Who was better, who would you take, Joe DiMaggio or Ted Williams?

[CMIZ5290]

Talking about all facets of the game. This has always been an intriguing discussion with all of my older family members. Please weigh in with your opinions

[rhettyeakley]

Ted Williams all day long!

Ted is IMO one of the few (5-10) that is in the argument of "greatest baseball player ever" and if he didn't miss as much time as he did by being in the military he would be even higher on most peoples lists.

[Eric72]

Talking about all facets of the game

Personally, I would take DiMaggio.

Williams may lay claim to the best hitter of all time, or maybe second best behind Ruth. However, his fielding was not nearly so good.

DiMaggio excelled in all aspects of the game.

Just my opinion...I am sure others will disagree, and that's fine.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Cardboard Junkie]

Joltin Joe All The Way! Plus he bagged Marilyn, that alone would be enough to rank him far above the splinter. :) Dave.

[HRBAKER]

Ted, but Joe has better cards.

[snider4prez]

Williams!!! Best swing in baseball EVER!!!! No contest IMO

[Eric72]

Joltin Joe All The Way! Plus he bagged Marilyn, that alone would be enough to rank him far above the splinter. :) Dave.

I wasn't going to mention this; however, since you brought it up, I imagine it does speak to DiMaggio's better overall "performance."

:D

[Cardboard Junkie]

I wasn't going to mention this; however, since you brought it up, I imagine it does speak to DiMaggio's better overall "performance."

:D

Who would think that such humor could spring forth from the suburbs of Philadelphia. Will wonders ever cease? Excellent! Dave.:D

[RCMcKenzie]

When I was a sophomore in college, a 102 English teacher told us to write a 5 page persuasive paper on any subject. My paper was titled "Ted Williams is the greatest hitter of all time". I got an "A", but she wasn't a baseball fan and was known for handing out a lot of "A"'s

[quinnsryche]

Having never seen either play and not going strictly by stats I would choose DiMaggio for his championship pedigree, respected as a teammate, beloved by the fans and the media. Ted was from all reports, surly, unapproachable and a general douche to everyone. I really think the off field stuff should be taken into account, not just record book stuff.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it.:)

[itjclarke]

Personally, I would take DiMaggio.

Williams may lay claim to the best hitter of all time, or maybe second best behind Ruth. However, his fielding was not nearly so good.

DiMaggio excelled in all aspects of the game.



I agree. Though I've always liked Williams more, his crazy bad ass military record included (flew combat in the same squadron as astronaut John Glenn!!), I'd have to take Joe D's all around game. If I could know in advance Williams would play into his 40s, I'd probably change my mind.. But if we're talking peak 5-7 years, or basing this on a GM making a decision at the beginning of their careers, its Joe D. DiMaggio by all accounts was a tremendous outfielder, and playing center made him the anchor of that outfield. Too much value added there to overlook.

[rhettyeakley]

Isn't it always that whoever is the best Yankee at the time is the greatest living baseball player by the media and fans of the period (of whom a majority are/were Yankee fans)...

Babe Ruth (probably accurate) followed by Lou Gehrig, followed by Joe DiMaggio, followed by Mickey Mantle, then some lean years, followed by Don Mattingly for a short time, followed by Derek Jeter!

Joe benefitted from being a media darling in the media center of the world, while the same didn't hold true for Williams. Williams started out as a surly guy, Joe just died that way.

[earlywynnfan]

Having never seen either play and not going strictly by stats I would choose DiMaggio for his championship pedigree, respected as a teammate, beloved by the fans and the media. Ted was from all reports, surly, unapproachable and a general douche to everyone. I really think the off field stuff should be taken into account, not just record book stuff.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it.:)

I think you have this backwards. The Dago was a sonofabitch to everyone who didn't kiss his royal arse. If that team wasn't stacked, they would have thrown him overboard. Would you want to share a clubhouse with a guy who wouldn't sign a baseball for your kid?? There are players who talked to someone DiMag didn't like, so he gave them the silent treatment for the rest of their life!
TSW was loud, obnoxious, and decidedly anti-establishment, but I don't recall hearing his teammates say they wouldn't want him on the team. Sure, Joe's teammates wouldn't say that, either, but that's because they enjoyed those WS checks.


While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me how "DiMaggio never had to dive for a ball" is a positive thing. Sure, I understand positioning and speed, but I'm supposed to believe that a ball never dropped just out of his reach? Think of all those fantastic diving plays Jim Edmonds used to make; are you telling me Joe would've gotten those without diving just because of his "positioning"??

TSW, for the sheer offense he provided, plus he might actually make you laugh in the dugout.

