1967 Panini Boxing- Valida Back: Image Needed

[Box-Cards]

Hi. My first post ever, but I've been following all the site's boxing collectors/experts' posts for so long that it feels like I already know most of you. I had been looking for a decent quality, large and clear enough to be fully readable, image of the Valida back from Panini's 1967 Campioni Dello Sport. I've spent so much time researching Google-Bing-Ebay-and searching other internet sites that I'm exhausted--so I figured it was about time I used this quest's opportunity to not only come with my plea, but to start joining in henceforth. Every image I had run across thus far has been too low resolution to make everything in the text out, or too small a PIC to zoom up properly, or simply completely out of focus in the first place.

In return for anybody helping me out there, I'll do my best to become more active in the future as a casual poster myself. I'm sure I have much I could share with everyone and anyone in general whose passion includes global boxing card collecting, usually rare background knowledge on global issues, and certain aspects of their history. I look forward to joining in finally wherever what I do know or have collected fits in.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Just out of curiosity, what do you need such a high res scan for?

[Box-Cards]

Here's the story; A bit of further self-introduction necessarily precedes it...

I could use the scan on a project I first started about 2-decades ago, in 1992, while I was intensely researching international boxing cards in general and with emphasis on Jack Dempsey and Ali's issues in particular.

In 2000, I self-published an introduction booklet to this project and brought copies up with me to Canastota's IBHOF annual inductions that year, to its Collector Show. Since then, as life and time allowed, I've been working on a formal version book based on this project to be professionally published upon final completion; a "Muhammad Ali Global Boxing Card Review."

The Review book is something I was encouraged by the Krause back in 1996 to do back--after submitting to them a similar Illustrated Global Review book manuscript completed on Jack Dempsey's cards. Dempsey's work was rejected ("the boxing niche is too small compared to the other main sports for us to consider JD economically"). But in closing Krause offered: "Should you do one like this on Ali instead, he has cross-over appeal and we'd like to see it and certainly be interested." So Dempsey's project was put on a back-burner and I dove body and soul with Ali my primary project ever since.

My Ali Global Review's full chapters are nearly about finished, chapters divided by decades starting with the 1960s; all text intros and each decade's database checklists properly in its place; (most every) checklist card's face and obverse images illustrated--or a placeholder in some cases holding the spot in the finished layout. Right recently I finished the last chapter on the 2010's, and I'm currently starting at the front again proof reading and looking to fill in whatever place-holders needed filling; an almost final stage.

The only quality scan or image I'm lacking in the first chapter's layout for the 1960s is: The Valida variation back of the 1967 Panini #451... then its on to the rest of the chapters.

Myself, I have certain Clay/Ali cards in my collection from discoveries made back in the 1990s during the height of my international research; ones that I believe to my knowledge that others here in the US have never seen. These are being saved for their revealing in the Ali Global Card Review. However, from reading posts here I take it that there are some passionate collectors of Jack Dempsey's issues; just as have always been myself.

If get some needed help in completing my final go-through stage of this Ali project, I will in return be happy to post images of various Dempsey issues that it could be others have not seen or knew about as well. Also, because I am now at a place where I've discovered that my true personal passion is in serving as an 'historian' of global boxing cards rather than needing to own every card out there or that I happen to possess, any cards I post for others to see or should list I will be happy to consider parting with, so long as I have their images and background information secured.

A quick example: I've been reading a lot of buzz over Tyson's '86 Panini now that grading companies are putting them in slabs. England's Evan Jones became my good friend in the early 1990s; I even shared my Collector Show tables at the 1995 IBHOF Inductions with him; his first trip here. We did a lot of trading back then. In a '96 trade I received 5-sets each of 5 different Panini's boxing subset series that Evan had put together for me virgin from packaged wrappers. Yesterday, I pulled the binder I'd stuck these in way back then for the first time since '96 and, yes: there's 5-full sets of the '86 series each with a virgin Tyson that had never been handled except for Evan pulling them from from packs and sending them to me; then into a binder.

