What the future holds in the autograph industry

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Well, with all of these issues with forgers and TPA's certifying forgeries, I'm really at a cross-road with what to do about my collection. I know most of all of my autographs are authentic, not based off the flip but based off the experts on this board and in doing my own research.

Obviously, few questions pop up in my mind like, 'what is going to be the future of the autograph industry?' Am I still going to be able to enjoy this before shit hits the fan (if it already hasn't)? Will my cards still maintain a premium value? Every one of my cards has gone up in price, but with what is happening with all the forgeries, can they maintain that? Most of my collection is compromised of players whom no one would waste time in forging, but when I want to expand to collect a signed Ruth Goudey, or others, can I trust them?

I'm in no dire need of money to have a fire sale, I just would love to have an open discussion on what your opinions and views are on this, because I honestly don't know which way to lean, and all this crap happening truly scares me for being in the hobby I love so much.

[Leon]

The hobby might evolve into more collectors collecting autographs on things that are most likely real ie...legal documents, handwritten letters with solid provenance, checks (most would be good) etc.....

For me, that is the only way I would collect them. Good discussion question.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

The hobby might evolve into more collectors collecting autographs on things that are most likely real ie...legal documents, handwritten letters with solid provenance, checks (most would be good) etc.....

For me, that is the only way I would collect them. Good discussion question.

I was thinking of putting this on the main board, but I agree. My passion is with the card unfortunately, but like you said, that is probably the 'safest' route.

[drc]

Also, there are players other than Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb to collect. Lesser players, non-baseball people, can be just as fun to collect.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Also, there are players other than Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb to collect. Lesser players, non-baseball people, can be just as fun to collect.

I know, but as my collection expands, then I get into the higher class players. I strictly only go after HOF Autographed 'rookie cards', and Joe Mauer. But even with the other guys, still can easily have forgeries.

[glchen]

Autographs will always be there and will always be in demand, especially since many collectors/fans consider them a way to get "closer to the game" and the players. I think in the future, people will insist on a TPA for the more expensive autos, even more so than now. I realize that even the TPAs mess up, so collectors will probably try to educate themselves as much as possible. Probably the going phrase will be "Buy the auto, not the LOA."

[39special]

Also, there are players other than Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb to collect. Lesser players, non-baseball people, can be just as fun to collect.

I totally agree.Thats what I collect.I have a limited budget,so I go for lower price HOFers and lesser known players.I also do alot of TTM's.Mostly guys that are retired.This is my hobby,and I enjoy it.

[chaddurbin]

I totally agree.Thats what I collect.I have a limited budget,so I go for lower price HOFers and lesser known players.I also do alot of TTM's.Mostly guys that are retired.This is my hobby,and I enjoy it.

yes, step away from HoS and the hysteria. there's no indictment forthcoming on how rea/jsa/psa is colluding (LOL). if CC is still in business then the fbi has better things to do.

if you're not comfortable with an auto, don't buy it! the enjoyment from my collection and hobby doesn't rise and wane with the increase/decrease in value. i'm just as happy holding a signed '89 gregg jefferies as a ty cobb check.

[sylbry]

This will all pass. Take a step back, don't read any autograph related websites for a little and you will feel better.

You like what you collect and you enjoy your collection. The negative feels are coming from outside sources. Tune them out and you will be fine.

What's currently going on with HoS and many threads on this forum is similar to listening to Glen Beck. Listen long enough and you will believe the sky is falling. Turn him off for a little and you will realize the sky never fell nor is it about to.

Not saying there isn't a problem in the hobby. There most certainly is. But it isn't your problem. If you want to fight the good fight like many on this board are doing, more power to you. But if all it does is lead you to leave the hobby then you may want to reconsider.

[Mr. Zipper]

When you wade into the deep end of the pool, the risks increase exponentially.

I don't have a deep end of the pool budget, so I keep myself satisfied with my Mantles and Koufax's and a Ty Cobb check and a Maris plus my Mariano Rivera collection. I do my homework and network with knowledgeable collectors and dealers. I have a high level of confidence my stuff is good.

Collect what you like and what you are comfortable with and you'll be just fine.

:)

[travrosty]

I Would sell it now before the COA's from TPA's become just TP.

[Scott Garner]

I Would sell it now before the COA's from TPA's become just TP.

:p;)

[T206Collector]

One of the nice things about collecting signed T206s is that most of what is out there was signed by non-HOFers, and can be traced through provenance to two major collections that were amassed in the 1960s and 70s. Like I said on the Babe Ruth train wreck thread (version 1), if the forgers were winning, you'd see at least one authenticated Matty signed T206, and way more Cobbs than are out there.

Collect what you like, and be prepared to defend the signature in the event you or your heirs try to sell in the post-Spence/DNA era, which will eventually come -- sooner or later.

[sylbry]

I Would sell it now before the COA's from TPA's become just TP.

Genuine autographs will always be genuine, no matter what happens to the TPA that attached a letter to it.

[Deertick]

if the forgers were winning, you'd see at least one authenticated Matty signed T206, and way more Cobbs than are out there.

Yet there are plenty of bad postcards, balls, and photos. I'm pretty sure the potential profit margin, as well as overall demand and saleability, on a generic Christmas card exceeds that of a signed T206. Especially if there are few (or no) known examples, making it harder to slip through the cracks. That being said, don't count out the prospect of one showing up. If there is a money to be made, they will build it.

I started a thread about a week ago of a cache of autographs I had run across. The number of bad 'common' players was unnerving. Ask yourself this: Who would forge Terry Francona, John Kruk, or Larry Bowa? How about John Daly or Eric Lindros? If they are fair game, all bets are off on anyone.

While I don't accept the lack of accountability of the TPA's, at this point they definitely serve as a much needed filter. Despite the protestations of some to the contrary, they get it right most of the time. At least in baseball.

[Runscott]

Despite the protestations of some to the contrary, they get it right most of the time. At least in baseball.

I haven't heard anyone say that the TPA's get it wrong most of the time. The complaint is that getting it right "most of the time" is not good enough. If "most of the time" is good enough for you, you are definitely in the majority, so I'm not knocking you. Just saying - I'd like to see them do better, and I'm sure they could.

