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Cardboard Junkie
05-07-2013, 04:09 PM
If money were no object: Do you think it would be possible to reproduce vintage cards exactly.....say t206s or 33Goudeys or 52Topps....right from reproducing the cardboard stock to replicating the inks, printing process, and cutting? It seems feasible to me...after all if the technology existed 100 or 60 or 75 years ago...it should exist today (or at least the ability to manufacture the same technologies today). What do you think? Remember cost is no object.

brookdodger55
05-07-2013, 04:48 PM
My ?,how do we know that it's not already happening, with all the high end prewar to the 60's. could it already be happening. Just a thought. I think it could be done easily (my sources In the printing business)
Mike

Cardboard Junkie
05-07-2013, 05:08 PM
Well, I just got off the phone with a professional paper conservator and he said "the hardest part would be reproducing the cardboard stock" he also added "that with unlimited funds it could very easily be done." and "no amount of testing or dating could detect a difference." Yikes!:eek:

frankh8147
05-07-2013, 05:19 PM
I'm going to go with man over the machine on this one- I think a good vintage collector will always be able to tell if a vintage card is real or not, at least for the major card series' (52' Topps, 33' goudey, T206 etc). For the more obscure card sets- collectors can beat this though networking-if some individuals specialize in certain card sets-maybe they will have a future job in the hobby. That's just my take on this but I really think there will always be individuals who can tell the difference.

4815162342
05-08-2013, 10:52 AM
I think it would be hard to reproduce that musty smell of old cardboard. :)

Bocabirdman
05-08-2013, 03:00 PM
I think it would be hard to reproduce that musty smell of old cardboard. :)

Not if you use OLD cardboard...

steve B
05-08-2013, 09:46 PM
With unlimited resources it would be easy.

I don't think the paper would be all that hard for some series. T206 is just a high rag content cardstock coated on one side.

I actually got out some stuff and checked. I thought comic backing boards were very close to right, but they're .024 of an inch and the one T206 I measured was .012. Next trip to the art store I'll see what they have that's like that.
And no, the backing boards don't react to the blacklight.

Stuff like Goudeys would be a bit harder. The cardboard is still available, but you'd have to do some accelerated aging to duplicate how the cardboard breaks down over time.

Steve B

Runscott
05-09-2013, 04:45 PM
You couldn't reproduce a color lithograph card exactly, simply because of the dot patterns - the art was created by hand from photos, we don't have any original art, and even when we have real photo examples the art result would be obviously different under a loupe. I do think we could come so close that you'd have to use a loupe, but with a card like Wagner, you'd use much more than a loupe. Unless, of course, you simply put it in a slab - then it becomes real...like Pinocchio.

Of course, if the Cincinnati twins got hold of a close reprint like this, it would become a million-dollar 'variation'.

Cardboard Junkie
05-09-2013, 05:01 PM
You couldn't reproduce a color lithograph card exactly, simply because of the dot patterns - the art was created by hand from photos, we don't have any original art, and even when we have real photo examples the art result would be obviously different under a loupe. I do think we could come so close that you'd have to use a loupe, but with a card like Wagner, you'd use much more than a loupe. Unless, of course, you simply put it in a slab - then it becomes real...like Pinocchio.

Of course, if the Cincinnati twins got hold of a close reprint like this, it would become a million-dollar 'variation'.
Aloha Scott, I'm not sure I understand. Why couldn't each "dot" and "pattern of dots" be reproduced exactly? Why would one need the original "art"? couldn't an original card suffice? I'm talking, (hypothetically of course) of duplicating them on a microscopic level for each and every card in the set. Dave. ps money no object.

Runscott
05-09-2013, 08:22 PM
Aloha Scott, I'm not sure I understand. Why couldn't each "dot" and "pattern of dots" be reproduced exactly? Why would one need the original "art"? couldn't an original card suffice? I'm talking, (hypothetically of course) of duplicating them on a microscopic level for each and every card in the set. Dave. ps money no object.

Hi Dave, Find a T206 that has the dots in the background and look at them under a loupe. If you look at two examples of the same card, that dot pattern will still match up perfectly, subject to registration and amount of ink applied. Once you've done that, I think you'll agree with me. But maybe not. Steve might know a way of duplicating the patterns, but I know that the artists who did this were highly-skilled, since they had to mix different colors of dots to come up with a good image.