Ken

[mr2686]

I don't think you could go wrong with either. Dimaggio lost 3 years to Military service in his prime plus retired at 36, so it's not hard to imagine him getting 500 hr's without that...yes yes, plus he bagged Marilyn and I shook his hand, so I have that connection.:D As for Williams, he lost all or parts of 5 years to military service (and he was frickin' John Wayne in real life) so kudo's to him, and it's very easy to imagine him making a serious run at Ruth's HR record without that.

[sbfinley]

You can't really lose if you have the second pick in this draft. Personally I'd take Joe D, but I have a personal connection to him through my grandfather.

[MW1]

Lifetime WAR -- http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

Williams #11
Dimaggio #41


Single-season WAR -- http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml

Williams top 3: #21, #25, #25 (tie)
Dimaggio top 3: #116, #226, #245

Since WAR includes both offensive and defensive statistics, it would seem that Williams, by a significant margin, was the superior player.

[billyb]

Ted was the better hitter, by far, but Joe the better fielder and better teammate, but not by much. So all around, it is a close call. I think Terrible Ted gets the edge, but not by much.

To EarlyWynnFan,
I don't remember many, if any, outfielders diving for balls like these outfielders have done in this more modern era. I watched Kaline play outfield for almost 20years, and never remember him diving. The shoestring catch and then rolling over was the closest they got. I don't think I can count on one hand, the diving plays made in the 50s 60s era. Willie Mays made one of the best catches ever, with his back to the field, and that was about as far as they went. I am not sure, but I believe they were taught that the ball does not get by them, so they would allow the single instead of taking the chance and letting the ball go through them. A missed play would get you benched.

[EvilKing00]

Ted would be my choice.

[Gradedcardman]

Was good but Ted was incredible

[Peter_Spaeth]

Williams, clearly.

[MVSNYC]

I think you have this backwards. The Dago was a sonofabitch to everyone who didn't kiss his royal arse. If that team wasn't stacked, they would have thrown him overboard. Would you want to share a clubhouse with a guy who wouldn't sign a baseball for your kid?? There are players who talked to someone DiMag didn't like, so he gave them the silent treatment for the rest of their life!
TSW was loud, obnoxious, and decidedly anti-establishment, but I don't recall hearing his teammates say they wouldn't want him on the team. Sure, Joe's teammates wouldn't say that, either, but that's because they enjoyed those WS checks.


While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me how "DiMaggio never had to dive for a ball" is a positive thing. Sure, I understand positioning and speed, but I'm supposed to believe that a ball never dropped just out of his reach? Think of all those fantastic diving plays Jim Edmonds used to make; are you telling me Joe would've gotten those without diving just because of his "positioning"??

TSW, for the sheer offense he provided, plus he might actually make you laugh in the dugout.

Ken

Ken- FYI, this is a derogatory term towards Italians.

[murcerfan]

Mantle

[t206blogcom]

Williams has my vote.

[jimm]

I'm more of a Joe D guy, probably the SF ties and what not, both greats, but you made me choose :)

[egbeachley]

I wasn't going to mention this; however, since you brought it up, I imagine it does speak to DiMaggio's better overall "performance."

:D

Could only keep her for a year. Must not have performed so great afterall :D

Easily Ted, even overcoming the fact that he was not approachable by the media. Had he been, or played in NY, it wouldn't even be a question.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, Ted surely was an asshole.

http://www.jimmyfund.org/abo/red/tedwilliams/facts.asp

[conor912]

Oy. Splitting hairs here. Williams was a better hitter hands down. Joe edges out Ted as an overall player. That said, DiMaggio pussied out at age 36 before he started to decline whereas as Williams stuck it out to age 42. Maybe that makes Joe smarter or maybe it makes him a pansy....your decision. However, if we're strictly comparing their respective primes, I would take Williams and sacrifice a little defense for arguably the best hitter of all time.

[Eric72]

Williams was a better hitter hands down. Joe edges out Ted as an overall player.

Conor,

I completely agree with this.

Best,

Eric

[Cooper1927]

I'm a Yankee fan but I'd pick Williams. He lasted a lot longer than DiMaggio did.

14 years (minus war years) vs 21 years (minus war years) and was productive all the way to the end of his career.

[drmondobueno]

I'll take Ted hitting .406 all day long.

[Shoele$$]

This isn't even close.....Teddy F'kn Ballgame every time.

[yanksfan09]

Oy. Splitting hairs here. Williams was a better hitter hands down. Joe edges out Ted as an overall player. That said, DiMaggio pussied out at age 36 before he started to decline whereas as Williams stuck it out to age 42. Maybe that makes Joe smarter or maybe it makes him a pansy....your decision. However, if we're strictly comparing their respective primes, I would take Williams and sacrifice a little defense for arguably the best hitter of all time.

