to help out our fellow collectors into not getting duped, but making no mention of this auction, that oddly enough Brandon stumbled on, but doesn't try to get him to cancel the auction when he first noticed it, but after the sale is complete.

[earlywynnfan]

Nope, done none of that. Therefore, we should stop posting and march over to Brandon's house and shoot him.


Have you ever been in the middle of a situation where you looked bad but knew you had done nothing wrong? And it took time and effort to sort it all out? And people you thought were your friends turned on you? Isn't it possible that this is what's happening to Brandon??

I don't know what your day job is, but if there's ever an opening for judge, jury, and executioner, you should apply. Someone who sees things so clearly and appears to know everything would be great in that position.

Ken

Helpful Hint: if you do apply, on your resume, actually spell out the word "you." It makes people think you graduated High School.

[Shoeless Moe]

So if Wit won't produce the order details, can Brandon at least explain why he placed a bid on a ball he thought was fake a day b4 the auction ended, and if his thinking as was mentioned was so that no one else would win it, 1. why $300, that surely doesn't guarantee no one else wins it, place it at $1,000 since u know u are not going to pay it, then yes that way it makes it believeable. $400 "won" it. So $300 obviously wasn't an attempt to win it.

And 2. since your bid was placed the day b4 the auction ended, why do you not post a comment about a fake baseball out on Ebay. You are the expert, don't u like helping fellow collectors into not being duped. A comment would have ensured no one her would bid on it.

No comments until after it was outed.

If that can be explained I'll walk away and retract my doubts.

[Shoeless Moe]

I don't know what your day job is......

bounty hunter

[Mr. Mitt]

as I started a thread on Big League Baseballs long ago about this subject

http://forum.bigleaguebaseballs.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146

Witster


Thank you, Witser, I didn't know abut that thread on the other forum. Given that you were skeptical of pastimebaseballs.com then (both in your first post on the thread you began and again in your concluding post), aren't you the least bit curious as to this seller's connection to pastimebaseballs.com, who just happened to change their eBay user id from brandongrun? I am.


Jerry F!cch!

[Mr. Mitt]

Ok, I'm a little slow this morning. There are more pages to the thread Witster provided. I referenced the first and last post of his on the first page, only.

The second page includes a response from Brandon of pastimebaseballs.com. Look, obviously he is very knowledgable about the history of baseballs and should continue to share it. However, why hide personal history, even if it entailed producing replica baseballs that looked damned near original? Tell us the whole story and let's all move forward.

[whitehse]

Here is an outsiders opinion. First of all, please watch the F bombs, they and other x rated words will be edited out. As long as your name is by your post please say whatever you want to otherwise.

First of all I have a bit of hard time going all the way back for years and looking at things that happened then. For the most current situation I am going to stick to Brandon's side right now, from what I have read. I can't get around the fact a very respected board member, and someone who is always helping people and coming out with an important book, is going to throw it all away over a $300 ball. It would be analogous to me throwing away what credibility I have built over my time in the hobby on a $300 fake type card. I have cards I have probably paid that much tax on. If it came to my cred I would easily give anyone $500 to not tarnish it. I think Brandon would probably do the same thing. I can't explain every single bid from the last 2-3 yrs but I just fall on the side of Bandon at this point. Just my 2 cents.....

I dont think I can agree more with what Leon said here.

If there was a pattern of behavior such as the one described in this thread then I think the witch hunt should continue but this seems like nothing more than a mistake/misunderstanding/whatever. Who hasnt made these types of errors at one time or another? Let it go guys. Let it go.

[batsballsbases]

Ok, I'm a little slow this morning. There are more pages to the thread Witster provided. I referenced the first and last post of his on the first page, only.

The second page includes a response from Brandon of pastimebaseballs.com. Look, obviously he is very knowledgable about the history of baseballs and should continue to share it. However, why hide personal history, even if it entailed producing replica baseballs that looked damned near original? Tell us the whole story and let's all move forward.

Jerry,
The "WHOLE STORY" Hasnt been fabricated yet;) Someone has to figure out who will become the whipping boy. I also agree with Dan Money really has nothing to do with it. This is really a case of Boy got caught with his hand in the cookie jar,is now called out about it and has to figure a way out. Problem is now his creditably is shot to pieces either way he turns. Sorry Brandon I could never ever deal with you . As you put it a 20.50 mistake will now probably cost you your reputation my friend!:rolleyes:

[dtp717]

I'm definitely late to the conversation, but I was shocked by what I began reading yesterday, and these attacks on Brandon have been bothering me since.

