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EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 10:23 AM
of their time.

From 1980 through today - - - - where these players, compared to those they played with, the best of their time.

Cardboard Junkie
05-24-2013, 10:25 AM
of their time.

From 1980 through today - - - - where these players, compared to those they played with, the best of their time.

?

auggiedoggy
05-24-2013, 10:26 AM
?

+1 :confused:

Leon
05-24-2013, 10:36 AM
Not sure why this is in the pre-war section but, as the rules state, members can do some off topics. In that respect lets let this stay on the front page but everyone should be careful of what forum you are posting in, with respect to the subject matter. I have no clue about the question. (not to sound mean, but I really don't care :))

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 10:38 AM
sry about where i put it. Question is about do you think these players were or were not the best of their time.

Sometimes people say bonds (lets say) should be in the HOF cause hes not the HR leader, or mays was better etc. Pleayer should and are supposed to be compared to the players of their time, not those who came before them or after them, IMO.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 10:41 AM
Why did you put Sheff on that list? He's not even close to deserving it

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 10:42 AM
Barry was certainly better at growing his head size than most all of his peers.

Cardboard Junkie
05-24-2013, 10:42 AM
All the players listed...suck.

Leon
05-24-2013, 10:43 AM
sry about where i put it. Question is about do you think these players were or were not the best of their time.



I think everyone understands the question. But none of these guys have pre-WWII cards of them. Had you put this in the correct forum, for Post 1980 cards, then it would be in the correct spot. But no big deal and good luck with the vote....

http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34




.

rainier2004
05-24-2013, 10:44 AM
All the players listed...suck.

Im assuming youre joking here. How can anyone not love Ripken or Jeter?

Zone91
05-24-2013, 10:47 AM
I only follow these current players....Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols and Derek Jeter....but they have no special meaning to me....just like to see their stats go up. I use to like watching Ken Griffey Jr play as well and Nolan Ryan when I was a kid. Miguel Cabrera is also a fun player to watch.

In the end I simply watch baseball for baseball not any specific players.

Post # 11

auggiedoggy
05-24-2013, 10:50 AM
Barry was certainly better at growing his head size than most all of his peers.

Ruth and Aaron FTW baby!!! :D

I would agree that Barry was one of the biggest A-holes of his era.

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 10:54 AM
I think everyone understands the question. But none of these guys have pre-WWII cards of them. Had you put this in the correct forum, for Post 1980 cards, then it would be in the correct spot. But no big deal and good luck with the vote....

http://www.net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34




.

thanks Leon im interested to see peoples thoughts on these specific players, and see how they understand and interpert the question.

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 10:54 AM
Ruth and Aaron FTW baby!!! :D

I would agree that Barry was one of the biggest A-holes of his era.

lmao yes but thats not the question

auggiedoggy
05-24-2013, 10:57 AM
lmao yes but thats not the question

I never miss an opportunity to rip Barry a new one. :p

Cardboard Junkie
05-24-2013, 11:02 AM
Im assuming youre joking here. How can anyone not love Ripken or Jeter?

Yes, in a way I'm joking...but seriously Ripken and Jeter couldn't collectively have carried Cobb's Jock strap.

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 11:05 AM
Yes, in a way I'm joking...but seriously Ripken and Jeter couldn't collectively have carried Cobb's Jock strap.

Agreed, but we are comparing them to the players , they played with, not of any before 1980

Peter_Spaeth
05-24-2013, 11:07 AM
How can anyone seriously say Bonds was not one of the best of his time?

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 11:09 AM
I didn't say that, he was.

tcdyess
05-24-2013, 11:10 AM
All the players listed...suck.

come on.... seriously? Ripken and Jeter are what baseball should be about and have carried the torch from icons past.....

Cardboard Junkie
05-24-2013, 11:10 AM
How can anyone seriously say Bonds was not one of the best of his time?

Because of performance enhancing drugs?

auggiedoggy
05-24-2013, 11:21 AM
How can anyone seriously say Bonds was not one of the best of his time?

Glad you asked.

He was a druggie.
Hope this helps.

Next ...

yanksfan09
05-24-2013, 11:21 AM
Because of performance enhancing drugs?

Obviously I can't ignore his steroid use. I only look at his pre 1999 numbers as legitimate. The story goes after 1998 when he saw all the attention that McGwire and Sosa got, he told other players that he was going to try it. I don't know exactly the words used but that's the basic message he said from what I heard and from 1999 on he was juiced up.....as much or more than anyone else!

Even so, when only comparing him to others of his time, his pre 1999 numbers are still fantastic in their own right, just not top 5 player immortal all time numbers!

Peter_Spaeth
05-24-2013, 11:23 AM
Because of performance enhancing drugs?

Yeah before drugs he was just a three time MVP winner, perennial all star and Gold Glove winner, and probably the best all around player in the game. Next?

jhs5120
05-24-2013, 11:24 AM
Yes, in a way I'm joking...but seriously Ripken and Jeter couldn't collectively have carried Cobb's Jock strap.

Completely different era. While Cobb is top 5 ever, I don't think he would've been as successful in today's game.

Jeter and Ripken were/are some of the best.

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 11:32 AM
okok, I think we have a decent sample size for the main point.

Take a look at some of these life time numbers, (some are of players we didnt vote on some are some that we did) I find the vote very interesting.

– 509 HR, .292 BA, 253 SB, .393 OBP

– 431 HR, .276 BA, .340 OBP

– 255 HR, 313 BA, 348 SB, .382 OBP

– 234 HR, .306 BA, 504 SB, .369 OBP

– 363 HR, .296 BA, .409 OBP

z28jd
05-24-2013, 11:45 AM
I think when you pick out great players and only compare them to their era, then the answer is pretty obvious that they were among the best. Since you didn't say top ten or any number, then the answer is subjective. I don't think Jeter was one of the top ten of his era, but I would still call him one of the best of the era. Without more qualifiers, the results are flawed.

Sheffield would be low end for this group, but I still think he was a great player at times. Amazing bat speed, coaching 3B with him up should have got someone hazard pay. Larry Bowa used to stand about 20 feet further back with him up

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 11:47 AM
Yeah before drugs he was just a three time MVP winner, perennial all star and Gold Glove winner, and probably the best all around player in the game. Next?