Yankee fan here but Williams was definitely the better hitter. However, I think it's pretty weak to say a guy "pussied out" by retiring at age 36. He felt he was done and wanted to walk away with class and that's pussying out? I don't get it. He wasn't obligated to prove anymore to anyone and walked away with his Championship rings. I don't think it makes him smarter by walking away but it doesn't make him a pansy either for sure. Every guy ages differently and when a guys done, he's done. No need to put them down for it.

[dabigyankeeman]

Joe had bad heel problems, and other leg problems which prompted him to retire at a young age. But mainly, his power was to left-center, and the home runs he lost in Yankee Stadium were a killer.

I'll take Joe in the outfield, and Ted as my DH. :)

[AMBST95]

Ted's bat far out shadowed the difference in their fielding ability. Williams is the easy pick for this reason.

[Peter W Thomas]

Williams +++. Lost almost 5 prime years to 2 wars, by far the best hitter of my lifetime. Played Left Field in Fenway pretty well. I saw his last HR when I was a MIT freshman, and got a hands on fly fishing lessen from him at the sportman's show in 1954 or 1955. I miss him and so do the sox.

[Paul S]

As a life-long Yankee fan...I have to get honest and answer Williams. When you can hit like...WOW!!

[bbsports]

Of the two, Ted Williams, but I prefer Stan the Man Musial. Stan was a class act to the game of baseball.

[bigtrain]

Though I am a life long Yankee fan, I would pick Ted Williams. Better hitter. Much longer career. Neither was a really personable guy. The media kissed up to DiMaggio and hated Williams, with good reason I guess. I attended a lot of old-timers games in the sixties and seventies and it always annoyed me that Joe D insisted on being announced as "the greatest living ballplayer. When was he ever that? Babe Ruth died in 1948 but Cobb lived to 1961 and certainly by the late 60s, Willie Mays was clearly better than DiMaggio.

[Forever Young]

Though I am a life long Yankee fan, I would pick Ted Williams. Better hitter. Much longer career. Neither was a really personable guy. The media kissed up to DiMaggio and hated Williams, with good reason I guess. I attended a lot of old-timers games in the sixties and seventies and it always annoyed me that Joe D insisted on being announced as "the greatest living ballplayer. When was he ever that? Babe Ruth died in 1948 but Cobb lived to 1961 and certainly by the late 60s, Willie Mays was clearly better than DiMaggio.

I agree..Dimaggio was unto himself pretty good(media loved it and the stories(marilyn). Although clearly Dimaggio was in the war too.. Ted Williams was a man's man... two wars, hunter, fisher..no bs. Ted Williams was the man.

I know Dimaggio and Mantle has been well documented. Read the article on post #657. I think this is how these guys truly were.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=117391&page=2
real 657

[TUM301]

I think you have this backwards. The Dago was a sonofabitch to everyone who didn't kiss his royal arse. If that team wasn't stacked, they would have thrown him overboard. Would you want to share a clubhouse with a guy who wouldn't sign a baseball for your kid?? There are players who talked to someone DiMag didn't like, so he gave them the silent treatment for the rest of their life!
TSW was loud, obnoxious, and decidedly anti-establishment, but I don't recall hearing his teammates say they wouldn't want him on the team. Sure, Joe's teammates wouldn't say that, either, but that's because they enjoyed those WS checks.


While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me how "DiMaggio never had to dive for a ball" is a positive thing. Sure, I understand positioning and speed, but I'm supposed to believe that a ball never dropped just out of his reach? Think of all those fantastic diving plays Jim Edmonds used to make; are you telling me Joe would've gotten those without diving just because of his "positioning"??

TSW, for the sheer offense he provided, plus he might actually make you laugh in the dugout.

KenAfter reading books on both, have to agree with much of this statement. Ted had the bad rep, yes always at war with the "Knights of the Keyboards" and Dimaggio was untouchable in NYC. After learning more about both men I too learned I`d had Ted all wrong. When maybe the best hitter of all time says, the proudest moment of my life was the time I spent flying missions in service of my country, it makes a sports fan take notice. Lastly, my father who saw both and knew his baseball always told me "hands down Williams" really sealed the deal for me. As mentioned by a previous poster, After Ruth Stan the Man has to be in this equation. My 2 cents..

[Jlighter]

I attended a lot of old-timers games in the sixties and seventies and it always annoyed me that Joe D insisted on being announced as "the greatest living ballplayer. When was he ever that? Babe Ruth died in 1948 but Cobb lived to 1961 and certainly by the late

In 1969 he was voted the greatest living player.

