Who was better, who would you take, Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays?

[CMIZ5290]

2 of the best of all time, but I would have to go with the Mick...

[Zone91]

More popular and great player Mantle...better stats Mays....based on stats alone it would be Mays.

[jimhopkins82]

I'm sure talent wise they were similar but Mays had the much better career.

[Sean]

Mays had the better career, I don't think that can be argued. But at his best, Mantle was better. Mick's three best years (1956,'57,and'61) were each better than Willie's best year. So it comes down to which matters more to you, peak performance or career achievement. As for me, I choose career value, so my vote goes to Mays.
I also think that Mick's 1956 Triple Crown year was the best season any centerfielder has ever had. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Zone91]

Mays played a lot more games than Mantle...but if Mantle had been healthy he would have most likely finished with similar stats than Mays.

Popularity wise Mantle by a 100 miles easy!!! Ask kids of today who Mantle is they mostly all know can't say the same for Mays.

[Paul S]

Gary Cooper

[Sean]

Mays played a lot more games than Mantle...but if Mantle had been healthy he would have most likely finished with similar stats than Mays.

Popularity wise Mantle by a 100 miles easy!!! Ask kids of today who Mantle is they mostly all know can't say the same for Mays.

To paraphrase Bill James" someone is not a great player because he could have been a great player." Mantle would have had better stats if he had been healthy. But he wasn't, and he didn't. And in the end that's all that matters.

[jimivintage]

Diehard Yankees fans will likely pick Mantle, but is this really a competition? Mays by a landslide.

[Eric72]

I would take Willie Mays...in a New York minute. :D

[Shoele$$]

Mays played a lot more games than Mantle...but if Mantle had been healthy he would have most likely finished with similar stats than Mays.

No he WOULD have had better stats than Mays had he played longer AND wasn't hung over/injured most of the time. Mantle thought he wasn't gonna live past 40......and he drank like it.

Not to mention he played damn near his whole career on a broken body. Had Mays gone through what Mantle did physically and drank himself half to death like Mick, Mays wouldn't even be in the HOF right now or have come even close to his career stats. "Die hard" Yankee fan or not......Mantle was the MUCH more talented ball player than Mays. Faster, stronger, tougher and more naturally talented than Mays or anybody else at that time.

[auggiedoggy]

Willie Mays was my childhood baseball hero. I tried to play the game like him - imitating his basket catch style in the outfield (which made my Little League coach nervous) :D

I became a Giants fans because of him. I still remember when my father took me to Montreal in 1969 to see the Expos vs the Giants and Mays was playing that night. I was over the moon.

All this to say my choice is Mays.

[AMBST95]

You can have all of the talent in the world, but if you can't harness it and actually use it, it's pointless. Willie Mays wins this one. The question you pose isn't who had the most talent, but who was better. Mays was better than Mantle as his career numbers clearly show.

[Zone91]

Same in hockey what if Mario Lemieux was healthy would he be the all time points leader....that DOES not count he simply is not....same with Mantle...love the guy but Mays was better. Mantle should have known better and staid healthy but he CHOSE not to and the price to be paid now in history is that Mays was and still is a better player. Mays was simply a smarter man and staid healthy by CHOICE!!!

[conor912]

Diehard Yankees fans will likely pick Mantle, but is this really a competition? Mays by a landslide.

I agree. Mays, no contest.

[mark evans]

Although I was a Yankee fan and Mantle my hero, the answer has to be Willie Mays. He was the best ballplayer I've ever seen.

[CW]

Mantle was great, but I have to go with Mays on this one. Mays was a pure five-tool, all around player. Mantle may have had the speed, but he didn't have the fielding proficiency that Mays had. Mays had the knack of being in the right place at the right time. Of course, I never saw either of them play, so I am largely talking out of my ass. :D

[itjclarke]

Mays by far.

[Paul S]

With all the talk about Joe D and Williams, Mantle and Mays...

[hammer]

62 World Series tells all.

[auggiedoggy]

62 World Series tells all.

A career isn't defined by one series. ;)

[itjclarke]

62 World Series tells all.

Should be known, Mays doubled with 2 outs in the 9th of game 7. It should've scored Alou with the tying run but Maris made a great play cutting it off and getting it back to the infield. Mays would've been the winning run had McCovey's liner made through the infield.

[nolemmings]

62 World Series tells all.

That's hilarious. You mean the series where Mays hit .250 with no HR and 1 RBI? Wow, epic.

True Mantle stunk in that series. But whose team won? Mays played in 4 World Series and hit zero home runs with 6 RBI, batting under .240. Mantle played in 3 World Series with no home runs; of course he also played in 9 others with 18 Home Runs and 40 RBI . Seven World's Championships to 1, and 12 World Series to 4. We're supposed to focus on what actually happened and not what could have, right? Scoreboard.

A previous poster correctly noted that Mantle's peak years--12 seasons-were notably better than Mays. That sample size is large enough for me, and other than possibly Dimaggio's 1937 season, I do not believe any CF could match Mickey's 1956 campaign. I would like to hear from those who played against both, especially pitchers. I doubt it would be close. Mantle was pitched very carefully, and walked more than 100 times in 10 seasons, including his broken down final two. Mays walked 100 times or more exactly once in 22 years.

[sycks22]

Mays hands down.

[ElCabron]

Mays, no question. Not close. Name a single aspect of the game that Mantle was better at.

The one area Mantle dominated in would be postseason hitting. But what would that comparison be with Mays on the Yankees and Mantle on the Giants? Would anyone say Mantle is a better hitter than Williams? Of course not. But Mantle crushes Williams based on postseason alone.

