REA catalog intro

[mighty bombjack]

Got my REA catalog today. On the two pages before the auction pages begin, there is an article titled "Autographs at REA or any other auction: Is authenticity guaranteed?" Pretty interesting discussion of TPAs and collectors, much of which is brought up around here on a regular basis. Nothing really groundbreaking, but the fact that they had this large spread says something.

Anyone read it? I couldn't find a link on their website, or I would have posted it.

[Robert_Lifson]

Autographs at REA or any other auction: Is Authenticity Guaranteed?

In a word, the answer is “No.”

What? What do you mean authenticity of autographs is not guaranteed?

What about autographs with third-party authentication? What does third-party authentication mean? Isn’t that supposed to be an absolute 100% guarantee of authenticity now and forever? If it’s not, what good is it?

Some collectors don’t like the idea of third-party authentication; they just don’t believe in it. We’re not sure what they suggest as an alternative other than being or becoming experts themselves (assuming time, ability, and desire would permit), but that is the point of view of some people, and they are entitled to it. Some have confidence in certain authenticators, but not others. Fortunately, there is room for all points of view.

At REA, we utilize the services of James Spence Authentication (JSA) to review all signed items. We think very highly of their service. This doesn’t mean that all other autograph authentication services are not good. This is what we have chosen to do because we believe that JSA offers the best authentication service in the business for the type of items that we specialize in. That doesn’t mean that they are perfect, that they have never made a mistake, or that their opinion on a given item could not change. Some other companies and individuals may be very good at providing authentication services. We find that almost 100% of the time (not 100%, but almost 100%) that if a signed item is consigned to REA with a letter from certain companies (such as PSA) or certain individuals, that JSA has the same opinion. We also find that when items are consigned with letters from certain other individuals and companies, approximately 100% of the time JSA is not OK with these items. Obviously, this is not a coincidence. Statistically, that would be impossible. When a signed item is consigned that is already accompanied by a letter of authenticity, REA separates the item and letter before presenting the item to JSA for review, so JSA has no idea if an item has previously been reviewed by another service and can present us with their own unbiased opinion. We have even had cases (very rarely, but it has happened) when JSA has told us they are not comfortable writing a letter on an item that they have previously authenticated. This is very rare but knowledge increases over time, and opinions can sometimes change over time.

One thing we cannot do, and no else can do either, is guarantee the authenticity of any signature we did not see signed ourselves. What we can guarantee is this: that for every REA auction we have an authentication process that we make very clear, and that we follow this process. This process can change over the years. What we did in 1997 is a little different than what we did in 2007; authenticators change, some have even passed away, but we define what the process is, and follow through with that process for better or worse. In the current auction, each and every signed item was presented for review to James Spence Authentication. This process occurred over the entire year. Most items are reviewed two times, and in many cases items have been reviewed three times. Many items are rejected. In fact, literally hundreds of items were rejected by JSA and returned to would-be consignors which, if authentic, would have been worth hundreds of thousands of dollars (that is not a misprint). It is possible that JSA rejected a few items that were in fact authentic. We like to remind people that if in 1927 Babe Ruth were signing an autograph, and someone bumped into him while he was signing and because of this his signature was severely affected or ruined, the resulting signature would not look like other Ruth signatures, even though it is real, and JSA would not write a letter on that particular signature in 2013. It is also possible that JSA (or any authenticator) could render a positive opinion on a signature and be incorrect. No one claims otherwise. That comes with the territory of signature authentication and collecting. Even if JSA (or any authenticator) were to be correct well over 99% of the time, it would not be perfect. Remember: All vintage signatures have one thing in common. We weren’t there when they were signed. That’s just a fact. All we can do is have a process we think is the best and stay true to it. At REA, we do not deviate from this process.

What if a collector does not have confidence in JSA’s opinion, but has confidence in the opinion of another service or individual? We are always happy to go out of our way to work with any authenticator a buyer wants to review any item. We encourage it. If a buyer does not have confidence in any authentication service or any individual to provide authentication on signed items, then it stands to reason that person definitely should not be buying any signed items. Similarly, if a baseball-card collector felt he could not tell if an old baseball card was authentic or not authentic, and believed that no one else could make this distinction either, that person should not be buying old baseball cards.

