Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era?

[Eric72]

Sorry..trying this again.

[RCMcKenzie]

Purely for the sake of argument, I was going to say Cy Young, and went to baseball reference to find a stat to back up my claim. This was the first stat I looked at, the all-time WAR stat (Wins against replacement), it does not support my argument, but almost did.

www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

[Eric72]

Thanks for the early votes, everybody. I am going to give this a few bumps to push it past the earlier thread...which did not include the poll.

My apologies for those who posted there. I tried to get the poll linked onto this thread. For some reason, it did not take.

Best,

Eric

[ethicsprof]

greatest player if we're talkin' stats and nothing else.

all the best,
barry

[Tobacco&Gum]

Hammerin' Hank missed the list? :)

Even if you take away ALL of his homers, he still has over 3000 hits!

Not sure if he's the best (I voted Ruth), but Hank needs to be considered IMHO.

[Eric72]

greatest player if we're talkin' stats and nothing else.

all the best,
barry

Barry,

Please accept my sincerest thanks for you weighing in here.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Eric72]

Hammerin' Hank missed the list? :)

Even if you take away ALL of his homers, he still has over 3000 hits!

Not sure if he's the best (I voted Ruth), but Hank needs to be considered IMHO.

Vince,

Agreed...Aaron was one helluva a ballplayer.

Best,

Eric

[itjclarke]

Ruth is a no doubter in my mind, no one ever single handedly changed the game like he did... maybe in any sport? Wilt Chamberlain maybe close? The pitching record and WS pitching records are just icing on the cake. Cobb 1a by himself.. then other top 10-20 types like Wagner, Mays (maybe best 5 tooler ever), WaJo, Matty, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Speaker, E Collins, Aaron, Bonds, etc in a 2 category (2nd tier not in any particular order, and not complete in any way)

[Sean]

Ruth is a no doubter in my mind, no one ever single handedly changed the game like he did... maybe in any sport? Wilt Chamberlain maybe close? The pitching record and WS pitching records are just icing on the cake. Cobb 1a by himself.. then other top 10-20 types like Wagner, Mays (maybe best 5 tooler ever), WaJo, Matty, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Speaker, E Collins, Aaron, Bonds, etc in a 2 category (2nd tier not in any particular order, and not complete in any way)

Not only is Ruth #1, but whoever you put second (Cobb, Mays, or Wagner), the #2 player will be closer to the #20 player than to Ruth.

[Shoele$$]

What always struck me about Ruth was when he was pitching, he had a fairly slender athletic body that was better suited for being an all around baseball player with base running and stealing in mind. Then when he became a hitter and switched to the outfield, his body turned into a slow, sloppy, overweight pitcher's body. That extra weight did probably help with power behind his swing, but I just wonder how good he could have been had he possessed the body and speed to be an all around ball player like Cobb and Wagner. Hmmm....

[doug.goodman]

We all know all about Ruth hitting a few homers, having a .342 lifetime average, a couple other things at the plate, all of which make him a candidate, based on hitting.

When you add in his 2.28 lifetime ERA with 97 pitching victories, including his 3-0 record in the World Series (with one of those WS wins being a 14 inning complete game), are we really still thinking about anybody else?

Doug

[drc]

I'd vote but I don't see Sammy Sosa on the list. My God, people, he and McGwire saved baseball!

[Zone91]

I am going to have to go with Willie Mays!! I was going to say Mantle....but I am biased now that I own his ''rookie'' card...lolllll!!!

[drc]

Okay, I'll come clean. I vote for me twice under 'None of the Above.'

[itjclarke]

What always struck me about Ruth was when he was pitching, he had a fairly slender athletic body that was better suited for being an all around baseball player with base running and stealing in mind. Then when he became a hitter and switched to the outfield, his body turned into a slow, sloppy, overweight pitcher's body. That extra weight did probably help with power behind his swing, but I just wonder how good he could have been had he possessed the body and speed to be an all around ball player like Cobb and Wagner. Hmmm....

He would have been a BEAST. He clearly had superhuman hand eye coordination and ridiculous upper body strength. He hit 714 and over .340, while basically walking toward the mound as the pitch approached and swinging a 40+ oz bat. I could maybe do that in a batting cage, but facing different pitchers/pitches, different speeds and still making those moving parts work?!? That said, there's no doubt in my mind he'd have outdone himself had be maintained a more athletic body type. He'd still have that ridiculous hand/eye but would also be fast enough to leg out some more soft infield grounds (imagine how deep infields must have played him).. maybe turn some 450 ft gappers into triples/HR's... probably been a bette outfielder with an already great arm... and maybe extended his career and peak production a little longer (even though there was little drop off until the very end).

[CW]

What? No Sadaharu Oh? :D

As much as I love Cobb's tenacity and approach to the game, I gotta give this one to the Babe.

[deadballfreaK]

I hate voting for a Yankee, but gotta be Ruth.

[triwak]

I was going to say Mantle....but I am biased now that I own his ''rookie'' card...lolllll!!!

Hold on! Dunlop isn't listed in the poll. ;)

[mikemcgrail]

George Herman by a mile

Honus is for me number 2

[39special]

I would say Willie Mays.

[barrysloate]

Frank Baker made the cut, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron didn't. Hmmm....

[bobbyw8469]

Mantle played hurt most of his career and still put up awesome numbers. Can you imagine what he would have done had he actually been healthy?

[Tao_Moko]

It's too hard to argue with Ruth as a player and his impact on the game. I didn't see any mention of Rose who was the most dynamic player I ever saw play. I very unfortunately had to live Portsmouth Ohio for a few years as a kid and though I wasn't a Red's fan(having moved from Illinois) it was hard to overlook his superiority on the field. I really enjoyed watching him play. Nolan Ryan was another beast of a player that when you watched him perform live just seemed to control the game.

[lharri3600]

Let us not forget The Say Hey Kid. Remember, he spent some time in the Army!!
I believe he would have made the 700 club if not for the time in the Army.

[Eric72]

Frank Baker made the cut, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron didn't. Hmmm....

Good morning, Barry.

I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, it seems pretty clear...that George Herman Ruth fellow would be crushing the competition, no matter who it was.

Thanks for weighing in and have a wonderful weekend.

Best Regards,

Eric

[AMBST95]

I am going to have to go with Willie Mays!! I was going to say Mantle....but I am biased now that I own his ''rookie'' card...lolllll!!!


:)

[rcp1936]

Well I read that Branch Rickey who saw all the great ones play up to and including Aaron Mays Mantle Williams Musial said that if he was starting a team
the first player he would pick was Wagner

[Shoele$$]

Well I read that Branch Rickey who saw all the great ones play up to and including Aaron Mays Mantle Williams Musial said that if he was starting a team
the first player he would pick was Wagner

To be fair Wagner is also almost always up there with Cobb and Ruth as top 3 players of all time.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I am extremely surprised, more or less dissappointed with this 'list'.

You have Hornsby (not even close to top 10), same for Jackson, Baker isn't even top 30, Josh Gibson (come on), and no Bonds, or Mays?...interesting...is this like the greatest pre-war player of all-time? If so, then your list is justified.

[Brendan]

Well, there's really not much doubt in my mind that it's Ruth. Over the years, I've found the primary reasons some people disagree with this is:

They don't like his homerun, power hitting style of play. Furthermore, all the photos they see of him is when he's old and out of shape and they discount him because "no way some old fat guy can be the greatest player ever."
They claim he wasn't an all-around player. Well, call me crazy, but I never saw Willie Mays go 94-46 as a pitcher.
Because he is always assumed to be the best player ever by the majority of credible baseball analysts and historians today, people pick someone else to be a contrarian and/or unique. Rather than just mindlessly following the pack, they bring up some other player who had a great career. Issue is, these careers simply don't compare to Ruth's.
They make some excuse for some older player about them not playing in the live ball era.


As far as the best pitcher ever, I personally go with Cy Young. People seem to discount him for some reason, but when you look at his numbers, they're just incredible. I'm sure Walter Johnson was a great pitcher, but in a direct comparison, Cy Young has got to be the pick.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Well, there's really not much doubt in my mind that it's Ruth. Over the years, I've found the primary reasons some people disagree with this is:

They don't like his homerun, power hitting style of play. Furthermore, all the photos they see of him is when he's old and out of shape and they discount him because "no way some old fat guy can be the greatest player ever."
Because he is always assumed to be the best player ever by the majority of credible baseball analysts and historians today, people pick someone else to be a contrarian and/or unique. Rather than just mindlessly following the pack, they bring up some other player who had a great career. Issue is, these careers simply don't compare to Ruth's.
They make some excuse for some older player about them not playing in the live ball era.


As far as the best pitcher ever, I personally go with Cy Young. People seem to discount him for some reason, but when you look at his numbers, they're just incredible. I'm sure Walter Johnson was a great pitcher, but in a direct comparison, Cy Young has got to be the pick.

Ughhh, not worth arguing again...

[CMIZ5290]

Why is Frank Baker even on the ballot?:confused:

[Brendan]

Ughhh, not worth arguing again...

Seems like that's kind of the point of every "Who is the greatest player ever thread?" What purpose does a thread like this serve, other than to open up discussions and arguments about who the greatest player ever is?

[bbcard1]

Babe Ruth did a grave disservice to the game by making this argument not even close...it is only even an interesting argument if you either introduce a caveat that the game was for some reason different in that day...no air travel, no black/international players...or you completely disregard that he had several years at a hall of fame pace as a pitcher before becoming a revolutionary hitter.

Maybe the best thing about him is that he also had a couple of off seasons and failures on and off the field. Fully a superstar and fully human at the same time.

[CMIZ5290]

Babe Ruth did a grave disservice to the game by making this argument not even close...it is only even an interesting argument if you either introduce a caveat that the game was for some reason different in that day...no air travel, no black/international players...or you completely disregard that he had several years at a hall of fame pace as a pitcher before becoming a revolutionary hitter.

Maybe the best thing about him is that he also had a couple of off seasons and failures on and off the field. Fully a superstar and fully human at the same time.

+1....Didn't he hit 3 homeruns in one of his last games as a Boston Brave? He also still to this day holds records as a pitcher.

[Eric72]

I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.



And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on. And have a great weekend.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Seems like that's kind of the point of every "Who is the greatest player ever thread?" What purpose does a thread like this serve, other than to open up discussions and arguments about who the greatest player ever is?

Because if you do a search, there are at least 10 other threads in the past year with this same argument, heck, I even started one. My vote is Bonds, and you can read my opinions on that in the many many other threads.

[auggiedoggy]

Anyone who smoked too much, drank too much, partied too much and rarely, if ever, worked out and could still put up the numbers Ruth did deserves the honour! :D

[insidethewrapper]

I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.

[g_vezina_c55]

My vote : Ruth

[itjclarke]

And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on. And have a great weekend.

Appreciate your effort Eric.. it was a nice little baseball centric break from the other things you refer to.

I'm still Babe all the way regardless of the original baseball writers vote. At the time of his HOF induction, I think there must still have been quite a few crotchety old school sports writers/purists who'd grown up on dead ball era and tactics.. and who preferred the "science" of Cobb's game as opposed to the brawn of Ruth's. Babe only won 1 MVP during his career, which is nuts considering he lead the league in HR's and had 13 wins in the same year, and broke the single season HR record 4 times in his career!! (worth noting Cobb only won 1 MVP too).

In 1936, baseball had still been a dead ball game for the majority of its history, and what Ruth had done was probably still unsettling to some. As years/decades/eras have gone by since, we see even more clearly that Ruth is the greatest vehicle of change the game has ever seen (except maybe J Robinson for totally different reasons).. and it's greatest/most influential player ever.

Cobb is still my untied 1a.

[sycks22]

For those people who say Young is the best fail to realize that not even his peers / baseball voters thought he was that good with receiving 76% in the HOF vote. If you throw out Young's 511 wins (which he pitched the most innings / started the most games and completed the most games) he wasn't better than Matty or Johnson of that era. He averaged 111 k's per season (I realize it's the dead ball era), but he never had more than 210 which Johnson topping 300 twice. Johnson pitched for a far worse team and had a lower era / more shut outs / more k's / over 2,000 less hits allowed. He is the Pete Rose of the dead ball era of someone that was good, but his numbers are more of a factor that he pitched more than anyone, than the fact that he was dominate.

[bn2cardz]

For those people who say Young is the best fail to realize that not even his peers / baseball voters thought he was that good with receiving 76% in the HOF vote.... his numbers are more of a factor that he pitched more than anyone, than the fact that he was dominate.


He also pitched for better teams than Johnson did.

[itjclarke]

Johnson pitched for a far worse team and had a lower era / more shut outs / more k's / over 2,000 less hits allowed. .

I agree, I think WaJo is the unparalelled pitcher of his era, and all who'd come before him. I'm a big Matty fan and collector, but I also don't think he really compares with WaJo's sheer power. All are amazing, Matty/Alexander's numbers are incredible, and Young's durability and WHIP's are nuts.. but WaJo struck out lots of guys in an era when batters rarely struck out. Imagine striking out 300+ when everyone you're facing has strikeout rates like Tony Gwynn or Ichiro

[tiger8mush]

% of ballots on first ever HOF vote in 1936:
Cobb 98.2%
Ruth 95.1%
Wagner 95.1%
Matty 90.7%
WoJo 83.6%

Today, many say Ruth is the clear-cut best ever. 80 years ago, the voters didn't see it that way.

[CMIZ5290]

Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??

[itjclarke]

% of ballots on first ever HOF vote in 1936:
Cobb 98.2%
Ruth 95.1%
Wagner 95.1%
Matty 90.7%
WoJo 83.6%

Today, many say Ruth is the clear-cut best ever. 80 years ago, the voters didn't see it that way.

Per my earlier post, I think the bias of some writers may have affected this HOF vote.. Ruth and his style of hitting were the biggest jolt the game had ever seen (and has ever seen since). After Ruth, offense became more of a station to station, wait for the 3 run HR style of play, which was an affront to those who'd loved the strategic bunt, steal, squeeze style of small ball that preceded him. Ruth broke the HR record 4 times! and won only 1 MVP. I've gotta think there was some old school writer's bias there.

[RCMcKenzie]

Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??

FWIW, the all-time WAR list ranks Baker here....

153 Andruw Jones
154 Frank Baker
155 David Cone
156 Joe Jackson

[packs]

I don't see how anyone could not answer Babe Ruth. It doesn't matter how the sports writers voted. There has only been one player in the history of the game to single handedly outhit an entire league. That player is Babe Ruth.

As talented and great as Cobb was, he didn't change the game. He only did things better than the players around him.

But Ruth did change the game, and every player after him has been trying to live up to what he did.

[Eric72]

Again, I must ask, why in the world is Homerun Baker listed in the poll? For that matter, if there were 50 players listed, why would he be one of them??

Hi Kevin,

I understand why he may seem out of place. As for answering your question, please see the posts below.

Best Regards,

Eric



I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.



And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on. And have a great weekend.