The Swede 1920-1930's cards of Dempsey? In 1997, I spent the next 4 years researching the entire region of Sweden-Holland & Denmark. I note I have 3 (2") binders full of that region's early boxing issues. A number of their cards, including Dempsey and other star issues, have never been seen or known of in our US hobby. I will enjoy posting their images soon.

So, that's the long answer for what I need the high res-scan for...
Thanks for taking the interest to ask.

[Exhibitman]

Neat; I'd love to see the research. The global reach of Ali in particular is amazing. Do you have info on these?

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/1975%20Phillipines%20TEK%20Ali-Frazier%203.jpg

[Box-Cards]

Hi Adam:

I'd been hoping to consult with you personally and even directly hook up specifically with you potentially on this project for some time now. That actually was the basis for my quick email to you a while ago with "something I'd like to table." Given that you emailed back, I apologize for not having had the opportunity to follow-up privately with exact details sooner. I was hoping you'd see my post and perhaps be among those you might respond. I have huge respect for everything you've done and continue to do in the boxing card sector. I greatly enjoy those LuLu-effort books you've authored.

So said, perhaps we could take this aspect of that enjoyable "thing of ours" further from here--even inviting interested others regarding this Ali Global Review project prior to its final version being formalized and taken to print. Whomever could contribute anything not already represented in the Review would, of course, receive full credit in the Review's Acknowledgment section. To boot, and depending on degrees, I'd be so greatly appreciative that I'd consider compensating whatever assistance by in return sending them various boxing cards they may not possess. I realize I have so many after all these years that its time I started doing something that others may enjoy and appreciate as much as I did collecting them...a lot of dupes, too.

To get to your TEK question:

Wish I could say I knew more about them, but can't. I never saw or heard of their existence until you'd posted them on your website.

However, I have a friend in Hawaii who knows a good deal about Japanese and Philippine boxing card issues. After I first saw the TEKs posted, he was contacted in hopes he could expand on their background. He couldn't--never seen nor heard of them before himself. Nevertheless, he stated he has taken it on as a mission to find out more and see if any other subsequent cards or their images from the same series can be located with his personal contacts. Haven't heard back from him yet but that is my best lead to discover more. If and when I do hear from him on it, I'll let you know.

Last thing: Any quick tips for a 'novice Net54 poster' as to the easiest process and steps in order to start posting some interesting images myself? I haven't had (read: taken) the time to search 54's FAQs first to read up on it where it is covered somewhere, as I should have already... I know.

Good to hear from you; look forward to doing so again, and on the project.

Dan in Rhode Island

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Dan, PM me your email address and I can send you a clean Valida scan later today.

[Box-Cards]

Thank you, Arthur; PM sent.

Further, Adam or whomever: Never mind about the 'novice poster' request concerning posting images. I made my own sandwich for myself instead of bothering others, and looked up the process as I should have in the first place. Seems easy enough, so next goes one Dempsey fans should enjoy.

[Box-Cards]

Once I can pull out certain albums stashed away there will be more to come.
Right now here is what was immediately handy:

circa 1927 Cuba: Chocolate “Baguer” - Habana #35
circa 1922 Spain: Evaristo Juncosa Panella - Barcelona #6
UK: Beagles’ Postcards 156. L
?: Boxing Silk - Dempsey
1935: Ray-O-Print (Magic Photo “Rail Card”) - Envelope/Negative/Card
2007: Linear Heavyweight Champions #9
1930-32: Sweden: Rose Marie #55- Max Schmeling
1932: Sweden: Forsberg #3- Max Schmeling

[Jerry G]

Thanks for sharing, Daniel and welcome to the forum! Really looking forward to other results of your exhaustive research.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Good stuff Dan. That Baguer is a very tough card.

