How to track down elusive white whales?

[MattyC]

Ok, so with frustration reaching hulk rage-out levels, I'm beginning to hope that I've overlooked some method of locating desired cards. Surely there is a way to find cards we want other than waiting for AH's to open, and then paying those exorbitant 20% premiums. I'd rather put half that cash in the card owner's hand directly.

I've reached out to a couple well-known dealers who've unfortunately been unable to pick up the scent of anything on my want list. I've attended whatever shows I can and asked around there, also to no avail.

It seems there are cards that money just can't buy outside of AH's. Been underbidder three times in a row now. So do you bite the bullet in such instances and pay what you know is over any resale value at an AH just to get the card(s)? Or is there some other avenue one can pursue?

[Leon]

Ok, so with frustration reaching hulk rage-out levels, I'm beginning to hope that I've overlooked some method of locating desired cards. Surely there is a way to find cards we want other than waiting for AH's to open, and then paying those exorbitant 20% premiums. I'd rather put half that cash in the card owner's hand directly.

I've reached out to a couple well-known dealers who've unfortunately been unable to pick up the scent of anything on my want list. I've attended whatever shows I can and asked around there, also to no avail.

It seems there are cards that money just can't buy outside of AH's. Been underbidder three times in a row now. So do you bite the bullet in such instances and pay what you know is over any resale value at an AH just to get the card(s)? Or is there some other avenue one can pursue?

It's a simple formula really. Bid higher. Most of us that have been doing this 10+ yrs know that when you see a really scarce card, and you know it might not come up again for a long time, you buy it. Yes, you overpay a little bit. My collection has hundreds of things I have overpaid for. Is it really overpaying if there is an underbidder right next to your buy price? Pay the money.....or don't get the card.

[MattyC]

Oh I hear ya. Believe me I am not cheap nor am I a bargain hunter. I'm always right there til the end, but there's that one bid at an AH that goes beyond my budget-- and that is the winning bid, lol.

I thus reason if I can connect with an owner directly, I can put equal or even more money in his hand, and stay on budget.

Basically the AH is charging a 19-20% finder's fee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You arent paying any premium to an AH. It is coming out of the consignor,s net.

[Leon]

Oh I hear ya. Believe me I am not cheap nor am I a bargain hunter. I'm always right there til the end, but there's that one bid at an AH that goes beyond my budget-- and that is the winning bid, lol.

I thus reason if I can connect with an owner directly, I can put equal or even more money in his hand, and stay on budget.

Better strategy, to me, is to buy it when you see it. I will bid multiple times what something is worth, depending on what it is, if I have to have it.

[scooter729]

You can always try posting your want list on here with a price you'd pay for the item. Maybe if the offer is attractive enough, the owner will opt for your offer vs. consigning to an auction house. It can't hurt to try!

[MattyC]

Scooter, I am definitely going to stay atop that option. Can't hurt the cause at all.

[MVSNYC]

It's a simple formula really. Bid higher. Most of us that have been doing this 10+ yrs know that when you see a really scarce card, and you know it might not come up again for a long time, you buy it. Yes, you overpay a little bit. My collection has hundreds of things I have overpaid for. Is it really overpaying if there is an underbidder right next to your buy price? Pay the money.....or don't get the card.

+1

Unfortunately Leon's right. Sometimes you have just bite the bullet and bid over your comfort level if you really want/need the card. Case in point, a little over a year ago, 3 different T206 Broad Leaf 460's came up on eBay, same seller. I 'needed' one, so I bid with strength and won one of them. Today it's certainly worth more than I paid. Just keep that in mind, if it's a rare/desirable card, it'll almost always appreciate in value, if there's strong demand there.

Good luck.

[dstudeba]

Been underbidder three times in a row now.

Over what period of time? 1 year? 3 years? 10 years? If it is one year consider yourself lucky that you are going after a card that comes up a lot. Another strategy would be patience. If you are talking about a 10 year span then just bid higher, who cares where it goes, AH or consignor.

[Zone91]

Can you give us a example of say 1 or 2 cards you are ''dying'' to find that way we could have a better opinion? Personally I do not mind overpaying for a card I truly want and have been searching for...for a long time.

As a collector I have learned almost everything comes up for a sale...yes some times it takes years but in that case you have to bid strong.

Or maybe simply your budget DOES NOT fit with the cards you want (maybe the stuff you want is simply outside your league of play...I have a LOT of stuff like that I simply can't afford even if I waited 100 years)...can't want to find a 10 000$ card for 5000$ it just does not happen!!! Personally I am ready to spend up to 10 000$ to 20 000$ on a card I truly want but NOTHING higher than that....NEVER!!! Even if the card was 20 001$ I would simply tell myself it is out of my league and simply move on to other options....and never think about it again as been a possibility...a LOT of us live this way unless you are a millionaire then things are completely different....But I know I will NEVER be a millionaire so I learned to coop with the reality I have in front of me and make my purchases accordingly.