[Sean]

In 1969 he was voted the greatest living player.

And he insisted on being described that way during introductions.

[Ladder7]

Ted. And he's coming back too, you'll see.

[mr2686]

If Ted came back today he'd only be a .280 hitter...of course, he'd be 95.

[D. Bergin]

Another Yankee fan here, with a little bit more respect for Williams.

Sure, Ted was surly with the media during the time he was playing ball, but I believe a good lot of Boston athletes had a tough time with the media up there. When you're not winning and you have an inferiority complex with New York, I think it breeds contempt towards their own when you're not bringing home titles.

Just think of all the athletes they've alienated over the years since Ted retired. Jim Rice, Roger Clemens, Wade Boggs..........they completely picked apart the historic seasons Wes Welker had for them, because anointed god, Tom Brady overthrew a pass to him once, they never really forgave Ray Bourque for never winning a Stanley Cup for them and winning one in Colorado instead.............and look what they've done to Bill Buckner and even Tito Francona, who they ran out of town after winning two longed for World Series titles for them.

Please be aware, this is not a slam on Boston fans either, just what I've observed with their media over the years.

Joe D. was fawned over by the New York media, because of the titles, and the 56 game hit streak, and the obliging team-mates who put up with him and his superiority complex. They over-looked a lot of flaws in him, I don't think the Boston media would have been so kindly about, if the situations had been reversed.

I think Ted redeemed himself quite well, once the spotlight of playing on the field was not a factor in his life. Joe D. was quite happy with just being an icon, and not feeling as if he had to give anything back to anyone, including respect. I think Ted lived his life in quite a different and more respectful way then Joe D..

[Runscott]

I would take Ted Williams, but Joe's fielding ability is often underplayed. DiMaggio didn't have all the spectacular catches of some outfielders because he was such a good judge of where the ball would be.

[midwaylandscaping]

Williams. Give him the time missed during war(s) his stats would have put him solidly in the greatest ever conversation IMO. Even without those years, Ted >> DiMaggio

[Forever Young]

Williams. Give him the time missed during war(s) his stats would have put him solidly in the greatest ever conversation IMO. Even without those years, Ted >> DiMaggio

Agreed... and those were is prime years.

[obcbobd]

Ted, by a wide margin.

[sycks22]

Teddy ballgame. Fun fact: during his '41 campaign he obviously hit .406 in 606 plate appearances, nobody talks about how he only struck out only 27 times.

[mr2686]

Same year Dimaggio had 622 plate appearances and only 13 strikeouts

[D. Bergin]

Same year Dimaggio had 622 plate appearances and only 13 strikeouts

They were both incredibly efficient hitters, I don't think that can be denied by anybody.

Ted walked about 2-3 times more often then Joe D. however, and got on base at a clip of about 80+ percentage points higher.

One of the things that makes Ted so amazing. Most low strikeout guys, don't walk a lot either. They are so afraid of striking out, they will swing and hit pitches out of the zone just to make contact. Ted never swung at anything he didn't think was a strike, and he was almost always right, according to the Umps anyways.

Ted has a career walk to strikeout ratio of almost 3 to 1. Joe D. is a little better then 2 to 1, though with a lot more "contact" outs. Joe has almost as many HR's as strikeouts.

Both are pretty amazing.

[mr2686]

I think the only bad thing I can say about Ted is that he wouldn't expand his strike zone to take advantage of the Williams shift (I believe he even mentioned it later in life). If he had, he probably could have hit .600,

[ullmandds]

Ted was one of the best hitters ever...maybe the best...would have given the babe's hr record a run if he hadn't lost so many years to the war effort. JOe was smooth...and played for the yankees...Ted was the better ballplayer...and I too...am a yankees fan!!

[Iron Horse]

For me Ted Williams, but i take Joe D. on my team :D
To me Ted is the greatest hitter of all time. What a swing. Only if he had not missed those years...

[earlywynnfan]

Same year Dimaggio had 622 plate appearances and only 13 strikeouts

And he hit 50 points lower than Ted!

Ken

[earlywynnfan]

Ken- FYI, this is a derogatory term towards Italians.

I only used it because that's what Joe called himself, and that's also what everyone around Joe called him.

Personally, I don't know if I've ever said that word in my life!

Ken

[mr2686]

And he hit 50 points lower than Ted!

Ken

and hit in 56 straight games.

[AndrewJerome]

Williams was a better player. Joe D. certainly has the edge defensively, but that isn't nearly enough to overcome Ted's ability as a hitter.