-Ryan

[itjclarke]

That's hilarious. You mean the series where Mays hit .250 with no HR and 1 RBI? Wow, epic.

True Mantle stunk in that series. But whose team won? .

I think he was using the '62 series as argument for Mantle.

[nolemmings]

Ryan,

I argued this with you and Al two Cleveland Nationals ago (when Don Larsen got in a fight at the hotel bar) and you were just as wrong then as you are now. :) Hopefully Al has seen the light.

Mantle could hit the ball farther (BOTH WAYS) and could run faster. He had a stronger arm. Most importantly and by a wide margin, he was more CLUTCH.

[Runscott]

Wow. I would have said Mantle, but I'm learning that you don't want to disagree with a Mays fan :eek:

[CMIZ5290]

Mays, no question. Not close. Name a single aspect of the game that Mantle was better at.

The one area Mantle dominated in would be postseason hitting. But what would that comparison be with Mays on the Yankees and Mantle on the Giants? Would anyone say Mantle is a better hitter than Williams? Of course not. But Mantle crushes Williams based on postseason alone.

-Ryan

Hitting homeruns that went over 500 feet:D

[ElCabron]

Todd,

I agree that Mantle was more clutch. By a wide margin. And I do believe clutch hitting is real. I'm not so sure he was faster than Mays. Maybe pre-injury. I'm also not sure he had a better arm. But you couldn't really be trying to say that Mantle was better than Mays defensively, could you?

Trivia: Who had the fewest 100-RBI seasons in their career out of the following players:

* Mickey Mantle
* Bob Meusel
* Dolph Camilli
* Vic Wertz
* Rudy York
* Del Ennis
* Steve Garvey
* Danny Tartabull
* Moises Alou
* Magglio Ordonez

-Ryan

[Jlighter]

Mays, no question. Not close. Name a single aspect of the game that Mantle was better at.

-Ryan

Getting on base, the Mick has a much higher OBP.

[auggiedoggy]

Hitting homeruns that went over 500 feet:D

Career Homeruns:

Willie mays: 660
Mickey mantle: 536

Its not how far, its how many.

:D

[Jlighter]

Todd,

Trivia: Who had the fewest 100-RBI seasons in their career out of the following players:

* Mickey Mantle
* Bob Meusel
* Dolph Camilli
* Vic Wertz
* Rudy York
* Del Ennis
* Steve Garvey
* Danny Tartabull
* Moises Alou
* Magglio Ordonez

-Ryan

That is such a fallacious question. The Mick had 5 90-100 RBI seasons.

[Sean]

Todd,

I agree that Mantle was more clutch. By a wide margin. And I do believe clutch hitting is real. I'm not so sure he was faster than Mays. Maybe pre-injury. I'm also not sure he had a better arm. But you couldn't really be trying to say that Mantle was better than Mays defensively, could you?

Trivia: Who had the fewest 100-RBI seasons in their career out of the following players:

* Mickey Mantle
* Bob Meusel
* Dolph Camilli
* Vic Wertz
* Rudy York
* Del Ennis
* Steve Garvey
* Danny Tartabull
* Moises Alou
* Magglio Ordonez

-Ryan

I'm guessing Mantle.

[Sean]

Another trivia question: who led the league in RBIs more times, Mays or Mantle?

[nickedson]

I've had this conversation with the late Hall of Fame broadcaster Ernie Harwell many times. He saw Mantle play his entire career and he saw Mays when he got a chance. Based on what they did - not on what they might have done - Ernie long claimed Mays was the best ballplayer he ever saw. Good enough for me.

[bbcard1]

If I was a manager, Mays. Both were great, Willie could do just a little more.

If I was an owner, Mickey. He sold a lot of tickets and won more rings. You could argue he had better talent around him, but I'd have to look at that pretty close to validate it. Mantle had Maris. Mays had McCovey. Mantle had Ford. Mays had Marichal. Probably the Yanks mid-level players were a little better.

[auggiedoggy]

Another trivia question: who led the league in RBIs more times, Mays or Mantle?

Couldn't tell you but Mays is ranked 10th all-time in RBIs with 1,903 while Mantle is ranked 51st with 1,509. ;)

[ElCabron]

Five seasons of 90 to 100 RBI is pretty good. Add that to his 4 100-RBI seasons, and that makes 9 years of 90+. Not bad.

Mays had 14 seasons of 96+.

Mantle led the league in RBI one time more than Mays. How many times did Mantle lead the league in stolen bases? Mays did 4 times. The same amount of times he led the league in home runs.

-Ryan

[timber63401]

Ill just keep it simple and say Mays. Probably the wrong forum to make an arguement on how overrated RBIs are :)

[brian1961]

We all have our favorites.

We all have aspects in baseball that are more important to us than others.

We all are much affected by what we've seen , read, and heard from those we trusted and respected. That includes whether we have actually met the given athlete, which can have a profound affect upon us, if the encounter goes "I'll never wash my hand again or forget this day for the rest of my life" or "I made him into a monument in my heart and he just took a sledgehammer and shattered it to pieces. I don't like him anymore. I'll give away or sell any baseball cards I have of him."

There is no answer, per se. We could argue this, heatedly, until we are all blue in the face.