The bottom line is that neither REA nor any other auction house or any dealer or any collector can truly “guarantee” that a given autograph is authentic. It can even be difficult to prove with certainty that an autograph is not authentic. Occasionally common sense alone can determine whether a signed item is not authentic with 100% certainty (such as when a ball made in 1950 is “signed” by a ballplayer who died in 1940). Many factors go into the opinions of authenticators, including comparison with exemplars and experience. Sometimes provenance can reflect positively or negatively. If a rare autograph can be traced directly to an unimpeachable source or originates directly from the family of the signer, that is naturally very positive. The flip side is also true: If a seller of a rare autograph claims to have family provenance but evidence suggests that it is not true, and when further questioned the seller pleads “The Fifth,” that is naturally a “red flag.”

We can’t guarantee what any other authenticator would say about any given signed item, and we also can’t provide a warranty on an opinion, but we can guarantee that when preparing the auction, we presented every signed item to JSA for authentication, and only those items approved by James Spence Authentication are presented in the auction. We don’t play what we call the “mix 'n' match” game with authenticated items. Items that were approved by other authenticators, but not by JSA, were rejected and returned to the consignors. Many of these rejected items have been offered at other auction venues.

So where does that leave the collector? Does third party authentication have any value? We think it does, but every collector has to decide for himself. With some types of signed items, like most checks, for example, the opinion of a third party often has little extra value to collectors, because by nature they are always authentic. But when dealing with some other types of items, like rare cut signatures with no provenance, the buyer is really putting his confidence totally in the hands of the authenticator (or relying on his own expertise or the expertise of his chosen authenticator).

When we hear anyone say they do not believe in the value of any third-party authentication, that collectors should only purchase from dealers who “guarantee their items for life,” we do have to wonder how it comes to be that an item is later deemed to be worthy of a refund because of this, because such a determination, by definition, itself must rely on the opinion of a third party. We don’t know how to “guarantee” the authenticity of signatures we have not seen signed ourselves, and no one else can either. We all live in the same world. There is no authenticator alive (or in the past) that has not made a mistake at some time or another, sometimes even a stupid sloppy mistake, like authenticating a preprinted or autopen signature in error. We have seen collectors point to obvious mistakes by third-party authenticators as evidence that none of their opinions have value. We don’t think that is fair but we respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion. We are writers at REA, and we would hate to be judged solely by an occasional typo or by the text of a rare description that has errors. So what is third-party authentication when it is true that no authenticator is going to be correct 100% of the time? At REA, it is this: we have chosen what we believe to be the best authentication firm in the world for the type of signed items we offer at auction; we can guarantee that when these signed items were processed for auction, they were carefully examined and deemed to be authentic in the opinion of JSA; and we can guarantee that JSA provided a letter for each lot. That’s what it means. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It is important for collectors to understand what they are bidding on, what guarantees are provided (at REA and elsewhere), and not be under any false impression. Sometimes we are asked, “What if PSA does not like this item, but JSA does? Can I return it?” and we have to answer “No." But you have two options: if you only want to buy signed items authenticated by PSA, why not buy items that have already been authenticated by PSA? Or, we will be happy to work with you to allow you to have PSA, or any authenticator of your choice, review any item in the auction for you. This can be done by reviewing photos online, reviewing items in person, or we can even make special arrangements (with expenses paid by you) to send items out. That way you can know what any authenticator of your choice has to say about any item. But we cannot predict what they are going to say about any given item or make any guarantees. That would be impossible, and if we had to do that, then we just could not sell autographed items.

This essay is being published here to share REA's thoughts about autographs and authentication in general. We think the ideas expressed here about autographs are universal in nature, have great merit, and are worth including in the printed catalog, just as they have been for many years on the REA website.

Sincerely,

Robert Edward Auctions LLC.

[mighty bombjack]

Thank you for posting that!

[JimStinson]

Autographs at REA or any other auction: Is Authenticity Guaranteed?

In a word, the answer is “No.”

What? What do you mean authenticity of autographs is not guaranteed?

What about autographs with third-party authentication? What does third-party authentication mean? Isn’t that supposed to be an absolute 100% guarantee of authenticity now and forever? If it’s not, what good is it?

Some collectors don’t like the idea of third-party authentication; they just don’t believe in it. We’re not sure what they suggest as an alternative other than being or becoming experts themselves (assuming time, ability, and desire would permit), but that is the point of view of some people, and they are entitled to it. Some have confidence in certain authenticators, but not others. Fortunately, there is room for all points of view.