Andrew

[jbsports33]

Ted Williams!!!

[earlywynnfan]

and hit in 56 straight games.

And still didn't get as many hits as Cecil Travis!

[SteveMitchell]

Excellence and longevity wins for me! If I were a club owner or general manager, I'd take the guy who was outstanding for the longest period. In this debate, it would clearly be Ted Williams. In another posting, Willie Mays (over Mickey Mantle).

[Edward]

Dimaggio lent far more to team chemistry. Baseball is a team sport. Teams have stats. Williams if it was golf.

[Tedw9]

Dimaggio lent far more to team chemistry. Baseball is a team sport. Teams have stats. Williams if it was golf.


David Halberstam wrote a great book called "Teammates" that talks about the friendship between Ted, Dom DiMaggio, Johnny Pesky and Bobby Doerr. If Ted was so bad for team chemistry, I don't think anyone would have wrote a book about his friendships with teammates.


Here's an amazing stat of Ted's that some people don't know. He holds the record for consecutive games reaching base by walk, hit or hit by pitch at 84 games. Every game, 84 straight games, Ted reached base. To me, that's incredible.

I'll take Ted all day long.

[CMIZ5290]

David Halberstam wrote a great book called "Teammates" that talks about the friendship between Ted, Dom DiMaggio, Johnny Pesky and Bobby Doerr. If Ted was so bad for team chemistry, I don't think anyone would have wrote a book about his friendships with teammates.


Here's an amazing stat of Ted's that some people don't know. He holds the record for consecutive games reaching base by walk, hit or hit by pitch at 84 games. Every game, 84 straight games, Ted reached base. To me, that's incredible.

I'll take Ted all day long.

I had no clue about that stat, that is remarkable!

[mr2686]

David Halberstam wrote a great book called "Teammates" that talks about the friendship between Ted, Dom DiMaggio, Johnny Pesky and Bobby Doerr. If Ted was so bad for team chemistry, I don't think anyone would have wrote a book about his friendships with teammates.


Here's an amazing stat of Ted's that some people don't know. He holds the record for consecutive games reaching base by walk, hit or hit by pitch at 84 games. Every game, 84 straight games, Ted reached base. To me, that's incredible.

I'll take Ted all day long.

Yeah, I never heard that Ted was a bad teammate, just didn't like the press or the fans. Actually, from what I've read and heard stories about, seems like Ted was a better teammate than Joe.

[Vintageclout]

Teddy ballgame. Fun fact: during his '41 campaign he obviously hit .406 in 606 plate appearances, nobody talks about how he only struck out only 27 times.

Since you are on the topic of strikeouts, additional facts: in 1941 when Joe D. hit in 56 straight games he only struck out an incredible 13 times! Over his career, Joe D. struck out only 369 times in 6,821 official at bats (AB) for an amazing "1 strikeout per 18 AB" (unheard of for a power hitter!). Ted Williams struck out 709 times in 7,706 lifetime AB for an average of "1 strikeout per 11 AB" (also very impressive). Willie Mays always said he never saw a player swing the bat so consistently hard as Joltin Joe without missing many pitches.

Regarding Joe D. vs. Teddy Ballgame it just may be too close to call. While Ted was certainly the premier hitter, Joe D. was the classic "5 tool" player, and also a great hitter during his peak years. You also have to remember how many balls DiMaggio hit into "Death Valley" between the 407 and 457 sign that were simple fly ball outs. My dad told me a story about a doubleheader he attended at Yankee Stadium where DiMaggio hit 4 home runs and flied out 3 other times on or near the warning track in left-center field. He would have hit 7 home runs in any other ballpark! At peak value I would take DiMaggio because of his additional skillsets, but I honestly feel it's a coin toss.

Great Debate!
Joe T.

[itjclarke]

I had no clue about that stat, that is remarkable!

84= Moneyball's version of 56. Surprising that doesn't get more play the way stats are evolving.

... I just hope the sabermetricians don't become so powerful that we replace all the old goodies like 61, 257, 190 (or 73, 262, 191), with new magic numbers like 14 (Babe Ruth's hallowed all time single season WAR record).

84 straight is an amazing stat though!!

[TUM301]

If I recall correctly, Ted at age 39 hit 38 Hr`s and 388 to win his 5`th batting title. As hard that is to fathom that`s just 5 or 6 hits away from hitting .400 at age 39 !! For an encore, the next season at 40 he hits .328 for his 6`th and final batting title. What can you say.....................WOW

[boysblue]

Teddy Ballgame! If he had been a Yankee he would be right there with the Babe in popularity.

Others have documented his statistics clearly enough. To me he is the best hitter the game has ever seen.