I watched Willie Mays on TV play my Cubs from 67-on. I liked him, respected him, and he was a great player. But in the clutch he fell apart like a Dollar General toy. A few years after he came to Frisco, he had yet to produce any of the New York numbers the fans thought they were going to see. The Frisco boo-birds let loose with tremendous booing. It got under Willie's skin. It got to the point where he asked and then demanded that owner Horace Stoneham move IN the outfield fence at the key areas where his long balls were hit. Mr. Stoneham complied. Can you imagine? The whining crybaby!

I believe the renovations were erected beginning with the 1961 season. Mr. Mays began to hit more home runs--it was very apparent the friendlier Candlestick Park right field porch was having a major effect upon the sensitive slugger. That year Willie hit 40 home runs; he would do so for several years after that. To be sure, Say Hey hit lottsa HRS at other ballparks, but I believe he began hitting more at home, and it was a confidence boost that helped him do better at the other parks.

Still, when the pressure was on during the '62 Series, Willie was a pricked balloon. Mick had an awful Series too, agreed. However, Mr. Mantle had so many other Series appearances where he came through this clutch time remarkably well--great Series performances! Even though they lost '60 and '64, Mickey helped make them so memorable, thrilling, and close by his spectacular play.

This will not count for some. I began collecting in 1961. I lived in a neutral area, the suburbs of Chicago. All the kids would be excited to get a Willie Mays baseball card, but they absolutely HAD to get Mickey Mantle's card in any given year. No one card, certainly not Willie Mays, was worth even up to Mickey Mantle in the hearts of all the kids I was around, and that was a lot of kids.

Most of you talk about Mantle as if he had lousy career hampered by booze, broads, and not taking care of himself. As teammate Hank Bauer retorted in frustration to someone expressing the same thing, look what he did anyway. The numbers are there. The many World Series rings were well-earned and his to wear.

Honestly, I believe if the Giants had remained in New York Willie would have produced much more impressive numbers. More so if Leo Durocher had remained his manager. The vast, and yet cozy Polo Grounds was tailor-made for Willie's extremely wide range. He could make impossible fielding plays, and make them look so exciting to watch. Sure, he did that at Frisco, but his hitting just didn't measure up or look as awe-inspiring as at Polo, where with his speed and its far reaches he turned many hits into doubles and triples. That kind of stuff made Mays a legend.

Guess I never came out and answered the question. I want Mickey Mantle!!!!

[skooter]

I've been watching baseball on TV since 1952, when I was 10 years old. The best all around player I've ever seen is Willie Mays.

[mr2686]

Duke Snider :D

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Getting on base, the Mick has a much higher OBP.

Pretty much every aspect (pre-injuries). His reports as a prospect remind of Bo Jackson. It's unreal, I glow when I read scouting reports on Mantle, I truly wish I could have seen them play.

[sycks22]

Ryan,

I argued this with you and Al two Cleveland Nationals ago (when Don Larsen got in a fight at the hotel bar) and you were just as wrong then as you are now. :) Hopefully Al has seen the light.

Mantle could hit the ball farther (BOTH WAYS) and could run faster. He had a stronger arm. Most importantly and by a wide margin, he was more CLUTCH.

Could run faster? Maybe before he blew his knee out early in his career. 153 to 338 in favor of Mays for stolen bases too doesn't help your cause.

[mr2686]

Caught stealing 38 to 103 in favor of Mantle.

[drc]

As was said in different words before, speculating what a player would have done if he was healthy or otherwise miss time is just that-- speculation. Mays' stats were real.

It's like when people say Babe Ruth would have been the best pitcher ever if he hadn't been moved to the outfield. Pure speculation, if not wishful thinking.

The Mantle/Mays question is a good one though in vaguery. Take which player when and for how long? For a career, obviously Mays. For a shorter period, I can see the arguement Mantle.

For the record, I'd pick Mays. He was the best all around (5 tool) player, which is something I'd want on my team.

Then after I picked Mays, I then you use my second draft pick to pick Mantle. See? It all works out.

[howard38]

.

[peterb69]

According to the Strat-o-matic Hall of Fame set, Mays is better. I picked him over Mantle to be on my Strat team.

[39special]

I have never seen either one play,but on what I have read Mays would be my pick.
I do alot of TTM's,and always ask questions.I wrote to J.W.Porter not to long ago.
He played from '52-'59 and asked him who the best all around player he ever saw was.

[bbsports]

If your looking at stats, it's Willie Mays. With the help of Joe DiMaggio in 1951, started a series of injuries for Mantle that carried him through his entire career. There's no telling what Mantle could have done if healthy.

[CMIZ5290]

If your looking at stats, it's Willie Mays. With the help of Joe DiMaggio in 1951, started a series of injuries for Mantle that carried him through his entire career. There's no telling what Mantle could have done if healthy.

Well said, totally agree....

[itjclarke]

Could run faster? Maybe before he blew his knee out early in his career. 153 to 338 in favor of Mays for stolen bases too doesn't help your cause.

I believe he did have the fastest home to first, home to 3rd, etc times ever recorded up to that point. That said, those were all hand times, which are pretty unreliable.
(I even ran a hand timed 4.6 40 yarder once, but I know damn well I was never truly 4.6 fast)

I still vote Mays by a long shot.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Mickey Mantle once admitted that Mays was the better of the two - or was Mickey just being overly modest?

[bfrench00]

11.2 1965 mays best season
11.3 1956 and 57, mantles best seasons

Mays a better career. mantle had more talent, just out partying too much and injury prone. mays didnt have the same off the field issues. if mantle used his head like mays, this wouldnt have been a conversation. mantle would be the BEST ATHLETE OF ALL TIME. when the mick was healthy and sober there was no one better, ever.