Which makes it all the more puzzling why he felt like he needed to cheat

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 11:48 AM
IMO Bonds and Clemens are sure fire HOF easy call, they have nothing to do with my question really, more of a hook and a guide for the real question.

Now IMO the best stats of these 5 that I posted are Sheffields, (no need to post bonds numbers they are sick) IMO its not even close. And hes got the lowest BY FAR votes, even though most people voted for bonds and Clemens who are “more” steroid type guys.

Jeter and Molitor have almost exactly the same stats – scary, right Yankee fans.

Just funny how people perceive Sheffield, the guy was awesome. And funny how people sometimes put other players higher up that what they are.



1 - Gary Sheffield – 509 HR, .292 BA, 253 SB, .393 OBP

2 – Ripkin – 431 HR, .276 BA, .340 OBP

3 – Jeter – 255 HR, 313 BA, 348 SB, .382 OBP

4 – molitor – 234 HR, .306 BA, 504 SB, .369 OBP

5 – Berkman – 363 HR, .296 BA, .409 OBP

barrysloate
05-24-2013, 11:50 AM
I'm starting to think that maybe none of them is as good as Miguel Cabrera. Does anyone else but me think he may win back-to-back Triple Crowns?

Peter_Spaeth
05-24-2013, 11:50 AM
Which makes it all the more puzzling why he felt like he needed to cheat

He was jealous of McGwire and Sosa, felt that they were getting all the attention while he was clearly the superior player.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 11:53 AM
He was jealous of McGwire and Sosa, felt that they were getting all the attention while he was clearly the superior player.

Couldn't have said it better myself

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 11:53 AM
He was jealous of McGwire and Sosa, felt that they were getting all the attention while he was clearly the superior player.

Well that's certainly a good reason.

Peter_Spaeth
05-24-2013, 12:02 PM
IMO Bonds and Clemens are sure fire HOF easy call, they have nothing to do with my question really, more of a hook and a guide for the real question.

Now IMO the best stats of these 5 that I posted are Sheffields, (no need to post bonds numbers they are sick) IMO its not even close. And hes got the lowest BY FAR votes, even though most people voted for bonds and Clemens who are “more” steroid type guys.

Jeter and Molitor have almost exactly the same stats – scary, right Yankee fans.

Just funny how people perceive Sheffield, the guy was awesome. And funny how people sometimes put other players higher up that what they are.



1 - Gary Sheffield – 509 HR, .292 BA, 253 SB, .393 OBP

2 – Ripkin – 431 HR, .276 BA, .340 OBP

3 – Jeter – 255 HR, 313 BA, 348 SB, .382 OBP

4 – molitor – 234 HR, .306 BA, 504 SB, .369 OBP

5 – Berkman – 363 HR, .296 BA, .409 OBP

Can't compare Ripken and Jeter to an outfielder. And Sheffield's stats were longevity stats, he was not consistently among the best players in the game, no MVPs etc. And he bounced around from one team to the next.

KCRfan1
05-24-2013, 12:27 PM
All the players listed...suck.

Are you current with baseball or too stuck in pre-war?

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 12:28 PM
So you are already regarded as the best all round player in baseball with multiple MVPs, and you get so jealous of two one-dimensional players that you make a decision that will forever put a stench on your career. That's bright.

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 12:31 PM
Can't compare Ripken and Jeter to an outfielder. And Sheffield's stats were longevity stats, he was not consistently among the best players in the game, no MVPs etc. And he bounced around from one team to the next.

OK lets say:

robin yount: 251 HR, 285 BA, 271 SB, 342 OBP - He won an MVP as a SS and then another in the OF.

I wasnt trying to compare him to an OF, but rather a certin type of hitter, other SS nomar, miguel tejada (MVP), or Arod(MVP), Hanily, Toulo I could name many others.

The main point was how people look at Sheffield and place him as not one of the best of his time and how people place Jeter as one of the best of his time. but hes got a life time 292 average with over 500 hr and over 250 sb and almost 400 OBP.

Compiled? he hit 290-300 every year . He hit at least 20 HR every year but 1 that he got at least 400 AB, which was his 2ed to last year when he hit 19.

As far as the MVP's yes Sheff never won an MVP, Ripkin won 2 MVPs, yount won 2 (1 as a ss), tejada won 1, arod 1 as a ss (2 more at 3b)
and just like sheff Jeter won 0 as well.

Eric72
05-24-2013, 12:36 PM
I'm starting to think that maybe none of them is as good as Miguel Cabrera. Does anyone else but me think he may win back-to-back Triple Crowns?

Hi Barry,

Cabrera pulling off that nearly unthinkable feat is certainly within the realm of possibilty and I think he may actually accomplish it.

His current Triple Crown stats:

.391 BA (1st - by a mile)
14 HR (2nd - and only one off the leader)
55 RBI (1st - with a comfortable lead)

Hope all is well.

Best Regards,

Eric

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 12:40 PM
Miguel Cabrera is a beast, always has been. I hoped the mets would of gotten him, but no traded to DET, wtf. lol Omar loved this guy. Ayway, at only 30 years old hes got a shot at making a run at some of the best hitters of all time if he keeps it up.

barrysloate
05-24-2013, 12:40 PM
Hi Eric- his numbers are actually better this year than last. Amazing!

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 12:42 PM
I think barring injury he's even odds to do it.

rainier2004
05-24-2013, 12:54 PM
I think theres a shot. The 2 main factors being how big of a lead can he get with this current hot streak and who will challenge him in HRs later in the season. Cabrera does sacrifice power for contact, especially with 2 strikes resulting in lots of solid hitting and few les HRs which is great. He is an amazing hitter, the best I have seen in Detroit in my 29 years of memory. He adjusts to pitchers, knows how to make contact, drives the ball the other day, hits off-speed and hits for clutch. He hits over .500 BA w/ runners in scoring position this year and has been for awhile now.