[shelly]

II think that if no one listens to people on this thread You are missing a lot. If you allow yourself to be told that only a certain people can tell what is authentic or not is beyond crap.
You guys listend to Barry Halper for how many years and look what he did to you. You believed in Mastro and look how he lied to you. How much money do you think he swindled people out of . I did the same dame thing and it was easy because someone belived a forensic expert You had the whole East Coast Fogery ring that sold so much more than we did They came close to making more money on a weekend than the west coast people did in a year. Cets from B& J , Madison and Howards. It took a guy like Kenny to sue them to stop them.
When this hobby started if had 2 Ruths in an auction that was a big deal. To even see a Christy Mathewson was und heard of. Know how many pure white balls to you see how many Mathewsons, Cobbs, The list goes on and on and on. There was e even a player who had no know autograph . That was autghentic.
The forgers get better and better and once they fool the authenticator its all over ,you authentic one it never stops .If you dont do your own research and listen to people that do not have a vested interest just watch happens. These few gods will walk away with you money and wont think a thing about it
Not only the forgers win but so do the TPA's it becomes there world is all about the money and you can believe me with out each other they all fold up.
If you cant trust someone who has been on the side none of you want be to on. Then fifty years of dealing with the worst and dealing the best has taught me a lot. On that Rea thread I said the one thing I learned quickly was be very leert. Listen to your heart and you head. Rread the stories and make up your own mind. Most importand before I would spend on red cent ask questions and then ask more. If the story starts to change walk far far away. Last but not least dont ever listen to somone that is only trying to make you angry or made. Se what he has done in hobby and who has any respect for him.


Spelling suck grammr worse but you guys no that.

As they said in NYPD Blue. Be careful our there

[shelly]

A re write will be up in the morning.

[Scott Garner]

I haven't heard anyone say that the TPA's get it wrong most of the time. The complaint is that getting it right "most of the time" is not good enough. If "most of the time" is good enough for you, you are definitely in the majority, so I'm not knocking you. Just saying - I'd like to see them do better, and I'm sure they could.

+1

[barrysloate]

I've never collected autographs, and never had much of an interest in them. But I do read most of the autograph threads on this board. I imagine people will continue collecting autographs, and would guess that those collectors will enjoy what they are doing. That said, I've never seen a more depressing hobby or state of affairs than what transpires on Net54.

The amount of infighting among collectors and dealers is a little hard to believe. It seems like you guys really don't like each other. And the number of collectors who get ripped off buying bad stuff is truly alarming. This end of the hobby has a simply dreadful image. It looks like the place all the scammers and con men go to make a living.

If you want to see a healthy future, something has to be done. If it reaches the point where nobody can agree on whether or not a Babe Ruth signature is good or bad, then I would say the future does not look all that bright. The number of new collectors entering will grow smaller.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

A lot of good points. But a post really got me thinking from the Gary Cooper thread:

I said it before and I believe it to be true...they make a lot of money off of the forgers. If there were no forgery there would be no need for TPA's.

And I can see this being true, and it's disgusting...

[Runscott]

A lot of good points. But a post really got me thinking from the Gary Cooper thread:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide
I said it before and I believe it to be true...they make a lot of money off of the forgers. If there were no forgery there would be no need for TPA's.

And I can see this being true, and it's disgusting...

Brent, I'm missing you and Dan's point. If there were no forgers, everything would be authentic, so of course you wouldn't need anyone (TPA) to identify something as being a forgery. And since TPA's are businesses, they have to make money. To me it's all about how they run their business. Even if you assume they are completely honest, they aren't doing the job we are paying them to do.

I spoke with Ben yesterday and gave him a detailed example from my personal experience, where I am absolutely positive that a TPA authenticated forgeries, and when I asked them to take a second look they said they did, but they absolutely did not. Why? Because the time it would take to actually examine the autographs would kill their profit. That's what I find disgusting, and that's why their LOA's are absolutely worthless to me.

[Runscott]

Barry - good post. I apologize for my part in the mess you describe - I'm quite upset at myself for some of the stuff I've written in the various Ruth threads. If the autograph forum were not part of Net54 I would not be a participant at all;still, I promise in the future to try my best to fight my natural inclinations to react to it, which only compounds the problem.

The other problem is that I have never been able to resist reading it - it's really quite fun. And I have met some very good and interesting people there.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Brent, I'm missing you and Dan's point. If there were no forgers, everything would be authentic, so of course you wouldn't need anyone (TPA) to identify something as being a forgery. And since TPA's are businesses, they have to make money. To me it's all about how they run their business. Even if you assume they are completely honest, they aren't doing the job we are paying them to do.

I spoke with Ben yesterday and gave him a detailed example from my personal experience, where I am absolutely positive that a TPA authenticated forgeries, and when I asked them to take a second look they said they did, but they absolutely did not. Why? Because the time it would take to actually examine the autographs would kill their profit. That's what I find disgusting, and that's why their LOA's are absolutely worthless to me.

I think what Dan was stating that sometimes there comes an item that the TPA knows it's a forgery, and certify it because of the rarity of the specific item and potential historical significance. Like the PSA 8 Wagner, everyone knew it was trimmed, and that was the very first card I believe PSA certified, so it was huge in regards to marketing PSA.

I hope that helped explain our stance a little.

[mschwade]

I think what Dan was stating that sometimes there comes an item that the TPA knows it's a forgery, and certify it because of the rarity of the specific item and potential historical significance. Like the PSA 8 Wagner, everyone knew it was trimmed, and that was the very first card I believe PSA certified, so it was huge in regards to marketing PSA.

I hope that helped explain our stance a little.

Fitting because it sounds like the Steroid Era of baseball to me... Not thinking about the long term hit to their character when the truth comes out, only that they were the big thing when they played.

[Runscott]

I think what Dan was stating that sometimes there comes an item that the TPA knows it's a forgery, and certify it because of the rarity of the specific item and potential historical significance. Like the PSA 8 Wagner, everyone knew it was trimmed, and that was the very first card I believe PSA certified, so it was huge in regards to marketing PSA.

I hope that helped explain our stance a little.

Gotcha - thanks. I know TPA's holder trimmed cards, and based on what others (with better eyeballs than me) have said, if accidental it's through employee ineptitude, and if an experienced employee did it, it's criminal. But I don't agree with you that the TPA's intentionally holder high-$ forged autographs. I believe it's simply ineptitude.

edited to add - the above is in regard to PSA and JSA - certainly many of the other TPA's are fraudulent.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Gotcha - thanks. I know TPA's holder trimmed cards, and based on what others (with better eyeballs than me) have said, if accidental it's through employee ineptitude, and if an experienced employee did it, it's criminal. But I don't agree with you that the TPA's intentionally holder high-$ forged autographs. I believe it's simply ineptitude.

edited to add - the above is in regard to PSA and JSA - certainly many of the other TPA's are fraudulent.