[sbfinley]

While you were busy assembling the case for Mays, Mantle homered twice and tore up Broadway.

[Runscott]

...mays didnt have the same off the field issues. if mantle used his head like mays, this wouldnt have been a conversation. mantle would be the BEST ATHLETE OF ALL TIME. when the mick was healthy and sober there was no one better, ever.

??? You mean if Mantle had drank less and gambled more? That would have been using his head.

[itjclarke]

Drinking/partying/injuries have to be fully taken into account when reviewing players' careers (unless the question were to specify, "who would you take at the beginning of their careers based on potential?", or "during their peak years". Mantle/Ruth and others were able to overcome their vices and have amazing HOF careers... But guys like Bobby Bonds (alcoholism), pegged as Willie Mays' heir, and countless others were not able to realize their full potential due to lifestyle/fluke injuries/death. I mean Brien Taylor might have been the next Sandy Koufax if he hadn't torn his rotator cuff in a bar brawl.

Adding- Still vote Mays.

[mr2686]

Mays had 2 mvp's and 12 gold gloves, while Mantle had 3 mvps 1 gold glove and a major league triple crown. Mays made the WS catch that took the wind out of Cleveland before they could even get going. Mantle made the WS catch to save Larson's perfect game.
I think either one would be a nice addition to your team as a centerfielder...until Paul Blair came along :D

[packs]

I would rather have Mickey. Besides being a great player and folk hero, he seems like he would have been fun to hang out with. Plus Willie played for the Mets rather than retire, so he doesn't have good judgement.

Edited to add I would definitely take Ken Griffey Jr. over both of them and we'd probably have a good time talking about that Simpsons episode.

[Runscott]

I would rather have Mickey. Besides being a great player and folk hero, he seems like he would have been fun to hang out with. Plus Willie played for the Mets rather than retire, so he doesn't have good judgement.

Do doubt he would have been more fun to hang out with, but so would Billy Martin. That last sentence above, is hilarious. I remember getting the Sports Illustrated in the mail that had a photo of Mays in a Mets uniform - it was surreal.

Edited to add I would definitely take Ken Griffey Jr. over both of them and we'd probably have a good time talking about that Simpsons episode.

Griffey provided two memorable 'I was at the game' moments for me: I saw his last HR, which was a Jeteresque quick whip over the right-field wall, and I was also at a game that he didn't start, where I turned to my girlfriend and said, "Hey, now you get to see Griffey!", knowing he was the appropriate PH in that situation. But alas, he was sleeping.

[Rickyy]

Can't go wrong with either guy....:D I'm still amazed Willie racked up a lot of impressive numbers stat wise and also played pretty good defense and catching a lot of tough balls playing in crappy, blustery Candlestick Park for all those years...

Ricky Y

[quinnsryche]

7 over 24

[EvilKing00]

Mays IMO was the better player, but thats no knock on mick.

[Exhibitman]

The question is context-dependent. If you are asking me to evaluate the Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays as prospects, I would take Mantle every time. He was rocket-fast and could hit with power from both sides. As a prospect he was a once in a lifetime player. After he tore up his knee, became an alcoholic, and started the cycle of abuse and injuries, his value sank quickly. Mays was not as great a prospect as Mantle but by the late 1950s had eclipsed Mantle in terms of value. Mantle's WAR numbers fell off dramatically after 1957. Mantle had 5 seasons with WAR > 8. Mays had 11 seasons with WAR > 8. By the time Mantle was 30 he was basically a good starting player. Mays was an exceptional player until he was 35 and a good starting player until he reached 40. As peak players, Mantle was measurably better. Mays's line for his greatest year [1954]:

1954 151 641 565 119 195 33 13 41 110 8 5 66 57 .345 .411 .667 1.078

WAR: 10.6

Mays had a higher WAR in 1965 [11.2] and his line there wasn't too shabby either:

1965 157 638 558 118 177 21 3 52 112 9 4 76 71 .317 .398 .645 1.043

Mantle's line for his [1956]:

1956 150 652 533 132 188 22 5 52 130 10 1 112 99 .353 .464 .705 1.169

WAR: 11.3

Of course, until either of them can go 18-8, 23-12 and 24-13 and pitch 31 innings with a 0.87 ERA in the World Series, and hit .342 with 714 HRs, neither of them is fit to carry Babe Ruth's bag.

[HRBAKER]

I'd rather have Mays on my team and rather go drinking with Mickey.

[Tao_Moko]

Man, this is tough. I'm going with Mantle because his triple crown year was amazing. I have to keep it that simple or I'll change my mind.

[CW]

I have never seen either one play,but on what I have read Mays would be my pick.
I do alot of TTM's,and always ask questions.I wrote to J.W.Porter not to long ago.
He played from '52-'59 and asked him who the best all around player he ever saw was.

Damn, what a cool letter on many levels. He was kind enough to fill up the entire space with his answers, he named both players in this thread as #1 and #2, he loved Tiger Stadium (the coolest ballpark ever :cool: ), and he finishes the letter off with a poignant note.... "Thanks for remembering"

Thanks for posting.

[pepis]

One was a champion and the other wasn't

i saw them both play a lot however i did see Willie more often!

that's right i saw the Dodgers consistently take out Willie
and go out to loose to Mickey.

[Exhibitman]

C'mon Jose, it is a team sport. Dimaggio's Yankees won 10 pennants in his 13 active years. Is he better than Mays?

By that logic, Ernie Banks and Ted Willams stank on ice.