The Juncosa set is, at the earliest, 1923. The Criqui card mentions his fight against Kilbane in 1923. The set can also be found with a different title (Boxe y Jiu-Jitsu) and in a purple tint, but the fronts all mirror themselves. I believe the ByJJ set also contains cards of unnamed martial artists in varying poses.

[Box-Cards]

Thanks for sharing, Daniel and welcome to the forum! Really looking forward to other results of your exhaustive research.
Thank you, Jerry. I don't know why I waited this long to join in but I look forward to sharing whatever I have, may know, or may have learned from great other boxing guys over the years. It has motivated me to haul out my binders from the bookcases lining my small man-cave computer room cave and actually start enjoying everything anew again. Oce I get a better hang from experimenting of what way to best get better image resolution acceptance when submitting to the forum, I'll be posting more.

[Box-Cards]

Good stuff Dan. That Baguer is a very tough card.

The Juncosa set is, at the earliest, 1923. The Criqui card mentions his fight against Kilbane in 1923. The set can also be found with a different title (Boxe y Jiu-Jitsu) and in a purple tint, but the fronts all mirror themselves. I believe the ByJJ set also contains cards of unnamed martial artists in varying poses.
Appreciate the background on the Juncosa set, Arthur. I don't possess any other cards from the set but the Dempsey which speaks about his meet with carpentier on its obverse, and only mentions that 1921 date anywhere. The 1922 date was mentioned to me by Evan Jones in 1998 and I've had it databased as such ever since. I'm glad guys like you are around to help set the record straight.

[Exhibitman]

Well, here's a few more fun ones for you, Dan:

Shindana Games Ali:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/websize/Shindana%20Ali.JPG

Israeli issue:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards/websize/1960s%20Israeli%20Clay.jpg

[Box-Cards]

Thanks for the thought Adam. I've got the Afro-American History-Mystery issue covered, added the one from Israel too after you posted it in your website-connected image library--but have that asterisked for now (along with certain others in the master checklist so designated) where its only weakness in being included appears to be some lack of supportive documentation that it absolutely is a "card" rather than possibly being a "paper" collectible. How and in what manner it was originally issued, or by whom and through what venue, are lacking at this time it seems. I don't go by what size or stock something happens to be; globally cards are and have been produced that are judged by the methods and standards of the country in which they originate, not in any way necessarily related to our own country's geocentric standards of what something has to be like in order to be considered a true "card." When you are in Rome, you do as the Romans do; when you wish to explore what boxing 'card issues' had been produced in a different country or global region, you ought to take the time to first research and understand that country's own accepted standards for what they consider to be a 'card' leaving your own American hobby definitions and center-of-the-world prejudices behind. If a Roman normally considers something a card and others part of the Roman culture have always done so too, then its a Roman Card and we should accept it as being so. If Swedish nationals themselves had an established past history of freeing a Hemmets #23 Clay from its 4-in-1 sheet and collecting it as a single (just as they were accustomed to doing in many other unrelated but similar cases going back to the 1940s & '50s), then the Swedish #23 Clay as a single is a legitimate Swedish single-card, too, regardless of the arguments to the contrary by various American collectors. So, I'm not ruling out the Israel paper issue of Clay as not being a card either. It'd be nice to at least encounter some other example of another personality matching the Clay, better yet to know how it was issued and whether or not persons IN Israel themselves actually considered it a "card" or a "paper collectible." Wish we had more to go on.

We here, too, have had a couple of Ali card issues that go completely against the grain of what stock, type of printing, and manner of distribution is usually expected according to some of those argumentative 'standards':

There's one from the inside back-cover of the old "Fight Fever" US boxing magazine. It was absolutely meant to be cut out and collected as a card and said as much. Another came from the outside back-cover of an older issue of "CrawDaddy" US magazine. That magazine also directed that the Ali card should be cut out and saved as a "wallet-photo card." So there you go...