Cabrera typically has sub-standard at-bats earlier in the year and owns the month of September in the past few years. He has a nice RBI lead and its grown with Jackson outta the line-up. I am glad he is a Tiger and definitely think he can repeat as triple crown...and repeat MVP!




I'm starting to think that maybe none of them is as good as Miguel Cabrera. Does anyone else but me think he may win back-to-back Triple Crowns?

Cardboard Junkie
05-24-2013, 01:01 PM
Are you current with baseball or too stuck in pre-war?

I would say stuck in prewar.....if we're talking Vietnam.

This may sound very strange to most here but I like baseball cards a lot more than I like baseball. Lost interest in the game when I discovered "hippie" life. Never lost interest in the cards though.

Last baseball game I went to was Denny Mclain winning 31 in 1968.
Last Hockey game was at Olympia waaaay before even goalies wore masks and helmets were unheard of. 1964.
Last football game was the lions when they played at Briggs Stadium 1959.
Last Basketball game was the Pistons when they played at Cobo Hall (Can't remember the year).
Last super concert... Hendrix at Flint IMA (Front row center).

Jlighter
05-24-2013, 01:03 PM
I'm starting to think that maybe none of them is as good as Miguel Cabrera. Does anyone else but me think he may win back-to-back Triple Crowns?

He can do the .avg and RBI, I'm hesitant on HRs though. Take away his 3 HR game against the Rangers and he ranks 11th.

We could make a pool on will he, won't he.

KCRfan1
05-24-2013, 01:05 PM
I would say stuck in prewar.....if we're talking Vietnam.

This may sound very strange to most here but I like baseball cards a lot more than I like baseball. Lost interest in the game when I discovered "hippie" life. Never lost interest in the cards though.

Last baseball game I went to was Denny Mclain winning 31 in 1968.
Last Hockey game was at Olympia waaaay before even goalies wore masks and helmets were unheard of. 1964.
Last football game was the lions when they played at Briggs Stadium 1959.
Last Basketball game was the Pistons when they played at Cobo Hall (Can't remember the year).
Last super concert... Hendrix at Flint IMA (Front row center).

I too am into my cards more than the game. I'll bet Hendrix was amazing.

Julz24
05-24-2013, 01:18 PM
Far and away the greatest player I've ever seen play in person was Barry Bonds. A 7-time MVP, Bonds was in the zone at the plate for years. He was the most feared hitter of our time, and got pitched around more than anyone in history.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 01:18 PM
He can do the .avg and RBI, I'm hesitant on HRs though. Take away his 3 HR game against the Rangers and he ranks 11th.

We could make a pool on will he, won't he.

I say no, Mauer will top him in BA. Winning three in a row is tough, and a hot streak like that for two straight years in astronomical.

Will abmit I am a little biased to Mauer, and I view Mauer as a better hitter (different type of hitter, don't need to blast me about RBI's and HR's).

One of my dreams in my lifetime was to be around for someone to win the Triple Crown, and that happened.

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 01:23 PM
Far and away the greatest player I've ever seen play in person was Barry Bonds. A 7-time MVP, Bonds was in the zone at the plate for years. He was the most feared hitter of our time, and got pitched around more than anyone in history.

Agree^

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 01:25 PM
Far and away the greatest player I've ever seen play in person was Barry Bonds. A 7-time MVP, Bonds was in the zone at the plate for years. He was the most feared hitter of our time, and got pitched around more than anyone in history.

My thoughts exactly, as I view him as THE greatest ever. I really regret not seeing him play, had tried to convince my dad for years...

Leon
05-24-2013, 01:28 PM
This may sound very strange to most here but I like baseball cards a lot more than I like baseball. Lost interest in the game when I discovered "hippie" life. Never lost interest in the cards though.




Can't name 5 players today. Don't care. I can't stand current MLB but will watch it every now and then if my wife is watching it. I love collecting Pre-War cards and love the hobby though. There are a few of us but probably less than 1/2 of 1 percent. And for me it wasn't hippie stuff that got me less interested it was the strike and the high costs of going to a game. Add that to the fact that a lot of the MLB players are D-bags and there you have it. I still love to play softball and love the game in general. Bring on the minor leagues, now those games I love going to ....

Peter_Spaeth
05-24-2013, 01:35 PM
9 votes against Jeter?

Paul S
05-24-2013, 01:47 PM
9 votes against Jeter?

All Boston fans :D

Makes me wonder how much the votes are skewed upon regional preferences.

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 01:49 PM
Far and away the greatest player I've ever seen play in person was Barry Bonds. A 7-time MVP, Bonds was in the zone at the plate for years. He was the most feared hitter of our time, and got pitched around more than anyone in history.

My thoughts exactly, as I view him as THE greatest ever. I really regret not seeing him play, had tried to convince my dad for years...

With Pujols overlapping his career I don't know how Bonds can ever be considered the Best of our time:
First full 12 years of Bonds compared to the last 12 years of Pujols:

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 01:54 PM
With Pujols overlapping his career I don't know how Bonds can ever be considered the Best of our time:
First full 12 years of Bonds compared to the last 12 years of Pujols:

Pujols has a lot more PA's than Bonds, and AB's. Think it would be close to even if Bonds had as many AB's

KCRfan1
05-24-2013, 02:02 PM
With Pujols overlapping his career I don't know how Bonds can ever be considered the Best of our time:
First full 12 years of Bonds compared to the last 12 years of Pujols:

The poll is " ONE of the the best " , not THE best.

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 02:05 PM
Pujols has a lot more PA's than Bonds, and AB's. Think it would be close to even if Bonds had as many AB's

HAHA, Based off Averages then you are right Bonds would have 1092 SO instead of 958 where as Pujols only had 780.

I can't imagine batting avg, OBP, or SLG would have changed much since they are already averages which put them on equal footing.

Then you look at the 162 game average (also included in the screen shot I provided) Pujols still dominates in Hits and Home Runs.

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 02:07 PM
My thoughts exactly, as I view him as THE greatest ever. I really regret not seeing him play, had tried to convince my dad for years...

The poll is " ONE of the the best " , not THE best.

If I was quoting the original poll that would be correct. As seen in my quote above the claim was made that Bonds was "The greatest ever".