[howard38]

/

[itjclarke]

For much of Ruth's prime there either was no MVP awarded or a player was no longer eligible after having won it once. During his career there was no award until 1922 and after he won in 1923 he was no longer eligible until the rules were changed in the early thirties.

Point taken, I didn't know that. I still maintain my stance that there was possibly an "old school small ball/purist" element present in that first writers vote.

Adding: especially given every writer over age 35 probably spent their formative years following, even idolizing players of the dead ball era. I know I met the mid-90's with a lot of hesitancy because the game seemed to change over night

[howard38]

/

[CMIZ5290]

Ruth and Cobb, whatever order as 1st or 2nd.....

[HOF Auto Rookies]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

[CMIZ5290]

Where is Mantle?

[packs]

I would think Player C is the best of the group.

[Kenny Cole]

Ruth, His impact, both on and off the field, was immeasurable.

[CMIZ5290]

I am amazed 2 people voted for Frank Baker, are you guys related, or trying to drive prices up on his cards? Holy cow.....

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I am amazed 2 people voted for Frank Baker, are you guys related, or trying to drive prices up on his cards? Holy cow.....

Lol, my thoughts exactly

[Sean]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

Player C is by far the best.

[71buc]

I think you actually are asking who is the greatest pre 1947 player. How can you engage in such a discussion without considering Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, or Ken Griffey Jr?

[Eric72]

Thanks to everyone who weighed in here. I am going to edit the title slightly, so as to avoid any further confusion.

Please know that I truly appreciate and value everyone's opinions. It was actually very nice to watch the thread for a full 24 hours and read everything posted within. Everyone was polite and civil, for which I am grateful.

I have added a couple of my earlier posts below to help explain why Mays, Mantle, et al were not included.

Have a great weekend, everyone.



I took my Pre-War starting nine, added, "none of the above" as the tenth choice, and posted the thread...nothing more, nothing less.

Eric



And I did this because the noise from a few of the other threads was benumbing. Sorry, guys...guess I zoned out.

Anyways, carry on.



Best Regards,

Eric

[bn2cardz]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

[Eric72]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

From a purely staistical perspective, rergarding offense, I would take Player C.

Without fielding stats, though, Player D might not be represented fairly.

Both of them changed the game. One made previously unthinkable hitting a reality. The other made previously unthinkable fielding a reality...and, when adding 660 HR to the stats provided for Player D, he's certainly no slouch.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

I would say no, because pithin is one of the many facets of the overall game

[Eric72]

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

Agreed...WaJo had more than 100 complete game shutouts, along with many other astounding career numbers. In my humble opinion, he deserves mention in this discussion.

[bn2cardz]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

You put player C's walks where you put the other players' stolen bases.

Player A does have a better average of getting the ball in play with a SO every 10 PA and every 9AB. Whereas player C had the worse SO ratio to PA and ABs. So it really depends on what you consider makes someone a better player at the plate. Since RBIs and Runs has a lot to do with who batted in front and behind the player and Average can do a lot with how good the corresponding defense was then the one thing that is dependent on the batter is getting the ball in play I would say player A had the advantage. Also player A has the longer career stamina having played nearly 306 more games then the next longest career. So even though the straight forward stat of career OPS and AVG wouldn't show it, digging deeper into the career stats I would say player A as the advantage.

[Jlighter]

Per my earlier post, I think the bias of some writers may have affected this HOF vote.. Ruth and his style of hitting were the biggest jolt the game had ever seen (and has ever seen since). After Ruth, offense became more of a station to station, wait for the 3 run HR style of play, which was an affront to those who'd loved the strategic bunt, steal, squeeze style of small ball that preceded him. Ruth broke the HR record 4 times! and won only 1 MVP. I've gotta think there was some old school writer's bias there.

This is probably true. Back then the writers also didn't put too much weight into vote percentages and first ballots.

[itjclarke]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

I appreicate the want for anonymity but I could identify those stat lines from a mile away:D. Thanks for sticking the unpopular guy in there. He's gotten some mention so far, but not much. It'll be really interesting to see if he ever gets anywhere near the sort of credit that stat line would normally garner... My thought is "no".

[Tanman7baseball]

As to think who you guys think is the better player. Please don't take the time to look up the stats to find who is who, just look at make your decision.

Player A: Games: 3298, PA: 13941, AB: 12364, Avg: .305, OBP: 374, SLG: .555, OPS: .928, Runs: 2174, Hits: 3771, 2B: 624, 3B: 98, RBI’s: 2297, SB: 240, SO: 1383

Player B: Games: 2986, PA: 12606, AB: 9847, Avg: 298, OBP: .444, SLG: .607, OPS: 1.051, Runs: 2227, Hits: 2935, 2B: 601, 3B: 77, RBI’s: 1996, SB: 514, SO: 1539

Player C: Games: 2509, PA: 10622, AB: 8399, Avg: .342, OBP: .474, SLG: .690, OPS: 1.164, Runs: 2174, Hits: 2873, 2B: 506, 3B: 136, RBI’s: 2220, BB: 2062, SO: 1330

Player D: Games: 2992, PA: 12496, AB: 10881, Avg: .302, OBP: .384, SLG: .557, OPS: .941, Runs: 2062, Hits: 3283, 2B: 523, 3B: 140, RBI’s: 1903, SB: 338, SO: 1526

The stats are a main factor obviously but what about how the player affected his fellow teammates? I think when people soley look at stats they seem to neglect the intangibles. Im talking about players who were not only good but also made the players around them better. True leaders. A real "spark-plug" if you will. One guy who exemplifies such traits and is surprisingly not on the list is Tris Speaker. I mean what's up with that??? :confused: yes I know he was involved in gambling... Still think he was a great leader as from what I remember from reading.

[RedlegsFan]

Overall, factoring everything, I have to say PETE ROSE would be the royal flush of all picks. I need not mention his stats, they are obviously epic. Best in recorded baseball history. He played nearly every position, and was captain of the only team to ever be compared with the 1927 Yankees, the 75 Reds.
But, as an overall American icon, I must mention Teddy Williams.

Wes

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

[Jlighter]

Overall, factoring everything, I have to say PETE ROSE would be the royal flush of all picks. I need not mention his stats, they are obviously epic. Best in recorded baseball history. He played nearly every position, and was captain of the only team to ever be compared with the 1927 Yankees, the 75 Reds.
But, as an overall American icon, I must mention Teddy Williams.

Wes

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

NO

[Sean]

Overall, factoring everything, I have to say PETE ROSE would be the royal flush of all picks. I need not mention his stats, they are obviously epic. Best in recorded baseball history. He played nearly every position, and was captain of the only team to ever be compared with the 1927 Yankees, the 75 Reds.
But, as an overall American icon, I must mention Teddy Williams.

Wes

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

Seriously, the Reds are the only team compared to the Yankees. I've watched baseball since the mid-sixties. The only team comparable to the "27 Yanks is the 1998 Yankees.
The Reds did have a great team, but Rose was the third best player on that team (after Joe Morgan and Johhny Bench).
And if you think Rose's stats are the best in history, I think you should expand your view of history.

[RedlegsFan]

It's not rocket science. I know Pete is not a favorite because of what he is. Ruth and Cobb died before most people here in this forum were even born. I get it. There's nothing complicated about 4256. The thread says best "baseball player." Not most honorable, dynamic, pitcher, runner, coach, donator, war hero, etc. . . . To play "base" ball, the player has to hit the ball, be hit by the ball, or walked, to get on "base." This is what Rose did, very simple, "hit the basball and run to the base before getting "out"," And he did this more than any other player in history. I guess I just thought 4189 of Cobb's wasn't that close to 4256. Aaron did it 3771. I can't boast watching baseball since forever, but I can say the recorded stats are facts, even if the record holders are of questionable integrity. I "bet" you can't find somebody that has "hit" a baseball more than Rose.:D

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

[obcbobd]

I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.

I think many of these writers were from the "small ball" era and worshiped Ty, who exemplified everything good about that style of play. Then along comes Babe, and suddenlty everything changes. I am not surprised that 7 or these writers would vote for Ty and not Ruth, almost as a way to say if was better back in my day.

Of more interest would be the 215 who voted for Babe, Honus and Ty. How would they rank them 1-2-3?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I appreicate the want for anonymity but I could identify those stat lines from a mile away:D. Thanks for sticking the unpopular guy in there. He's gotten some mention so far, but not much. It'll be really interesting to see if he ever gets anywhere near the sort of credit that stat line would normally garner... My thought is "no".

Hey Ian, I hear ya. I look at these quick glance and know who they are, but I agree with you about that player not getting any love.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

The thread says best "baseball player." Not most honorable, dynamic, pitcher, runner, coach, donator, war hero, etc. . . . To play "base" ball, the player has to hit the ball, be hit by the ball, or walked, to get on "base."

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have a damn clue what baseball is, or what you're talking about. Baseball isn't just about your ridiculous post above. Don't forget fielding/defense buddy, because you clearly don't see that value. Hitting 'aint everything. Being the best baseball player, you need to do it all. And Rose was no defensive whiz.

[SteveMitchell]

I'll go with the BBWAA who voted for the first class of HOF'ers in 1936. This was right after Ruth's career and since everyone hated Cobb (according to current belief, though he helped a lot of players with fiancial problems). The top 3 vote getters from the 226 writers were : 1) Cobb 222, 2) Ruth 215 and 3) Wagner 215. These voters were from the same era. Hard to believe with Cobb's reputation, he still received the most votes. He must have been "one hell of a player ". He gets my vote.

Can't argue with this logic except to say the BBWAA gets the easy picks and leaves the tougher ones for other committees. Consequently, I don't put great stock in that esteemed body. Still, Cobb was detested by many and still earned first place on the initial ballot. (I wonder if he would even get 75% from today's BBWAA?)

My vote went to Babe Ruth.

[Leon]

A lot of knowledgeable baseball guys and girls on this board. Look at the voting. Believe it. My vote, Ruth, Ruth Ruth........ then everyone else, for all of the reasons mentioned.

[EvilKing00]

was an easy choice :)

[ethicsprof]

I must say that your moderation of this thread has been masterful.
Your advocacy for civility and scholarly dialogue is most refreshing.
all the best,
barry

[Eric72]

I must say that your moderation of this thread has been masterful.
Your advocacy for civility and scholarly dialogue is most refreshing.
all the best,
barry

Barry,

Please accept my sincere thanks for the kind words. Your feedback is truly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Eric

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I must say that your moderation of this thread has been masterful.
Your advocacy for civility and scholarly dialogue is most refreshing.
all the best,
barry

Well said, good work Eric. Threads like these could easily get out of hand, especially with polls. Way to keep level headed.

[Jlighter]

It's not rocket science. I know Pete is not a favorite because of what he is. Ruth and Cobb died before most people here in this forum were even born. I get it. There's nothing complicated about 4256. The thread says best "baseball player." Not most honorable, dynamic, pitcher, runner, coach, donator, war hero, etc. . . . To play "base" ball, the player has to hit the ball, be hit by the ball, or walked, to get on "base." This is what Rose did, very simple, "hit the basball and run to the base before getting "out"," And he did this more than any other player in history. I guess I just thought 4189 of Cobb's wasn't that close to 4256. Aaron did it 3771. I can't boast watching baseball since forever, but I can say the recorded stats are facts, even if the record holders are of questionable integrity. I "bet" you can't find somebody that has "hit" a baseball more than Rose.:D

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

Actually the name of the thread was changed to best Prewar player.

You're utterly spurious in your ASSumption of HITs being the most important aspect of baseball. It is runs. Considering how many precious hits Rose had he still had less scored runs then Ruth or Aaron. Rose also barely makes it into the top 100 for RBIs, Yount and Pudge have more.

If Aaron wanted to he could have had 4300 hits while batting over .330. He choose instead to hit for power instead of slapping singles.

Ichiro and Pujols are better then Rose.

[Eric72]

If Aaron wanted to he could have had 4300 hits while batting over .330. He choose instead to hit for power instead of slapping singles.



Jake,

Hank was an overwhelmed kid who broke into the majors hitting cross-handed and actually turned down an offer from the Giants. Had he played for roughly twenty years in the same lineup as Willie Mays, perhaps this conversation would be completely different. He might have had the luxury of hitting .330 and amassing power numbers beyond comprehension...with Mays on the basepaths.

Just my humble opinion here...that would have been one amazing outfield. Aaron, Mays, McCovey.

Best Regards,

Eric

[itjclarke]

...that would have been one amazing outfield. Aaron, Mays, McCovey.

I love how loaded that Giant team was. McCovey "Stretch" only played outfield because another HOFer, Orlando Cepeda had beaten him to the bigs by a year. Plus you had Marichal/Perry/McCormick (Cy winner)/Jack Sanford pitching. Those guys could just never get over the hump.

Re- Hank vs Willie. I'll never take anything away from Aaron, but he played several years in "the launching pad".. While Mays had to play over a decade in windy Candlestick, before they closed the stadium with an outfield upper deck. That era pre-dates me, but supposedly that '60's Stick was one of the toughest places to hit bombs. Mays, had he not lost virtually two years to military service, and had he played in a hitter friendly park, undoubtedly would have hit more than 700.. And likely passed Ruth first.

[CMIZ5290]

Great thread Eric, I do think Mathewson has to be considered especially if pitchers are allowed into the discussion. His stats are pretty remarkable as are Walter Johnson's.....What amazes me is what Cobb's stats were against Johnson, later on in his career he had amazing success against him....

[Eric72]

Well said, good work Eric. Threads like these could easily get out of hand, especially with polls. Way to keep level headed.

Brent,

Many thanks. Your comments are well received and greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Eric72]

Great thread Eric, I do think Mathewson has to be considered especially if pitchers are allowed into the discussion. His stats are pretty remarkable as are Walter Johnson's.....What amazes me is what Cobb's stats were against Johnson, later on in his career he had amazing success against him....

Kevin,

Thank you very much. I appreciate you weighing in with the kind words.

As for Mathewson, I agree. Any discussion about pitchers that does not include him is sorely missing something. I am sure that there are many who would argue he is the greatest ever...and they would be making a valid point.

Regarding Cobb, I remember a portion of Baseball: A Film by Ken Burns that touched on Cobb's approach to hitting against Johnson. Apparently, Cobb would crowd the plate and Johnson would throw outside on the first couple of pitches, for fear of hitting the batter.

Johnson would then ease up a bit and throw the ball over the plate, trying to get a strike. Cobb figured that this was the pitch to hit, knew it was coming, and simply reached out with his bat and let it meet the ball

Ty was a brilliant man, no doubt…and one of the greatest players of all time, in my humble opinion.

Best Regards,

Eric

[ElCabron]

The obvious answer is Ruth, and that's how I voted. But it's not as simple as you might think. It all depends on how you define "greatest baseball player." I think Ruth tends to get the nod by a large margin because in addition to being the best hitter (or at the very least in the top 2 ever to pick up a bat) he was also a dominant pitcher. But if we're deciding based on the greatest 2-way players, many all-time greats like Wagner and Cobb would have to take a back seat to guys like Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan. In fact, those 3 would probably be the finalists, with Ruth still being on top by a fairly large margin.