At REA, we utilize the services of James Spence Authentication (JSA) to review all signed items. We think very highly of their service. This doesn’t mean that all other autograph authentication services are not good. This is what we have chosen to do because we believe that JSA offers the best authentication service in the business for the type of items that we specialize in. That doesn’t mean that they are perfect, that they have never made a mistake, or that their opinion on a given item could not change. Some other companies and individuals may be very good at providing authentication services. We find that almost 100% of the time (not 100%, but almost 100%) that if a signed item is consigned to REA with a letter from certain companies (such as PSA) or certain individuals, that JSA has the same opinion. We also find that when items are consigned with letters from certain other individuals and companies, approximately 100% of the time JSA is not OK with these items. Obviously, this is not a coincidence. Statistically, that would be impossible. When a signed item is consigned that is already accompanied by a letter of authenticity, REA separates the item and letter before presenting the item to JSA for review, so JSA has no idea if an item has previously been reviewed by another service and can present us with their own unbiased opinion. We have even had cases (very rarely, but it has happened) when JSA has told us they are not comfortable writing a letter on an item that they have previously authenticated. This is very rare but knowledge increases over time, and opinions can sometimes change over time.

One thing we cannot do, and no else can do either, is guarantee the authenticity of any signature we did not see signed ourselves. What we can guarantee is this: that for every REA auction we have an authentication process that we make very clear, and that we follow this process. This process can change over the years. What we did in 1997 is a little different than what we did in 2007; authenticators change, some have even passed away, but we define what the process is, and follow through with that process for better or worse. In the current auction, each and every signed item was presented for review to James Spence Authentication. This process occurred over the entire year. Most items are reviewed two times, and in many cases items have been reviewed three times. Many items are rejected. In fact, literally hundreds of items were rejected by JSA and returned to would-be consignors which, if authentic, would have been worth hundreds of thousands of dollars (that is not a misprint). It is possible that JSA rejected a few items that were in fact authentic. We like to remind people that if in 1927 Babe Ruth were signing an autograph, and someone bumped into him while he was signing and because of this his signature was severely affected or ruined, the resulting signature would not look like other Ruth signatures, even though it is real, and JSA would not write a letter on that particular signature in 2013. It is also possible that JSA (or any authenticator) could render a positive opinion on a signature and be incorrect. No one claims otherwise. That comes with the territory of signature authentication and collecting. Even if JSA (or any authenticator) were to be correct well over 99% of the time, it would not be perfect. Remember: All vintage signatures have one thing in common. We weren’t there when they were signed. That’s just a fact. All we can do is have a process we think is the best and stay true to it. At REA, we do not deviate from this process.

What if a collector does not have confidence in JSA’s opinion, but has confidence in the opinion of another service or individual? We are always happy to go out of our way to work with any authenticator a buyer wants to review any item. We encourage it. If a buyer does not have confidence in any authentication service or any individual to provide authentication on signed items, then it stands to reason that person definitely should not be buying any signed items. Similarly, if a baseball-card collector felt he could not tell if an old baseball card was authentic or not authentic, and believed that no one else could make this distinction either, that person should not be buying old baseball cards.

The bottom line is that neither REA nor any other auction house or any dealer or any collector can truly “guarantee” that a given autograph is authentic. It can even be difficult to prove with certainty that an autograph is not authentic. Occasionally common sense alone can determine whether a signed item is not authentic with 100% certainty (such as when a ball made in 1950 is “signed” by a ballplayer who died in 1940). Many factors go into the opinions of authenticators, including comparison with exemplars and experience. Sometimes provenance can reflect positively or negatively. If a rare autograph can be traced directly to an unimpeachable source or originates directly from the family of the signer, that is naturally very positive. The flip side is also true: If a seller of a rare autograph claims to have family provenance but evidence suggests that it is not true, and when further questioned the seller pleads “The Fifth,” that is naturally a “red flag.”

We can’t guarantee what any other authenticator would say about any given signed item, and we also can’t provide a warranty on an opinion, but we can guarantee that when preparing the auction, we presented every signed item to JSA for authentication, and only those items approved by James Spence Authentication are presented in the auction. We don’t play what we call the “mix 'n' match” game with authenticated items. Items that were approved by other authenticators, but not by JSA, were rejected and returned to the consignors. Many of these rejected items have been offered at other auction venues.

