Dumb question on E98 "Old Put Cigars"

[wolf441]

I'm sure that this may be a stupid question, but why are the "Old Puts" considered an ultra-rare subset, rather than just examples of E98's with a back stamp on them? Is there anything in the E98 back checklist that differs from a normal non-stamped E98 reverse? Is there evidence that these cards were issued in packages of Old Put cigars? Does anyone have an example of an actual "Old Put Cigar" package?

[Leon]

Why are different backs on T206 popular? People want them. They are different. The Old Puts are kind of unusual in that they turned candy cards into tobacco cards. I don't know of any Old Put container or wrapper being found but I think there will be one/some found in the future. If you look at a lot of old candy and tobacco ephemera you will see candy and tobacco were lumped together in many stores, catalogs, invoices, billheads etc...

http://luckeycards.com/pe98oldputoverprints.jpg

[Harford20]

Thanks Leon. I never thought about these cards as Candy cards gone tobacco. I was sitting trying to think of any other card series that could be placed in BOTH and could not think of any. In your type collection are there other "dual" series like the Old Put E98?

[frankbmd]

While trying to learn about Old Put cigars, I found nothing unrelated to cards with the stamp, but.......

I found that the old NY central railroad line from NYC to Putnam, NY was referred to as the "Old Put". It operated from the early 1890s until 1913, I believe (perhaps longer), according to one source.

Given the era is the same, is there a relationship between the Old Put stamp and the railroad perhaps. I'll bet there were more than few cigar smokers riding the Old Put in the day.;)

[Leon]

While trying to learn about Old Put cigars, I found nothing unrelated to cards with the stamp, but.......

I found that the old NY central railroad line from NYC to Putnam, NY was referred to as the "Old Put". It operated from the early 1890s until 1913, I believe (perhaps longer), according to one source.

Given the era is the same, is there a relationship between the Old Put stamp and the railroad perhaps. I'll bet there were more than few cigar smokers riding the Old Put in the day.;)

There is a chance the Old Puts were sold on the Old Put train. :)

I will look for some other cards with similar characteristics later...

[wolf441]

While trying to learn about Old Put cigars, I found nothing unrelated to cards with the stamp, but.......

I found that the old NY central railroad line from NYC to Putnam, NY was referred to as the "Old Put". It operated from the early 1890s until 1913, I believe (perhaps longer), according to one source.

Given the era is the same, is there a relationship between the Old Put stamp and the railroad perhaps. I'll bet there were more than few cigar smokers riding the Old Put in the day.;)

Good thought Frank!

Maybe cigars were sold at one of the stations on the line and for a short time, these cards were given out with the cigars??

Is there any evidence that these were made separately from the regular E98 candy issue and not just E98's that someone collected and stamped? Perhaps the same railroad station sold the E98 candy product and scooped up any discarded E98's, stamped and gave them away along with the cigars?? Now we have the makings of an urban legend!!!

[Leon]

Good thought Frank!

Maybe cigars were sold at one of the stations on the line and for a short time, these cards were given out with the cigars??

Is there any evidence that these were made separately from the regular E98 candy issue and not just E98's that someone collected and stamped? Perhaps the same railroad station sold the E98 candy product and scooped up any discarded E98's, stamped and gave them away along with the cigars?? Now we have the makings of an urban legend!!!

My guess is that they were E98s, all made together, then whomever got them put the stamp on their backs.

[dstudeba]

Not the same, but similar. D card morphed into an E card.

http://www.baseballcardresource.com/img/11D310/11D310_zAldonBack.jpg
http://www.baseballcardresource.com/img/11D310/AldonGirl.jpg

[wolf441]

Thanks for the posts Leon and those are beautiful cards! I agree that tobacco and candy products (as well as bread, baking, etc) would be lumped together on catalogs and invoices. You'd have to think that any decent general store at the time would have sold all of these products.

[steve B]

Thanks for the posts Leon and those are beautiful cards! I agree that tobacco and candy products (as well as bread, baking, etc) would be lumped together on catalogs and invoices. You'd have to think that any decent general store at the time would have sold all of these products.

Of course they would. Even today both candy and tobacco are often distributed by the same company. Sometimes other stuff as well. The local one here in Lowell has been around since 1890. Used to be Notini tobacco, but changed to Notini and sons a few years ago.

Steve B

[frankbmd]

Steve,

Just expanding your thought about the stamp being just a stamp.

If there is nothing unique about the cards to differentiate them from the E-98s,
the question then becomes is their really such a thing as an Old Put cigar or are the stamps from the RR stations selling cigars ???

The terminus of the railroad in NYC appears to be around 155 St. Where was the field where the Highlanders played? Perhaps folks from the north of NYC had to take the Old Put to get to the games, hence a plausible connection between baseball cards and the stamp. Just a thought.

[wolf441]

Here's a website that goes through the historical stations along the "Old Put" line:

http://www.billboeckelman.com/content/article.html?id=910922

[frankbmd]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1157685347/last-1157928642/Looking+for+information+about+e98+%26quot%3BOld+Pu t%26quot%3B+cards

Scanned this Old Put thread from the archives in 2006. More questions than answers and no mention of the Railroad.;) I also didn't find evidence of an "Old Put" brand of cigar.

Old Puts may not be tobacco cards at all, they may "railroad" cards.:eek:

[wolf441]

Here's the wiki page on Hilltop Park.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilltop_Park

[frankbmd]

Hilltop was on Broadway between 155th and 158th. The Old Put line was close by. Pretty clear at this point that the Old Put RR transported Highlander fans.