Al, I'm sure Brandon is just devastated that he'll never make a deal with you or your ridiculous emoticons ever again. I've got to say between you and Paul and Jerry and a couple of other folks on this thread, I'm deeply disappointed in how easy you all throw around accusations about a person who has gone above and beyond to help so many of us out with questions and concerns about vintage baseballs.

I first corresponded with Brandon when I had a bad eBay experience where someone sold me a fake ball. He couldn't have been more helpful and I've gone to him for valuable advice many time since then.

To think he'd throw away his hard earned reputation over a $20.50 ball is lunacy. It makes no sense.

Doug Franz

[murphusa]

The hobby of collecting is run everyday on the guise of the confidence game. You gain confidence in a person/company until you believe everything they say or do.

It is the invention of ones self and once you become a believer you are forever captured

[batsballsbases]

I'm definitely late to the conversation, but I was shocked by what I began reading yesterday, and these attacks on Brandon have been bothering me since.

Al, I'm sure Brandon is just devastated that he'll never make a deal with you or your ridiculous emoticons ever again. I've got to say between you and Paul and Jerry and a couple of other folks on this thread, I'm deeply disappointed in how easy you all throw around accusations about a person who has gone above and beyond to help so many of us out with questions and concerns about vintage baseballs.

I first corresponded with Brandon when I had a bad eBay experience where someone sold me a fake ball. He couldn't have been more helpful and I've gone to him for valuable advice many time since then.

To think he'd throw away his hard earned reputation over a $20.50 ball is lunacy. It makes no sense.

Doug Franz

Doug,
Your right you are late to this conversation.
1) Go back to post 38 and read it Brandon himself says "I made a 20.50 mistake"
2)As for dealing with him I stated my opinion as you stated yours. I could really give a damn either way.
3) I only posted once in this entire thread.
4) As for yourself I give no weight to a person who has only posted 2 times and given nothing to this board. Looks to me like a person who is friends with Brandon trying to save his @ss.

[batsballsbases]

I'm not sure anything I can say right now will remedy your views at this point. I tried in a previous post to explain everything, including my relationship to the seller. The ball wasn't sold. I noticed just a little too late to have the auction stopped by contacting the seller, I don't live and die on eBay. The buyer ended up being a friend, and I immediately called them and told them to cancel the sale and don't pay for it. They are a member and can confirm that, I will not give that name either though. So just to be clear, the ball was NOT sold.

I cannot give a name as I still have very close personal and financial ties as explained earlier, including website fees and registration for work I've done in the past when I was a full time designer, and I cannot lose that stuff. This person is not a board member, and barely sells anything on ebay anymore, yes they sold repros, but ALWAYS listed as such. Because of our ties with paypal and such, he kept the ebay name to retain the feedback count, and as you can see I started a new one. I'm not sure what good that would do for me especially because those who don't trust me, aren't going to have their minds changed.

I made a $20.50 mistake here, trusted the wrong people, and now I'm being compared to the likes of OJ. I get the concern, but I don't understand the logic of a guy like me, with so much invested in accuracy and credibility purposefully defrauding someone for peanuts, a month before releasing my guides. So if you want to blame me, blame me, but I cannot keep defending every post.

It has come to a conclusion that this is a witch hunt, and it seems I will be taking the full brunt of the blame here regardless, and maybe rightfully so as it was poor judgment on my part not holding on to the ball originally. I never specifically said don't sell the ball, but just assumed they would know better. Again, a poor lapse in judgment on my part. But what comes next here? I don't release the book, I don't help out anymore, over this? The assumption was guilt from the get go, I'm losing a friend, I'm losing credibility...This is a no win for me any way this goes. I don't see what else can come from this, people are selling trimmed cards for hundreds of thousands, and fake Ruth's for thousands, and this is the topic that ruins my credibility? Having a friend who's an idiot?