So where does that leave the collector? Does third party authentication have any value? We think it does, but every collector has to decide for himself. With some types of signed items, like most checks, for example, the opinion of a third party often has little extra value to collectors, because by nature they are always authentic. But when dealing with some other types of items, like rare cut signatures with no provenance, the buyer is really putting his confidence totally in the hands of the authenticator (or relying on his own expertise or the expertise of his chosen authenticator).

When we hear anyone say they do not believe in the value of any third-party authentication, that collectors should only purchase from dealers who “guarantee their items for life,” we do have to wonder how it comes to be that an item is later deemed to be worthy of a refund because of this, because such a determination, by definition, itself must rely on the opinion of a third party. We don’t know how to “guarantee” the authenticity of signatures we have not seen signed ourselves, and no one else can either. We all live in the same world. There is no authenticator alive (or in the past) that has not made a mistake at some time or another, sometimes even a stupid sloppy mistake, like authenticating a preprinted or autopen signature in error. We have seen collectors point to obvious mistakes by third-party authenticators as evidence that none of their opinions have value. We don’t think that is fair but we respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion. We are writers at REA, and we would hate to be judged solely by an occasional typo or by the text of a rare description that has errors. So what is third-party authentication when it is true that no authenticator is going to be correct 100% of the time? At REA, it is this: we have chosen what we believe to be the best authentication firm in the world for the type of signed items we offer at auction; we can guarantee that when these signed items were processed for auction, they were carefully examined and deemed to be authentic in the opinion of JSA; and we can guarantee that JSA provided a letter for each lot. That’s what it means. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It is important for collectors to understand what they are bidding on, what guarantees are provided (at REA and elsewhere), and not be under any false impression. Sometimes we are asked, “What if PSA does not like this item, but JSA does? Can I return it?” and we have to answer “No." But you have two options: if you only want to buy signed items authenticated by PSA, why not buy items that have already been authenticated by PSA? Or, we will be happy to work with you to allow you to have PSA, or any authenticator of your choice, review any item in the auction for you. This can be done by reviewing photos online, reviewing items in person, or we can even make special arrangements (with expenses paid by you) to send items out. That way you can know what any authenticator of your choice has to say about any item. But we cannot predict what they are going to say about any given item or make any guarantees. That would be impossible, and if we had to do that, then we just could not sell autographed items.

This essay is being published here to share REA's thoughts about autographs and authentication in general. We think the ideas expressed here about autographs are universal in nature, have great merit, and are worth including in the printed catalog, just as they have been for many years on the REA website.

Sincerely,

Robert Edward Auctions LLC.

There certainly are some good points made...Correct me if I am wrong but condensed to three words basically it says ....ALL SALES FINAL.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[mr2686]

Or down to 2 words...Buyer Beware!!

[Scott Garner]

Interesting...

[Exhibitman]

Refreshingly honest, I'd say.

[mschwade]

Refreshingly honest, I'd say.

+1

[Forever Young]

Refreshingly honest, I'd say.

Agreed

[GrayGhost]

Yes it sure is. People need to just accept that there is a leap of faith in EVERY sold autograph, unless it was signed IN FRONT of you.

Got my dream book yesterday and have started looking. Wonderful job as always. GREAT stuff and catalog

[tcdyess]

Yes it sure is. People need to just accept that there is a leap of faith in EVERY sold autograph, unless it was signed IN FRONT of you.

Got my dream book yesterday and have started looking. Wonderful job as always. GREAT stuff and catalog

+1

[shelly]

I have a couple of problems. If Jim is correct no returns is one. The second is a leap of fath. You are correct if you were not there you have to show trust. I think with items over $7,000 you should have at least one more person to trust. I don't think that if someone is going to spend that kind of money you should have to pay to make sure and Item is authtentic before the auction. It should be automatic to have at least two authenticators for high priced items.
Just want to know if I did send it out to someone both of us trust and they said no or not able to authenticate. What happens to that item. Is it still up for sale. Do you say that it was not passed by so and so or not able to authenticate? Do you let the next guy go through the same thing?:confused:

[JimStinson]

I have a couple of problems. If Jim is correct no returns is one. The second is a leap of fath. You are correct if you where not there you have to show trust. I think with items over $7,000 you should have at least one more person to trust. If you dont want to do that then I should have right to send it to anyone that is respected on this site. If it come back good I own it if not then we have to talk.