Julz24
05-24-2013, 02:18 PM
With Pujols overlapping his career I don't know how Bonds can ever be considered the Best of our time:
First full 12 years of Bonds compared to the last 12 years of Pujols:

Point well taken. But Bonds still must be considered "one of" the best of his time.

I admit to being a bit biased. I witnessed Bonds have incredible games year after year. The two games I saw Pujols he posted O-Fers.

We'll have to see how Pujols holds up over the rest of his career.

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 02:21 PM
All Boston fans :D

Makes me wonder how much the votes are skewed upon regional preferences.

im not a boston fan.

I think ruth is the best player ever, Joe d and the mick are top 7 players ever, arod is one of the best hitters I have ever seen and Donnie Baseball is top 3 1st base men fielders ever.

Jeter just isnt one of the best players of his time IMO

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 02:22 PM
With Pujols overlapping his career I don't know how Bonds can ever be considered the Best of our time:
First full 12 years of Bonds compared to the last 12 years of Pujols:

lets see how it ends up,

EvilKing00
05-24-2013, 02:25 PM
IMO ruth is the best ever, Bonds is the best I have ever seen.

steve B
05-24-2013, 02:31 PM
I voted against all but Clemens.

Bonds was great, but I don't think "best of his time" I've never considered MVP to be any sort of reliable indicator, too many times it's given to a very good player on a very good team. Usually teams that would have been good without them. (Or in Arods case, probably better despite the flashy stats)
Of the three pre steroid MVPs for bonds one was a mediocre season among a sea of mediocre seasons. The other one in Pittsburg benefitted from the team being good. The only one of the three that was really great was the last pre steroid one in 93.

Sheffield? I just don't see it. back off a bit on the power late in his career, he's a 450HR guy with a decent average. Maybe not implicated in steroids, I haven't really kept track. But the attacking the bullpen help over a towel is in the roid rage category. There's plenty of guys with similar power and a bit less average, so no Not best of his time, and the good average combined with playing a bit in NY is I think the only thing that gets him into the HOF.
http://voices.yahoo.com/you-re-out-hitters-400-career-home-runs-not-in-8328547.html

Heck, I'd take some of those guys over Sheffield every time.

I had a tough time with the other three.
Jeter is I think borderline. If you count his entire career, maybe . But there have been stretches where he wasn't even the best shortstop. Among the best for sure, and he has outlasted Nomar, Tejada, and made Arod move. That's got to count for something. I'm a Boston guy, so maybe I'm biased because of the NY hype "best yankee ever"? Really!? Top 10, but not best.

Clemens I voted for. Maybe shouldn't have. He was amazing to watch, and a very intense competitor. Especially from 86-96 The last four years in Boston he -I think unfairly-took a lot of the heat for a pretty bad team. Yeah, they won the division in 95 but with only 86 wins. He did just fine for Toronto after leaving. A few points off for "it's not about the money" then going with the money. I really liked what he was trying towards the end of his career, I think at some point in the future we'll see more aging players being brought in part-time for a contending team that needs either a good clubhouse presence or just a guy who can win a few down the stretch because he might have 10 game sor so in him but not a full season. (And I know hardly anyone else liked the idea)

As much as I like Ripken I just couldn't count him as Best. And that's always tougher for someone who stayed around so long. Look at the list of guys you'd have to compare him to. Ozzie Smith, Jeter, Arod, Nomar, Tejada, Jay Bell, and probably 10 others. That he led the league in assists at short so many times and doing it by being in the right spot rather than pure quickness is amazing. But it also would depend on having the right sorts of pitcher, If the outfield gets more chances, the infielders might not seem all that good statistically.

Picking a best of any player over a career stretch is challenging because of overlap, changing outlook by management, and loads of other stuff. I prefer to look at stretches of 5-10 years. I think all the players listed were probably the best at their position over some random 5 year stretch. And like it or not if I'm thinking of it as who would I rather have on a team if I owned it Then the value of positive PR enters the equation. Bonds and Shefield No, Clemens, Jeter Maybe. Ripken yes. ( Although I'd make exceptions, I really wanted to see Kingman for a full season in Fenway. We wouldn't even be discussing the steroid guys single season numbers.)

Steve B

KCRfan1
05-24-2013, 02:32 PM
Barry's first year and his last 3 years brought his career averages down a bit. We'll have to wait on AP to see how his numbers towards the end of his career affect his averages. I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 02:41 PM
Steve,
I think you were very generous not mentioning steroids while opining about Clemens when you did so about Bonds. Maybe he was amazing but I am glad he ended up one win behind Greg Maddux. That's karma for you.

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 02:43 PM
IMO ruth is the best ever, Bonds is the best I have ever seen.

Having seen both Bonds and Pujols (obviously more because I am in STL) and comparing the stats I would say Pujols is clearly better. To say we will have to see how it ends isn't a fair comparison since it is common knowledge that Bonds ended with Steroids. What we do know for sure is that Pujols compared to the pre drugged version of Bonds, Pujols was by far better.

Pujols has been off since being in LA, but only off for him. Compared to Bonds, last years stats for Pujols (his worst year, his 12th in the Majors) was better than the first 4 of Bonds and isn't far from his 6th and 10th years.

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 02:45 PM
Having seen both Bonds and Pujols (obviously more because I am in STL) and comparing the stats I would say Pujols is clearly better. To say we will have to see how it ends isn't a fair comparison since it is common knowledge that Bonds ended with Steroids. What we do know for sure is that Pujols compared to the pre drugged version of Bonds, Pujols was by far better.

Pujols has been off since being in LA, but only off for him. Compared to Bonds, last years stats for Pujols (his worst year, his 12th in the Majors) was better than the first 4 of Bonds and isn't far from his 6th and 10th years.

All that being said (and I agree with you), as a Cardinal fan I think the smartest thing they ever did was let him walk (hobble) away.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 02:50 PM
HAHA, Based off Averages then you are right Bonds would have 1092 SO instead of 958 where as Pujols only had 780.

I can't imagine batting avg, OBP, or SLG would have changed much since they are already averages which put them on equal footing.