But the other way of evaluating it is who is the best all-around 5-tool player. This method still seems inadequate to me, but it changes who belongs in the argument. The discussion should probably include Willie Mays, Honus Wagner, Mickey Mantle, Oscar Charleston, maybe DiMaggio if you want. Even Bonds. Possibly Aaron. I wouldn't have a huge problem with you trying to slip Clemente into the argument in spite of his clear lack of power compared to others. But probably not Ruth. Probably not Josh Gibson. Not Cobb. In my opinion, Oscar Charleston tops this list. The problem is, you can argue that Ruth wasn't a swift runner or great defensive outfielder all you want, but no one in their right mind (that didn't grow up in New York as a kid in the 1950s) would take Mickey Mantle over Babe Ruth.

So the only way to really decide is by some other partly subjective manner. For me, I think there are several tiers of players that can all legitimately be included in the discussion of who is the greatest player ever. But I think there are only 4 players in the top tier that should be in the final discussion. Those players are Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Oscar Charleston, and Josh Gibson. It wouldn't offend me to include Willie Mays, but I personally don't put him in the final group. And Cobb simply doesn't belong. Get over it.

Of those 4, Babe Ruth is still my pick. But the margin isn't as big for me as it is for most other people. Charleston has a strong argument for greatest "all-around" player ever to step onto a baseball diamond. People forget that Wagner stole over 700 bases and played an important defensive position. Gibson was a better runner and defensive catcher than he gets credit for. Still, two words: Babe Ruth.

So that's my long-winded way of agreeing with almost everyone else. I mean, Ruth and the rest of these guys are all behind Frank Baker, of course. Clearly it goes Baker, then everyone else, starting with Ruth.

-Ryan

[RCMcKenzie]

When it comes to winning the World Series the best player for a manager is probably a pitcher. Would you rather have Tom Seaver on the mound or Babe Ruth in the lineup? You can always just walk Ruth. That's why I voted "other" for Cy Young. In one game I would take Kevin Brown over Babe Ruth.

[bfrench00]

NO GEHRIG!? I voted for ruth but still id say the iron horse deserves to at least on the list.

[Eric72]

NO GEHRIG!? I voted for ruth but still id say the iron horse deserves to at least on the list.

Billy,

Gehrig was in the poll choices, if I am not mistaken.

Best Regards,

Eric

[Eric72]

I think there are only 4 players in the top tier that should be in the final discussion. Those players are Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Oscar Charleston, and Josh Gibson.

-Ryan

Ryan,

You make a valid point regarding Oscar Charlestson. Please see below, from an earlier thread. The post I refer to is #93.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1107860#post1107860

Best Regards,

Eric

[Jlighter]

NO GEHRIG!? I voted for ruth but still id say the iron horse deserves to at least on the list.

Lou Gehrig 8 3.42%

[bn2cardz]

So it isn't allowed to be a career pitcher?

I would say no, because pithin is one of the many facets of the overall game

If it is the overall game that you are worried about then why did you only post offensive numbers ONLY? You should have put their fielding stats there for comparison as well.


I still don't understand people who say it is an obvious choice. How can one of the strike out leaders of the pre war era be considered the best player of the pre war era? Even Cobb never struck out more than 55 times in a season, Ruth struck out less than 55 only 5 seasons and 3 of those where when he was a pitcher with Boston. I don't have a gripe if people vote for Ruth, just when they say it is an obvious choice.

[sayheykid54]

The greatest player of the Dead Ball era is without question Ty Cobb.

Babe Ruth technically wouldn't qualify as a possibility as he played MOST of his career post Dead Ball era with a different baseball. Babe Ruth should be taken off this list. His numbers with Boston as a hitter during the Dead Ball era weren't even close to Cobb's during the years the Dead Ball was being used.

In the Dead ball era the best Home run hitters would have only 12-14 homers per year. From 1900 to 1920 there were 13 home run champs that had fewer than 10 home runs in a season.

During the years that Ty Cobb played during the Dead Ball era he led the lead in hitting 12 out of 15 years. Unbelievable!!!!!!

[PolarBear]

We all know all about Ruth hitting a few homers, having a .342 lifetime average, a couple other things at the plate, all of which make him a candidate, based on hitting.

When you add in his 2.28 lifetime ERA with 97 pitching victories, including his 3-0 record in the World Series (with one of those WS wins being a 14 inning complete game), are we really still thinking about anybody else?

Doug


This. Ruth could have been an HOF pitcher if he hadn't become the hitter we all remember. No other player even comes close to matching that ability.

[howard38]

/

[pepis]

In major league history,, only 5 left-handed pitchers have ever compiled an ERA of under 2.00 runs while pitching over 300 innings in one year 2-in pre war
Rube Waddell & The Babe,,,in pos war Koufax, Carlton and V.Blue, so his pitching prowls were up there with the greatest ever!! no need to say anything
about his hitting,, most complete baseball player!! with not even a close 2nd.

[jcmtiger]

Come on, it's still Ty Cobb and won't change no matter how many polls are taken.

Joe

[howard38]

In major league history,, only 5 left-handed pitchers have ever compiled an ERA of under 2.00 runs while pitching over 300 innings in one year 2-in pre war
Rube Waddell & The Babe,,,in pos war Koufax, Carlton and V.Blue, so his pitching prowls were up there with the greatest ever!! no need to say anything
about his hitting,, most complete baseball player!! with not even a close 2nd.
It's been done more often than that. Carl Hubbell, Wilbur Wood (the same year as Vida Blue) and Hal Newhouser all did it. Probably some others as well.

[ZenPop]

In the Pre-War era... I'd go Josh Gibson or Babe Ruth...

But Willie Mays was the best ever.

Ruth was awesome. But he played in a segregated league.
Mays was a baseball genius... playing in the most perfect era of baseball, ever.

[the 'stache]

Ed Walsh could have received some consideration. The man threw nearly 3,000 innings and had a career 1.82 ERA.

I'm still trying to figure out how in 1910 Walsh threw 369 2/3 innings, struck out 258 batters, had a 0.820 WHIP and a 1.27 ERA, and went only 18-20!

But for the best player, after some careful consideration, I had to vote for Ruth. The guy could have gone down as one of the all-time greatest pitchers, and he was an even better hitter.

[2dueces]

Cobb was the greatest all around player of all time. Not just pre war. Babe Ruth was the most dominate player of all time. There is a difference.

[Fred]

Ruth

[Jason]

Ty Cobbs character prevents a lot of people from seeing just how great he was.He may not have been the best person but no doubt he is the best ball player I'm my mind.

[PolarBear]

Ed Walsh could have received some consideration. The man threw nearly 3,000 innings and had a career 1.82 ERA.

I'm still trying to figure out how in 1910 Walsh threw 369 2/3 innings, struck out 258 batters, had a 0.820 WHIP and a 1.27 ERA, and went only 18-20!


The pre-1917 Sox were known as the Hitless Wonders. He didn't have much run support to win games.

[sayheykid54]

Without question Ty Cobb..not even close.

He's the fiercest most complete player to ever play the game. He DOMINATED the era that he played in. His all-time highest batting average will never be matched.

COBB!

[Kenny Cole]

I suppose that if the question is limited to the majors, I'd go with Ruth very narrowly over Cobb. If the question is the best baseball player of that era, I think it is Oscar Charleston. He was a combination of Ruth, Cobb, Speaker and Mays as a player. IMO, he wins best ever, and he was certainly better than Gibson.

[aljurgela]

I have to agree with Kenny ... That Oscar would take it... If majors, would have to be Ruth.

[Leon]

Without question Ty Cobb..not even close.

He's the fiercest most complete player to ever play the game. He DOMINATED the era that he played in. His all-time highest batting average will never be matched.

COBB!

According to your peers on this vintage board you are a multiple of 4x wrong :). At approximately 16% for Cobb and 65% for Ruth, I would say without question it was Ruth.....again, according to our members.

[Vintageclout]

According to your peers on this vintage board you are a multiple of 4x wrong :). At approximately 16% for Cobb and 65% for Ruth, I would say without question it was Ruth.....again, according to our members.

Leon,

Aside from being a HOF PITCHER, I firmly believe Ruth's stand-alone greatness is confirmed by the FACT that he actually out-homered virtually all of the TEAMS in the league during the early 1920's!!! I will always look at that statistic as one of if not THE most unfathomable feats in Major League history. Babe Ruth will forever stand "above the game" itself!

Joe T.

[Leon]

Leon,

Aside from being a HOF PITCHER, I firmly believe Ruth's stand-alone greatness is confirmed by the FACT that he actually out-homered virtually all of the TEAMS in the league during the early 1920's!!! I will always look at that statistic as one of if not THE most unfathomable feats in Major League history. Babe Ruth will forever stand "above the game" itself!

Joe T.

Joe- I always remember that same statistic. And I also remember that he was one of the very best pitchers while he was pitching early in his career.

[BeanTown]

Interesting results from this poll.

[Huysmans]

Absolutely no surprise looking at the results....

Cobb and Ruth are king, best of the best, with no other comparable players in my opinion.

...it isn't even a contest.

[Yoda]

:)

Agree about Mays, but wasn't the original poll asking who was the greatest player of the pre-war era?

[John1941]

Actually, I just voted for Josh Gibson, the only guy who can compare with the Babe in my opinion. I remain unconvinced that the Negro Leagues were equal to the major leagues, but even if you discount his 215 OPS+ a little, if you factor in that he was a catcher, that's more impressive than Ruth. Leaving aside pitching at least.

[nat]

"Ruth broke the HR record 4 times! and won only 1 MVP."

For a while there was a rule that a player could win the MVP award only once. I don't know if that was holding Ruth back, but it might have been.

[oldjudge]

Not only did Ruth change the game, but he saved baseball after the Black Sox scandal. I think Cobb was two and Wagner three. Unfortunately, we will never know how Gibson would have done in the majors but because he never played there I cannot consider him.

[Exhibitman]

I notice only one pitcher on the original list. In terms of pitchers I would list the top 5 as:

Johnson
Grove
Young
Mathewson
Alexander

[oldjudge]

Kid Nichols had a short career but certainly deserves to be on any list of pitching greats. He started at the same time as Cy Yound (1890) and had more wins than Young in that decade. I believe he ranks number one in WAR/year played.

[flpm08]

Babe Ruth was the greatest player ever by far. When you combine his batting statistics with his pitching record no one comes close. The one statistic that amazes me was that in 1921 he hit more home run than any team combined. In today's game to accomplish the same feat a player would have to hit more than 200 home runs in a season. After Ruth, I would rank Cobb and then Mays. Rounding out the top ten would be Johnson, Aaron, Wagner, Williams, Gehrig, Musial and Mantle. For the next nine DiMaggio, Mathewson, Hornsby, Foxx, Speaker, Alexander, Grove, Frank Robinson and Young. For number 20 it could be Schmidt, Collins, Lajoie, Clemente, Bench or even Bonds.
You may ask why is Wagner ranked so high, because there really is no other shortstop near him at the game's most difficult position with the possible of catcher.

[RCMcKenzie]

Agree on Nichols. He is very high on the all-time WAR stat. I don't know all the metrics that go in to it, but it seems to churn out the right names. Eddie Collins and Alex Rodriguez are also high on the list, the other names are the ones most would guess.

[rats60]

When Babe Ruth faced the best Negro League pitcher Satchel Paige, he hit a 500 foot home run off him. Ruth would have dominated any competition. Josh Gibson on the other hand struck out on 3 pitches after Paige intentionally walked 2 guys to face Gibson. Ruth is easily the greatest hitter ever.

Bill James ranks Honus Wagner #2. Although Wagner wasn't the hitter that Ruth was, he was the best hitter in the NL from 1900-1912 and was a gold glove level fielder at the most difficult position, shortstop. James has Willie Mays at #3.

[mrreality68]

Joe- I always remember that same statistic. And I also remember that he was one of the very best pitchers while he was pitching early in his career.

+1 Agree that is an amazing Stat that Ruth himself hit more home runs that most entire teams in the league for several years early in the 1920's. No one has ever been that dominate compared to the rest of the League

PLus added his pitching acumen and no one is even close

[tedzan]

" Who is the greatest player of the Pre-War Era? "

Why is this poll limited to just the "Pre-War Era" ?

BABE RUTH is the greatest in Baseball in any era....19th Century, Pre-WWII, Post-WWII.

I believe in Divine Intervention.....George Herman Ruth was considered an "incorrigible" youngster; and, Brother Matthias at St. Mary’s
Industrial School straightened him out. And, introduced the young Ruth to Baseball and showed him how to play the game.

Then, when the game of Baseball was in serious trouble after the 1919 World Series, the Good Lord, in a dream, inspired Miller Huggins
to persuade Col. Jacob Ruppert (Yankees owner) to acquire Babe Ruth from Boston in December 1919.....and, the rest is history.



https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1933GoudeyBabeRuth149.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/baberuth49_1.jpg


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/large/1949LeafPremiumBabeRuth50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1949LeafBabeRUTHcaption18.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[John1941]

When Babe Ruth faced the best Negro League pitcher Satchel Paige, he hit a 500 foot home run off him. Ruth would have dominated any competition. Josh Gibson on the other hand struck out on 3 pitches after Paige intentionally walked 2 guys to face Gibson. Ruth is easily the greatest hitter ever.


So you're condensing the careers of two guys who combined played for over 40 years into one at-bat each. That doesn't prove anything at all.

As I said, I haven't seen any unbiased studies proving that the Negro Leagues were equal to the major leagues. But it's clear that they were at least high minor league quality. Roy Campanella, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Luke Easter, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, Satchell Paige, and others all played in the Negro Leagues at the same time as Gibson.

Gibson led his league in home runs 11 times, and for his career had an OPS+ of 215. Bill James in his 1985 abstract estimates that a player moving from AAA to the majors would retain about 82% of their offensive production. I think the true number for the Negro Leagues would be between 82% and 100%. 90% seems reasonable to me. That would result in a career OPS+ of 194, four points higher than Ruth.

Part of this is just me being contrarian. I'm not certain of how good the Negro Leagues were, just having fun arguing.

[53toppscollector]

I think it is fruitless and unfair to try to compare baseball players from different eras, especially wildly different eras. Comparing guys from the 1800s, when they pitched from 45 or 50 feet away and players didnt wear gloves, to guys playing today, just seems unreasonable. Its like asking which mode of transportation is better, the wagon or a Porsche. When it was either take a horse/wagon or walk, the wagon seems like the best idea ever. But now, if I offered you either a wagon or a Porsche, you'd probably take the Porsche, if time was any kind of consideration.

The game of baseball was completely different in 1905 than what it is today. Mostly because humans are different and they have evolved, alongside technology. Babe Ruth is amazing, but did he ever actually face any lefthanded pitcher who threw what is accepted today as a slider? He wasn't facing lefties throwing 96-98 consistently with 88-91 mph sliders.