I guess it all depends on who's doing the "LEAPING" if its Bob Beamon or Mike Powell...cool , If its Danny DeVito or Butterbean Esch..not so cool, :)
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

So in defining "Leap of Faith" .....are we talking about THIS GUY or the OTHER GUY ? because both represent leaps of faith but with slightly different results.
__________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[thetruthisoutthere]

I guess it all depends on who's doing the "LEAPING" if its Bob Beamon or Mike Powell...cool , If its Danny DeVito or Butterbean Esch..not so cool, :)
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Jim, this is a serious topic. Shelly posted a serious comment and you make light of it. Why?

[shelly]

There certainly are some good points made...Correct me if I am wrong but condensed to three words basically it says ....ALL SALES FINAL.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Jim, I was useing your words not mine. When I said all sales final. I shoudl have said it is not faith, it is trust. I want to know what happens if someone finds an authenticator that we trust on this site says no or nothing to REA. What happens then. I think that is a fair question. Rob you know I talked to you about this.
This is really an important question that has to do with a lot of money. Its all about trust and I would not trust one persons opinion with yours or my money.

[JimStinson]

Jim, this is a serious topic. Shelly posted a serious comment and you make light of it. Why?

I thought Shelly's comment was on the money, Don't hold the fact that I have a sense of humor against me ;)
There will be days, weeks and endless pages in this thread that can now be devoted to serious discussion. Carry On
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

Jim, this is a serious topic. Shelly posted a serious comment and you make light of it. Why?


you must have not read a jim stinson post before. lighten up a bit.

[shelly]

Travis,no big thing. I think the question I asked of REA should be what is important

[travrosty]

i think the answer is that you are welcome to get opinions on any item you are planning to bid on from your favorite authenticator BEFORE you bid, and i think auction houses are generally accomodating in that respect. otherwise it becomes a game of dueling authenticators.

i don't have a problem with only one persons opinion on a big ticket item, it just depends on who that person is. the people i trust are people who can explain their authentication on any item if asked, show exemplars, and not hide behind their coa. such a person is rare though.

[shelly]

Travis, I put up a piece from the auction and it came back no opinion. If you where REA would you look into that? They also have a piece that has been totaly taken apart by Ron with many reasons why he feels it is not authentic.It is still in the auction.

[GrayGhost]

The largest, best auction catalog in a long time, and its pick apart time again. I don't see how any of you can collect/deal in high ticket signatures, all you ever do is look for forgeries and complain, no matter what someone writes/explains in a listing. It is just crazy.

[Leon]

I won't speak for REA because Rob runs circles around me. That being said, I took what they wrote to mean they are relying on their chosen TPG. If you want to get others to look at it, that is fine, but their only decision is based on what JSA says. If you don't like it, don't bid. They aren't going to play the dueling TPG game. I can't say I blame them. IF you don't like it or the item, don't bid. I suggest folks either be comfortable with what they are buying, buy only on legal documents, which are less prone to issues, collect only in person signings, or find something else to collect. Really, what else is there to say? I am with Scott. How could you possibly be happy with having issues almost every single day. I can't imagine it is fun but who am I to say what masochists like :).

[JimStinson]

Any seller has the right to institute whatever policies and parameters they see fit with regards to their enterprize and business model.

The buyer can then choose to abide by them or change the channel and walk away.
The forum provides for open discussion, exchange of information , friendly debate and occasional levity. Lacking any of the four there would be no need for a forum
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[GrayGhost]

Leon and Jim are both right. It really is simple. If you aren't happy with their policy, or JSA looking at all things, bid somewhere else.

I love honest discussion/debate on stuff, especially sports collectibles, but there are plenty of other major auctions to bid in too. I commend REA for at least expressing their policies, especially in light of the fact that this is right now the most controversial area of the hobby.

[shelly]

After reading what has been said then I agree with the third part. Let the buyer beware.

[Exhibitman]

Scott and Leon hit the nail on the head. I applaud Rob for stating the policy clearly and for delineating the parameters of how they authenticate and who they choose to use for it. It is out there and clear as a bell so if it isn't your cup o tea, no need to fulminate, just take your business elsewhere.