Then you look at the 162 game average (also included in the screen shot I provided) Pujols still dominates in Hits and Home Runs.

Don't know how it's a laughing matter. Yes, Pujols probably had one of the, if not the greatest first 10 years in Major League history, I'll admit that. But having 1,000 more AB's can change the overall average a decent amount, that's 1 1/2-2yrs worth...I just can't place him as high as other guys because of his defensive value.

Paul S
05-24-2013, 02:50 PM
... I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

I think there would have been some substantial innuendo about by this point. So for now I'll say No. (I do have to say, over 500 doubles at this point is incredible for this day and age).
No one thought when Jeter was first coming into the league that he would ever have this sort of a career either. Haven't heard a word about his juicing either.

In this skeptical day and age, maybe sometimes someone is just having a great career?

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 02:51 PM
lets see how it ends up,

+1, that's what matters

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 02:57 PM
Barry's first year and his last 3 years brought his career averages down a bit. We'll have to wait on AP to see how his numbers towards the end of his career affect his averages. I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

I only showed their first 12 years (since Pujols has only played 12 thus far) so the fact that Bond's last three were low doesn't matter.

Also to say that no one saw the career coming is wrong, being in the Stadium the day he debut I know that people were expecting things from him because my dad even told me to watch this guy because he was going to be good as he walked up to the plate. He was drafted late because there was uncertainty about his age, not because he wasn't good.

To say that he may not go anywhere from now on doesn't negate the first 10 years of his career. He is the only player in major league history to bat at least .300 with 30 or more home runs and 100 or more runs batted in in his first 10 seasons.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 03:10 PM
Barry's first year and his last 3 years brought his career averages down a bit. We'll have to wait on AP to see how his numbers towards the end of his career affect his averages. I'm curious, does anyone believe Albert is juicing? Drafted in the 13th round ( from my former school Maple Woods Community College ), and debued about 18 months later in the majors. Seriously, nobody saw this career coming. Is he juicing?

And who knows how old is he too lol

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 03:12 PM
Don't know how it's a laughing matter. Yes, Pujols probably had one of the, if not the greatest first 10 years in Major League history, I'll admit that. But having 1,000 more AB's can change the overall average a decent amount, that's 1 1/2-2yrs worth...I just can't place him as high as other guys because of his defensive value.

You are making this a laughing matter. Pujols was 47th for career Fielding Pct. for his postion Bonds is 50th. You are trying to negate a career because the number of at bats isn't the exact same? A thousand ABs more and you believe that would have turned Bonds into a .325 hitter in his first 12 years instead of the .288? HAHA. Ok lets give him 2 more years that puts Bonds AB at 6976 compared to the 6919 of Pujols, is that a closer number for you and you are prepared to look at the stats?

Bonds now has a batting average of....wait for it... .288. What? it didn't change, you said with 1000 more at bats it would be better. Hey his OBP did jump a point from .408 to .409. I was generous on strikeouts though he ended up with 1112.

Jlighter
05-24-2013, 03:12 PM
And who knows how old is he too lol

He's not 33, he's not 33, you can show me indisputable genetic evidence and I still won't believe it.

Here he is at "19":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://www.stlouismemorabilia.com/Albert%20Pujols%20Game%20Use/Pujols%20High%20Close.JPG

This one 18!

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1018/espnhs_albert_pujols_1998_area_code_games_200x300. jpg

And the last one 19!

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 03:15 PM
I only showed their first 12 years (since Pujols has only played 12 thus far) so the fact that Bond's last three were low doesn't matter.

Also to say that no one saw the career coming is wrong, being in the Stadium the day he debut I know that people were expecting things from him because my dad even told me to watch this guy because he was going to be good as he walked up to the plate. He was drafted late because there was uncertainty about his age, not because he wasn't good.

To say that he may not go anywhere from now on doesn't negate the first 10 years of his career. He is the only player in major league history to bat at least .300 with 30 or more home runs and 100 or more runs batted in in his first 10 seasons.

I believe Pujols was going to be a first or second round (or early around that number) pick by the Rays that year. The scout who got Pujols pretty much made the Cards draft him, RAVED about him in Juco and predicted he'd be a superstar, other scouts viewed him as a guy with moderate power, fat, and a bad fielding first baseman.

Shoele$$
05-24-2013, 03:16 PM
Ripken and Jeter are class acts and deserve all the praise they receive......don't have much good to say about the other 3 doucebags you have listed. Barry Bonds was one the first guys to also get heavily into steroids around the mid 90's. I think he's a complete joke with the majority of his stats being inflated by the juice. He deserves NEVER to be voted into the hall of fame.

steve B
05-24-2013, 03:19 PM
Steve,
I think you were very generous not mentioning steroids while opining about Clemens when you did so about Bonds. Maybe he was amazing but I am glad he ended up one win behind Greg Maddux. That's karma for you.

Darn, I'd planned on mentioning it. I got sidetracked on the whole "part time player" thing.

I don't view Clemens use the way I do Bonds. while the two great years in Toronto might be steroids, the years I see as steroid years for him are the ones in NY, and he really wasn't the same sort of pitcher. More of an aging player using to hold on to a career. The part time thing he worked while with Houston shows he really wasn't ready mentally to retire, but also really couldn't perform over a full season anymore.
Eckersley converted to being a reliever, and has said that worked very well for him. Going from a washed up starter because he'd lose both velocity and motion after a few innings to a reliever who could just fire it for an inning or maybe two was a revelation. But it's also something a lot of starters egos can't handle until it's too late.

Bonds use I see as a far sadder situation. I think he'd have set the career record a couple years after he did without using. He really needed the admiration, and couldn't pass it up short term to get the big reward in the longer term. He probably would have played even a couple years past that as well, Maybe a farewell year with Pittsburg? But the steroids and his attitude made him essentially unsignable once the record had been set.

I do have a bit of a Boston bias. I might be among the few Boston fans to openly admit it.