Post # 1

[smotan_02]

Another method is to recruit people to be your eyes. Send me your list and what you are willing to pay and I'll be on the look out for you. I've found that some people are more resourceful and diligent than others when looking for that unique collectible.


PS- Don't be surprised if all the cards come in at exactly what you are willing to pay

[Craig M]

Matt...I can fully understand why you do not post your want list of T206'
s with maybe a few dozen to go. It basically tells us that if you are having difficulty with these certain cards for as long as you have working on your set then these may be cards that should be added to our DIFFICULT list. It may then be wise for us to ramp up the search for these cards; while prices are still within our range.

Personally, I am constantly adding cards to my difficult list as I learn about them.

Adrian...you stated that you will NEVER be a millionaire! How do know that? You should take the word NEVER out of your vocabulary as anything is possible with lots of positive thinking and the correct use of your mind and skills that you have acquired thus far in your life.

Craig

[Zone91]

Craig M

Because I know my salary and expenses. For me to be a millionaire would involve LUCK...and I do not gamble (ex: casino) at all so I would need even more LUCK!!!:D

I will live a comfortable existence (I am more than happy to have) but not a life of a millionaire you have to be honest with yourself in life at a certain point.

Post # 2

[ullmandds]

being a millionaire aint what it used to be!!!!!!! I guess in canada it's not so critical with subsidized health care, etc...but I'd be pretty disappointed if I don't retire a millionaire someday!!!!! I still won't be throwing major bucks at bb cards...unless I win the powerball!

[Zone91]

The if I had a million dollars song...I would be rich:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8zdNe_l3M8

Post # 3

[Craig M]

See, that type of stuff is a true waste of your time!

Use your time, mind and energy towards constructive purpose.

Have a good day; I'm headed into a business meeting.

[smtjoy]

Another thing is the cards you are looking for are somewhat tough and very desirable (I know you are looking for a Ruth Rookie for one) and I think most collectors are going to have a tough time selling at a fixed cost that is around past sales numbers or less vs they can put the hot card up for auction and have a chance at a big upside in a bidding war with only minimal risk on the downside.

If I had any tough Ruths to sell right now I would go AH for sure unless I was offered a new record price on it.

[Streetsideguy]

My White Whales:

Jimmie Foxx 500 Homerun ticket, PSA 3.
AROD 500 Homerun full ticket, PSA 10

1956 Topps Nickel Wax pack
1957 Topps Nickel Wax pack PSA 8
1959 Topps Nickel Wax pack PSA 8, or PSA 9
1961 Topps Nickel Wax pack PSA 9

1958 Topps Cello Pack PSA 8
1961 Topps Cello Pack PSA 10
1964 Topps Cello Pack PSA 9
1965 Topps Cello Pack PSA 9 or PSA 10
1971 Topps Cello Pack PSA 9
1972 Topps Cello Pack PSA 9
1977 Topps Cello Pack PSA 10


If you know who owns these items, I would be happy to have a serious conversation sometime.

Jason

[MVSNYC]

...if I can connect with an owner directly, I can put equal or even more money in his hand, and stay on budget.


Matt- I reach out to people all the time to purchase things directly from them, but more times than not, they want to consign to AH's instead of dealing direct, because otherwise they feel like they are "leaving money on the table." i've been told that a ton of times.

[thehoodedcoder]

Craig M

Because I know my salary and expenses. For me to be a millionaire would involve LUCK...and I do not gamble (ex: casino) at all so I would need even more LUCK!!!:D

I will live a comfortable existence (I am more than happy to have) but not a life of a millionaire you have to be honest with yourself in life at a certain point.

Post # 2

you never know. you could get hit by a rich persons car or bit by a wealthy owner's dog and back into a lump sum. :)

kevin

[Jewish-collector]

Sometimes you just gotta say WTF and put that extra zero before the decimal place in your bid.

[Collect Equity]

Matt -

You should try posting your wantlist at WhiteWhaleCards.com.

The primary reason we built WhiteWhaleCards.com is to create one site where everyone can post their want lists (as well as cards they own). You can specify the condition of the card you are looking for and even post a bounty of how much you would pay for the card.

You can then post a link to your wantlist and your collection in your Net54 signature. Also, WhiteWhaleCards.com is searchable.

In my opinion it's better to keep an accurate and updated wantlist then to post a one time shot in a thread that will soon be buried.

You're welcome to give it a try and let me know what you think.

[ullmandds]

yes...by definition...a white whale will cost ya?!?!

I just picked up 2 pseudo white whales...1 on bst and 1 through sterling auctions...after I placed an ad on bst...the power of suggestion!!!!!

[4815162342]

Sometimes you just gotta say WTF and put that extra zero before the decimal place in your bid.