Does anyone out there have proof of a cigar brand named "Old Put"?

Seems like Old Put Cigar ephemera would be more common than the rare card stamp if they actually existed.

Seems to me that "Old Puff" would be a more likely name for a cigar.:D

But what do I know.

The map below shows the Old Put ending at 155th ST -- very interesting.

[sb1]

I did a newspaper search for 5 cent cigars circa 1909-10 and found a zillion different ones, but no Old Put.

I believe it quite possible these were stamped by a one time owner rather than distributed by a vender. Vs. the Aldon Candy Co. which was clearly used to substitute a different seller. At one time I owned one(mack? brown? ??) that had back damage, I think a board member has it. Would be interesting to see if the stamp is applied over the back damage.

[Tim Kindler]

I have done research and checking on 5 cent cigars for years now and haven't been able to find any pics, or text on Old Put Cigars. I did see the railroad line named Old Put. I believe it was named after Isreal Putnam, who's nickname was "Old Put". Putnam was a military hero of our country since its beginnings. He fought in the French and Indian War and in the Revolutionary War. He left his field to join the Minute Men at the battles of Concord and Lexington. He joined the Continental Army and was regarded by George Washington as one of his best leaders. Some claim he was the one who said "Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes" at the Battle of Bunker Hill, not Prescott as widely believed. Who knows for sure. Historian David McCullogh complimented him by saying he was "Tough as any man that ever lived". I can only assume that Old Put 5 cent cigars were named after Putnam, but until something ever shows up on these cigars, we'll never know. As Leon stated, those of us who have collected them or have some in our collections collect them because of their uniqueness or obscurity. Years back, along with the help of many board members, I documented and collected a checklist of the Old Put E98s that the board members either owned or knew of their existence. It can be found in the archives. Here's a scan of one of the few that I own.

[frankbmd]

Thanks Tim.

My understanding of the "Old Put" railroad is that the nickname was derived from the northern end of the line was in Brewster, NY in Putnam County.

Putnam County was obviously named after someone named Putnam though, possibly the Revolutionary War guy or another famous historical Putnam from New York State.

Who knows for sure? Certainly not me.;)

[Eric72]

http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b498/EricsPhotographs/OldPutCigarLabel_zps12a445df.jpg

I found this image on cigarlabelart.com - hope it helps a little.

Here is the link, in case anyone wanted to check out the site:

http://www.cigarlabelart.com/auct%209/inner_10.htm

Best Regards,

Eric

[sb1]

Well..that image would certainly lead you to believe there was an Old Put Cigar and it did in fact come from Israel Putnum who is undoubtedly the character upon the horse. Still a mystery why no ads or other ephemera either exists or can be found in historical records.

[pcoz]

Great info everyone, and Eric that label is awesome! Here are two of the four I have. With only 19 known OP's out there, they really are rare and unique.

[Northviewcats]

This thread is an example of why I love this site.

If you want to learn more about Israel Putman and how he was responsible of bringing cigars to the American colonies in the 1700s, you can check out a book by Eric Burns titled The Smoke of the Gods: A Social History of Tobacco. It was published in 2007. Chapter 6 begins with the story of Putman a war hero being exiled for a time in Cuba, by his friends the British. Putman turned against the British in Cuba, even got into an interesting confrontation with a British officer by outlasting him on a "sitting on a powder keg" duel. During his exile, Putman missed smoking the pipe and when presented a Cuban cigar decided that the cigar was more appropriate for men at war. Easier to handle during battle, and more manly. When he was returned to the colonies he brought cigar smoking back with him where it became popular with the anti-British faction. There are several more interesting stories about Putman in the chapter that made him a Revolutionary War hero in addition to introducing cigars to the colonialists.

I can easily see how this led to Putman being on tobacco advertising as Eric's cigar advertisement suggests.

Best regards,

Joe

[Eric72]

This thread is an example of why I love this site.

If you want to learn more about Israel Putman and how he was responsible of bringing cigars to the American colonies in the 1700s, you can check out a book by Eric Burns titled The Smoke of the Gods: A Social History of Tobacco. It was published in 2007. Chapter 6 begins with the story of Putman a war hero being exiled for a time in Cuba, by his friends the British. Putman turned against the British in Cuba, even got into an interesting confrontation with a British officer by outlasting him on a "sitting on a powder keg" duel. During his exile, Putman missed smoking the pipe and when presented a Cuban cigar decided that the cigar was more appropriate for men at war. Easier to handle during battle, and more manly. When he was returned to the colonies he brought cigar smoking back with him where it became popular with the anti-British faction. There are several more interesting stories about Putman in the chapter that made him a Revolutionary War hero in addition to introducing cigars to the colonialists.

I can easily see how this led to Putman being on tobacco advertising as Eric's cigar advertisement suggests.

Best regards,

Joe

Joe,

This is great info. Just to clarify, I do not own the Old Put advertisement. I merely tracked down an image of it while doing a little research.

I also found this tidbit today, which seems to indicate the exact place in which cigar smoking in America began:

•1762: General Israel Putnam introduces cigar-smoking to the US. After a British campaign in Cuba, "Old Put" returns with three donkey-loads of Havana cigars; introduces the customers of his Connecticut brewery and tavern to cigar smoking

For those who may have an interest, the site can be accessed here:

http://archive.tobacco.org/resources/history/tobacco_history18.html

Best Regards,

Eric

[CW]

My, oh my, that Cobb is awesome, Pete, almost mesmerizing. :o

[pcoz]

My, oh my, that Cobb is awesome, Pete, almost mesmerizing. :o

Thanks Chuck!