Steve b

timber63401
05-24-2013, 03:19 PM
With Pujols overlapping his career I don't know how Bonds can ever be considered the Best of our time:
First full 12 years of Bonds compared to the last 12 years of Pujols:


Not totally fair since Bonds best seasons was after his first 12 and Pujols seems to be done as a top-tier ball player. The bigger problem is comparing the old stars to todays stars, its not fair. Humans have grown and evolved over the last 100 years. Take the top 10 players of 2013 put them in a time machine to play the top 10 players of 1913 and the old timers get clobbered. Just like if you did the same with football or basketball players.

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 03:22 PM
Not totally fair since Bonds best seasons was after his first 12

Strange isn't it?

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 03:25 PM
You are making this a laughing matter. Pujols was 47th for career Fielding Pct. for his postion Bonds is 50th. You are trying to negate a career because the number of at bats isn't the exact same? A thousand ABs more and you believe that would have turned Bonds into a .325 hitter in his first 12 years instead of the .288? HAHA. Ok lets give him 2 more years that puts Bonds AB at 6976 compared to the 6919 of Pujols, is that a closer number for you and you are prepared to look at the stats?

Bonds now has a batting average of....wait for it... .288. What? it didn't change, you said with 1000 more at bats it would be better. Hey his OBP did jump a point from .408 to .409. I was generous on strikeouts though he ended up with 1112.

Who cares about fielding percentage, first base is where they put the guys who aren't athletic enough to play elsewhere. And seriously, you just only talk about the big 3 offensive stats. 1B is so much easier to have a higher fielding percentage, because you have 3x and more chances, and you rarely have to move or scoop a ball most of the time. Currently, Pujols has 3x as many chances in half the career length.

Bonds, had it ALL. He ran wait for it...(do you want me to even bother showing you SB comparisons?), he could field with grace before he bulked up as well as throw. Pujols, slow, not a great arm, ever.

Paul S
05-24-2013, 03:27 PM
Not totally fair since Bonds best seasons was after his first 12

Strange isn't it?

Exactly my first thought

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 03:32 PM
Don't know how it's a laughing matter. Yes, Pujols probably had one of the, if not the greatest first 10 years in Major League history, I'll admit that. But having 1,000 more AB's can change the overall average a decent amount, that's 1 1/2-2yrs worth...I just can't place him as high as other guys because of his defensive value.

Who cares about fielding percentage, first base is where they put the guys who aren't athletic enough to play elsewhere. And seriously, you just only talk about the big 3 offensive stats, your ignorance towards these two clearly show. 1B is so much easier to have a higher fielding percentage, because you have 3+x more chances, and you rarely have to move or scoop a ball most of the time. Currently, Pujols has 3x as many chances in half the career length.

Bonds, had it ALL. He ran wait for it...(do you want me to even bother showing you SB comparisons?), he could field with grace before he bulked up as well as throw. Pujols, slow, not a great arm, ever.

Who cares about fielding? You do. You brought it up. Also I didn't compare Fielding to Fielding I compared their overall rank to position. I know bonds Stole bases. So you are saying that because no other stat helps him you are going to look at the one stat that helps your case? I guess stealing bases makes up for the times he didn't get on base because he was fanning the pitcher. I am not saying Bonds wasn't good, but there is no way that he could be considered the greatest as was the claim.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 03:32 PM
Not totally fair since Bonds best seasons was after his first 12

Strange isn't it?

;)

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 03:38 PM
Who cares about fielding? You do. You brought it up. Also I didn't compare Fielding to Fielding I compared their overall rank to position. I know bonds Stole bases. So you are saying that because no other stat helps him you are going to look at the one stat that helps your case? I guess stealing bases makes up for the times he didn't get on base because he was fanning the pitcher. I am not saying Bonds wasn't good, but there is no way that he could be considered the greatest as was the claim.

They are different positions, again look at the reasoning on fielding percentage, it's significantly easier to have a higher fielding percentage playing first. Let's see where your beloved Pujols ends up on the all-time charts. I could give two shits about first 10 years. If you looked at my prior post I said I admit Pujols probably had the greatest first 10 years in history, but that doesn't mean anything if he doesn't do it the next 10.

I don't need to dig stats when it's all said and done. Bonds will have the better numbers, across the board other than hits, most likely RBI's and obviously Doubles. Bonds got on base more than Pujols, so what if he k's, had he not k'ed as much, I can't even fathom what his stats would look like.

Look, I love Pujols, I'm so thankful I've gotten to see him play a few times, and he will go down as one of the best of all-time without a doubt (steroid implications or not). Two tremendous players, and Pujols' stretch seems done unfortunately. Yes, 10-11 amazing special seasons, but I want to see what he does over 20 years.

timber63401
05-24-2013, 03:47 PM
Not totally fair since Bonds best seasons was after his first 12

Strange isn't it?

Not strange he was a juice head but if you look at Pujols body type when he came in then the next 5 years or so he was noticably thicker now if you look at him hes thinner again. Has he used? Your guess is as good as mine but you cant count anyone out from that era.

bn2cardz
05-24-2013, 03:56 PM
They are different positions, again look at the reasoning on fielding percentage, it's significantly easier to have a higher fielding percentage playing first. Let's see where your beloved Pujols ends up on the all-time charts. I could give two shits about first 10 years. If you looked at my prior post I said I admit Pujols probably had the greatest first 10 years in history, but that doesn't mean anything if he doesn't do it the next 10.

I don't need to dig stats when it's all said and done. Bonds will have the better numbers, across the board other than hits, most likely RBI's and obviously Doubles. Bonds got on base more than Pujols, so what if he k's, had he not k'ed as much, I can't even fathom what his stats would look like.

Look, I love Pujols, I'm so thankful I've gotten to see him play a few times, and he will go down as one of the best of all-time without a doubt (steroid implications or not). Two tremendous players, and Pujols' stretch seems done unfortunately. Yes, 10-11 amazing special seasons, but I want to see what he does over 20 years.
Please stop, you aren't paying attention and stopping for a second to really look at the stats. I said Position to Position their ranks for Fielding pct. I didn't compare Fielding pct. For their position I showed their ranks overall. Bonds for all OF (so I am only comparing him to others in the same position) he is 50th. Pujols among 1st basemen is at 47. So for their position they rank around the same.