I agree, it's certainly not as common, and ISA and all the other crap slab reprints. I guess I miss-spoke saying intentionally certify, but it just seems like it with how many Ruth's have been withdrawn for HA

[mr2686]

I believe the future of the hobby depends on what you're in it for. If you're looking for your own personal collection to keep and enjoy, you're probably going to be looking to purchase from the well known dealers (Stinson, Simon, Corcoran, Keating, etc etc) and you'll be happy knowing that you have a high probability of having authentic autographs that you didn't have to see signed. If, however, you're looking to be able to flip an autograph and want the average Joe to feel comfortable buying your "product" at a higher price, then you'll probably look for the alphabet authenticators and you'll be less likely to have an authentic autograph (not all, but more will fall through the cracks due to high volume, lack of knowledge/exemplars and negligence).
For me, the future is going back to the beginning. I started out collecting hof balls and having hof'ers signed my hof book. I branched out to famous teams and famous players and deceased hof'ers, but I'm finishing up a lot of those projects and feel with the state of the hobby that I'll be going back to getting signed balls of living hof'ers. I have a backlog of players to get over the last few years and of course there's always new ones each year, so it will still be fun.
While a lot of these threads have been going on the last several days, I was reminded how much fun this hobby is by two events. The first was that I started working on getting a lot of my stuff matted and framed (about 12 new ones done so far and another 10 or so in que for the next week or so...by the way, get yourself a good frame shop that can do your matting and then wait for some good sales at any chain frame shop and you can get a lot of your stuff up on the walls, looking good, for pretty cheap). The actual process of getting your stuff matted/framed and deciding what would look good together as displayed is so enjoyable, and of course sitting back and looking at the result is priceless.
The second thing was an unsilicited copy of the SCD that showed up in the mail (3 years after discontinuing my subscription, I guess they want me back). Anyway, the magazine is smaller in size but thicker than in recent years which reminded me of the 80's when it was the size of the old Sporting News and about an inch think. Man those days were fun...getting the new issue on a Thursday and spending the next several hours looking for things for your collection. A lot of old hof'ers that would sign at shows that you could mail order (some didn't seem to come out to the West Coast so that was really cool). Fun days indeed.
Anyway, I've blathered long enough, but before I go, I have a Babe Ruth for sale...:eek::D:eek:

[Runscott]

I agree, it's certainly not as common, and ISA and all the other crap slab reprints. I guess I miss-spoke saying intentionally certify, but it just seems like it with how many Ruth's have been withdrawn for HA

A lot of people do believe that the slabbing is malicious, and with the TPA's refusing to address their image problem (although I doubt they see it as a problem), believing it is intentional is reasonable. All the TPA's have to do is state that it's ineptitude and that they will try to hire better authenticators.

I was digging around, looking for an example of a particular Babe Ruth style signature, and found this site. Others have probably already discussed it:

http://www.angelfire.com/biz5/puru777/ruthpiece.htm

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I believe the future of the hobby depends on what you're in it for. If you're looking for your own personal collection to keep and enjoy, you're probably going to be looking to purchase from the well known dealers (Stinson, Simon, Corcoran, Keating, etc etc) and you'll be happy knowing that you have a high probability of having authentic autographs that you didn't have to see signed. If, however, you're looking to be able to flip an autograph and want the average Joe to feel comfortable buying your "product" at a higher price, then you'll probably look for the alphabet authenticators and you'll be less likely to have an authentic autograph (not all, but more will fall through the cracks due to high volume, lack of knowledge/exemplars and negligence).
For me, the future is going back to the beginning. I started out collecting hof balls and having hof'ers signed my hof book. I branched out to famous teams and famous players and deceased hof'ers, but I'm finishing up a lot of those projects and feel with the state of the hobby that I'll be going back to getting signed balls of living hof'ers. I have a backlog of players to get over the last few years and of course there's always new ones each year, so it will still be fun.
While a lot of these threads have been going on the last several days, I was reminded how much fun this hobby is by two events. The first was that I started working on getting a lot of my stuff matted and framed (about 12 new ones done so far and another 10 or so in que for the next week or so...by the way, get yourself a good frame shop that can do your matting and then wait for some good sales at any chain frame shop and you can get a lot of your stuff up on the walls, looking good, for pretty cheap). The actual process of getting your stuff matted/framed and deciding what would look good together as displayed is so enjoyable, and of course sitting back and looking at the result is priceless.
The second thing was an unsilicited copy of the SCD that showed up in the mail (3 years after discontinuing my subscription, I guess they want me back). Anyway, the magazine is smaller in size but thicker than in recent years which reminded me of the 80's when it was the size of the old Sporting News and about an inch think. Man those days were fun...getting the new issue on a Thursday and spending the next several hours looking for things for your collection. A lot of old hof'ers that would sign at shows that you could mail order (some didn't seem to come out to the West Coast so that was really cool). Fun days indeed.
Anyway, I've blathered long enough, but before I go, I have a Babe Ruth for sale...:eek::D:eek:

I do a majority of my purchases on the bay, but I always research first or ask for opinions. I'm not in it for the money, just strictly collecting, and at times I may sell to upgrade etc. I do a lot of trading/buying/selling with collectors here which I highly prefer over over avenues.

I mainly do cards, but have a couple of really cool pieces I have framed. Back in the '80's, Donruss inserted puzzle pieces into packs of cards. I completed all of the puzzles from the players (like Musial, Spahn, Snider, Stargell etc.) and glued them to a mat and got them signed and framed, so they look pretty cool.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I have a Babe Ruth for sale...:eek::D:eek:

Is it on a card :cool:

[HOF Auto Rookies]

A lot of people do believe that the slabbing is malicious, and with the TPA's refusing to address their image problem (although I doubt they see it as a problem), believing it is intentional is reasonable. All the TPA's have to do is state that it's ineptitude and that they will try to hire better authenticators.

I was digging around, looking for an example of a particular Babe Ruth style signature, and found this site. Others have probably already discussed it:

http://www.angelfire.com/biz5/puru777/ruthpiece.htm

Well said, Scott. I wish there could be more interaction with the graders when you submit, like getting a reason for the grade or pass/fail (I understand it would cost more). I have submitted a card to get numerically graded, and thought it came half a grade or two grades less than what it should have, and I called and had them re-look it (no bump :() and the customer service rep explained to me what they told her and put a sticky note on the slab with an arrow pointing to the issue.