Equipment was different, the game was played differently, and players were not built like they are today. Matty was 6'1/195, WaJo was 6'1/200, they were two of the most dominant pitchers of their era, and by today's standards, they'd be undersized righties.

I understand that there are statistics like ERA+ and OPS+ that adjust for era, but I don't think they can truly adjust and allow for direct 1 to 1 comparisons. The mound was different, park dimensions were a lot different, and the players themselves were a lot different. I mean, there were no night games until 1935. I think its easy to compare WaJo and Matty and Plank and Cy Young to each other, or Wagner to Eddie Collins. I think its a lot harder, and pretty pointless, to compare Mike Trout to Ty Cobb.

Different games, different eras. Just my $0.02

[Eric72]

I think it is fruitless and unfair to try to compare baseball players from different eras, especially wildly different eras. Comparing guys from the 1800s, when they pitched from 45 or 50 feet away and players didnt wear gloves, to guys playing today, just seems unreasonable. Its like asking which mode of transportation is better, the wagon or a Porsche. When it was either take a horse/wagon or walk, the wagon seems like the best idea ever. But now, if I offered you either a wagon or a Porsche, you'd probably take the Porsche, if time was any kind of consideration.

The game of baseball was completely different in 1905 than what it is today. Mostly because humans are different and they have evolved, alongside technology. Babe Ruth is amazing, but did he ever actually face any lefthanded pitcher who threw what is accepted today as a slider? He wasn't facing lefties throwing 96-98 consistently with 88-91 mph sliders.

Equipment was different, the game was played differently, and players were not built like they are today. Matty was 6'1/195, WaJo was 6'1/200, they were two of the most dominant pitchers of their era, and by today's standards, they'd be undersized righties.

I understand that there are statistics like ERA+ and OPS+ that adjust for era, but I don't think they can truly adjust and allow for direct 1 to 1 comparisons. The mound was different, park dimensions were a lot different, and the players themselves were a lot different. I mean, there were no night games until 1935. I think its easy to compare WaJo and Matty and Plank and Cy Young to each other, or Wagner to Eddie Collins. I think its a lot harder, and pretty pointless, to compare Mike Trout to Ty Cobb.

Different games, different eras. Just my $0.02

Generally speaking, I completely agree with this. Hence, the reason it was limited to Pre-War.

[mrreality68]

I think it is fruitless and unfair to try to compare baseball players from different eras, especially wildly different eras. Comparing guys from the 1800s, when they pitched from 45 or 50 feet away and players didnt wear gloves, to guys playing today, just seems unreasonable. Its like asking which mode of transportation is better, the wagon or a Porsche. When it was either take a horse/wagon or walk, the wagon seems like the best idea ever. But now, if I offered you either a wagon or a Porsche, you'd probably take the Porsche, if time was any kind of consideration.

The game of baseball was completely different in 1905 than what it is today. Mostly because humans are different and they have evolved, alongside technology. Babe Ruth is amazing, but did he ever actually face any lefthanded pitcher who threw what is accepted today as a slider? He wasn't facing lefties throwing 96-98 consistently with 88-91 mph sliders.

Equipment was different, the game was played differently, and players were not built like they are today. Matty was 6'1/195, WaJo was 6'1/200, they were two of the most dominant pitchers of their era, and by today's standards, they'd be undersized righties.

I understand that there are statistics like ERA+ and OPS+ that adjust for era, but I don't think they can truly adjust and allow for direct 1 to 1 comparisons. The mound was different, park dimensions were a lot different, and the players themselves were a lot different. I mean, there were no night games until 1935. I think its easy to compare WaJo and Matty and Plank and Cy Young to each other, or Wagner to Eddie Collins. I think its a lot harder, and pretty pointless, to compare Mike Trout to Ty Cobb.

Different games, different eras. Just my $0.02

+1 Agree

But it is baseball and we always compare players and teams across different era in baseball
It is part of the Allure of baseball and the history of baseball that makes it fun but also endless debates.
WE all use different criteria, we use different stats, we use the same stats but use it differently.

[Touch'EmAll]

Cobb was actually a big dude. Had he come along later, developed different hitting style more tailored to the long ball, wonder how it would have worked out.

[BabyRuth]

I vote for the Babe, I may be a little biased.
Just love the pitching pose!!!

[rats60]

So you're condensing the careers of two guys who combined played for over 40 years into one at-bat each. That doesn't prove anything at all.

As I said, I haven't seen any unbiased studies proving that the Negro Leagues were equal to the major leagues. But it's clear that they were at least high minor league quality. Roy Campanella, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Luke Easter, Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, Satchell Paige, and others all played in the Negro Leagues at the same time as Gibson.

Gibson led his league in home runs 11 times, and for his career had an OPS+ of 215. Bill James in his 1985 abstract estimates that a player moving from AAA to the majors would retain about 82% of their offensive production. I think the true number for the Negro Leagues would be between 82% and 100%. 90% seems reasonable to me. That would result in a career OPS+ of 194, four points higher than Ruth.

Part of this is just me being contrarian. I'm not certain of how good the Negro Leagues were, just having fun arguing.

What were Josh Gibson's career stats vs. Satchel Paige? Paige was a major league talent. The best I could find he hit .000 against him. People like to throw out that prewar MLB stars weren't that great because they didn't play against Negro League stars. If those stars couldn't hit Paige, how would they have done against Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, ect?

I disagree with your assertions about the Negro Leagues. Only 8% of MLB today is African Americans. In 1960 when every team was integrated it was only 9%. Even a decade later it was less than 15%. It peaked at 18.7% in 1981. If the Negro Leagues were at the same level as MLB, that number would have approached 50%. Especially after expansion in 1961-62 and 1969. I believe the level of play was far below that of MLB and even AAA. The top level of players were of MLB quality but the vast majority were not.

[FrankWakefield]

Wagner

As a kid I would have said Ruth... I didn't see them play. I did read Mr Ritter's book, The Glory Of Their Times, listened to the album, and have repeatedly listened to the CD's that have more material. I've read old, contemporary articles in old Baseball Magazines. Again and again, from the minds of the people that played with Ruth, Cobb, Young, Mathewson, Johnson, Jackson, Lajoie, and the rest, the player that rises to the top is Honus Wagner. Branch Rickey knew a right smart about baseball, he says Wagner. Sam Crawford played beside Cobb and he says it was Wagner. I'm inclined to believe the many who were there and oughta know.

Aaron was a great player, but he didn't have much of an impact on baseball in the Pre War era. Neither did Mays. Pre-War.

[Frankish]

But it is baseball and we always compare players and teams across different era in baseball
It is part of the Allure of baseball and the history of baseball that makes it fun but also endless debates.
WE all use different criteria, we use different stats, we use the same stats but use it differently.

Exactly. This is what makes it fun. In this case, particularly the definition of "greatest."

My vote went to Ruth. I've read some good arguments for Wagner and Cobb but, in the end, to my mind they don't overshadow the case for Ruth. Maybe it's just how I think about greatness....

Sadly, we will never really know about the Negro League players. I'm not an expert, but I suspect that Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson (and Martin Dihigo) would have excelled in the majors, not just survived there but been star players. There's really no way to know if either of them could have matched the babe, but since (to my mind) no one else in that era did, I think the inconclusive result should go in Ruth's favor.

Also, for what it's worth, with respect to NL players vs Satchel Paige for a few at bats, etc., I don't think we can draw much in the way of useful conclusions. There just isn't enough data. If we were able to make those extrapolations, then the greatest Pre-War player might be Eiji Sawamura....

[akleinb611]

Many, many, (MANY!) years ago, a college friend, who was an outstanding logician, answered this question thusly:

Babe Ruth was the greatest player who ever lived, because if someone asks you who the greatest player who ever lived was, and your answer ISN'T Babe Ruth, your first job is to explain why your answer isn't Babe Ruth.

I can't improve on that.

Alan

[Fred]

At first, I thought it was a trick question... :p

[UKCardGuy]

I don't see how anyone could not answer Babe Ruth. It doesn't matter how the sports writers voted. There has only been one player in the history of the game to single handedly outhit an entire league. That player is Babe Ruth.

As talented and great as Cobb was, he didn't change the game. He only did things better than the players around him.

But Ruth did change the game, and every player after him has been trying to live up to what he did.

The question wasn't who most transformed baseball.... It was who was the greatest pre-war player. You said it yourself, Cobb did things better than the players around him. Isnt that the definition of "best"?

More than most on the list, Ruth benefited from the end of the dead ball era.

Considering that Wagner and Cobb played most of thier career when conditions were harder for batters and they have greater all around stats/skills... Cobb and Wagner are clearly ahead of Cobb. I know the modern romanticism is all about Ruth...but that doesn't make him the best.

For me, the list goes Cobb, Wagner then Ruth.

[darwinbulldog]

#1 Ruth
#2 WaJo

[Tabe]

Yeah, I can't really see how the answer would be anybody but Ruth. He destroyed pretty much every hitting record - other than average. He had an OBP over .500 five times. FIVE different seasons he was on base more often than not. And had four other seasons of .486 or above. He was on base nearly 10% more often than Cobb (.474 vs .433) AND slugged 35% higher than Cobb (.690 vs .512). AND he had 3+ outstanding seasons as a pitcher.

I'm a big fan of Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner but Ruth is so far out in front of both of them, they're fighting for 3rd place behind him*.

* - to be honest, I'd probably put Rogers Hornsby ahead of both Cobb and Ruth, too. Averaging .402 over a 5-year stretch while hitting for power tops anything Wagner or Cobb did.

[rats60]

In fairness to Wagner and Cobb, they slugged a lot lower than Ruth because they were hitting a dead ball and Ruth was hitting a juiced ball. I know I am one of the few that considers parks, but Ruth had a hitters friendly park 314 to right 385 to right center. Wagner 360 to left 462 to left center and 400 to left and 450 to center.

[clydepepper]

Amazing how many members didn't see 'Pre-War' in the poll's title.

Are we ALL home-skooled?


.

[UKCardGuy]

In fairness to Wagner and Cobb, they slugged a lot lower than Ruth because they were hitting a dead ball and Ruth was hitting a juiced ball. I know I am one of the few that considers parks, but Ruth had a hitters friendly park 314 to right 385 to right center. Wagner 360 to left 462 to left center and 400 to left and 450 to center.

This!

And remember that the rules changed in 1921 so that balls were changed when they got dirty or worn or damaged. That combined with a "juiced" ball and smaller parks helps to explain some of Ruth's success.

Have a look at this comparison of Cobb and Ruth's stats. https://mlbcomparisons.com/babe-ruth-vs-ty-cobb-comparison/

Except for the categories influenced by being a home run hitter, Cobb wins on almost all counts. That says to me that if you take away the benefits that Ruth had (fresh balls, juiced balls, parks etc) then Cobb is clearly the better player. Put it another way, if Cobb played ball from 1918-1938, his stats would be even better!

Ruth most definitely transformed baseball but that doesn't make him the best.

As an analogy, I'm a huge Beatles fan. They changed music when they came along. Like Ruth, they were the right people at the right time. But would I say that they were bigger musical geniuses than Mozart? Nope.

[Touch'EmAll]

Ruth came along at the absolute perfect time for his skills and style. This timing allowed him to become the larger than life player we all know and grant him title of best ever. What if Ruth came along 20 years earlier, or 20 years later - while still would have been awesome, probably not quite as awesome as it was. Ruth blossomed at the single biggest change ever to occur in the entire history of baseball.

The transition from Dead Ball era to Live Ball era makes it so very difficult, if not impossible to lump all Pre-War players together.

Stats aside, lets look at what the baseball community thought of the top players when the first Hall of Fame voting happened.

1. Cobb - 222 votes
2, tie. Ruth - 215 votes
2, tie. Wagner - 215 votes
4. Mathewson - 205 votes
5. Walter Johnson - 189 votes.

The largest percentage difference in voting was with Mathewson over Johnson.

Does this mean Cobb was better than Ruth - we don't really know, but overall the votes would put the feather in Cobb's cap. Same with Matty vs. Johnson.

[Tabe]

In fairness to Wagner and Cobb, they slugged a lot lower than Ruth because they were hitting a dead ball and Ruth was hitting a juiced ball. I know I am one of the few that considers parks, but Ruth had a hitters friendly park 314 to right 385 to right center. Wagner 360 to left 462 to left center and 400 to left and 450 to center.

Ruth hit 49 homers during the dead ball era while playing small parts of 3 seasons, half of another, and 80% of another. It took Cobb 10 seasons to do that - 7 full seasons plus parts of 3 others. Ruth led the majors in slugging and OPS both seasons he played in the outfield during the dead ball era.

While he may not have ended up with 714 homers if they hadn't changed the ball, there's no reason to think he wouldn't have continued to dominate. Look at 1919 - his first full season as something resembling a full-time outfielder and he set the single season home run record. Hitting a dead ball.

Yes, the HOF voting had Cobb ahead of Ruth. I'm not sure I'd put a whole lot of stock in that. Voters were picking from every player ever and Ruth had just retired. Plus, let's be honest, there were a lot of voters with bias against the modern style of play, favoring the high average and steals style of Cobb.

Bottom line, Ruth was a better hitter than Cobb even in the dead ball era.

[Touch'EmAll]

The dead ball era concluded at the end of the 1918 season. That year Ruth hit 11 total home runs - one per every 28.8 at-bats.

The next year, 1919, Ruth hit 29 home runs - one per every 14.8 at-bats.

Yes, Ruth may have been the better hitter. However, the OP was "who was the greatest player." Hitting aside, looking at all the other things that go into making a great player, Cobb might have the nod.

[tedzan]

Ted,

It was an absolute pleasure to chat with you today. Thanks for taking some time to speak with me. I greatly appreciate your willingness to share knowledge about the game and the hobby.

Best regards,

Eric

Hi Eric
It was great meeting you at the Philly Show this weekend, and we did have a very interesting conversation.....especially on this topic.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1933GoudeyBabeRuth149.jpg .


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[Tabe]

The dead ball era concluded at the end of the 1918 season.
Baseball Reference and Wikipedia both disagree with you. They, like everything else I've read over the last 40 years, put the end of it being the start of the 1920 season.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Deadball_Era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-ball_era

[Tabe]

Yes, Ruth may have been the better hitter. However, the OP was "who was the greatest player." Hitting aside, looking at all the other things that go into making a great player, Cobb might have the nod.
Ruth was so far out in front as a hitter no amount of stolen bases or defense could possibly make up the difference. Not to mention he was a world class pitcher for multiple years.

[Touch'EmAll]

Sorry, I was off a tad saying deadball era ended at conclusion of 1918 season, should of said 1919 (based on Wikipedia).

Per Wikipedia - first line: "In baseball the deadball era was the period from around 1900 to the emergence of Babe Ruth as a power hitter in 1919."

Also from same Wikipedia: "The yarn used to wrap the core of the ball was changed prior to the 1920 season."

And yeah, Ruth was the man, all others fall short.