Yet again you are just trying to find anything to help support the steroid user as being the better of the two. Ok so I have been told the first 12 weren't good years to compare Bonds and Pujols and I can't use Bonds last three years. So lets look at 93-04 for Bonds. Bonds still is the SO leader and and fails to have the higher BA. At this point Bonds does excel at the other stats, but that is also when we know he was juicing, so for him to only be slightly better in the best stretch of 12 years while on roids then the player I chose to compare him to off I don't know why there really is an argument on who was better.

I know Pujols looks to be going down hill but that is only based off just over 1 season of being off. I really don't know if it will be the end, but if he ends his career now I will still believe that he was the best player I had a chance to see.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 04:09 PM
Please stop, you aren't paying attention and stopping for a second to really look at the stats. I said Position to Position their ranks for Fielding pct. I didn't compare Fielding pct. For their position I showed their ranks overall. Bonds for all OF (so I am only comparing him to others in the same position) he is 50th. Pujols among 1st basemen is at 47. So for their position they rank around the same.

Yet again you are just trying to find anything to help support the steroid user as being the better of the two. Ok so I have been told the first 12 weren't good years to compare Bonds and Pujols and I can't use Bonds last three years. So lets look at 93-04 for Bonds. Bonds still is the SO leader and and fails to have the higher BA. At this point Bonds does excel at the other stats, but that is also when we know he was juicing, so for him to only be slightly better in the best stretch of 12 years while on roids then the player I chose to compare him to off I don't know why there really is an argument on who was better.

I know Pujols looks to be going down hill but that is only based off just over 1 season of being off. I really don't know if it will be the end, but if he ends his career now I will still believe that he was the best player I had a chance to see.

Yet again, you are comparing players whom have played different positions, so it's tough to guage, but fielding percentage aside, Bonds was still the suprerior defensive player? Support for a steroid user, please. When did he EVER test positive...not once. It's ALL speculation. Bonds never failed one drug test, Bonds had never got caught using steroids. So please, enough with this steroid crap.

And with that comparison, Bonds destroys Pujols in all but two categories with 1,500 less AB's. In fact, it's pretty much downright embarassing by how much better he was in that span.

Cheers

Brent

Eric72
05-24-2013, 04:27 PM
Take the top 10 players of 2013 put them in a time machine to play the top 10 players of 1913 and the old timers get clobbered. Just like if you did the same with football or basketball players.

I'm not so sure about this. In football and basketball, yes. Baseball, though, would be a bit different.

- The ball used in 1913 wasn't nearly as lively as the ones in use today. This would almost certainly be a factor that favors the old timers.

- The ball was also changed with much less frequency. Modern hitters are accustomed to a new, gleaming white ball to hit at. Not as significant; however, would still tilt things towards the 1913 players.

- Good pitching beats good hitting, and there were some pretty solid hurlers back in 1913. Hard to imagine WaJo and company getting "clobbered," especially playing under conditions they were used to.

- Most modern players would be on the 15-day DL after getting spiked by Cobb. OK, not a game changer...however...thought it was a valid point. The old timers were tough as leather. Today's athlete...maybe not so much.

Just my two cents. Personally, I think it it would be a close matchup.

Respectfully,

Eric

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 04:33 PM
I'm not so sure about this. In football and basketball, yes. Baseball, though, would be a bit different.

- The ball used in 1913 wasn't nearly as lively as the ones in use today. This would almost certainly be a factor that favors the old timers.

- The ball was also changed with much less frequency. Modern hitters are accustomed to a new, gleaming white ball to hit at. Not as significant; however, would still tilt things towards the 1913 players.

- Good pitching beats good hitting, and there were some pretty solid hurlers back in 1913. Hard to imagine WaJo and company getting "clobbered," especially playing under conditions they were used to.

- Most modern players would be on the 15-day DL after getting spiked by Cobb. OK, not a game changer...however...thought it was a valid point. The old timers were tough as leather. Today's athlete...maybe not so much.

Just my two cents. Personally, I think it it would be a close matchup.

Respectfully,

Eric

It is a very tough comparison to judge, that's for sure. Modern players are stronger, faster, better equipment, etc. Pre-War or Deadball players have bad baseballs and equipment like you stated, larger fields, but not necessarily as strong or fast. I can say one thing, it sure as hell would be a fun game to watch the best of the best in pre-war vs post-war in a Best of 7. Wow.

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 04:48 PM
Support for a steroid user, please. When did he EVER test positive...not once. It's ALL speculation. Bonds never failed one drug test, Bonds had never got caught using steroids. So please, enough with this steroid crap.

This just in, "Earth Not Flat!"

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 04:50 PM
Support for a steroid user, please. When did he EVER test positive...not once. It's ALL speculation. Bonds never failed one drug test, Bonds had never got caught using steroids. So please, enough with this steroid crap.

This just in, "Earth Not Flat!"

Show me the proof, show me his positive test results, please. Humor me

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 05:01 PM
Show me the proof, show me his positive test results, please. Humor me

I have none and you know it. However to deny that "that" is by far the most plausible explanation for what he was able to accomplish at an advanced age is in a word "myopic."

Look you can admire what he achieved if you like, it was phenomenal. However it like the accomplishments of many of his brethren will always have a stench associated with it.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 05:03 PM
I have none and you know it. However to deny that "that" is by far the most plausible explanation for what he was able to accomplish at an advanced age is in a word "myopic."

Look you can admire what he achieved if you like, it was phenomenal. However it like the accomplishments of many of his brethren will always have a stench associated with it.

Hey, I agree. But it's all speculaction, whether he's superhuman or got help, I will go with innocent until proven guilty

Lordstan
05-24-2013, 07:27 PM
Guys,
Sorry, but you're not going to convince Brent about Bonds. He is his favorite player, I think.
We had a very similar debate early last year in a thread "players you refuse to collect." At that time, we were debating Bonds to Ruth. If he feels Barry is flat out better than Ruth, he is surely going to think he is better than Pujols.