I keep trying to add a zero and haven't had any luck!

First, I bid $1.00, then $01.00, then $001.00, then $0001.00, ...

[HercDriver]

I'd buy some art, like a Picasso or a Garfunkel...

The if I had a million dollars song...I would be rich:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8zdNe_l3M8

Post # 3

[autograf]

What an ironic coinkidink that the OP used the term 'White Whales' and then 15-20 posts later someone with that exact site URL ops in......Stockton to Malone?

[MattyC]

Well, Leon...

You were right.

[Leon]

Well, Leon...

You were right.

Well, not sure what I was right about, except "buy it when you see it".....but if you picked something up, congrats. Many times I have sniped at 5x+ what something is worth if I have to have it. I have never regretted it.

[dstudeba]

Wow two days to find a white whale, Ishmael was a slacker.

[murcerfan]

.....if only rare cards were easy to find.

[brian1961]

LEON WROTE: Many times I have sniped at 5x+ what something is worth if I have to have it. I have never regretted it.[/QUOTE]

Beautifully expressed, Mr. Luckey. If you really WANT something, and I refer to something that has everything you love in a card, you better believe you must fight to win. If you're thinking, "I must get it for a fair price", or "will there be any upside potential for a profit later?", then you may have a kinda naive mindset. Remember, you're hunting WHITE WHALES. Did you really think there would not be other ships looking for those same whales? Assuming you have good taste, there are others with that same good taste--and they're gonna fight 'til the blood runs, matey!

In some other thread, I mentioned getting a rare Mickey Mantle card for a high amount of cash. Though this was '89, it was a lot of money to me then. Book value may have been barely a grand, but the card presented miles ahead of what you think of when you see VG-EX. His price was $2,500. I asked if he would come down some. No. My worst fear would be that he would consign it to another auction or worse yet, take it to that year's National Convention.

I KNEW if my fellow collectors got a better look at it, my chance would be gone for good. So, I paid 2.5 times book. When I got the card, I was dumbfounded, spellbound. The card was THAT good-looking. It's chapter 3 in my upcoming book. It took perhaps a decade for the book value to match the price I paid. But look, think hard, lots of issues are not studied that closely for value, though now VCP.com has fixed that to a point. Even then, many issues are thinly traded. White whales are excellent examples of this.

Why? The items were almost invariably purchased by a collector for their own collection, not to re-sell in five to ten years, unless one of the four dreaded D's transpires in their life.

They don't call them white whales for nothing. You need to find out where the white whales are--who owns them. If they've owned them a while, it's 'cause they like them. They enjoy them. It might take some hefty jingle for them to say OK. But you want it to be YOUR jingle they're saying yes to.

So, as others have said, let the hobby know you want them. Some ads may cost you. How bad do you want them? Collectors in our hobby and other hobbies used to do that, and sometimes the ad was a full page. If you do it on an internet BST, the space is free. SO GET CREATIVE, OR FIND A FRIEND OR HIRE SOMEONE THAT WILL CREATE A STUNNING VISUAL AD THAT WILL BE NOTICED. IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN MADISON AVENUE. YOU WANT PEOPLE TO NOTICE WHAT YOU WANT IF YOU ARE GOING TO GET THE BITES YOU WANT THAT MAY LEAD TO LANDING SOME OF THOSE DREAM CARDS. Make a small list of 5 that you want the most. If you don't show a figure you're willing to pay, at the very least express that you'll pay handsomely. You better mean it, if you want success. Ask around the hobby--who's a good hunter? Who knows who has what? HIRE HIM.

But that's gonna cost some of my card-buying money? YUP. Again, how bad do you want them? I suppose when you get sick and tired of dreaming about them, as your original post alluded to, you'll listen to some (not necessarily mine, that's completely up to you) of the advice shared here and fight smarter.

I sincerely wish you happy hunting. Oh by the way, I, like Leon, have never regretted getting that rare Mantle. Every time I look at it, the card gives me genuine joy and my admiration for it wells up all over again.;):D

Happy hunting. ---------Brian Powell

[ullmandds]

must have been a humpback whale?!

[MattyC]

Great post, Brian. A really fun and spirited read.

I suppose that sometimes what makes a collector's whale is not just sheer rarity, but rather a confluence of factors. In my case a big challenge was finding the right one for my taste, and fighting the occasional temptation to settle for an example that just didn't feel right.

For example, if one is a serious stickler for centering or image brightness, and shopping in a capped price range to boot, there is always the chance your perfect desired copy of a card does not exist. In this sense, when you finally lay eyes on your dream copy after years of searching, it can feel like a 1 of 1 so to speak.

I personally love older cards that look the part and exhibit charm and character, but there is a fine line between character and utter absence of eye appeal. Finding a specimen which strikes that delicate balance can be tough.