[tedzan]

Hey guys,

Specifically, those of you who favor Cobb over Ruth. Cobb was about the same height as Ruth, but he didn't have the weight to generate the power in his swing that Ruth had.
Besides, if I recall correctly, Cobb held his bat with sort of a "choked-up" grip. No-way, with that kind of grip, could match the long-distance drives that Ruth hit.

Furthermore, Cobb's impressive Batting Average would not be the topps in the Majors if Ted Williams had not been so "stubborn" by constantly pulling his drives to Right-Field.
With the "Williams' O-F shift", Ted could have sliced the ball into the gap in Left-Field 440 times instead of taking a Walk. Then Ted would have hit an amazing .400 career BA.
And, Cobb would not be the leader in that stat.

In 1919, Ruth hit 29 HR's (the last year of the "Dead Ball" era). Then followed that up in 1920 with 54 HR's, and 59 HR's in 1921.

Me thinks that Cobb is overrated :)

Whatever, there is an excellent book by Tom Stanton titled "Ty and the Babe".
I highly recommend it. In the Appendix you'll find all the At-Bats of Ty Cobb versus Babe Ruth pitching to him.



1949 LEAF

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/baberuth49_1.jpg . . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/large/1949LeafPremiumBabeRuth50.jpg .


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1949LeafBabeRUTHcaption18.jpg--------https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/websize/bookcobbandruth.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[BobC]

Hey guys,

Specifically, those of you who favor Cobb over Ruth. Cobb was about the same height as Ruth, but he didn't have the weight to generate the power in his swing that Ruth had.
Besides, if I recall correctly, Cobb held his bat with sort of a "choked-up" grip. No-way, with that kind of grip, could match the long-distance drives that Ruth hit.

Furthermore, Cobb's impressive Batting Average would not be the topps in the Majors if Ted Williams had not been so "stubborn" by constantly pulling his drives to Right-Field.
With the "Williams' O-F shift", Ted could have sliced the ball into the gap in Left-Field 440 times instead of taking a Walk. Then Ted would have hit an amazing .400 career BA.
And, Cobb would not be the leader in that stat.

In 1919, Ruth hit 29 HR's (the last year of the "Dead Ball" era). Then followed that up in 1920 with 54 HR's, and 59 HR's in 1921.

Me thinks that Cobb is overrated :)

Whatever, there is an excellent book by Tom Stanton titled "Ty and the Babe".
I highly recommend it. In the Appendix you'll find all the At-Bats of Ty Cobb versus Babe Ruth pitching to him.


It is known that Cobb wasn't crazy about the home run style of play, much preferred the deadball era style he grew up with. Yet, there is the fact that Cobb is tied for the all-time major league record for the number of home runs hit in two consecutive games, along with the story he said something to a reporter about proving he could hit home runs if he really wanted to. A lot of speculation and debate about it, but the fact is he does hold part of an all-time major league home run record that still stands today. And one that Ruth couldn't equal. Also, Cobb did win the Triple Crown one year, Ruth never did that. Oh, and the home run record Cobb co-owns, none of the home runs he hit to match the record were inside-the-park home runs or were ones that bounced over the outfield wall. All were legit, over the fence homers.

Williams was really more of a post-war player, though he did start in the majors just before WWII began. Always considered him as post-war since that is when he played the bulk of his career.

[Tabe]

It is known that Cobb wasn't crazy about the home run style of play, much preferred the deadball era style he grew up with. Yet, there is the fact that Cobb is tied for the all-time major league record for the number of home runs hit in two consecutive games, along with the story he said something to a reporter about proving he could hit home runs if he really wanted to. A lot of speculation and debate about it, but the fact is he does hold part of an all-time major league home run record that still stands today. And one that Ruth couldn't equal. Also, Cobb did win the Triple Crown one year, Ruth never did that. Oh, and the home run record Cobb co-owns, none of the home runs he hit to match the record were inside-the-park home runs or were ones that bounced over the outfield wall. All were legit, over the fence homers.

Williams was really more of a post-war player, though he did start in the majors just before WWII began. Always considered him as post-war since that is when he played the bulk of his career.
That's kinda like saying Mike Cameron was better than either one because he hit 4 in one game and had a 5th caught at the fence.

[BobC]

That's kinda like saying Mike Cameron was better than either one because he hit 4 in one game and had a 5th caught at the fence.

Where in my post did I say one was better than the other? I specifically quoted and responded to TedZ's post about Cobb's batting grip and how he didn't hit many home runs, yet there is recorded proof that at least once in his career he was somewhat prolific in hitting home runs, which begs the question of if he just chose not to swing for the fences all the time like Ruth. For a hitter as good as Cobb, I would argue that him suddenly putting on such a power hitting display was more than just a fluke. Also that fact that during the height of the deadball era he could get the Triple Crown shows he could hold his own against others in the league as far as hitting home runs.

If anything, I was merely pointing out how Cobb and Ruth, though contemporaries, were decidedly different as hitters. And a lot of that may have had to do with choice as opposed to straight-up hitting ability.

And what the heck does Cameron have to do with any of this? He isn't even a pre-war player, which is the era this question is about. You totally did not understand the gist and purpose of my post, and made a bad assumption.

[rats60]

Ruth was so far out in front as a hitter no amount of stolen bases or defense could possibly make up the difference. Not to mention he was a world class pitcher for multiple years.

Ruth was a world class pitcher for 1 season. He had a couple above average seasons and his last season that he pitched in 1919, he was an average MLB pitcher.

Saying that Ruth was better than Cobb and Wagner is a valid opinion, but the difference is small. Saying Hornsby was better than Wagner and Cobb is a hot take. Bill James ranks Wagner #2 and Cobb #5, but Hornsby only #22.

[SAllen2556]

Hey guys,

Specifically, those of you who favor Cobb over Ruth. Cobb was about the same height as Ruth, but he didn't have the weight to generate the power in his swing that Ruth had.
Besides, if I recall correctly, Cobb held his bat with sort of a "choked-up" grip. No-way, with that kind of grip, could match the long-distance drives that Ruth hit.

Furthermore, Cobb's impressive Batting Average would not be the topps in the Majors if Ted Williams had not been so "stubborn" by constantly pulling his drives to Right-Field.
With the "Williams' O-F shift", Ted could have sliced the ball into the gap in Left-Field 440 times instead of taking a Walk. Then Ted would have hit an amazing .400 career BA.
And, Cobb would not be the leader in that stat.

In 1919, Ruth hit 29 HR's (the last year of the "Dead Ball" era). Then followed that up in 1920 with 54 HR's, and 59 HR's in 1921.

Me thinks that Cobb is overrated :)

Whatever, there is an excellent book by Tom Stanton titled "Ty and the Babe".
I highly recommend it. In the Appendix you'll find all the At-Bats of Ty Cobb versus Babe Ruth pitching to him.



1949 LEAF

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/baberuth49_1.jpg . . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/large/1949LeafPremiumBabeRuth50.jpg .


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/websize/1949LeafBabeRUTHcaption18.jpg--------https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/tedzan77/websize/bookcobbandruth.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.


Now sir, I understand you've been around a while and your opinion carries more weight, and I do, in fact, respect your opinion. However, in this particular instance I think your senility has finally gotten the best of you! ;) If anyone is overrated, it's Ruth not Cobb. I present the following evidence for Cobb:

Tris Speaker once said, "Babe was a great ballplayer, but Cobb was even greater.

The people who really knew baseball still favored Cobb, according even to Ruth's own manager, Miller Huggins.

First Hall of Fame Vote: Cobb received 222 out of a possible 226 votes. Ruth and Wagner each received 215 votes, Mathewson had 205 votes, and Johnson finished with 189.

"Make no mistake about that. The old boy was the greatest player I ever saw or hoped to see." - Babe Ruth

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel

1961 - "Cobb was the greatest ball player of all time and will never be equaled. Most record books simply talk about his hitting and base stealing. But he was a great outfielder with a great arm." (immediately after Ty died in July,'61) - Rogers Hornsby

"I haven't had the chance to see many of the great stars of the other league, but picking the greatest player that ever lived is easy, I think. I pick Ty Cobb. I guess every one will do the same. Cobb was a good fielder, the greatest baserunner in the game's history, the fastest thinker and the most consistent hitter. How can you name any one else? Eddie Collins, the keystone of my great infield of the old Athletics, is my second choice. Eddie was a marvelous ball player. I can't say too much for him. I'll name Lajoie third. Of the present-day players I pick Al Simmons first, and he is my fourth man of all time. I hate to leave off Mickey Cochrane, but I must name Babe Ruth, so he goes fifth.
-Connie Mack

Cobb received another first-place vote from Walter Johnson. Johnson was lavish in his praise of the "Georgia Peach." He gave Wagner second place and
then named Jackson, Ruth and Collins.

In July,1931, C. William Duncan conducted survey of Phil. Public Ledger of who is the greatest all-time:

B. Shotten: Cobb, Lajoie, Klein, Wagner, Ruth, Cochrane
Mack: Cobb, Collins, Lajoie, Simmons, Ruth
K. Gleason: Cobb, Wagner
B. McKechnie: Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Lajoie, Hornsby, Ruth
J. Burke: Wagner, Cobb, Lajoie, Collins, Hornsby
J. Mccarthy: Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Collins, Lajoie
Howley: Cobb, Wagner
W. Robinson: Cobb, Keeler, Ruth, Wagner, Ferguson
G. Street: Cobb, Wagner, Collins, F.Parent, Chase
B. Harris: Ruth, Cobb, Sisler, Simmons, Speaker
W. Johnson: Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Ruth, Collins
McGraw: Wagner, Cobb, Keeler, Simmons, Terry

Now please stop with this Ruth madness. He was popular - very popular. Mythically popular. And that's great. He may have saved the sport of baseball after the Black Sox scandal. But listen to his contemporaries and please just stop this "Ruth is the Greatest" madness now! :D

[FourStrikes]

Boom!, sir!

Many, many, (MANY!) years ago, a college friend, who was an outstanding logician, answered this question thusly:

Babe Ruth was the greatest player who ever lived, because if someone asks you who the greatest player who ever lived was, and your answer ISN'T Babe Ruth, your first job is to explain why your answer isn't Babe Ruth.

I can't improve on that.

Alan

[Eric72]

...Cobb is overrated...


I've heard and read many words used to describe Ty Cobb. This may be the first time the word was "overrated."

[Huysmans]

Now sir, I understand you've been around a while and your opinion carries more weight, and I do, in fact, respect your opinion. However, in this particular instance I think your senility has finally gotten the best of you! ;) If anyone is overrated, it's Ruth not Cobb. I present the following evidence for Cobb:

Tris Speaker once said, "Babe was a great ballplayer, but Cobb was even greater.

The people who really knew baseball still favored Cobb, according even to Ruth's own manager, Miller Huggins.

First Hall of Fame Vote: Cobb received 222 out of a possible 226 votes. Ruth and Wagner each received 215 votes, Mathewson had 205 votes, and Johnson finished with 189.

"Make no mistake about that. The old boy was the greatest player I ever saw or hoped to see." - Babe Ruth

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel

1961 - "Cobb was the greatest ball player of all time and will never be equaled. Most record books simply talk about his hitting and base stealing. But he was a great outfielder with a great arm." (immediately after Ty died in July,'61) - Rogers Hornsby

"I haven't had the chance to see many of the great stars of the other league, but picking the greatest player that ever lived is easy, I think. I pick Ty Cobb. I guess every one will do the same. Cobb was a good fielder, the greatest baserunner in the game's history, the fastest thinker and the most consistent hitter. How can you name any one else? Eddie Collins, the keystone of my great infield of the old Athletics, is my second choice. Eddie was a marvelous ball player. I can't say too much for him. I'll name Lajoie third. Of the present-day players I pick Al Simmons first, and he is my fourth man of all time. I hate to leave off Mickey Cochrane, but I must name Babe Ruth, so he goes fifth.
-Connie Mack

Cobb received another first-place vote from Walter Johnson. Johnson was lavish in his praise of the "Georgia Peach." He gave Wagner second place and
then named Jackson, Ruth and Collins.

In July,1931, C. William Duncan conducted survey of Phil. Public Ledger of who is the greatest all-time:

B. Shotten: Cobb, Lajoie, Klein, Wagner, Ruth, Cochrane
Mack: Cobb, Collins, Lajoie, Simmons, Ruth
K. Gleason: Cobb, Wagner
B. McKechnie: Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Lajoie, Hornsby, Ruth
J. Burke: Wagner, Cobb, Lajoie, Collins, Hornsby
J. Mccarthy: Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Collins, Lajoie
Howley: Cobb, Wagner
W. Robinson: Cobb, Keeler, Ruth, Wagner, Ferguson
G. Street: Cobb, Wagner, Collins, F.Parent, Chase
B. Harris: Ruth, Cobb, Sisler, Simmons, Speaker
W. Johnson: Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Ruth, Collins
McGraw: Wagner, Cobb, Keeler, Simmons, Terry

Now please stop with this Ruth madness. He was popular - very popular. Mythically popular. And that's great. He may have saved the sport of baseball after the Black Sox scandal. But listen to his contemporaries and please just stop this "Ruth is the Greatest" madness now! :D

This basically says it all.... nothing more to add.
The opinion of contemporaries should carry the most weight, period.

Who are we to judge who was best when no one alive could see and experience these men play??

.... imagine in 100 years, people who never saw Mike Trout play stating how good he was, while ignoring, or worse, correcting the opinions of the actual people - US - that witnessed him play.
Let's all be honest here... the premise is laughable.

Cobb is King.

[Frankish]

"I haven't had the chance to see many of the great stars of the other league, but picking the greatest player that ever lived is easy, I think. I pick Ty Cobb. I guess every one will do the same. Cobb was a good fielder, the greatest baserunner in the game's history, the fastest thinker and the most consistent hitter. How can you name any one else? Eddie Collins, the keystone of my great infield of the old Athletics, is my second choice. Eddie was a marvelous ball player. I can't say too much for him. I'll name Lajoie third. Of the present-day players I pick Al Simmons first, and he is my fourth man of all time. I hate to leave off Mickey Cochrane, but I must name Babe Ruth, so he goes fifth.
-Connie Mack

All of the other testimonials and evidence aside, this made me chuckle. Admittedly we have the lens of history between us and that moment in time, but to claim that Al Simmons was a greater player than Ruth and to struggle with placing Ruth above Mickey Cochrane suggests and odd perspective. Connie Mack had a truly amazing career, but I can't help wondering if the constant struggle (financially and in the standings) compared to Ruth's larger than life success didn't result in a few sour grapes....

[tedzan]

It is known that Cobb wasn't crazy about the home run style of play, much preferred the deadball era style he grew up with. Yet, there is the fact that Cobb is tied for the all-time major league record for the number of home runs hit in two consecutive games, along with the story he said something to a reporter about proving he could hit home runs if he really wanted to. A lot of speculation and debate about it, but the fact is he does hold part of an all-time major league home run record that still stands today. And one that Ruth couldn't equal. Also, Cobb did win the Triple Crown one year, Ruth never did that. Oh, and the home run record Cobb co-owns, none of the home runs he hit to match the record were inside-the-park home runs or were ones that bounced over the outfield wall. All were legit, over the fence homers.