[ElCabron]

The Yankees won 3 championships in the 4 years immediately PRIOR to Mantle's arrival. So they were kinda good without him.

Still, Mantle's World Series hitting should absolutely be considered. And being the best player on the best team does mean something. But none of that, or having been a great prospect at one point, adds up to him being better than Mays. And for the record, I am not a Mays guy.

Career WAR:

Mays 156.1
Mantle 109.7

-Ryan

[Jlighter]

Career WAR:

Mays 156.1
Mantle 109.7

-Ryan

Career WAR isn't a good statistic to throw out there. It highly favors players who have longer careers. A much better one is avg. WAR per season.

Cy Young has the second highest career WAR, not many would argue he is the second best player ever.

[ElCabron]

I wouldn't even argue that Cy Young is one of the top 10 pitchers of all-time. The first part of his career was spent in a statistically different era. The second part in the dead ball era. His numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. One of the greats, without question. Doesn't even belong in the discussion of "greatest," in my opinion. I know that will be an unpopular view on this board.

I get the point about looking at average yearly performance vs. aggregate numbers, but there is also something to be said for sustained excellence. I'm not talking about mere longevity. No one is trying to say Jim Kaat was better than Sandy Koufax. But Mantle would have to have been MUCH better than Mays on the average to make up for how far behind his career numbers are. And he just wasn't.

I'm assuming you consider Mark McGwire to be the all-time home run king, right? He's the all-time career leader in HR per AB.

-Ryan

[itjclarke]

Career WAR isn't a good statistic to throw out there. It highly favors players who have longer careers. A much better one is avg. WAR per season.

Cy Young has the second highest career WAR, not many would argue he is the second best player ever.

I think WAR is a pretty shaky, overvalued, over calculated stat that attempts to yield an oversimplified number.. This is just my opinion of course, but it reminds me of those annoying BCS formulas. I'd rather just make my own determination, while looking at 5-10 key stats.. and of course ideally see the guy play.

[Mark]

Can't go wrong with either guy....:D I'm still amazed Willie racked up a lot of impressive numbers stat wise and also played pretty good defense and catching a lot of tough balls playing in crappy, blustery Candlestick Park for all those years...

Ricky Y

This is on the money. Mays played in a park with swirling winds that killed home runs---but he was still Willie Mays. Best player of his era.

[Jlighter]

I wouldn't even argue that Cy Young is one of the top 10 pitchers of all-time. The first part of his career was spent in a statistically different era. The second part in the dead ball era. His numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. One of the greats, without question. Doesn't even belong in the discussion of "greatest," in my opinion. I know that will be an unpopular view on this board.

I get the point about looking at average yearly performance vs. aggregate numbers, but there is also something to be said for sustained excellence. I'm not talking about mere longevity. No one is trying to say Jim Kaat was better than Sandy Koufax. But Mantle would have to have been MUCH better than Mays on the average to make up for how far behind his career numbers are. And he just wasn't.

I'm assuming you consider Mark McGwire to be the all-time home run king, right? He's the all-time career leader in HR per AB.

-Ryan

You're right in the point of sustained excellence being a factor.

I guess the question might need some refinement.

Does Better=Talent?

If so the answer is Mantle.

Or is it more total numbers/career based?

If we were to give Mays a polygraph test and ask him if he would rather have 600+ HRs 3000+ hits and one championship or Mantle's numbers and seven championships what do you think his answer would be?

[dabigyankeeman]

In the 1950's i lived across the street from a scout for the Phillies, and this was before Mantle's leg got really bad, and he said the word in baseball was that Mickey was better than Mays, but it was damn close.

Obviously once Mantle's legs got almost crippled, Mays was better. I feel a healthy Mantle was a little bit better than Mays. But as a Yankee fan i admit that i am prejudiced.

[Sean]

I just want to add some pictures to what is a great thread:

96938

[midwaylandscaping]

Even as a Yankee fan, I still say Mays

[obcbobd]

Mays

Mantle MIGHT have had more talent and MIGHT have accomplished more if he'd taken better care of himself.

But he didn't

[CW]

Nice cards, Sean! You've inspired me, too. :)

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfolderscf/cw/cwcollection/53%20mantle%20mays.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgallery/memberfolderscf/cw/cwcollection/62%20bowman%20mays%20mantle.jpg

[ullmandds]

I agree with much that has been said...mickey was more dominant when healthy...and did have how many world series rings? 7 or 8?...but Mays had a longer...more fruitful career numberswise!

[Delray Vintage]

Both great players, but Mays did it much longer, Mantle was and is more of a legend based on yankee status. Had I had to choose one in their prime I would take Mantle. Of course Mays stayed great into his late 30's, Mantle lost his skills at 34 or so.

[Theo_450]

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I recently learned of Mantle's medical condition that was discovered in high school. He was playing football when he got kicked in the shin. If it weren't for the newly available antibiotic penicillin, his leg would have been amputated. Osteomyelitis is a bone disease that he struggled with his entire career. In those days, he self medicated with booze (it was that, or morphine). Not trying to glorify him over Mays (and definitely not his drinking), but they were both truly great. I feel this is important information about the Mick that I have not seen anyone else bring up.

I hit a triple once. I felt pretty good about that.

[Theo_450]

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but I recently learned of Mantle's medical condition that was discovered in high school. He was playing football when he got kicked in the shin. If it weren't for the newly available antibiotic penicillin, his leg would have been amputated. Osteomyelitis is a bone disease that he struggled with his entire career. In those days, he self medicated with booze (it was that, or morphine). Not trying to glorify him over Mays (and definitely not his drinking), but they were both truly great. I feel this is important information about the Mick that I have not seen anyone else bring up.