BTW Jim, nice Butterbean reference!

[Big Dave]

This has been pretty much standard policy at all auction houses forever.....REA just articulated this to the Nth degree.

Thus the reason most do not take credit cards.

[Wymers Auction]

After reading what has been said then I agree with the third part. Let the buyer beware.

Shelly I normally do not take issue with what you say, but what can they do better? They offer JSA on all items and offer to arrange mailing the items to your choice TPA before the auction. What else can they do? It is not financially feasable for them to have every item certified through JSA, PSA, SGC, Richard Simon, Jim Stinson, ETC.

[shelly]

Shelly I normally do not take issue with what you say, but what can they do better? They offer JSA on all items and offer to arrange mailing the items to your choice TPA before the auction. What else can they do? It is not financially feasable for them to have every item certified through JSA, PSA, SGC, Richard Simon, Jim Stinson, ETC.

James, I agree.:) I am only saying let the buyer beware. It is the safest and best way to buy anything that you have to trust someone else's opinion.

[JimStinson]

It is not financially feasable for them to have every item certified through JSA, PSA, SGC, Richard Simon, Jim Stinson, ETC.

What the autograph collecting community in general may or may not know is that most autograph dealers (at least ALL of the ones that I know) will often times request a 2nd , 3rd, 4th etc. opinion from not only other dealers but from collectors who's specialty is that particular field of collecting.

The favor is then reciprocated as a professional courtesy , this has been going on for as long as I can remember. And not just "high dollar" autographs either.
So while after 30 plus years doing this day in and day out I can most of the time render an independant opinion on my own but If there is a shred of doubt no matter how slim. I request an opinion from my colleagues.

So unknown to the person who eventually buys the autograph or autographs , they may have already been presented to multiple sets of eyes for evaluation. In addition to the research I've already done myself with most of these "eyes" belonging to what anyone with any collecting experience would consider "household names" in the hobby.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

Jim, it still comes down to who do you trust. Nothing more and really nothing else. It does not say anyone else but Spence authenticated the item. They might have ten people look at it but it comes down to just that one person.
I agreed that REA has offered to do anything that you want to make sure you are comfortable bidding on there items.
If you want to bid on something go for it. If your not comfortable with what you see. Don't. That is what most people do every day when they buy something.

[Wymers Auction]

What the autograph collecting community in general may or may not know is that most autograph dealers (at least ALL of the ones that I know) will often times request a 2nd , 3rd, 4th etc. opinion from not only other dealers but from collectors who's specialty is that particular field of collecting.

The favor is then reciprocated as a professional courtesy , this has been going on for as long as I can remember. And not just "high dollar" autographs either.
So while after 30 plus years doing this day in and day out I can most of the time render an independant opinion on my own but If there is a shred of doubt no matter how slim. I request an opinion from my colleagues.

So unknown to the person who eventually buys the autograph or autographs , they may have already been presented to multiple sets of eyes for evaluation. In addition to the research I've already done myself with most of these "eyes" belonging to what anyone with any collecting experience would consider "household names" in the hobby.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
Thanks Jim that helped to clarify your view as well as Shelly's. By the way Jim I only put yours and Richard's names in that post of my personal respect of your opinions.

[JimStinson]

Jim, it still comes down to who do you trust. Nothing more and really nothing else. It does not say anyone else but Spence authenticated the item. They might have ten people look at it but it comes down to just that one person.
I agreed that REA has offered to do anything that you want to make sure you are comfortable bidding on there items.
If you want to bid on something go for it. If your not comfortable with what you see. Don't. That is what most people do every day when they buy something.

I probably should have clarified that. I have not bid on anything in auctions in a very long time and don't plan to. It was a reference to dealers who's specialty is autographs. The ones that have been around awhile all offer a money back guarantee. And in the unlikely event of an error (real or perceived) assume all accountability for it.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[shelly]

I probably should have clarified that. I have not bid on anything in auctions in a very long time and don't plan to. It was a reference to dealers who's specialty is autographs. The ones that have been around awhile all offer a money back guarantee. And in the unlikely event of an error (real or perceived) assume all accountability for it.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

++++

[Runscott]

Yes it sure is. People need to just accept that there is a leap of faith in EVERY sold autograph, unless it was signed IN FRONT of you.