Hi Bob

My gauge of the "greatness" of a BB player is his World Series performance. Ruth (and I include Mantle). Two significant s factors...... first, the fact that the Yankees played in 10 World Series while Ruth was on the team tells you a lot. He was an inspiration to his team which got them there. And his .326 BA, 15 HR's, and 33 RBI's stats far exceed what Cobb did in his three World Series appearances.


Incidentally,
I got a chuckle out of your "Cobb Triple Crown" comment. In 1923 Ruth batted .393....41 HRs....130 RBI's. Numbers much greater than Cobb's. But, Heilmann led the AL with .403 BA.
that prevented Ruth from being the Triple Crown winner in the AL in 1923.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[SD]

Of course Cobb's colleagues, who played a decade before Ruth are going to go with their generation's star. Plus Ruth was primarily a pitcher for most of the dead ball era. Bottom line the stats don't lie.

Reality is Wagner had similar offensive production during the dead ball era and was hands down the best SS in baseball. Cobb wasn't even the best CF of his era (Speaker). SS is a much more premium position then CF. We know this by the lack of offensive production from SS in the HOF compared to OF. Cobb also played well into the live ball era while Wagner did not. Yet Cobb's only produced 3 seasons of 10 or more HR (12 2xs) towards the end of his career and he was no longer a great base stealing threat, getting caught about as frequently as he was successful. Regulating him to a station to station ball player towards the end.

Was Cobb the best singles hitter of his time, yes. Did his 76% successful base stealing ability allow him to dominate, yes. The total base aspect has to come into play. Ruth had more in alot fewer Ab's and his WAR reflects his value (183.1 to Cobb's 151.5). Ruth averaged a rbi 77% of the time he got a hit compared to 46% for Cobb. Runs are the most important thing in the game. No one drive in runs better then Babe.

I'll take Ruths total bases and RBIs in a shorter career over Cobb all day everyday. Cobb was great but his impact, by the numbers wasn't greater then Ruths. Why Ruth's WAR is the highest of all time.

Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[SD]

Now sir, I understand you've been around a while and your opinion carries more weight, and I do, in fact, respect your opinion. However, in this particular instance I think your senility has finally gotten the best of you! ;) If anyone is overrated, it's Ruth not Cobb. I present the following evidence for Cobb:



Tris Speaker once said, "Babe was a great ballplayer, but Cobb was even greater.



The people who really knew baseball still favored Cobb, according even to Ruth's own manager, Miller Huggins.



First Hall of Fame Vote: Cobb received 222 out of a possible 226 votes. Ruth and Wagner each received 215 votes, Mathewson had 205 votes, and Johnson finished with 189.



"Make no mistake about that. The old boy was the greatest player I ever saw or hoped to see." - Babe Ruth



"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel



1961 - "Cobb was the greatest ball player of all time and will never be equaled. Most record books simply talk about his hitting and base stealing. But he was a great outfielder with a great arm." (immediately after Ty died in July,'61) - Rogers Hornsby



"I haven't had the chance to see many of the great stars of the other league, but picking the greatest player that ever lived is easy, I think. I pick Ty Cobb. I guess every one will do the same. Cobb was a good fielder, the greatest baserunner in the game's history, the fastest thinker and the most consistent hitter. How can you name any one else? Eddie Collins, the keystone of my great infield of the old Athletics, is my second choice. Eddie was a marvelous ball player. I can't say too much for him. I'll name Lajoie third. Of the present-day players I pick Al Simmons first, and he is my fourth man of all time. I hate to leave off Mickey Cochrane, but I must name Babe Ruth, so he goes fifth.

-Connie Mack



Cobb received another first-place vote from Walter Johnson. Johnson was lavish in his praise of the "Georgia Peach." He gave Wagner second place and

then named Jackson, Ruth and Collins.



In July,1931, C. William Duncan conducted survey of Phil. Public Ledger of who is the greatest all-time:



B. Shotten: Cobb, Lajoie, Klein, Wagner, Ruth, Cochrane

Mack: Cobb, Collins, Lajoie, Simmons, Ruth

K. Gleason: Cobb, Wagner

B. McKechnie: Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Lajoie, Hornsby, Ruth

J. Burke: Wagner, Cobb, Lajoie, Collins, Hornsby

J. Mccarthy: Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Collins, Lajoie

Howley: Cobb, Wagner

W. Robinson: Cobb, Keeler, Ruth, Wagner, Ferguson

G. Street: Cobb, Wagner, Collins, F.Parent, Chase

B. Harris: Ruth, Cobb, Sisler, Simmons, Speaker

W. Johnson: Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Ruth, Collins

McGraw: Wagner, Cobb, Keeler, Simmons, Terry



Now please stop with this Ruth madness. He was popular - very popular. Mythically popular. And that's great. He may have saved the sport of baseball after the Black Sox scandal. But listen to his contemporaries and please just stop this "Ruth is the Greatest" madness now! :D

Basically a full list of players that played in an era before Ruth or managed against and publicly despised him. Yet he still made their lists.

Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

This!

And remember that the rules changed in 1921 so that balls were changed when they got dirty or worn or damaged. That combined with a "juiced" ball and smaller parks helps to explain some of Ruth's success.

Have a look at this comparison of Cobb and Ruth's stats. https://mlbcomparisons.com/babe-ruth-vs-ty-cobb-comparison/

Except for the categories influenced by being a home run hitter, Cobb wins on almost all counts. That says to me that if you take away the benefits that Ruth had (fresh balls, juiced balls, parks etc) then Cobb is clearly the better player. Put it another way, if Cobb played ball from 1918-1938, his stats would be even better!

Ruth most definitely transformed baseball but that doesn't make him the best.

As an analogy, I'm a huge Beatles fan. They changed music when they came along. Like Ruth, they were the right people at the right time. But would I say that they were bigger musical geniuses than Mozart? Nope.

And how good a pitcher was Cobb?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Now sir, I understand you've been around a while and your opinion carries more weight, and I do, in fact, respect your opinion. However, in this particular instance I think your senility has finally gotten the best of you! ;) If anyone is overrated, it's Ruth not Cobb. I present the following evidence for Cobb:

Tris Speaker once said, "Babe was a great ballplayer, but Cobb was even greater.

The people who really knew baseball still favored Cobb, according even to Ruth's own manager, Miller Huggins.

First Hall of Fame Vote: Cobb received 222 out of a possible 226 votes. Ruth and Wagner each received 215 votes, Mathewson had 205 votes, and Johnson finished with 189.

"Make no mistake about that. The old boy was the greatest player I ever saw or hoped to see." - Babe Ruth

"I never saw anyone like Ty Cobb. No one even close to him. He was the greatest all time ballplayer. That guy was superhuman, amazing." - Casey Stengel

1961 - "Cobb was the greatest ball player of all time and will never be equaled. Most record books simply talk about his hitting and base stealing. But he was a great outfielder with a great arm." (immediately after Ty died in July,'61) - Rogers Hornsby

"I haven't had the chance to see many of the great stars of the other league, but picking the greatest player that ever lived is easy, I think. I pick Ty Cobb. I guess every one will do the same. Cobb was a good fielder, the greatest baserunner in the game's history, the fastest thinker and the most consistent hitter. How can you name any one else? Eddie Collins, the keystone of my great infield of the old Athletics, is my second choice. Eddie was a marvelous ball player. I can't say too much for him. I'll name Lajoie third. Of the present-day players I pick Al Simmons first, and he is my fourth man of all time. I hate to leave off Mickey Cochrane, but I must name Babe Ruth, so he goes fifth.
-Connie Mack

Cobb received another first-place vote from Walter Johnson. Johnson was lavish in his praise of the "Georgia Peach." He gave Wagner second place and
then named Jackson, Ruth and Collins.

In July,1931, C. William Duncan conducted survey of Phil. Public Ledger of who is the greatest all-time:

B. Shotten: Cobb, Lajoie, Klein, Wagner, Ruth, Cochrane
Mack: Cobb, Collins, Lajoie, Simmons, Ruth
K. Gleason: Cobb, Wagner
B. McKechnie: Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Lajoie, Hornsby, Ruth
J. Burke: Wagner, Cobb, Lajoie, Collins, Hornsby
J. Mccarthy: Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Collins, Lajoie
Howley: Cobb, Wagner
W. Robinson: Cobb, Keeler, Ruth, Wagner, Ferguson
G. Street: Cobb, Wagner, Collins, F.Parent, Chase
B. Harris: Ruth, Cobb, Sisler, Simmons, Speaker
W. Johnson: Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Ruth, Collins
McGraw: Wagner, Cobb, Keeler, Simmons, Terry

Now please stop with this Ruth madness. He was popular - very popular. Mythically popular. And that's great. He may have saved the sport of baseball after the Black Sox scandal. But listen to his contemporaries and please just stop this "Ruth is the Greatest" madness now! :D

Contemporaries are probably the worst people to use. Contemporaries are the people who stuffed the HOF with mediocre players. Hell LaRussa browbeat a committee into putting Harold Baines in. You act like contemporaries are somehow impartial arbiters when in fact they are the most prejudiced.

[Huysmans]

Contemporaries are probably the worst people to use. Contemporaries are the people who stuffed the HOF with mediocre players. Hell LaRussa browbeat a committee into putting Harold Baines in. You act like contemporaries are somehow impartial arbiters when in fact they are the most prejudiced.

By that logic.... no one can fairly judge anyone they witnessed play??
So you're saying that it's up to the people that DID NOT see the individual play to give the only fair and best opinion on ability? C'mon! Get real!
This must be the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread.
It's good that only NON-contemporary players always tell the complete truth with no biases :D Who knew???

This is the problem with these discussions... people take facts, and try to rationalize and marry them with self-serving opinions.
Making assumptions on how past players have commented to fit your own agenda and belief is no legitimate argument... ever.

As to your other point.... how good of a goaltender was Wayne Gretzky?
I guess he can't be the best hockey player of all-time :rolleyes:

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

By that logic.... no one can fairly judge anyone they witnessed play??
So you're saying that it's up to the people that DID NOT see the individual play to give the only fair and best opinion on ability? C'mon! Get real!
This must be the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread.
It's good that only NON-contemporary players always tell the complete truth with no biases :D Who knew???

This is the problem with these discussions... people take facts, and try to rationalize and marry them with self-serving opinions.
Making assumptions on how past players have commented to fit your own agenda and belief is no legitimate argument... ever.

As to your other point.... how good of a goaltender was Wayne Gretzky?
I guess he can't be the best hockey player of all-time :rolleyes:

It is very hard to take personal bias out of observation when there's no real reason to. The contemporaries have no reason to be unbiased therefore why would they be? Again these guys put players like Ted Lyons and Lloyd Waner in the HOF. Frankly I think players in general should not be counted on to give unbiased opinions. I would argue you need to go to the numbers for the unbiased truth.

You're other point is pretty poorly made because nobody has done what you're suggesting so it's irrelevant. If Bobby Orr, Mario Lemieux, Gordie Howe or Mark Messier played 4 outstanding seasons at goalie then switched and become the studs they were as position players, then yes it would greatly impact my opinion of who the greatest hockey player of all time is. Since nobody has done that, let alone someone in the argument for all time greatest player, saying what you said about Gretzky is pretty specious. In baseball Ruth actually DID it so you have to take that into consideration.

[tedzan]

Now sir, I understand you've been around a while and your opinion carries more weight, and I do, in fact, respect your opinion. However, in this particular instance I think your senility has finally gotten the best of you! ;) If anyone is overrated, it's Ruth not Cobb.


Hey,
I am 80+ years old, and I seen a lot of Baseball since 1947. I may have an excuse for being "senile". So, what's your excuse ?

I can understand you favor Cobb since you live in Detroit, but tell us why he played in only three World Series, which he got only 17 hits in 17 games, and batted only .262 ?
Is that mediocre performance indicative of greatness ? ? Cobb's World Series numbers absolutely pale by comparison to Ruth's winning numbers.

Here's my all-time great team.....notice that Cobb is omitted (replaced in CF by Tris Speaker).

1st base..... Lou Gehrig
2nd base.... Rogers Hornsby
3rd base..... Mel Ott
S-S............ Honus Wagner
L-F............. Ted Williams
C-F............. Tris Speaker
R-F............. Babe Ruth
Catcher....... Jimmy Foxx
Pitcher........ Walter Johnson



TED Z
.

[Frankish]

You're other point is pretty poorly made because nobody has done what you're suggesting so it's irrelevant. If Bobby Orr, Mario Lemieux, Gordie Howe or Mark Messier played 4 outstanding seasons at goalie then switched and become the studs they were as position players, then yes it would greatly impact my opinion of who the greatest hockey player of all time is. Since nobody has done that, let alone someone in the argument for all time greatest player, saying what you said about Gretzky is pretty specious. In baseball Ruth actually DID it so you have to take that into consideration.

It's such an interesting point, something we saw this season with Ohtani, as well, because pitchers in baseball can also hit.

Any of the hockey players mentioned would not only have had to be good/great goalies early in their career but also able to score in those same season for the argument to make sense.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It's such an interesting point, something we saw this season with Ohtani, as well, because pitchers in baseball can also hit.

Any of the hockey players mentioned would not only have had to be good/great goalies early in their career but also able to score in those same season for the argument to make sense.

Well it's not apples to apples because unless you're Ron Hextall goalies don't really score. While a pitcher HAD to bat (and still does in one league)

[Frankish]

Well it's not apples to apples because unless you're Ron Hextall goalies don't really score. While a pitcher HAD to bat (and still does in one league)

Yes, exactly my point. It's a bad analogy.

[BobC]

Hi Bob

My gauge of the "greatness" of a BB player is his World Series performance. Ruth (and I include Mantle). Two significant s factors...... first, the fact that the Yankees played in 10 World Series while Ruth was on the team tells you a lot. He was an inspiration to his team which got them there. And his .326 BA, 15 HR's, and 33 RBI's stats far exceed what Cobb did in his three World Series appearances.


Incidentally,
I got a chuckle out of your "Cobb Triple Crown" comment. In 1923 Ruth batted .393....41 HRs....130 RBI's. Numbers much greater than Cobb's. But, Heilmann led the AL with .403 BA.
that prevented Ruth from being the Triple Crown winner in the AL in 1923.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

All due respect, the World Series alone is a nominal factor, at best, in determining how good an individual player is. Baseball is a team sport, and regardless of how good an individual is, they cannot single-handedly propel a team all by themself to always win. Now if you want to talk golf, tennis, or boxing, that's different. The teams that Ruth played on were stacked with other great players, so pitchers couldn't get by just pitching around Ruth all the time. They didn't nickname the Yankee's lineup back then as Murderer's Row for nothing. In fact, what other pre-war lineups can you name that were considered so good that they got their own nickname like that? Certainly none of Cobb's teams to my knowledge ever got anywhere near that kind of credit or acclaim.