I hit a triple once. I felt pretty good about that.

Tried to edit and add this. Couldn't do it, so I had to quote myself.

[GoldenAge50s]

Sports are full of the "what if" arguments, but because of WHAT Mickey accomplished w/ the bad health he had from Day One to the end of his career, it just doesn't apply here.

It's a "given" that he would have overshadowed Mays in just about every category had he had the health that Aaron, Mays, Musial, Banks, Kaline, et al. were blessed with because of what he DID do for 18 yrs.

(Another example where the "what if" doesn't apply is the career of Ted Williams and the 5 yrs lost while in service. Because of what he DID do from beginning to end, you can safely add figures for those 5 yrs and know it would have happened.)

Mickey over Mays and maybe the most electrifying player ever!

[MattyC]

That's hilarious. You mean the series where Mays hit .250 with no HR and 1 RBI? Wow, epic.

True Mantle stunk in that series. But whose team won? Mays played in 4 World Series and hit zero home runs with 6 RBI, batting under .240. Mantle played in 3 World Series with no home runs; of course he also played in 9 others with 18 Home Runs and 40 RBI . Seven World's Championships to 1, and 12 World Series to 4. We're supposed to focus on what actually happened and not what could have, right? Scoreboard.

A previous poster correctly noted that Mantle's peak years--12 seasons-were notably better than Mays. That sample size is large enough for me, and other than possibly Dimaggio's 1937 season, I do not believe any CF could match Mickey's 1956 campaign. I would like to hear from those who played against both, especially pitchers. I doubt it would be close. Mantle was pitched very carefully, and walked more than 100 times in 10 seasons, including his broken down final two. Mays walked 100 times or more exactly once in 22 years.

I'm with this guy. Mays has better career totals, yes-- but his peak wasn't on Mantle's level. I'd take peak and postseason performance over longevity, because you can win titles with peaks as high as Mantle's were, and with WS performances like that. And winning titles is what you play for.

How about looking at their 162 game averages? They are virtually deadlocked in this regard, with numbers so similar it is almost eerie-- except Mantle has a pretty substantial lead in OBP, BB, OPS(+).

[itjclarke]

I'm with this guy. Mays has better career totals, yes-- but his peak wasn't on Mantle's level. I'd take peak and postseason performance over longevity, because you can win titles with peaks as high as Mantle's were, and with WS performances like that. And winning titles is what you play for.

How about looking at their 162 game averages? They are virtually deadlocked in this regard, with numbers so similar it is almost eerie-- except Mantle has a pretty substantial lead in OBP, BB, OPS(+).

I went onto Baseball Reference and averaged out what I thought to be each players' peak years, a relatively short 8 season window (1955-1962) for Mantle and a longer 12 season (1954-1965) window for Mays. Their numbers are nearly dead on.

HR R RBI AVE. SB OBP SLUG
40 118 109 .318 22 .392 .605 -- Mays
40 119 101 .314 14 .445 .616 -- Mantle


You can say Mantle had a slight edge because he got on base more often, but his peak is not "notably better" (responding to quote that's quoted in above post)... and Mays did more once he got on base, averaging 8 more steals per year. Just for fun, if you count an SB as a total base (a steal is just as valuable as a double), it would raise his OPS by more than 10 points. Then shift to defense and take a look at outfield assists during their respective peak years. Mantle had highs of 11 and 10 assists, which is respectable, but Mays had highs of 23, 17, 15, 14, 13, 12 and 11 during his peak seasons. His 5th tool definitely came in handy... and I'm guessing saved several runs.

I think had Mays played in 12 WS, he might have compiled more respectable postseason numbers. However, during his peak years the NL was absolutely LOADED. The Giants were always good, but had to content yearly with the Dodgers, Cards, Braves among others, while the Yankees were unparallelled in the AL during Mantle's prime. As is, Mays played in 4 series and batted .247... as compared to Mantle's .257 (give me Ruth or Reggie over both of them:D).

Regardless it is a very very close call.

[SteveMitchell]

Excellence and longevity wins for me! If I were a club owner or general manager, I'd take the guy who was outstanding for the longest period. In this debate, it would clearly be Willie Mays. In another posting, Ted Williams (over Joe DiMaggio).

[Edward]

Mick put more fans in the seats, I think. I'll go with Mick.

[Tanman7baseball]

You can have all of the talent in the world, but if you can't harness it and actually use it, it's pointless. Willie Mays wins this one. The question you pose isn't who had the most talent, but who was better. Mays was better than Mantle as his career numbers clearly show.

Beautifully said. I know too many ballplayers in college and pro ball that had all the talent in the world but threw it away because of drugs, alcohol, and/or lack of determination... But I have to say if the Commerce Comet stayed healthy and had an extra an extra 3,000 plate appearances he would of done some unbelievable things. Mantle had a lot of freak accidents that hindered his career dramatically. Mickey Mantle wins my vote because I'm bias :)

[Tanman7baseball]

WILLIE MAYS
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)
Black Ink Batting - 57 (21), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 337 (8), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 376 (5), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 76 (3), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Center Field (1st), 156.1 career WAR/73.6 7yr-peak WAR/114.8 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 70.5 career WAR/44.1 7yr-peak WAR/57.3 JAWS

VS.