I feel like reasoning behind the madness would help out so much more with many of these issues.

But I really do appreciate everyone's posts and thoughts so far, it's very insightful in helping me with my decision.

[mr2686]

Brent, I too loved those puzzles as well as those HOF Heroes cards from Donruss. Great things to have signed.

[shelly]

Not only the forgers win but so do the TPA's it becomes there world is all about the money and you can believe me with out each other they all fold up. I said that on the other page.
The next thing is if you start to believe the feel good stories that are poping all over the place with no real back ground but the consigner says. You will also be in for a world of hurt. I
I don't mind being ignored I do mind my ideas being steped on.:D

[mighty bombjack]

Back in the '80's, Donruss inserted puzzle pieces into packs of cards. I completed all of the puzzles from the players (like Musial, Spahn, Snider, Stargell etc.) and glued them to a mat and got them signed and framed, so they look pretty cool.

I loved those, but don't think I've seen any signed. Got photos?

[shelly]

I loved those, but don't think I've seen any signed. Got photos?
I think this is why people dont learn or care to learn anything.
What does this have to do with the subject.
This is a perfect way of showing your concern. :mad:

[slidekellyslide]

I think what Dan was stating that sometimes there comes an item that the TPA knows it's a forgery, and certify it because of the rarity of the specific item and potential historical significance. Like the PSA 8 Wagner, everyone knew it was trimmed, and that was the very first card I believe PSA certified, so it was huge in regards to marketing PSA.

I hope that helped explain our stance a little.

I was thinking more along the lines of the symbiotic relationship they have...how hard do they really want to rid the hobby of forgery since they basically make their living off of it. It makes me ponder the secretive nature of this business.... I don't believe that JSA or PSA intentionally holder bad autos though. Obviously there are TPA's that are the go to guys for the forgers and these autos usually end up at CC or in your local "estate" auction.

[Runscott]

Please don't yell at me for going off-topic, but all this discussion of bad autographs, blind collectors and unscrupulous TPA's and forgers made me think of this:

http://www.shore11.org/files/u16/lemmings_off_cliff.jpg

[shelly]

I was thinking more along the lines of the symbiotic relationship they have...how hard do they really want to rid the hobby of forgery since they basically make their living off of it. It makes me ponder the secretive nature of this business.... I don't believe that JSA or PSA intentionally holder bad autos though. Obviously there are TPA's that are the go to guys for the forgers and these autos usually end up at CC or in your local "estate" auction.

No on is saying on purpose. I am saying once a forger can get them to authenticate his items they are his for life. There are people on here that no the story of he miniture autograh Rurth balls. That well know authenticator has been chaseing those ball to be the authenticator to protect himself. People like Richard, Jim, Ron and few others laugh when we see it happen. It is hard to go back and admit a mistake. I think the difference between the go to guys is price. Garbage is Garbage.

[packs]

I know I'm having a great time looking for pieces that I like. JSA and PSA don't hinder me from doing that. I couldn't care less about the "future" as I am only interested in the past.

[Frozen in Time]

I've never collected autographs, and never had much of an interest in them. But I do read most of the autograph threads on this board. I imagine people will continue collecting autographs, and would guess that those collectors will enjoy what they are doing. That said, I've never seen a more depressing hobby or state of affairs than what transpires on Net54.

The amount of infighting among collectors and dealers is a little hard to believe. It seems like you guys really don't like each other. And the number of collectors who get ripped off buying bad stuff is truly alarming. This end of the hobby has a simply dreadful image. It looks like the place all the scammers and con men go to make a living.

If you want to see a healthy future, something has to be done. If it reaches the point where nobody can agree on whether or not a Babe Ruth signature is good or bad, then I would say the future does not look all that bright. The number of new collectors entering will grow smaller.



As someone who does not really collect autographs, I tend to agree with what Barry has stated. I have strayed from the memorabilia threads recently and have already voiced my opinion on the amount of infighting, personal attacks and typical lack of real evidence (a few exceptions) that have characterized most of the latest Ruth-related threads. This contrasts with the much more civil and educational content of many of the threads (mostly vintage photos) that I previously participated in.

Whereas I, and I assume many of you, would love to have an authentic Ruth autograph in my/your collection, that will simply never be the case for me because I would never be certain it was authentic. I take Jim's warning concerning the abilities of the master forgers very seriously.

It seems to me that the only way to avoid the subjectiveness and human error associated with the determination of authenticity both for collectors and TPG companies (here I'm primarily talking about ball players that are deceased and played in the early decades of the 1900's) is some type of "scientific" analysis.

For example, with all of the tools now available it would seem to me that testing for the relative age (degradation) of the item signed (paper, photo, ball) and comparison with similar properties of the writing medium (ink) should be able to unequivocally determine if the auto was put down much later than the item signed. I would assume that forensic departments in the FBI/CIA may already have and applied this type of technology - so it may already be available.

Whatever that technology is/ will be, the main point is that some reliable method of quantitatively testing (non-invasive) the appropriate parameters seems to me the only way that one can avoid the totally subjective nature and shortcomings inherent in all authentication paradigms.

[slidekellyslide]

No on is saying on purpose. I am saying once a forger can get them to authenticate his items they are his for life. There are people on here that no the story of he miniture autograh Rurth balls. That well know authenticator has been chaseing those ball to be the authenticator to protect himself. People like Richard, Jim, Ron and few others laugh when we see it happen. It is hard to go back and admit a mistake. I think the difference between the go to guys is price. Garbage is Garbage.

I agree Shelly, I was just addressing something that was brought up in this thread that I wrote in another thread. Don't want people to misunderstand my words.

[Runscott]

I know I'm having a great time looking for pieces that I like. JSA and PSA don't hinder me from doing that. I couldn't care less about the "future" as I am only interested in the past.

They may be indirectly hindering you. Jim S has said that he thinks forgers are getting better and better, to the point that they can create forgeries that are indistinguishable from the real deal. If their quality has at least improved a great deal, that may be because the legitimate TPA's (JSA and PSA) forced them to get better.

I don't know for sure, as I wasn't collecting autographs back then, but to me it's reasonable to believe that before JSA and PSA, people HAD to buy from honest, good sellers, and/or if they were willing to study legitimate exemplars and become experts themselves (as opposed to blindly relying on TPA's and AH's), their chances of purchasing a real Ruth were much better than they are today, since the forgeries weren't as good. I hope that makes sense, but perhaps I'm completely incorrect.