If you looked at the 1880's lithographs, you'll see what I'm talking about even moreso. I tend to talk 'T206' because that's an issue I know more about.

Cardboard Junkie
05-09-2013, 08:38 PM
Hi again Scott, I just don't get what you are saying. I have almost 2,400 t206s and have looked at everyone with a loupe. Have seen many thousands more with a loupe. I have many different power loupes and even a microscope to zero in on paper fibers and edges. T206s (as you know) are comprised of areas of printing dots (matrix) and solid colors (fields). Each "dot" could be replicated. Each solid color could be duplicated. Inks wouldn't be a problem because all the chemicals and pigments can be reproduced. It would be painstaking and tedious work, but completely possible. It would be hard to do but theoretically it COULD be done. Unless I'm just not understanding what you are saying. Dave. ps why do you think the original art work would be necessary?

Runscott
05-10-2013, 09:05 PM
I must not be explaining myself well - sorry. Typing from an iPhone but I will find a few good examples and post in a few days.

travrosty
05-11-2013, 04:34 PM
it could be done with money NO object, billions spent on perfecting the technique, then i believe it could be done without anyone detecting it to be counterfeit. UNLESS, money was no object to the people in charge of detecting the counterfeit, then it could be possible to spend billions on a system/technique for detecting it as well. it would be a race.

case in point, north korean 100 dollar bill counterfeit notes. they have gotten so good at it, that even banks in the united states can't tell they are counterfeit, but the u.s. gov't itself has found a couple of very minute flaws that give them away, but they are scary good, and that is counterfeiting currency that has been designed to specifically thwart counterfeiting, not old cards with basically very little in the way of anti-counterfeiting measures other than the fact that you have to find old paper and ink, or a way of simulating old paper and ink.

in short, if the u.s. govt wanted to do it, and put endless resources, it could be done, we dug the panama canal, created hoover dam, put man on the moon, printing old cards??? i think so.

Cardboard Junkie
05-11-2013, 05:42 PM
it could be done with money NO object, billions spent on perfecting the technique, then i believe it could be done without anyone detecting it to be counterfeit. UNLESS, money was no object to the people in charge of detecting the counterfeit, then it could be possible to spend billions on a system/technique for detecting it as well. it would be a race.

case in point, north korean 100 dollar bill counterfeit notes. they have gotten so good at it, that even banks in the united states can't tell they are counterfeit, but the u.s. gov't itself has found a couple of very minute flaws that give them away, but they are scary good, and that is counterfeiting currency that has been designed to specifically thwart counterfeiting, not old cards with basically very little in the way of anti-counterfeiting measures other than the fact that you have to find old paper and ink, or a way of simulating old paper and ink.

in short, if the u.s. govt wanted to do it, and put endless resources, it could be done, we dug the panama canal, created hoover dam, put man on the moon, printing old cards??? i think so.

I pretty much agree!:)

EvilKing00
05-11-2013, 06:24 PM
yes it can be done BUT, I think the only way to coppy it exactly would be if you have the old printing machine, the same ink and the same cardboard. If you have enough money im sure you can find those 3 things.

The ink would be the hardest thing to come bye IMO

Cardboard Junkie
05-11-2013, 06:33 PM
I wanted to add, I think it would take tens of millions of dollars maybe even hundreds of millions.........but not a billion.

Runscott
05-11-2013, 08:16 PM
With early lithographs, it's like asking if a rare painting could be copied if money were no object. The problem would be that you could compare actual brush-strokes between the 'real' painting and the counterfeit. Same with dots in the lithographs. Dots are a bit easier to duplicate, but they are also easier to compare, and thus to detect flaws. I've louped a ton of lithograph cards and I'm certain about this, but I understand that my explanation isn't coming through well.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cardboard Junkie
05-11-2013, 08:48 PM
With respect Scott, an original painting and a printed litho are 2 completely different animals. David.

Runscott
05-12-2013, 05:51 PM
With respect Scott, an original painting and a printed litho are 2 completely different animals. David.

For the purpose of my example, they are not.

Again, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm really getting nothing out of this by arguing with you about it - I know these cards and I'm certain about what I'm saying. If you don't believe me, that's absolutely fine - you won't be the first. Rather than add unnecessary angst to a nice day, I'll respectfully exit this thread, and I sincerely hope that someone tells you what you already know and would like to hear repeated.