Then a card can feel like a whale eluding you, as its price increases-- perhaps at a pace faster than your income is increasing, lol. So it can be a whole host of things, along with there being relatively few copies in your price range/grade.

It is so true, though, that when buying to keep forever you never regret making that one last, big reach that grabs it.

[brian1961]

Great post, Brian. A really fun and spirited read.

I suppose that sometimes what makes a collector's whale is not just sheer rarity, but rather a confluence of factors. In my case a big challenge was finding the right one for my taste, and fighting the occasional temptation to settle for an example that just didn't feel right.

For example, if one is a serious stickler for centering or image brightness, and shopping in a capped price range to boot, there is always the chance your perfect desired copy of a card does not exist. In this sense, when you finally lay eyes on your dream copy after years of searching, it can feel like a 1 of 1 so to speak.

I personally love older cards that look the part and exhibit charm and character, but there is a fine line between character and utter absence of eye appeal. Finding a specimen which strikes that delicate balance can be tough.

Then a card can feel like a whale eluding you, as its price increases-- perhaps at a pace faster than your income is increasing, lol. So it can be a whole host of things, along with there being relatively few copies in your price range/grade.

It is so true, though, that when buying to keep forever you never regret making that one last, big reach that grabs it.

I'm sorry. I probably misread and misinterpreted what you were asking advice about. I'm a bit embarrassed, but I'll get over it. When you wrote of white whales, it connoted something else to my mind. Oh well. Also, I am probably unworthy of giving that advice since I have not been collecting competitively for a decade now. Some of what I conveyed still holds true, however. Still, in this massed wired era, a few strategies are completely unknown to me, me thinks. So, you are by no means naive, and I by all means jumped the gun. Hopefully you'll allow me one false start, as in track & field.:o

Be that as it may, I can well understand your frustration over the difficulty of finding certain cards, that have the right combination of characteristics you find appealing. Many that you want are entrenched in sets, whose owner will not break up until he wishes to part with the set as a whole. Then the set may or may not be sold or auctioned off individually. After a few years, those heavily desired cards would take on the persona of a white whale to you. Quite.

The confluence of factors is finally crowned with the diabolical reality that by the time you find the right piece, it is priced out of your range. As Daffy Duck would say, in part, "what a revolting development!"

Putting the word out via message boards, and enlisting the help of a good dealer might still be viable allies to you in your fight to gain your cardboard gold.

Cheers. ---------Brian Powell

[MattyC]

Brian,

All good. Your writing is quite enjoyable. Ultimately I wanted it badly enough to go all out and win it. Amazing feeling.

I just knew, beyond any doubt, that I would never find another specimen in the grade as nice as the one in question. It was a true anomaly of eye appeal for the grade, and the one for me. Luckily it was my very max bid that held on.

[CW]

OK, I got tired of the innuendo so I did some sleuthing.

And if you're not going to ****ing post it, I will :) :D

http://www.collectorfocus.com/images/show/mattianc/my-collection/11070/1916-m101-babe-ruth-rc

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[ullmandds]

wowsers...that's an awesome example!!!!!!!

I was wondering when this beating around the bush would end?!

And the answer to how one gets their white whale...you throw lots of $$$$ at it!!!!!

[MBMiller25]

Thats a beautiful card. Just unreal. Congrats Matt

[glchen]

Congratulations, Matt. That's a huge card.

[MattyC]

Okay, CW-- you are my boy so I will cop to it :)

I thank the Cardboard Gods every day for that little paper loss on the verso. Or perhaps, more accurately, I should thank the grading rules that put that specimen in a 10/1 holder.

Thanks so much for the good vibes and nice words.

I'd never have went so hard for it were it not for some very educated, generous, and helpful fellow collectors who provided amazing insight and advice.

[CW]

Great image on that example. And judging by the crazy contrast Legendary has going on with their scans, I'm imagining it's going to look even better in hand.

Major congrats!

[e107collector]

Matt,

That's a show stopper! It's a perfect example of buy the card, not the holder.

Nice contrast and perfect centering.

It was meant for you to have that card.

Best regards,
Tony

[murcerfan]

no way a show could go on really.



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[Leon]

Okay, CW-- you are my boy so I will cop to it :)

I thank the Cardboard Gods every day for that little paper loss on the verso. Or perhaps, more accurately, I should thank the grading rules that put that specimen in a 10/1 holder.

Thanks so much for the good vibes and nice words.

I'd never have went so hard for it were it not for some very educated, generous, and helpful fellow collectors who provided amazing insight and advice.

beautiful Ruth, Matt. Congrats.

[seablaster]

Well done Matt. :)

[bcbgcbrcb]

Great card, Matt, Congrats!

[MattyC]

Thanks, much appreciated.

Now if only CW knew where all those clean, gorgeous 1914 CJ Cobbs went!