[shelly]

They may be indirectly hindering you. Jim S has said that he thinks forgers are getting better and better, to the point that they can create forgeries that are indistinguishable from the real deal. If their quality has at least improved a great deal, that may be because the legitimate TPA's (JSA and PSA) forced them to get better.

I don't know for sure, as I wasn't collecting autographs back then, but to me it's reasonable to believe that before JSA and PSA, people HAD to buy from honest, good sellers, and/or if they were willing to study legitimate exemplars and become experts themselves (as opposed to blindly relying on TPA's and AH's), their chances of purchasing a real Ruth were much better than they are today, since the forgeries weren't as good. I hope that makes sense, but perhaps I'm completely incorrect.

Hello, that is what I have been trying to say. The are getting better than the authenticators. Once that happens your sunk. I think the advice of getting better equipment and doing data testing might help. If they keep on doing like they are there percentage of real vs fake will drop below fifty percent. When that happens you can flip and coin and save yourself a lot of money.

[Runscott]

Hello, that is what I have been trying to say. The are getting better than the authenticators. Once that happens your sunk.

I think it's worse than that, and it's the crux of why we have so many fights on this forum - it's true that forgers are passing a very high % of bad Ruths and Gehrigs (etc.) right by the two legitimate TPA's, but what's worse is that when we bring these up for discussion on this forum, where we have experts who are better than those that the TPA's use, some of our guys give the bad autographs the green light :( And because of the massive egos, disagreement=fight.

Take that '700 HR' Ruth ticket - many say it's good, many say it's not. But the same guy who started off by saying he's 100% positive it's bad, is the only expert (maybe there are two - also a non-board member?) here who thinks the green-ink '27 Yankees ball is good. It's really mind-boggling how much disagreement there is right here.

[shelly]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1126284]I think it's worse than that, and it's the crux of why we have so many fights on this forum - it's true that forgers are passing a very high % of bad Ruths and Gehrigs (etc.) right by the two legitimate TPA's, but what's worse is that when we bring these up for discussion on this forum, where we have experts who are better than those that the TPA's use, some of our guys give the bad autographs the green light :( And because of the massive egos, disagreement=fight.

Take that '700 HR' Ruth ticket - many say it's good, many say it's not. But the same guy who started off by saying he's 100% positive it's bad, is the only expert (maybe there are two - also a non-board member?) here who thinks the green-ink '27 Yankees ball is good. It's really mind-boggling how much disagreement there is right here.[/QUO

Right or wrong that was his opinion.
I like who the new authenticators. The consigner. The consigner motto"I am not in the business but I know its authentic trust me"

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I think some type of forensic testing would be great to see, obviously non-invasive. But, with that the prices to get certification would sky-rocket.

[shelly]

If the item is worth it there are places that can do things at a resonable price. The good thing is as this testing is perfected the cheaper it will become. I only say this because look at DNA testing. 5 years ago it would cost a fortune and take for ever. Now for 99 you can get your results in a few days.
Even if this where to happen do you think for one second the auction houses would pay for it. Not a chance in hell.

[slidekellyslide]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1126284]I think it's worse than that, and it's the crux of why we have so many fights on this forum - it's true that forgers are passing a very high % of bad Ruths and Gehrigs (etc.) right by the two legitimate TPA's, but what's worse is that when we bring these up for discussion on this forum, where we have experts who are better than those that the TPA's use, some of our guys give the bad autographs the green light :( And because of the massive egos, disagreement=fight.

Take that '700 HR' Ruth ticket - many say it's good, many say it's not. But the same guy who started off by saying he's 100% positive it's bad, is the only expert (maybe there are two - also a non-board member?) here who thinks the green-ink '27 Yankees ball is good. It's really mind-boggling how much disagreement there is right here.[/QUO

Right or wrong that was his opinion.
I like the new authenticators. The consigner. I am not in the business but it is real the end.

When someone says it's "100% bad" is that still an opinion?

[Frozen in Time]

I think some type of forensic testing would be great to see, obviously non-invasive. But, with that the prices to get certification would sky-rocket.

That's probably true, but in the case of Ruth, Gehrig, etc. I believe it would be worth it if the forensic testing approached 100% accuracy. Moreover if any technology-based authentication became a standard for the Hobby and major auction houses, all the existing forgeries would eventually be identified as such.

[shelly]

That's probably true, but in the case of Ruth, Gehrig, etc. I believe it would be worth it if the forensic testing approached 100% accuracy. Moreover if any technology-based authentication became a standard for the Hobby and major auction houses, all the existing forgeries would eventually be identified as such.

I just got off the phone with a major forensic lab. They said at this time the cost would not be worth it. It would have to be something the U.S. government would have to be interested in. So until someone comes up with a new mouse trap we are at square one.:mad:

[HOF Auto Rookies]

That's probably true, but in the case of Ruth, Gehrig, etc. I believe it would be worth it if the forensic testing approached 100% accuracy. Moreover if any technology-based authentication became a standard for the Hobby and major auction houses, all the existing forgeries would eventually be identified as such.

I would not mind at all if I sent in a Ruth (if I had one), to take a small piece of the ink and material to do testing. I wonder if anyone on this board that knows of any certain devices that could potentially be used. I know there are some scans to see if anything was drawn over something else.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I just got off the phone with a major forensic lab. They said at this time the cost would not be worth it. It would have to be something the U.S. government would have to be interested in. So until someone comes up with a new mouse trap we are at square one.:mad:

Interesting, there has to be equipment that a TPA could use that wouldn't nearly cost the costs I am thinking.

[packs]

Doesn't everyone pretty much only buy from reputable sources when we're talking about a high dollar signature? If we're talking about going back to a system where collectors are only buying from reputable dealers, I feel like that is already where we are when it comes to high dollar items.

Yes it is true that there are times these reputable dealers (auctions houses) get things wrong. But isn't that going to be true regardless of whose opinion is attached to an item? Won't there always be mistakes? I'm just not clear as to what you're after. It seems like people are upset that there's no accountability when it comes to TPA's getting it wrong. But what else can someone do but offer their best opinion and refund you if they're wrong?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Doesn't everyone pretty much only buy from reputable sources when we're talking about a high dollar signature? If we're talking about going back to a system where collectors are only buying from reputable dealers, I feel like that is already where we are when it comes to high dollar items.