Got my dream book yesterday and have started looking. Wonderful job as always. GREAT stuff and catalog

Scott, I have bought autographs that I am certain are real;i.e-there was no leap of faith. I understand that some autographs will be sold with a very tiny 'step' of faith, but if it requires a 'leap', it shouldn't be purchased. If more of us were unwilling to 'leap' at such autographs, we'd have fewer forgeries out there.

Not saying you are doing this, but I have seen forum members use the 'leap of faith' argument to justify their own past mistakes.

[Runscott]

Leon and Jim are both right. It really is simple. If you aren't happy with their policy, or JSA looking at all things, bid somewhere else.

I love honest discussion/debate on stuff, especially sports collectibles, but there are plenty of other major auctions to bid in too. I commend REA for at least expressing their policies, especially in light of the fact that this is right now the most controversial area of the hobby.

Big +1 - especially Leon's comment about REA choosing JSA as their TPA and abiding by their decisions. 3 TLA's in one sentence!

[travrosty]

a lot of these auction houses trust abc or xyz for financial reasons. they believe they can get a higher bid because they believe the public will pay more for abc and xyz certs. what they don't understand is that they are perpetuating it by this belief if only abc and xyz certs can make it into any auction house listings.

but as long as they think they are getting the higher bids then they don't care.

personally a lot of these autographs would be more accurate if specialists had their own coa attached to it. but accuracy doesnt compute to $$$$$$$$$ in a lot of these peoples minds so we get stuck with abc and xyz.

a story recently of a person who had an elvis signature looked at by abc, they flunked it, but the elvis specialist, who is on staff there, liked it off of the record. they asked abc why they didnt have the elvis specialist look at it, and abc supposedly replied that they dont show the elvis guy every elvis autograph.

they why have the guy on staff? i think if we knew the % of autographs that the "specialists" on staff of these outfits actually looked at in comparison to all the submission of their specialties, it would probably be an eye opener.

If I ran an auction house i wouldnt use any authentication company who wouldn't tell the public just who exactly looked at any one autograph and i would require them to at least have exemplars given to me at least in reserve to back up their findings to show to any bidder who asked. if they can't do that, they why 'trust' them?

i would like to ask REA why they trust JSA?

[markf31]

i would like to ask REA why they trust JSA?

I think they made that pretty obvious if you read the autograph intro.

We think very highly of their service. This doesn’t mean that all other autograph authentication services are not good. This is what we have chosen to do because we believe that JSA offers the best authentication service in the business for the type of items that we specialize in.

[JimStinson]

Scott, I have bought autographs that I am certain are real;i.e-there was no leap of faith. I understand that some autographs will be sold with a very tiny 'step' of faith, but if it requires a 'leap', it shouldn't be purchased. If more of us were unwilling to 'leap' at such autographs, we'd have fewer forgeries out there.

Not saying you are doing this, but I have seen forum members use the 'leap of faith' argument to justify their own past mistakes.

BINGO !!!
_______________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[GrayGhost]

I don't have the lot number handy, but there is a Babe Ruth/Bob Meusel signed ball, where the Ruth looks awful. it could have been and "on field rush job" if u read the cool provenance, just looks awful.

Thoughts?

[travrosty]

I think they made that pretty obvious if you read the autograph intro.



no they didn't, they didnt explain why they feel that way and why they believe jsa to be the best. how did they come to that conclusion?

i wish rea would come on here and explain.

[mschwade]

Slightly off topic, but why does REA post that letter from Barry Halper on the inside cover? I think with all the controversy surrounding his collection, this is certainly not a good business move for potential buyers. I know they'll most like be "just fine" with it in there, just don't feel confident seeing REA boast the Halper thank you letter.

[jgmp123]

Slightly off topic, but why does REA post that letter from Barry Halper on the inside cover? I think with all the controversy surrounding his collection, this is certainly not a good business move for potential buyers. I know they'll most like be "just fine" with it in there, just don't feel confident seeing REA boast the Halper thank you letter.

Actually thought the same thing...

[Big Dave]

It's like a "thank you" letter to Coach's Corner from one of their consigners.

[RichardSimon]

It's like a "thank you" letter to Coach's Corner from one of their consigners.