MICKEY MANTLE
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)
Black Ink Batting - 62 (15), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink Batting - 272 (17), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 300 (15), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 65 (22), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Center Field (4th), 109.7 career WAR/64.8 7yr-peak WAR/87.2 JAWS
Average HOF CF (out of 18) = 70.5 career WAR/44.1 7yr-peak WAR/57.3 JAWS

(JAWS is what I go off of)

[travrosty]

Mickey mantle was one of the fastest players to ever play major league baseball.

[Mark]

Mays and it's not all that close. His WARP # is so high because he was hitting like a demon against National League pitching during the 1960's.

[travrosty]

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/05/willie_mays_tur.php

some comparisons to chew on.

[itjclarke]

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/05/willie_mays_tur.php

some comparisons to chew on.

I think the point that Willie's stature grows in part because of people's disgust of Barry Bonds is ridiculous. Mays has been revered and accepted as one of the greatest ever for decades. If anyone has gotten a public boost due to Bonds negative press, its Aaron, though Aaron absolutely deserves all (and much more) credit that he gets.

I think it is also silly that the author conveniently choses the 9 seasons Mantle was at his "physical peak" for comparison with Mays. Unfortunately those 9 seasons happen to exclude Mays' 1965 MVP season. This was possibly his best year ever, one in which he hit 52 HRs in a very tough HR ballpark, against guys like Drysdale/Koufax/Gibson/Bunning/etc. Seems like a pretty skewed comparison when you exclude a players' best year.

It also starts in 1954, basically Mays' 2nd season (following nearly 2 years military service). Mays did win the MVP and a WS in his 2nd full season, so it clearly didn't take him long to acclimate to the ML and become a top 3-5 player. I suspect however that the author chose these years not simply because both players were at their "physical peak", but mostly because they are clearly the years when Mantle was at peak production. If "physical peak" is the key, then why not start right in 1951 before Mantle's first major knee injury in that year's WS? Why exclude Mantle's healthy 1951/1952/1953 seasons? They were respectable seasons and he got better each year, eventually progressing into player he'd become. Probably because Mantle didn't begin producing at an MVP caliber until 1955. Per my earlier post, if you want to compare their peak production, just take Mantle's 1955-1962 and Mays' 1954-1965 average seasons. They're nearly dead on, Mantle beats him in OPS.. Mays steals more bases and does a whole lot more in CF.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mantle. My dad grew up in Oklahoma, watched him play minor league ball and from the time I was about 6, told me stories about about how amazing an athlete he was before his knees went on him. I also think at peak production, he compares well with Mays... but this article uses very one sided tactics to make its point.

[Fred]

Mays.

[mr2686]

If the question is who had the better stats at the end of the day, then yes Mays wins hands down. If, however, you're looking for the player you'd want on your team, then it's Mantle all the way. Johnny Blanchard once said, and I'll paraphrase, "you knew you could never be as good as him, but brother, he made you want to go out and try". I've never heard anyone say that of Mays.

[hammer]

I wanna see Mays bat lefthanded.

[itjclarke]

I wanna see Mays bat lefthanded.

How Babe Ruth and Ted Williams right handed while we're at it

[GiantsDude24]

Hands down Mays was a better player and excelled for a much longer time then Mantle. He had 5 tool skills and hit for power and average. Mantle was a stud in his own right and could hit the ball a ton. Mays was quicker, the better fielder and had greater career longevity. Mantle had the health and drinking problems the latter of which was his own doing. So many "what-ifs" unfortunately for his career.
In terms of who I would rather have on my team it would have to be the Mick, great character, very personable and was just an all around great dude. New York fans loved him like a god.

[tedzan]

That is an age old question as to who was the better ballplayer. As a an avid BB fan since 1947, I have been fortunate to see all three of them play
from their rookie year to their retirement.

As a Yankees fan, obviously I favor Mickey. In retrospect, all three were great in their inimitable way.

However, for sheer drama, Mantle leads the pack. Events like seeing the Mick hitting a 565-foot HR that cleared the CF wall at old Griffith Stadium
is incomparable.

Or, seeing Mickey hit a Grand-Slam in the 1953 World Series to beat the Dodgers is something the other two guys never did.

Or, when Mickey ran down Gil Hodges' drive to the Monuments in deep left-center field of Yankee Stadium in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series
to preserve Don Larsen's Perfect game.

I leave you guys with this question......
Whose "footsteps" did Willie or the Duke replace ?

Mickey stepped into the footsteps of a "LEGEND"....and, trust me that is one of the toughest things in BB to do and to succeed ! !

There is only one other ballplayer (since WWII) that has accomplished that fete (excuse the pun).....Can you name him ? ?


TED Z
__________________________________________________ ______________________
LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set

AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....MARQUARD
McGRAW (port-cap).....McQUILLAN (bat).....TINKER (bat off).....WILTSE (port-cap)

[itjclarke]

Yaz?

[tedzan]

Yes, it's Yaz.

I could be wrong; but, I think Yaz and Mickey are the only guys to replace "LEGENDS" in BB and succeed to the extent that they did.


TED Z

[the 'stache]

The area where Mays wins the argument is his defense. Otherwise, if we're talking offensive production, the "clearly Mays was better" argument is specious at best. Not so fast.