Yes it is true that there are times these reputable dealers (auctions houses) get things wrong. But isn't that going to be true regardless of whose opinion is attached to an item? Won't there always be mistakes? I'm just not clear as to what you're after. It seems like people are upset that there's no accountability when it coems to TPA's getting it wrong. But what else can someone do but offer their best opinion and refund you if they're wrong?

I would think no. It seems as if a lot of peole who purchase the high dollar items get them for the conversation aspect of the piece, not for a specific collecting purpose (ego). So with that, they may not have the general knowledge to pursue a reputable dealer, and will go thru an auction house for the purchase with a TPA cert, IMO.

[Forever Young]

I would think no. It seems as if a lot of peole who purchase the high dollar items get them for the conversation aspect of the piece, not for a specific collecting purpose (ego). So with that, they may not have the general knowledge to pursue a reputable dealer, and will go thru an auction house for the purchase with a TPA cert, IMO.

Interested what the difference is btwn a reputable "dealer" and a reputable "auction house" is. They are both out to make money on you.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Interested what the difference is btwn a reputable "dealer" and a reputable "auction house" is. They are both out to make money on you.

Seems like the ones with less knowledge feel more comfortable with an auction house because of the image, marketing, return policies and publicity etc etc etc. With the dealers, they may not think they are an expert in the autograph authentications (unlike us that know from being on the board that we have very reputable dealers in all areas of autograph certification).

[Frozen in Time]

I just got off the phone with a major forensic lab. They said at this time the cost would not be worth it. It would have to be something the U.S. government would have to be interested in. So until someone comes up with a new mouse trap we are at square one.:mad:



Shelly, what exactly did you ask the forensic lab? I'm not a chemist but I believe there are already several non-invasive tests that could provide a quantitative profile of the elemental composition of surfaces such as paper, leather etc. as well as media such as ink. If any of those percentages in a given profile changed with age (say > 50 years), then some standards could be established.

Not really sure what the final forensic method would be nor what it would cost but what I am suggesting is that I am confident such technology could be developed. With regards to the eventual cost, I am assuming that it would only take one company with such technology to provide a standard for testing the authenticity of the type of autographs we have been discussing. I believe the demand would be high as well as the cost but perhaps not prohibitive.

Again, the main point of my speculation is that a forensically-based approach is the only foolproof way, in many cases, to rule out forgeries.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Shelly, what exactly did you ask the forensic lab? I'm not a chemist but I believe there are already several non-invasive tests that could provide a quantitative profile of the elemental composition of surfaces such as paper, leather etc. as well as media such as ink. If any of those percentages in a given profile changed with age (say > 50 years), then some standards could be established.

Not really sure what the final forensic method would be nor what it would cost but what I am suggesting is that I am confident such technology could be developed. With regards to the eventual cost, I am assuming that it would only take one company with such technology to provide a standard for testing the authenticity of the type of autographs we have been discussing. I believe the demand would be high as well as the cost but perhaps not prohibitive.

Again, the main point of my speculation is that a forensically-based approach is the only foolproof way, in many cases, to rule out forgeries.

I would have to agree with you, there has to be certain methods to get a answer at 'low' costs.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I'm sorry I forgot to post my full name, thanks for the reminder Leon

Brent Niederman

[shelly]

Shelly, what exactly did you ask the forensic lab? I'm not a chemist but I believe there are already several non-invasive tests that could provide a quantitative profile of the elemental composition of surfaces such as paper, leather etc. as well as media such as ink. If any of those percentages in a given profile changed with age (say > 50 years), then some standards could be established.

Not really sure what the final forensic method would be nor what it would cost but what I am suggesting is that I am confident such technology could be developed. With regards to the eventual cost, I am assuming that it would only take one company with such technology to provide a standard for testing the authenticity of the type of autographs we have been discussing. I believe the demand would be high as well as the cost but perhaps not prohibitive.

Again, the main point of my speculation is that a forensically-based approach is the only foolproof way, in many cases, to rule out forgeries.

I asked if the could tell us when the ball might have been signed. They said they could tell by the ink and pen nothing else. I then asked about carbon dateing they said the would not be good because it could be 200 years off. I was trying to find out they could tell me if a ball was signed in the last forty years and they said no., Here is there number(909) 793-3820 I wll call the FBI lab on Monday.

[7nohitter]

The future does not hold much without Jim Stinson. Congratulations to the few, meandering rubes who couldn't get heir heads out of their behinds and ran off one of the greatest contributors to this hobby.

And.R.ew Mi.ll.e&r

[Runscott]

Doesn't everyone pretty much only buy from reputable sources when we're talking about a high dollar signature? If we're talking about going back to a system where collectors are only buying from reputable dealers, I feel like that is already where we are when it comes to high dollar items.

Yes it is true that there are times these reputable dealers (auctions houses) get things wrong. But isn't that going to be true regardless of whose opinion is attached to an item? Won't there always be mistakes? I'm just not clear as to what you're after. It seems like people are upset that there's no accountability when it comes to TPA's getting it wrong. But what else can someone do but offer their best opinion and refund you if they're wrong?

If you are responding to my post, you really need to take what you're responding to in context with the rest of what I discussed - specifically, the fact that TPA's weren't around in the 'old days', and that forgeries have improved. As far as 'buying from reputable sources', there's a bit more to that comment I made - forgers are counting on many to buy without asking questions, since they put blind faith in the LOA's.

'Best opinions' and refunds are great, but keep in mind that there are scam artists making a fortune off such a business policy. They sell ten great forgeries and if they have to give a refund on a few, they still fleeced the buyers who didn't ask for a refund.

I just would like to see the TPA's take more time on the high-dollar items, perhaps even hiring people with better skills - which might mean PSA and SGC agreeing to bump up their prices for highly-forged autographs such as Ruth. In addition, if 'we' (not me) are counting on them to 'promise' us a signature is real, I'd like to feel confident that they are aware of all the 'tells' that we discuss (or don't discuss) in this forum. Hell, they are charging as if they are experts.

[7nohitter]

The future does not hold much without Jim Stinson. Congratulations to the few, meandering rubes who couldn't get heir heads out of their behinds and ran off one of the greatest contributors to this hobby.

And.R.ew Mi.ll.e&r

[Runscott]

The future does not hold much without Jim Stinson. Congratulations to the few, meandering rubes who couldn't get heir heads out of their behinds and ran off one of the greatest contributors to this hobby.

And.R.ew Mi.ll.e&r

Andrew, I'm as big of a fan as Jim as anyone, but this is a discussion forum - I saw nothing wrong with David and Shelly responding to his comment the way they did. If you are going to call them "meandering rubes", please quote what you find wrong with their statements, and explain why.