It should read:
Dear hobby,,
Thank you for helping me to pull off this great ($$$$) scam and making me wealthy.
Your friend,
Barry Halper or
Lee Trythall , either one fits

[shelly]

no they didn't, they didnt explain why they feel that way and why they believe jsa to be the best. how did they come to that conclusion?

i wish rea would come on here and explain.

I know that when I buy something for 20,000 I will really sleep well at night:rolleyes:

[travrosty]

they pawn off authentication to an outfit that doesnt tell you who looked at the item so they can wash their hands of the authentication? who the heck looks at these items?

[shelly]

I do have one question to the people that do buy from auction houses. Did they or do they still guarantee an item for life?

[Leon]

I do have one question to the people that do buy from auction houses. Did they or do they still guarantee an item for life?

I think it depends. They have to be able to go back to a consignor for relief and after a lot of time that could be difficult. If I sell something privately I always give a lifetime warranty of authenticity. I don't, and would almost never, sell autographs. I have given a few refunds of items sold 1-2 yrs before.

[shelly]

Leon, if the consigner sends a ball to REA in good faith and it is authenticated by there expert. Why would he have to pay back the money? It is sort of like the Uda card that sold for $85,000 the guy who sold it never had to pay back the money. It was the people that said it was authentic who where sued.
Take the card side. You pay a lot of money for a card that was graded. You then want to see if you can get a higher grade. It comes back trimmed who do you go after?
Not trying to pick a fight just curious.

[Leon]

Leon, if the consigner sends a ball to REA in good faith and it is authenticated by there expert. Why would he have to pay back the money? It is sort of like the Uda card that sold for $85,000 the guy who sold it never had to pay back the money. It was the people that said it was authentic who where sued.
Take the card side. You pay a lot of money for a card that was graded. You then want to see if you can get a higher grade. It comes back trimmed who do you go after?
Not trying to pick a fight just curious.

On the card side, when you crack a card out of a holder, there are no returns...period. That goes for me too. Once a card is cracked from the holder anything can happen to it. And I don't know of the UDA card so have no comment on it.

[shelly]

Wow, You buy a card for $5,000 and it is in a holder from one of the top gradeing companys. You send it back to them to see if you can get a better grade. Instead it comes back trimmed. You have lost your money and can do nothing about it. I sure as hell would be ticked off.:mad:

[Leon]

Wow, You buy a card for $5,000 and it is in a holder from one of the top gradeing companys. You send it back to them to see if you can get a better grade. Instead it comes back trimmed. You have lost your money and can do nothing about it. I sure as hell would be ticked off.:mad:

Stick to autographs :). You will be much happier :confused:.

[shelly]

Leon, that was a gotcha moment.:eek:

[travrosty]

authentication and grading is all a merry go round the way it is being done now, but it doesnt have to be. new reformed guidelines and rules could take all of this away, but too much money is being made right now for anything to change.

think about it. consignor says "hey the authentication company certed it and the auction house took my consignment based on that"

the auction house says "the authentication company certed it so what else can i do"

the authentication company says "it's just our opinion, we don't guarantee authenticity" . for all that hand washing why isn't the hobby clean?


the authentication company's cert adds value to a lot of people so they should have to be on the hook for it somewhat. if authentication company's pocketbook took a hit when their authentications blow up in their face, maybe they will take some more time, resources and care in their authentications rather than just sending 20 something year old kids out to these shows and have them "shapeticate" to rake in the money.

[Runscott]

Wow, You buy a card for $5,000 and it is in a holder from one of the top gradeing companys. You send it back to them to see if you can get a better grade. Instead it comes back trimmed. You have lost your money and can do nothing about it. I sure as hell would be ticked off.:mad:

Shelly, my thought about slabbed high-grade cards is that they are now something other than simply a 'card' - they are now a slabbed 'thing' with a slip of paper that has a number on it. Once cracked, it has returned to being what it was beforehand - a card with all the characteristics that it always had (trimming, coloring, nothing at all...).

It's the world that 'we' created.

[David Atkatz]

You might as well say the same thing about a slabbed autograph. Authenticity or lack thereof have absolutely no meaning--it is "now a slabbed 'thing' with a slip of paper that has a number on it. Once cracked, it has returned to being what it was beforehand"-- a signed object that is either genuine or not.

Why are you willing to suspend all your disbelief for a slabbed card, but not a slabbed autograph?

(I am not myself advocating doing either.)