Also, baseball has always been known as a grind, where players have to go through the long, hard season to even get to the playoffs or World Series. Not downplaying how important it is when a ballplayer does exceedingly well during a World Series, but to base one's opinion as to how great of a player they are largely on that factor seems quite disrespectful to all the other great ballplayers who have ever played, but were not fortunate enough to play alongside enough other great ballplayers to achieve overall team success. Plus, Ruth played for New York, the largest city and and arguably the biggest market at the time. The hype and exposure he received was unparralleled. Think about this, what if Ruth had ended up playing for a different team like Cleveland, and still hit all the home runs he did, but never went to and won all the World Series championships he did with the Yankees. Would he still be the mythical figure he is today and credited with supposedly saving baseball single-handedly after the Black Sox scandal? Or was at least some of that legend not also due to him being lucky enough to play on a team loaded with other great players and also being hyped by a media and market that were pretty much unequalled at the time?

In today's game, Mike Trout often gets called the best player of his time. His cards have sold for record amounts, and the media loves him, but he is not overly quirky or has any strange or unusual habits or stories that make him exceptionally memorable. Say Trout finishes out his career with the Angels and no major surprises or scandals, and ends up in several top 10 offensive categories all-time. Yet what has all that baseball ability gotten him while playing for the Angels, certainly no significant playoff or World Series exposure, and likely none in the future if he stays with them. Also, he's now got a new teammate with a much better story and hype than Trout ever had. So even if Trout continues putting up great numbers for several more years, is he possibly going to be overshadowed on his own team by Ohtani? And how will that be reflected in the way Trout is looked at and remembered by the general public 25, 50, 100 years after he's done playing? I'm not talking about SABR nerds or collector geeks like myself, but the general public. Chances are he may not be so well remembered, and largely forgotten, lacking any special story or circumstances that make him larger than life. I bring this up because it may help to further explain the difficulty in trying to not just compare players from different eras, but even compare contemporary players from similar times long past when we have no one with any first hand knowledge or observation of them still around today to give an honest, first hand comparison of how they really stacked up to each other. That is why I wonder if as an earlier poster already put forth, we should go with who many respected and knowledgable baseball people of that time time felt was the best player then.

And glad I gave you a laugh, but in all seriousness, that Cobb actually led the majors in home runs one season was the salient point I was most trying to get across. The fact that it was known he was not trying to hit home runs, as you aptly pointed out by his use of a choked-up batting grip, yet he still was able to lead the majors in that category one season during the height of the deadball era, points to Cobb having an ability that was ahead of most all others of his contemporaries. At least till the end of the deadball era. And again, look at the teammates Ruth had around him most of his career versus who Cobb, Wagner, and others were surrounded with. Aside from hitting a lot of solo home runs, you need other players to be on base when a player is up to bat if they really want to get their RBI totals among league leaders. Ruth's easiest categories to lead in the Triple Crown were HRs and RBIs, as no one else was trying (and able) to hit home runs like he was initially when the deadball era ended. And since RBIs are a direct by-product of HRs, it is a given that Ruth would normally be among the league's RBI leaders, year in and year out. Now the fact that he couldn't also get the top average one year to win the Triple Crown does not disparage Ruth in any way. There were a lot of great hitters back then to contend with, and Heilman was a great player in his own right, and very deserving of winning the AL batting average crown that year. But the manner in which you phrased your comment and made it a point to specifically compare Ruth's 1923 Triple Crown stats to those of Cobb in his Triple Crown season in a disparaging manner is disrespectful not only to Cobb, but to every other AL player during Cobb's Triple Crown season. Regardless of the fact that the two seasons you are comparing are only 14 years apart, the changes to how the game was being played, especially in terms of things like the banning of spitballs and the deadball era being over during Ruth's 1923 season, make the direct correlation you are hinting at less than appropriate and comparable. Instead of pointing to how Cobb only had 9 HRs in his 1909 Triple Crown season while Ruth had so many more as he hit 41 in 1923, perhaps a better question would be how come no one else hit as many as Cobb that year he won the Triple Crown? And not only did Cobb win the AL Triple Crown in 1909, which is a rare achievement unto itself, he is one of I believe only 5 or 6 others to have won the Triple Crown where his stats bested everyone in majors, and not just in the AL or NL. So that means Cobb was going against, and bested, the likes of Wagner, Lajoie, Speaker, and others considered as possibly the all-time best pre-war player, in their prime. By the time Ruth got to the Yankees, those players were already entering their mid to late thirties, and Joe Jackson was getting banned, yet he stll couldn't get that elusive batting average title when he needed it. So bottom line, what Cobb did is no mean feat, regardless of the gross numbers he put up compared to numbers Ruth put up years later, after banning spitballs, juicing up the formerly "dead" balls, and who knows what other little tweaks and rule changes to the game to squeeze more offense out of it so the owners could make more money.

Quite frankly Ted, I've read and followed your posts and marveled at your knowledge on this forum over many years, but was never so disappointed in you to see you make such a disparaging remark about Cobb, and by extension, every other player during the 1909 season. Obviously your comment that my mentioning Cobb's Triple Crown when Ruth did not ever win one caused you to chuckle implies you found that to be some type of humorous or funny comparison, or in other words, some type of joke. I was actually mentioning Cobb's Triple Crown season not so much for the fact that Ruth didn't win one, but to illustrate how even though he wasn't into hitting HRs, Cobb still managed to lead the entire majors in HRs at least one year during his career, a feat which Ruth accomplished numerous times.

I am not disparaging Ruth in the slightest, but neither am I discounting Cobb, Wagner, and others simply because the rules and equipment were much different when they played the bulk of their careers. Time and the media have played such a huge factor over all these years as to what players are remembered and revered for, and can easily distort modern opinions and thinking. Think about what i was saying before about Mike Trout, and HONESTLY ask yourself how he may be viewed 100 years from now, and keep that perspective in mind when trying to compare past players against each other today.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Ty Cobb led the league with 9 home runs in the dead ball era, it's true. All 9 were inside the park, so not particularly indicative of some hidden power he opted not to use.

That being said I do have to agree with you that as a team sport World Series performance just can't be the "be all, end all" by that logic Ted Williams was an abject failure as a baseball player and Billy Martin was an all-time great. You can't just throw out career accomplishments because the Red Sox (for one example) never had any pitching to speak of in Ted's career.

For my money Cobb, Ruth and Williams are the three greatest ball players ever. I'm not overly hung up on how one ranks them, or even if someone disagrees, but for me Ruth's pitching puts him over the top of a very tight race, and just for Ted Z, Ruth was also one of the greatest PITCHERS in World Series history. So he's got that going for him, which is nice.

[bnorth]

My biased opinion is Ty Cobb. Weirdly I have never been a fan of the home run.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My biased opinion is Ty Cobb. Weirdly I have never been a fan of the home run.

I agree, Cobb should've stopped at third, damn show-off.

[mrreality68]

Cobb vs. Ruth

I will take either one as the Greatest Player Pre-War Era

You can use stats to argue your cause for either player.

IT is just amazing how great both players were and how much they both positively made a lasting impact on Baseball and its popularity.

[BobC]

Contemporaries are probably the worst people to use. Contemporaries are the people who stuffed the HOF with mediocre players. Hell LaRussa browbeat a committee into putting Harold Baines in. You act like contemporaries are somehow impartial arbiters when in fact they are the most prejudiced.

All due respect, but voting for who goes into the HOF is a bit different than ranking who one thinks is the all-time greatest pre-war player. All of the possible people on that list are already in the HOF, except Jackson, so there is really no advantage or additional prestige to be given the title of greatest of all.

The list of people who ranked who they thought were the greatest pre-war players, that was put up by an earlier poster from a 1931 poll, included some pretty prominent and well known baseball people, Mack, McKechnie, McCarthy, Harris, McGraw, and so on. I believe most of those polled were, or had been, managers/players at the time, and would thus be considered to have a pretty good eye for baseball talent and ability. And this was several years before the HOF even existed so there really isn't a lot of bias from that institution playing into their decisions. Also, these people didn't all play with or manage the players that repeatedly kept getting named on this all-time greatest list. Now I did see that Joe McCarthy, who had actually managed Ruth, put him down as the all-time greatest, Cobb second. Couldn't that have involved some bias/favoritism as well? Of the others polled, Bucky Harris was the only other one to put Ruth first, and he also listed Cobb second.

Of the twelve people polled, seven listed Cobb first, three listed Wagner first, and only two listed Ruth first, including his own manager. And of the ones that listed Cobb first, I don't believe any of them ever managed or played with him. The rumours and stories about Cobb being despised by many in baseball are just that, stories perpetuated by the likes of Al Stumph and even Ken Burns. Still, I fail to see how the rankings by this group from back in 1931 displays any type of favoritism or bias for Cobb.

But of the twelve different people polled, the one that intrigued me the most was Walter Johnson's rankings. Of all the people on that list, I believe Johnson is the only one to have actually pitched extensively to Ruth, Cobb, and Joe Jackson, all when they were in their primes. Don't believe Wagner and Johnson ever faced each other in an actual game as they were in different leagues during their playing careers. Still found it somewhat surprising that Johnson would then rank Cobb as #1, Wagner as #2, and then Joe Jackson as #3, before finally listing Ruth as #4 followed by Eddie Collins at #5. Scott, forgive me, but if arguably one of, if not, the greatest pre-war pitchers of all-time says he feels Cobb and Wagner were better than Ruth, I think you at least have to listen.

[tedzan]

All due respect, the World Series alone is a nominal factor, at best, in determining how good an individual player is. Baseball is a team sport, and regardless of how good an individual is, they cannot single-handedly propel a team all by themself to always win.

Obviously, I cannot attest to stories about Ruth by his team-mates. I can attest to comments regarding Mickey Mantle by his team-mates which I've personally heard from (such as
Tommy Henrich, Yogi Berra, Don Larsen, Johnny Sain, Charlie Silvera and my hometown nearby neighbor Phil Rizzuto) all of which talked about how Mantle's everyday performance inspired the team to play the game better. This same type of inspiration has been suggested in books written about Babe Ruth's influence on his team-mates during the years 1920
to the early 1930's.



And glad I gave you a laugh, but in all seriousness, that Cobb actually led the majors in home runs one season was the salient point I was most trying to get across. The fact that it was known he was not trying to hit home runs, as you aptly pointed out by his use of a choked-up batting grip, yet he still was able to lead the majors in that category one season during the height of the deadball era, points to Cobb having an ability that was ahead of most all others of his contemporaries. At least till the end of the deadball era. perhaps a better question would be how come no one else hit as many as Cobb that year he won the Triple Crown?

Come on Bob, for you to use such an anecdotal example during the Dead-Ball era regarding HR's which were subsequently ruled Ground-Rule Doubles is ridiculous. But if you insist,
on bringing up this "Triple-Crown" example of Cobb's, then I have to remind you that Ruth hit 11 HR's in 1918, and 29 in 1919 in the Dead-Ball era.

Actually, you are "grasping at straws" by using such a weak example to make your argument that Cobb was better than Ruth. I find this very disappointing. And, my discussion with
you ENDS here.....PERIOD.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

[SAllen2556]

Hey,
I am 80+ years old, and I seen a lot of Baseball since 1947. I may have an excuse for being "senile". So, what's your excuse ?

I can understand you favor Cobb since you live in Detroit, but tell us why he played in only three World Series, which he got only 17 hits in 17 games, and batted only .262 ?
Is that mediocre performance indicative of greatness ? ? Cobb's World Series numbers absolutely pale by comparison to Ruth's winning numbers.

Here's my all-time great team.....notice that Cobb is omitted (replaced in CF by Tris Speaker).

1st base..... Lou Gehrig
2nd base.... Rogers Hornsby
3rd base..... Mel Ott
S-S............ Honus Wagner
L-F............. Ted Williams
C-F............. Tris Speaker
R-F............. Babe Ruth
Catcher....... Jimmy Foxx
Pitcher........ Walter Johnson



TED Z
.

I know you're not arguing that just because the Yankees have bought just about every pennant they've ever won that that makes Babe Ruth the greatest all-time. Ha!

Cobb only played in 3 World Series because the Tigers never had any pitching. Check out the offensive stats of Cobb's Tiger teams and those around Cobb when he played. He absolutely made those around him better hitters. Gehringer, Bobby Veach, Heilmann, Heinie Manush, all players who credit Cobb. Who has ever claimed that Babe Ruth made him a better hitter?

And why, if we use your logic, is Ted Williams on your list? And Walter Johnson was only 3 and 3 in his (only) two world series.

As far as senility goes. I'd be willing to bet at 55 I'm more senile than you are at 80. :)

[BobC]

Ty Cobb led the league with 9 home runs in the dead ball era, it's true. All 9 were inside the park, so not particularly indicative of some hidden power he opted not to use.

That being said I do have to agree with you that as a team sport World Series performance just can't be the "be all, end all" by that logic Ted Williams was an abject failure as a baseball player and Billy Martin was an all-time great. You can't just throw out career accomplishments because the Red Sox (for one example) never had any pitching to speak of in Ted's career.

For my money Cobb, Ruth and Williams are the three greatest ball players ever. I'm not overly hung up on how one ranks them, or even if someone disagrees, but for me Ruth's pitching puts him over the top of a very tight race, and just for Ted Z, Ruth was also one of the greatest PITCHERS in World Series history. So he's got that going for him, which is nice.


True they were all inside the park home runs, but that had much to do with the size of the fields and if they even had a fixed outfield wall. And again I ask, how come no one else matched or beat that number then? Ruth had all the advantages of smaller parks, a "live" ball, the banning of spitballs, and a major league ownership group supported by by New York media/marketing that wanted him to keep hitting more and more home runs so they'd keep packing the fans in. And don't forget, during the bulk of Ruth's career what is today considered a ground rule double when a fair ball bounces over an outfield fence, back then was counted as a home run.

And it was because of all these changes that I had also previously brought up in an earlier post the major league record Cobb shares with many others by having hit 5 HRs over two consecutive MLB games. Cobb was the second person to ever do this, achieving the feat in 1925 when he was already 38 years old. And by the way, all 5 five were over the fence. Ruth never equalled this feat despite all his home run prowess. And it wasn't equalled again till Tony Lazzeri matched the feat in 1936. It didn't happen again till Kiner did it on two separate occassions in 1947. The story/myth is that Cobb didn't really care for Ruth and all his HRs and supposedly told some reporter he could hit HRs if he wanted to. It's a bit like the Ruth "Called Shot" story, but regardless, Cobb does still hold a piece of a HR record that Ruth couldn't best or ever match.

Oh, and the first person to actually create the initial record of 5 HRs over two consecutive games was Cap Anson who set it in 1884. How much you want to bet at least one of Anson's HRs was similar to what Cobb did in 1909? If so, that would make Cobb the first person to have set/met that record by actually hitting 5 balls over the fence, at the age of 38. Cobb was too good of a hitter for that to have been some lucky fluke. Whether he said something to a reporter or not, he obviously did something different with the way he batted over those two games in 1925. Could he have so many HRs like Ruth, probably not. But could he have hit more runs over his career, that seems a lot more possible.