[7nohitter]

David and Shelly are not the meandering rubes.

[Runscott]

David and Shelly are not the meandering rubes.

Okay, thanks - sorry I made that assumption, but I thought Jim announced he was leaving, almost immediately after they posted rebuttals to his comments.

[7nohitter]

No problem Scott.

[David Atkatz]

Okay, thanks - sorry I made that assumption, but I thought Jim announced he was leaving, almost immediately after they posted rebuttals to his comments.I never posted a rebuttal to Jim's comments.

[Runscott]

I just went back and checked - sorry, you are right.

I was thinking about your response to his telling us that he was leaving:

"I know you know this, Jim, but not every autographed photo's provenance can be checked by asking the signee's daughter. If what you're saying is true, no "common" Ruth or Gehrig or... autograph can ever be trusted."

[shelly]

Scott, did you post that for an opinion. Here is mine. I would not touch it.

[Runscott]

Scott, did you post that for an opinion. Here is mine. I would not touch it.

Wrong thread. Glad to see I'm not the only one who does that.

[travrosty]

the tpa's already trying to outcheap each other. sgc authenticating and slabbing autographs for 8 dollars each? how are they suppose to do materials dating and testing on old autographs? what part of the 8 dollars will that eat up?

[Deertick]

If you are responding to my post, you really need to take what you're responding to in context with the rest of what I discussed - specifically, the fact that TPA's weren't around in the 'old days', and that forgeries have improved. As far as 'buying from reputable sources', there's a bit more to that comment I made - forgers are counting on many to buy without asking questions, since they put blind faith in the LOA's.

'Best opinions' and refunds are great, but keep in mind that there are scam artists making a fortune off such a business policy. They sell ten great forgeries and if they have to give a refund on a few, they still fleeced the buyers who didn't ask for a refund.

I just would like to see the TPA's take more time on the high-dollar items, perhaps even hiring people with better skills - which might mean PSA and SGC agreeing to bump up their prices for highly-forged autographs such as Ruth. In addition, if 'we' (not me) are counting on them to 'promise' us a signature is real, I'd like to feel confident that they are aware of all the 'tells' that we discuss (or don't discuss) in this forum. Hell, they are charging as if they are experts.

I agree completely.

[shelly]

The one thing missing in that post is do the auction houses refund money. I seem to remember the Jim read into REA auctions all sales finale. If you find it not be authentic a year from now do you really have a chance to get your money back?

[mighty bombjack]

The one thing missing in that post is do the auction houses refund money. I seem to remember the Jim read into REA auctions all sales finale. If you find it not be authentic a year from now do you really have a chance to get your money back?

I think if it could be proven, as in not solely relying on another opinion, but on the dating of the material or something objective like that, then I trust that REA would refund the purchase. However, those instances are pretty rare.

[Forever Young]

The one thing missing in that post is do the auction houses refund money. I seem to remember the Jim read into REA auctions all sales finale. If you find it not be authentic a year from now do you really have a chance to get your money back?

Shelly,

I would ask the exact same question of a dealer. I would guess a dealer who thinks very highly of their own opinion would question the buyer and ask for proof. I really doubt they would just refund say 3-5k for a gehrig or ruth no questions asked after a year.
Also... let's say a dealer passes away..no one lives forever.. what is the recourse now??
Ultimately, the purchaser needs to and should trust their own opinion and not rely on others. If they choose not to, they are untimately trusting people trying to sell them something regardless. That is why I think it is important to help educate collectors rather than create "secret societies"(seemingly) if one with info truly wants to help the hobby.
This is my opinion whether we are talking cards, photos, autos ect. .

[packs]

I was sold a bad Ruth by Lelands. When I called them to let them know about my worries they paid for the item to be looked at by JSA, which deemed it not authentic. I was then given a refund and a voucher for a future auction.

[Forever Young]

I was sold a bad Ruth by Lelands. When I called them to let them know about my worries they paid for the item to be looked at by JSA, which deemed it not authentic. I was then given a refund and a voucher for a future auction.

There you go.. I guess it would depend on the dealer or auction house whether or not you would get the same result. I am glad it worked out for you. Do you have a scan of the Ruth? It would be interesting to see what others thought of it.

[chaddurbin]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161282

at least packs is glad chris spoke up about his ruth. and in this instance JSA actually agreed with the board, imagine that.

[Forever Young]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161282

at least packs is glad chris spoke up about his ruth. and in this instance JSA actually agreed with the board, imagine that.

Ahh.. nice. My guess it Chris and JSA would probably agree on more sigs than not but that is just a guess. I remember this now..it was a feel good thread(Chris did the hobby a service here for sure).

[HOF Auto Rookies]

If you are responding to my post, you really need to take what you're responding to in context with the rest of what I discussed - specifically, the fact that TPA's weren't around in the 'old days', and that forgeries have improved. As far as 'buying from reputable sources', there's a bit more to that comment I made - forgers are counting on many to buy without asking questions, since they put blind faith in the LOA's.

'Best opinions' and refunds are great, but keep in mind that there are scam artists making a fortune off such a business policy. They sell ten great forgeries and if they have to give a refund on a few, they still fleeced the buyers who didn't ask for a refund.

I just would like to see the TPA's take more time on the high-dollar items, perhaps even hiring people with better skills - which might mean PSA and SGC agreeing to bump up their prices for highly-forged autographs such as Ruth. In addition, if 'we' (not me) are counting on them to 'promise' us a signature is real, I'd like to feel confident that they are aware of all the 'tells' that we discuss (or don't discuss) in this forum. Hell, they are charging as if they are experts.

I really like what you said and agree. With those high profile autos, even having an outside source to verify would significantly improve the hobby. I wouldn't mind paying more to even have Jim, Richard, Chris, Travis or David look at high profile autographs to ensure the authenticity of said item.

I honestly do not get why they don't consult to some of the leading individuals whom specialize in a specific individual player to get the most definitive answer rather than saying 'it looks like it may be authentic'

[chaddurbin]

is keating still a consultant for PSA/DNA? i see his profile on the homepage. if someone submit a stack of signed ruths/gehrigs i would hope they give him a call, and leave the jr varsity stuff to grad.