Just pulled the Ali card cuts mentioned above out, and I spoke on one without checking it first. It wasn't a 'Fight Fever' boxing magazine that had it; it was a 'Fight Beat' issue. I'm going to post its scan along with the CraDaddy card cut and some others...

[Exhibitman]

Dan, the Israeli Ali is from a set of sports and entertainment personalities that were meant to be glued into an album. Here are some of the others:

Chaim Topol

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/large/Israeli%20cards%20Chaim%20Topol.JPG

Mick Jagger:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/1960s%20Israeli%20Jagger.jpg

Mordecai Shpigler [soccer]

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Israeli%20cards%20Mordecai%20Shpigler.JPG

Pele

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Israeli%20cards%20Pele.JPG

Yaakov Hodorov [soccer]

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Israeli%20cards%20Jacob%20Hudroab.JPG

Esther Schachamarov [track]

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/miscellaneous4/websize/Israeli%20cards%20Schachamarov.JPG

[Box-Cards]

Nice to clear it up that it was meant to go in an album, thus it can further be properly designated Master Checklist wise as being a categorized 'album card.'

Thanks, Adam. Perhaps you can provide a bit more, please: While you mention considering it to be from the late 1960s, no exact year within that decade being obviously not yet available--and if you possess or have access to info regarding the album itself, does it credit anywhere who or what company produced this series or issued the album? Did it mention what the title of the album itself was, or give a name for the specific series related to its cards?

This type background information is what the Review is striving to include.


Here's the Ali 'Fight Beat' and "CrawDaddy"...

Plus two (pre-Hemmets) 4-in-1 panel cards produced in Sweden right after Marciano won the title from Walcott. The backs of all panel cards within the series are one giant ad; different ads on different panels. Marciano and Walcott are the only two boxers in this particular series. Swedish nationals habitually freed the personalities and collected them in personal albums as singles. I was offered such a personal album of singles, first, but it didn't include the boxers and mainly contained strictly Swedes, organized not by their card face numbers but by professions; actors, singers, starlets, etc., none of whom I recognized. After some time and much pleading, the two 4-in-1 panels with the boxers were acquired. They were difficult to locate even in Sweden and, try as I may, I never was able to acquire duplicates.

I know modern, contemporary boxing card issues aren't a lot of people's cup of tea, but here are some examples that are tough: Unreleased KAYO test-cards of Hearns and Tyson to start. Neither Tommy or Mike would accept the offered terms allowing them to be included by Kayo in the actual set. Their test-cards were supposed to have all been destroyed.

Also, UK's Futura produced a beautiful, high quality but sparse inclusions set of "Boxing Legends." They had considered coming out afterward with a series-two based on the first set and produced (100) 9-card test-sheets with 5-boxers for that potential second set along with 4-footballers potentially for two other different upcoming Futura productions. The "Legends" follow-up set never materialized. The five boxers were: Tyson, Tunney, Dick Tiger, Teo Stevenson, and Jimmy Wilde.

[Box-Cards]

Others to come after a break from scanning and getting back to the Review...

circa 1930s-early: Sweden, "Idrottsbladets-Bildgalleri" Dempsey
Rose Marie #65 : Sweden, Dempsey
Romeo Y Juleta #28 : Dempsey
Aguilitas #785: Dempsey
circa 1931: Sweden, "Dreck Mazetti" (green tint) Dempsey
circa 1932: Sweden, "Dreck Mazetti" (b/w) Dempsey - var.
1961: Sweden, "Kalendarium-Bild #309/61 Ingo Johansson & Dempsey
1955: Sweden, "Fantomen" (The Phantom Comics)
"Ringens Mastare" (Ring Masters) #6 Dempsey
Other Ring Masters: Louis; Walcott, from amongst the singles collection

I have some full comic issues with their back-cover cards intact; 2 shown. The series ran for a number of years; its checklist is quite deep. Some singles I've seen existed with 2-holes punched along the left side border by their original collector, obviously to put them in some binder--but nothing points to any official binder having been produced specifically for this series.