If you are interested and want to read the exchange, here is the link.
He begins his debate with other around post 43 and I chimed in around post 69.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=150153&highlight=ruth&page=5

BTW, I like Brent. We just disagree significantly on this topic.

Mark

Lordstan
05-24-2013, 07:34 PM
Hmmm.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=229&pictureid=11407

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=229&pictureid=11406

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=229&pictureid=11405

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 07:36 PM
Guys,
Sorry, but you're not going to convince Brent about Bonds. He is his favorite player, I think.
We had a very similar debate early last year in a thread "players you refuse to collect." At that time, we were debating Bonds to Ruth. If he feels Barry is flat out better than Ruth, he is surely going to think he is better than Pujols.

If you are interested and want to read the exchange, here is the link.
He begins his debate with other around post 43 and I chimed in around post 69.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=150153&highlight=ruth&page=5

BTW, I like Brent. We just disagree significantly on this topic.

Mark

Thanks for the kind words Mark, I do appreciate it. I really enjoy our civil debates we have in this forum (for the most part), it's a great learning experience and I love reading others views on their favorite players, very fun, and I respect everyone's views, hard to say you can't respect someone's opinion.

Bonds is by far nowhere near close to my favorite player. I think he's an absolute dick, but I truly respect and love his abilities as a player. Mauer is by far my favorite, and no one is close to second, and may be Puckett. What MN kid didn't love Puck growing up :), gosh we miss him.

And as we speak, we are getting no hit :( but my boy Mauer will break it :)

And he did!!!

HRBAKER
05-24-2013, 07:37 PM
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. He obviously admires Barry (as a player). That's ok.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 07:47 PM
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. He obviously admires Barry (as a player). That's ok.

Well said, thank you. That's what great about baseball is we can have these debates. You necessarily can't with the other big 3 sports

Paul S
05-24-2013, 07:49 PM
The WAS runoff between Clemens and Jeter.

And the difference of WAS and was NOT for a single player. Ripken Jr, for instance.

KCRfan1
05-24-2013, 08:52 PM
I think there would have been some substantial innuendo about by this point. So for now I'll say No. (I do have to say, over 500 doubles at this point is incredible for this day and age).
No one thought when Jeter was first coming into the league that he would ever have this sort of a career either. Haven't heard a word about his juicing either.

In this skeptical day and age, maybe sometimes someone is just having a great career?

Jeter was a first round selection, 6th pick, and expected to produce. The power numbers put up by Albert are legendary. You are comparing apples and oranges with the two. They are completely different hitters.

frankh8147
05-24-2013, 09:07 PM
Interesting thread..out of curiosity, did you leave Greg Maddux and Ken Griffey Jr. off this list because everyone already knows they were some of the greatest of all time?
As per the list- Bonds and Clemens stand out- if they hadn't cheated, I would consider them two of the best ever but now i'm honestly too torn to even know what to think of them.

KCRfan1
05-24-2013, 09:09 PM
Roids or not, you still have to hit the ball. A lot of players may have juiced during that era, yet did not produce outrageous stats and numbers. Loved watching McGwire in the HR contest at Fenway, Bonds taking swings at the plate during games, Giambi as well. I just wish I could mute Chris Berman during McGwire's AB in Fenway and listen to the sound of the bat and the crowd.

HOF Auto Rookies
05-24-2013, 09:36 PM
Roids or not, you still have to hit the ball. A lot of players may have juiced during that era, yet did not produce outrageous stats and numbers. Loved watching McGwire in the HR contest at Fenway, Bonds taking swings at the plate during games, Giambi as well. I just wish I could mute Chris Berman during McGwire's AB in Fenway and listen to the sound of the bat and the crowd.

Going off that, I would just love to be in am empty park and hear it thundering

Paul S
05-24-2013, 10:20 PM
Jeter was a first round selection, 6th pick, and expected to produce. The power numbers put up by Albert are legendary. You are comparing apples and oranges with the two. They are completely different hitters.

Lou, not comparing them against their mutual attributes. But for every first round pick who is expected to produce there are so many other first round or early picks who we have never heard from. So much for expectations. One never knows how they will blossom. That was my point. Ya just can't really predict until they get to the big leagues.

KCRfan1
05-24-2013, 10:31 PM
Derek Jeter is a great one. Growing up, I hated the Yankees because my Royals would play them in the playoffs and lose. Looking back as I have gotten older, I have admiration for The Boss and those Yankee teams from the mid to late 70's. I wish the Royals owner had the drive and passion to win like George did. David Glass has deep pockets, there is no excuse.

EvilKing00
05-25-2013, 04:45 AM
Not totally fair since Bonds best seasons was after his first 12

Strange isn't it?

Strange but a lot of players have their, better years later on. Almost like a light gets switched on, or the game slows down. Bonds was using, Just like almost everyone else of his time, but as he got older he also learned to hit better. Here are a few examples of players who got better as some years went bye. (off the top of my head)

RA dickey, Jose Bautista, Encarnacion, Randy Johnson, Roy Halladay, Carlos Gomez, AJ Pierzynski had his best season last year at age 35 and hes a catcher, blew away his notmal stat lines. Paul Konerko had his best 2 season at 34 and 35.

Im sure you guys could name ever more players.

EvilKing00
05-25-2013, 04:53 AM
Interesting thread..out of curiosity, did you leave Greg Maddux and Ken Griffey Jr. off this list because everyone already knows they were some of the greatest of all time?
As per the list- Bonds and Clemens stand out- if they hadn't cheated, I would consider them two of the best ever but now i'm honestly too torn to even know what to think of them.

Well this thread was about perception.

The votes came in for the roid guys to show most know they were top in their class.

The main point being, most voted against shefield BUT for Jeter.

Shefields numbers are awesome though perceived in a dab light and jeters numbers don't reflect a top player in any season but people think hes one of the best.

Funny a few months ago, people calling up mike francessa saying Jeter was better that Joe D and Mickey, what a joke, lol just funny how people view certain players.

Jeter and Molitor have the exact same numbers, very good players HOF players, but not in the conversation of the best of their time and certainly not the best of all time.

Yep Griffey and Maddux were also the best of their time, but The vote was more of an experiment in perception.