[travrosty]

is keating still a consultant for PSA/DNA? i see his profile on the homepage. if someone submit a stack of signed ruths/gehrigs i would hope they give him a call, and leave the jr varsity stuff to grad.


the consultant names for these abc, xyz companies are mostly for show. they dont show them all the signatures in their specialty. more than once did the specialist not see the autographs that is in their specialty, with the authentication company bypassing them even though they are on their roster.

[jcmtiger]

I've never collected autographs, and never had much of an interest in them. But I do read most of the autograph threads on this board. I imagine people will continue collecting autographs, and would guess that those collectors will enjoy what they are doing. That said, I've never seen a more depressing hobby or state of affairs than what transpires on Net54.

The amount of infighting among collectors and dealers is a little hard to believe. It seems like you guys really don't like each other. And the number of collectors who get ripped off buying bad stuff is truly alarming. This end of the hobby has a simply dreadful image. It looks like the place all the scammers and con men go to make a living.

If you want to see a healthy future, something has to be done. If it reaches the point where nobody can agree on whether or not a Babe Ruth signature is good or bad, then I would say the future does not look all that bright. The number of new collectors entering will grow smaller.


I agree Barry.

Joe

[HexsHeroes]

.

I, too, have pondered whether it might be best to liquidate my entire vintage autograph collection in the near future, versus holding on for another couple of decades.

My primary concern is two fold. First, the primary focus of my collection is on obscure ballplayer autographs, so the demand is considerably less, than say for a Ruth or Cobb caliber of ballplayer. My items are not the kind of material to interest too many auction houses of the quality and success rate that I would want to sell my collection. Secondly, a large majority of my collection was purchased from dealers with reasonably good/excellent hobby reputations, such as Jim Stinson, Richard Simon, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Kevin Keating, Doug Averitt, Jim Spence, etc. But most/all of these gentlemen are quite likely to be retired from the hobby in 20 years or so. With the exception of Rhys Yeakley and Jodi Birkholm, I am not overly familar with many "younger" dealers that may still be actively buying in 20 years. I can't help but think that makes for a much smaller marketplace, which would influence how much revenue the sale of my autographs would generate. And I am not even convinced that eBay will remain a viable option in 20 years.

For now, my course of action is to take a deep breath, drink a good whisky, and continue my pursuit for the autographs that elude me.

Your thoughts on the future (20 years out) on the vintage autograph hobby and whether there will be many/any professional dealers ?

[Hankphenom]

is keating still a consultant for PSA/DNA? i see his profile on the homepage. if someone submit a stack of signed ruths/gehrigs i would hope they give him a call, and leave the jr varsity stuff to grad.

As I understand it, Kevin is basically the top of the food chain at PSA, but doesn't work for them directly. He is available for consultation on ones Grad and/or others aren't sure about. Spence uses him for that purpose, too, but without any formal association.

[Hankphenom]

.

I, too, have pondered whether it might be best to liquidate my entire vintage autograph collection in the near future, versus holding on for another couple of decades.

My primary concern is two fold. First, the primary focus of my collection is on obscure ballplayer autographs, so the demand is considerably less, than say for a Ruth or Cobb caliber of ballplayer. My items are not the kind of material to interest too many auction houses of the quality and success rate that I would want to sell my collection. Secondly, a large majority of my collection was purchased from dealers with reasonably good/excellent hobby reputations, such as Jim Stinson, Richard Simon, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Kevin Keating, Doug Averitt, Jim Spence, etc. But most/all of these gentlemen are quite likely to be retired from the hobby in 20 years or so. With the exception of Rhys Yeakley and Jodi Birkholm, I am not overly familar with many "younger" dealers that may still be actively buying in 20 years. I can't help but think that makes for a much smaller marketplace, which would influence how much revenue the sale of my autographs would generate. And I am not even convinced that eBay will remain a viable option in 20 years.

For now, my course of action is to take a deep breath, drink a good whisky, and continue my pursuit for the autographs that elude me.

Your thoughts on the future (20 years out) on the vintage autograph hobby and whether there will be many/any professional dealers ?

If you're worried about the financial future of your hobby, get out now and you won't have to worry any more. Nobody knows what's going to happen. My guess is that collectibles will follow the economy: if it prospers, they will prosper; if there's a depression, there will be one in those, too. If you enjoy collecting, do it and don't think about the future. Or, as a wise man said: "Today has enough problems of its own--leave tomorrow's for tomorrow."

[travrosty]

the old rare autographs are always going to hold their value, but if anyone has a portfolio of autographs that they have assembled purely for the investment, to me that is a carpshoot.

collect them because you enjoy them, if they go up in value, great, if not, dont sweat it.

[drc]

Even where authenticity isn't a big issue, investing in any area of collectibles or memorabilia is tricky. I've been involved with baseball cards for a long time, and when some newby says "What's a good card to invest in?" I scratch my head. If you have a bar of gold that you're 100% certain is gold, it's hard to predict its financial future. I just yesterday read a newspaper article on gold and a gold dealer said "Predicting the price of gold is a crapshoot."

There will be autograph collectors and autograph collecting in the future. I can guarantee that.

[earlywynnfan]

.

I, too, have pondered whether it might be best to liquidate my entire vintage autograph collection in the near future, versus holding on for another couple of decades.

My primary concern is two fold. First, the primary focus of my collection is on obscure ballplayer autographs, so the demand is considerably less, than say for a Ruth or Cobb caliber of ballplayer. My items are not the kind of material to interest too many auction houses of the quality and success rate that I would want to sell my collection. Secondly, a large majority of my collection was purchased from dealers with reasonably good/excellent hobby reputations, such as Jim Stinson, Richard Simon, Bill Corcoran, Ron Gordon, Kevin Keating, Doug Averitt, Jim Spence, etc. But most/all of these gentlemen are quite likely to be retired from the hobby in 20 years or so. With the exception of Rhys Yeakley and Jodi Birkholm, I am not overly familar with many "younger" dealers that may still be actively buying in 20 years. I can't help but think that makes for a much smaller marketplace, which would influence how much revenue the sale of my autographs would generate. And I am not even convinced that eBay will remain a viable option in 20 years.

For now, my course of action is to take a deep breath, drink a good whisky, and continue my pursuit for the autographs that elude me.

Your thoughts on the future (20 years out) on the vintage autograph hobby and whether there will be many/any professional dealers ?

I think you should sell me the ones I'd be interested in, then keep the rest for your own personal enjoyment. I trust those sellers you bought from, but nobody else will!!;)

Ken

[whyconform]

-removed-

[travrosty]

there will always be professional autograph dealers as long as people are signing autographs.