As illustrated by the Louis, below, due to the way they were originally laid out then printed in the comic, singles could not possibly be uniformly cut in regards to their width. Overall sizes vary in general due to individual person's hand cuttings.

In 1955 issues, there was a strip inclusion called "Knockout Charlie" whose main character's looks were a close "knockoff" of our own Joe Palooka. Later in 1956 years' issues "Charlie" must have literally gotten "Knocked Out" and he was replaced with a "Joe Palooka" strip...exactly our all-American Joe, but with Swedish language text balloons.

I'll look for the file document that has the entire 'Ring Masters' checklist and post it for those who may be interested.

[Jerry G]

... I had been looking for a decent quality, large and clear enough to be fully readable, image of the Valida back from Panini's 1967 Campioni Dello Sport. I've spent so much time researching Google-Bing-Ebay-and searching other internet sites that I'm exhausted--so I figured it was about time I used this quest's opportunity to not only come with my plea, but to start joining in henceforth. Every image I had run across thus far has been too low resolution to make everything in the text out, or too small a PIC to zoom up properly, or simply completely out of focus in the first place...

This might not be as large and clear as you need, but it might help. I also have a 1968/69 with a Valida back if you need it.

Edit: Just noticed that Arthur was going to send you an example, but I'll leave this here as others might be curious.

[Box-Cards]

Thanks Jerry. Got the one emailed from Arthur then worked on it awhile...came out beautiful. The other thing about the Ali Global Card Review that should be striking is that every card's front and back image is individually taken into Photoshop and worked on for as long as it took to make it a relative graphic representation of a PSA-10-type.

The time this took going through the issues from the 1960s and '70s was lost track of long ago. It really wasn't until the 1990s that the process sped up and I got a break.

[Exhibitman]

Dan, I don't have any of that info. Sorry. The data on Israeli cards is scant at best. I have specimens from three different issues and they are all very tough to pin down.

I am basing dating on the Ali on the careers of some of the athletes involved in the issue. Hodorov was done in 1964 but was a major team coach in 1969after which he went into non-sports activities. Shpigler's first big venue was the 1968 Olympics and he was a national team fixture into the 1970s. Pele left international play in 1971, retired from Santos in 1974, then went to NYC for a few years. Shachamorov became an Israeli star in 1969 in the Maccabee Games, then had an international career. She got married in 1973 and hyphenated her name with her husband's name "Roth". My best guesstimate is that the cards are somewhere in the years from 1969-1972.

[Box-Cards]

Understandable, Adam, we are fortunate just to have you share such an obscure issue with us and then provide what you know about the others in the series. Confirming it was an album card, you helped remove the asterisk next to the listing of the issue itself, which was great. Based on the info you know about the others, a likely year of '1969 to early '70s' is being Review entered with asterisk; its general designation that further documentation is required.

While here for anyone with an idea, does somebody know the exact year of the below Mexican album card's issue: #121 "Asses del Ring" Cassius Clay?

Had it recorded but somehow got deleted by accident; now can't remember.

[Box-Cards]

Hi Arthur:

Just to let you know by quick note that I got tied up both with the project and aspects of family life, therefore haven't yet posted the package I intended for you as mentioned previously. I'm taking a personal break tomorrow and, by then or the next day, I'll be getting that off...with my best wishes.

I know: "It's not necessary"--but that's besides the point. Whatever I do I do because it brings me personal enjoyment, satisfaction, and--as my 1/2 Canadian Indian Grandmother on my mother's side always taught me: If you go up to another to shake his hand and expect them to remember you, and especially if you ask for something from them, before you ask for anything or expect them to remember you--you give something of yourself first... or immediately in return. Not so immediate here, but coming nonetheless soon.

Dan

[Exhibitman]

Reviving this thread. A Swedish seller just ran a bunch of the cards covered here that closed today. Some strong prices.