Consider the 162 game averages for their careers:

Mays .302 AVG, 36 HR, 103 RBI, .384 OBP, .557 SLG, .941 OPS, OPS+ 156
Mantle .298, 36 HR, 102 RBI, .421 OBP, .557 SLG, .977 OPS, OPS+ 172

Mantle won three MVP Awards
Mays won two

Mantle won the 1956 Triple Crown. Mays never led the league in RBI, so he never won the Triple Crown

Mantle, though he played four fewer seasons, won more home run titles, four to three

Each player won the batting title once

Mays led his league in runs scored twice. Mantle five times

Mays walked over 100 times in a seasons once, in 1971 when he led the league. Mantle walked over 100 times in a season on ten separate occasions, leading his league five times. Conversely, Mays never led the league in strike outs, and only struck out 100 or more in a seasons once. Mantle struck out over 100 eight times, leading the league in whiffs five times.

Mays led his league in OPS + six times. Mantle led in OPS+ eight times.

Though Mays hit more career home runs, he averaged a homer every 16.48 at bats. Mantle averaged a home run every 15.11 at bats.

When their OPS is adjusted by the ballparks they played in, Mantle clearly comes out on top.

Mays was the far better base stealer, and there's no comparison. But oddly enough, Mantle was the more successful base stealer by the percentages. Mays stole 338 bases in 441 tries (76.64%). Mantle stole 153 bases in 191 attempts (80.10%).

The one thing to keep in mind about Mantle is that he tore his knee up as a rookie tripping over a sprinkler head in the 1951 World Series. He was never the same after that. When he came into the league, Mantle was the fastest man in the league bar none. In a foot race, he'd have left Willie Mays in the dust. That affected his base stealing, as well as his defense. Now, I can't hold that against Willie Mays. There's something to be said about staying relatively healthy, and playing longer. But Mantle's knee injury was not due to negligence on his part. His late-night carousing had nothing to do with that injury, at least.

If I were forced to pick one player of the two, I'd pick Mantle by the slimmest of margins. In his prime, he was the better player. He was not as decorated in the field, but Mantle managed to hit 536 home runs with injuries that would have kept most players off the field. How he managed to do that is a question that will float around in the back of my head until the day they bury me.

[irishdenny]

2 of the best of all time, but I would have to go with the Mick...

Hey Kev,

Can You still Start the Poll Option?
I would really Like to See who the Crowd will Roar Louder for!

May a NeW Thread!?

[CMIZ5290]

Hey Kev,

Can You still Start the Poll Option?
I would really Like to See who the Crowd will Roar Louder for!

May a NeW Thread!?

I agree with the poll. not sure I know how to do it however!

[tedzan]

As a Yankees fan, obviously I favor Mickey. In retrospect, all three were great in their inimitable way.

However, for sheer drama, Mantle leads the pack. Events like seeing the Mick hitting a 565-foot HR that cleared the CF wall at old Griffith Stadium
is incomparable.

Or, seeing Mickey hit a Grand-Slam in the 1953 World Series to beat the Dodgers is something the other two guys never did.

Or, when Mickey ran down Gil Hodges' drive to the Monuments in deep left-center field of Yankee Stadium in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series
to preserve Don Larsen's Perfect game.


Furthermore, I could run-up this thread to 200 posts re-telling the excitement generated by Mickey Mantle (which I saw in person or on TV). I'll just add this event......

Probably, the most tremendous HR hit by Mickey occurred 50 years ago (next month) at Yankee Stadium. In the 11th inning vs the Kansas City A's, Mick blasted a HR
that hit the RF facade 102 feet above the field. The point of impact was 363 feet from Home Plate. Some witnesses claimed the trajectory of the ball was still rising
upon impact. Others said it had reached it's apex. In any event, had this drive cleared the Stadium's roof, it was projected that it would have traveled 600+ feet.

I have the May 23rd 1963 New York News front page depiction of this event....but, it is somewhere in my archives and I have not yet found it. Perhaps some one on
this forum has the picture of this blast (or a link to it).



Their personalities at signing events............


............................ FRIENDLY .................................................. SOUR-PUSS .............................................. A REAL GENTLEMAN

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/52TMantleMaysxSnider53B_zpsfaba34d7.jpg




TED Z
__________________________________________________ ______________________
LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set

AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....MARQUARD
McGRAW (port-cap).....McQUILLAN (bat).....TINKER (bat off).....WILTSE (port-cap)

[Jlighter]

Here you go Mr. Z.:)

http://www.hittrackeronline.com/historic.php?id=1963_3

[Exhibitman]

Another way to parse the issue is to ask who you would sign to a long-term contract as a free agent.

And WTF:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/1957%20Mantle.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/websize/1954%20Topps%20Mays.jpg

[Paul S]

Another way to parse the issue is to ask who you would sign to a long-term contract as a free agent.

Depends upon which part of their respective career and how long the contract. I think Bonilla got the best of both of them! :D

[tedzan]

Here you go Mr. Z.:)

http://www.hittrackeronline.com/historic.php?id=1963_3


Thanks for the link, Jake

I've read thru all 100+ posts in this thread. Lots, and lots of numbers. However Jake, crunching all these stats cannot really tell the story of these two great players,
as anyone who actually saw them play can. I was very fortunate as a kid, growing up near New York City, during the late 1940's and the decade of the 1950's when
the Yankees, Dodgers, and Giants dominated the BB scene. Furthermore, when you reach my age, your memory starts regressing back to your youth....and, most of
those great BB years from my youth are very clear in my mind.



http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/tedzan77/1952BxMaysMantle50x_zpsa57f3cbd.jpg



TED Z

__________________________________________________ ______________________
LOOKING FOR these T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set

AMES....CAMNITZ....CRAWFORD (bat)....DOYLE (port)....JORDAN (bat)....MARQUARD
McGRAW (port-cap).....McQUILLAN (bat).....TINKER (bat off).....WILTSE (port-cap)