To those of you that know me, or have taken my advice on baseballs, I sincerely apologize if you feel different about me because of this situation, but my hopes would be that this gets put behind me. This has made me angry and physically sick, and don't know what else to say. This will be my last post regarding this, and I will not be looking at the thread any longer. you can PM me if you would like to talk.

Doug,
Here is the post in case you missed it. Your own boys words!
And as for creditably until he gives up the name of the person HE HAS NONE!

[deebro041]

Quoted from Harper Lee in the book To Kill A Mockingbird, " You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view...Until you climb inside his skin and walk around in it."

[witster]

The seller has changed his eBay user ID.

[shelly]

After reading this thread and Brandon's knowledge that there are people on this site that can get things taken down. Wy did he not ask for help. Then there would be reason to go through all this crap.:confused:

[Runscott]

Shelly, I'm sure he realized that he would get thrown under the bus - if a situation comes up where your reputation could be damaged permanently, it's probably best to seek advice privately. But we all handle such situations differently - I would have gone to Leon and asked him for a contact to get the ball removed, then I would have posted to let everyone here know what I had done. But I don't know Brandon and there could also be additional detail about this that we don't know.

[shelly]

Shelly, I'm sure he realized that he would get thrown under the bus - if a situation comes up where your reputation could be damaged permanently, it's probably best to seek advice privately. But we all handle such situations differently - I would have gone to Leon and asked him for a contact to get the ball removed, then I would have posted to let everyone here know what I had done. But I don't know Brandon and there could also be additional detail about this that we don't know.

I would take that statement as you agree. If it had been taken down this would not be an issue. He did not have to go to Leon all he needed to post and ask to have it taken down. The chance of that happening is really high.

[Runscott]

I would take that statement as you agree. If it had been taken down this would not be an issue. He did not have to go to Leon all he needed to post and ask to have it taken down. The chance of that happening is really high.

No, I don't agree. As I stated, posting publicly about something like this is the best way to get thrown under the bus by some who have logical responses, but also by others who are truly idiots. It might be the way to go for some, but I wouldn't draw and quarter Brandon for choosing not to. I think his failure was in not getting the auction ended, but anyone with half a brain could see that it would have been worse than moronic for Brandon to screw his reputation over something like this. Not saying he didn't, but it's not at all logical.

[shelly]

So you dont agree? Yet you do agree if he had the ball removed this would not have happened.
I also agree that here is a guy that everyone went to for help when it came down to bb's . Now he is a bad guy:confused:

[Runscott]

So you dont agree? Yet you do agree if he had the ball removed this would not have happened.
I also agree that here is a guy that everyone went to for help when it came down to bb's . Now he is a bad guy:confused:

I don't know how it would have played out if he had done what you suggested.

[brandoningram]

Wow...took me a while to get through all of that...
Alot of great concerns here, but I agree that this sounds more like a witch hunt.

Firstly my name is also Brandon and I reside in Ontario Canada. I have never met Grun face to face ( what with the thousands of kms between us ) but have spoken with him on the phone a few times and conversed through hundreds of emails and facebook. I consider him a friend whom I have never actually met. I also collect antique baseballs...when I can afford the ever growing prices...and Blue Jays memorabilia ( lol dont judge ).

Brandon is all about the hobby. Period. He ousts fake balls all of the time with the interest of protecting the hobby. He has accomplished more for the hobby in the last few years than anyone could have imagined, so some respect should be give to him is this respect...not to mention some praise.
He emails ebay all the time having balls removed due to inaccuracies or speculations... I bet he has helped most ball collectors even without their knowledge somewhere along the line. He has stopped me from bidding on balls and has helped me with tips bidding on balls through other certain auction sites.

When he said earlier that he doesnt/wont make alot of money on his books...trust me...he wont be. Ive spoken with him about this sort of thing. He is producing his book (s) for his extreme love for the actual history of baseballs.

I trust EVERYTHING Brandon has ever said to me about baseballs because he IS the expert on baseballs. Can anyone else say that? There is not a chance he would throw any of his success away for a Frick ball. None at all.
Brandon has given his explanation on this matter, so bashing him ( because that is what is occuring here ) doesnt help things. He has cleared up the mess on his end and Im sure will be more diligent in helping the hobby in finding more fraudulant baseballs...but remember here guys, he has a day job and cant sit on these auction sites all day long, so some are going to get by even his eye.