[BobC]

Obviously, I cannot attest to stories about Ruth by his team-mates. I can attest to comments regarding Mickey Mantle by his team-mates which I've personally heard from (such as
Tommy Henrich, Yogi Berra, Don Larsen, Johnny Sain, Charlie Silvera and my hometown nearby neighbor Phil Rizzuto) all of which talked about how Mantle's everyday performance inspired the team to play the game better. This same type of inspiration has been suggested in books written about Babe Ruth's influence on his team-mates during the years 1920
to the early 1930's.





Come on Bob, for you to use such an anecdotal example during the Dead-Ball era regarding HR's which were subsequently ruled Ground-Rule Doubles is ridiculous. But if you insist,
on bringing up this "Triple-Crown" example of Cobb's, then I have to remind you that Ruth hit 11 HR's in 1918, and 29 in 1919 in the Dead-Ball era.

Actually, you are "grasping at straws" by using such a weak example to make your argument that Cobb was better than Ruth. I find this very disappointing. And, my discussion with
you ENDS here.....PERIOD.


TED Z

T206 Reference (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=237816)
.

Ted,

I never said Cobb was better than Ruth. I'm also not grasping at straws and merely pointing out how you seemingly laughed at Cobb and put down his Triple Crown performance in comparison to Ruth's 1923 season. It is not an apples to apples comparison you were making and points out all the problems in trying to compare players from different times and eras, and Ruth and Cobb clearly are in playing in different eras due to all the aforementioned changes that occured before and after Ruth went to the Yankees.

The fact that you would laugh at something that Cobb accomplished and Ruth couldn't is just appalling to me, especially when I know how much you care for the T206 set, of which Cobb is such an integral and important part. No one is right or wrong in any of their opinions as to who was best because there is no way to prove it one way or another. But of all people on here, I thought with your experience and wisdom you would be of a more open mind and absolutely understand the differences in the rules and how the game was played and changed over time, and how that makes for senseless arguments 100 years later as to who was the best.

And what does Mantle and his teammates have to do with Ruth? If you are implying they both inspired their teammates to be the best possible players and thus win championships with them, okay. But you do realize they both had great teammates to begin with, and Mantle and Ruth alone did not insure victory? In fact, isn't inspiring players to do their best and win what teams hire managers to do? It is well known that Ruth wanted to manage in the majors, especially for the Yankees. And he had some options and chances to maybe manage during his last few years in the majors, but seemed to squander and sabotage them all by his actions. He ended up not managing anywhere, which according to your thinking makes no sense because he was apparently so good in always gettting his fellow players to do their best to win, which is exactly what a Manager is hired to do. If that were truly the case, then why didn't he have multiple teams knocking on his door to manage them? Was all of major league baseball wrong and only you are right?

Or what about all those 1931 managers who were polled and said that they would rank Cobb and Wagner higher than Ruth. And I don't think you can really count McCarthy's picking Ruth as #1 as necessarily legit since he was managing Ruth at the time, and if it ever got back to Ruth he'd picked someone else at #1, who knew how Ruth may have reacted. And that list of people polled even included Walter Johnson, who apparently had Cobb, Wagner, and even Joe Jackson all ranked ahead of Ruth. But what would Walter Johnson know about how good of a baseball player someone may be, right?

Asking who is the greatest of all-time in any sport is a trick question with generally no perfect and/or single answer. The biggest problem is there will never be an agreed upon definition of what "greatest of all-time" actually means and stands for, especially when dealing with team sports. I was merely providing some factual, statistical information to show how Cobb stood in relation to things done by Ruth, and to illustrate how there can be things that people sometimes forget or miss in such comparisons. I had interpreted your comment regarding Cobbs' Triple Crown season as you feeling it was a joke to even think of comparing it to one of Ruth's seasons because of his "bigger" overall numbers. And by dispaging Cobb, you do indeed disparage everyone else in 1909 because he was arguably the best offensive player in the majors that year. I wasn't really looking for a reply from you, but had you come back and said you were not intending to dismiss Cobb's accomplishments and were not making fun of his Triple Crown in light of Ruth's accomplishments and realized the differences in how the game had changed so drastically between those two years, I would have apologized for misinterpreting your meaning. But based on how you did respond, it seems fairly clear what your intent was all along, and that truly saddens me.

[Tabe]

Ruth was a world class pitcher for 1 season. He had a couple above average seasons and his last season that he pitched in 1919, he was an average MLB pitcher.

Saying that Ruth was better than Cobb and Wagner is a valid opinion, but the difference is small. Saying Hornsby was better than Wagner and Cobb is a hot take. Bill James ranks Wagner #2 and Cobb #5, but Hornsby only #22.

Ruth had a WAR as a pitcher one year of 8.8, another of 6.5, and then 2.3 in half a season. That's world class.

I know putting Hornsby over those guys is unusual but I made my case.

[Tabe]

Where in my post did I say one was better than the other? I specifically quoted and responded to TedZ's post about Cobb's batting grip and how he didn't hit many home runs, yet there is recorded proof that at least once in his career he was somewhat prolific in hitting home runs, which begs the question of if he just chose not to swing for the fences all the time like Ruth. For a hitter as good as Cobb, I would argue that him suddenly putting on such a power hitting display was more than just a fluke. Also that fact that during the height of the deadball era he could get the Triple Crown shows he could hold his own against others in the league as far as hitting home runs.

If anything, I was merely pointing out how Cobb and Ruth, though contemporaries, were decidedly different as hitters. And a lot of that may have had to do with choice as opposed to straight-up hitting ability.

And what the heck does Cameron have to do with any of this? He isn't even a pre-war player, which is the era this question is about. You totally did not understand the gist and purpose of my post, and made a bad assumption.

You implied it with your "Cobb did this thing that even Ruth couldn't do". That "thing", of course, was a fluke brought on by exceptionally strong winds. Since you were using a fluke to compare them, I brought up another similar fluke, the era of which is irrelevant.

[mrreality68]

You implied it with your "Cobb did this thing that even Ruth couldn't do". That "thing", of course, was a fluke brought on by exceptionally strong winds. Since you were using a fluke to compare them, I brought up another similar fluke, the era of which is irrelevant.

I enjoy Fluke Fishing.

But not as much as these conversations about History and the Greats of the Game

and that is not a Fluke

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And it was because of all these changes that I had also previously brought up in an earlier post the major league record Cobb shares with many others by having hit 5 HRs over two consecutive MLB games. Cobb was the second person to ever do this, achieving the feat in 1925 when he was already 38 years old. And by the way, all 5 five were over the fence. Ruth never equalled this feat despite all his home run prowess. And it wasn't equalled again till Tony Lazzeri matched the feat in 1936. It didn't happen again till Kiner did it on two separate occassions in 1947. The story/myth is that Cobb didn't really care for Ruth and all his HRs and supposedly told some reporter he could hit HRs if he wanted to. It's a bit like the Ruth "Called Shot" story, but regardless, Cobb does still hold a piece of a HR record that Ruth couldn't best or ever match.



Nate Colbert hit 5 home runs in a double header. Clearly better than Ruth...

[BobC]

You implied it with your "Cobb did this thing that even Ruth couldn't do". That "thing", of course, was a fluke brought on by exceptionally strong winds. Since you were using a fluke to compare them, I brought up another similar fluke, the era of which is irrelevant.

I implied nothing and merely stated a fact that Ruth did not equal a particular HR record that Cobb held. But what exactly is "it" you assume I implied? And please don't say I'm implying Cobb was better than Ruth as I have not said that anywhere, and have already stated I was not implying it either. So unless I'm missing something, you really can't understand and comprehend what I'm saying, or you can, but choose to just ignore it and denigrate what I'm saying (and me) anyway for simply stating known facts about certain records and achievements of Cobb in relation to Ruth?

All I'm doing is pointing out facts. Pro-Ruth people always point out his unparralleled ability to hit HRs. I merely pointed out that when it comes to HRs, Cobb is not entirely bereft of some distinction in that area. Thus the mention of Cobb's Triple Crown season where he led the majors in HRs and of the consecutive game home run record he shares with many others, but not including Ruth. But then I get people like Scott and Ted saying Cobb did it with only 9 homers, and they were all inside-the-park home runs, while in 1923 noting how Ruth would have won the Triple Crown with his 41 HRs and .393 batting average had it not been for Heilmann hitting over .400 that year. Meanwhile, Cobb only hit .377 to win his Triple Crown, and had about 20-30 fewer RBIs than Ruth had in 1923, so to bring it up and compare Cobb's Triple Crown season to Ruth's 1923 season caused TedZ to "chuckle". He thinks it is laughable that Cobb's Triple Crown season could be compared to Ruth's. Gee, would he also "chuckle" if trying to compare records and achievements of people like Jesse Owens, Jim Thorpe, Bobby Jones, and George Mikan to more recent players and athletes who are now faster, stronger, have better equipment, perform under different rules, and so on. I would certainly hope not as that is demeaning and belittling to all such legendary athletes and their achievements and records they set in the times and under the circumstances they set them in. When Cobb won his Triple Crown he beat everyone else in those categories, something Ruth never could do.....period.

As for Cobb's consecutive game HR record being a fluke, there are quite few players that have equalled it over the years, including the likes of Kiner, Musial, Lazzeri, Bonds, McGwire, Arod, Schmidt, and others. Are they all "flukes", or just some of them? And if just some of them are, how exactly do you tell the difference? And please, give me actual facts and empirical evidence, because without that it is just your opinion, nothing else. You state that a possible contributing factor to Cobb's "fluke" were high winds. Well, do you know exactly how high they were, which direction(s) they were blowing in exactly when Cobb hit each homer, where did he hit each homer in the park so we can tell if the winds actually aided any of them, were these winds so high that Cobb never batted in similar conditions ever during the rest of his entire career, if these winds were so helpful to Cobb those two games, how come no one else playing for either team had even close to the same hitting performance he had, and, didn't Ruth ever in his career have a chance to bat in similar high wind conditions, and if so, why didn't he take advantage of it like Cobb did? I would hope you can agree these are all good questions deserving of factual answers before just summarily dismissing Cobb's achievement as a "fluke". And as contributory information, Cobb does have the all-time highest career batting average (ahead of Ruth), so he definitely knew how to get the bat on the ball and put it in play, so actually getting that many hits to even have 5 HRs over two games is no "fluke" in and of itself, right? Your contention is the "fluke" is that 5 of them actually went over the fence. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most modern hitters recognize wind conditions when playing, and if possible, try to take advantage of such and maybe hit balls into such prevailing winds to hopefully get them to carry out of the park more? And if true, and Cobb was lucky enough to get such a favorable set of circumstances over those two days back in 1925, wouldn't this actually be more of a testament to Cobb's hitting ability and brilliance to take advantage of the situation to his advantage when everyone else in those games couldn't, and even more so make it anything but a "fluke"? I have to believe Ruth would likewise have taken advantage of similar conditions and circumstances if/when given the chance, just like HR hitters take advantage of favorable ballpark dimensions and aim for the shortest fences when possible. And don't forget Cobb was 38 when he did this. All this does is add more speculation to the question of whether or not Cobb could have hit more HRs if he wanted, not whether he was better or worse than Ruth.

And for clarity and understanding, what the the heck does - "Since you were using a fluke to compare them, I brought up another similar fluke, the era of which is irrelevant.". I get that you feel Cobb hitting 5 HRs over two consecutive games is a fluke (which I await your answers to my various questions on to see if this really does qualify as a "fluke"), but what is this similar fluke you say you brought up? Are you talking about your reference of there supposedly being high winds during the games Cobb hit 5 HRs? If so, it sounds like you are saying a "fluke" was caused by another "fluke", and if so, one of the dumbest things I ever heard. You are already declaring the 5 HRs is a "fluke", so the possibility of high winds being a contributing factor to that is not another "fluke", it is just a potential contributing factor to what you already think is a "fluke". But if that is the "similar fluke" you are referring to, okay, I'll play along.

There are going to be winds at virtually every game played back in those days, some high, some low, some virtually non-existent. You still haven't put on your meteorologist hat yet to show us how fast and which way the winds were blowing back then when Cobb hit his 5 HRs. For all we know, the winds could have been blowing in. In any event, how is having wind during a ball game a "fluke", unless they were gale force type winds carrying everyone's balls out of the park (which wasn't the case as only Cobb had the phenomenal two days at bat)? And if the winds were that bad, that would likely be indicative of a storm, and one would have normally expected the game(s) to have been cancelled or postponed then. So again, how are these winds a fluke?

By the way you are stretching the definition of the word "fluke", I could argue that all 714 of Ruth's HRs are "flukes". The definition of "fluke" is an unlikely chance occurrence, or a surprising piece of luck. I could argue that there were contributing circumstances in all his HRs, such as the wind was blowing out, or there was no wind blowing in, or the pitcher's grip slipped, the pitcher missed his spot, Ruth luckily guessed exactly where the pitcher was going to put it, Ruth slipped and luckily got more bat on the ball than he would have otherwise, the catcher messed up the signs, the ball bounced just right to make it over the fence, he was still hung over from the night before and didn't overswing on a change-up, and on and on. The hitting of a home run is not a simple, single act. It involves a myriad of related and interconnected factors and circumstances that all have to happen in a specific sequence with almost perfect timing for us to see a ball go over the fence. And neither Ruth nor Cobb controlled all those factors, they were just better/luckier than almost everyone else around them in getting hits and home runs. In fact, when compared to everyone else, you could probably say Ruth and Cobb were themselves flukes.

And if the "similar fluke" you were referring to wasn't the high winds, then what was it?

[Tabe]

I implied nothing and merely stated a fact that Ruth did not equal a particular HR record that Cobb held. But what exactly is "it" you assume I implied?
You asked "Where in my post did I say one was better than the other? " My reply was "You implied it with your "Cobb did this thing that even Ruth couldn't do". " I'm not sure how much more clear I can than that.


And please don't say I'm implying Cobb was better than Ruth as I have not said that anywhere, and have already stated I was not implying it either.
And yet I'm not the only to interpret your words that way. Perhaps you're the one being unclear or saying things you don't intend as opposed other being unable to comprehend?


As for Cobb's consecutive game HR record being a fluke, there are quite few players that have equalled it over the years, including the likes of Kiner, Musial, Lazzeri, Bonds, McGwire, Arod, Schmidt, and others. Are they all "flukes", or just some of them?
Yes, they are all flukes.

LOTS of people hit 5 home runs over the course of two games during their careers. The fluke is doing that over back-to-back games.


You state that a possible contributing factor to Cobb's "fluke" were high winds. Well, do you know exactly how high they were, which direction(s)

Ask Tom Stanton, author of a book on Cobb & Ruth's friendship.

I would hope you can agree these are all good questions deserving of factual answers before just summarily dismissing Cobb's achievement as a "fluke".
The wind has no part in it being a fluke as I stated above.

And for clarity and understanding, what the the heck does - "Since you were using a fluke to compare them, I brought up another similar fluke, the era of which is irrelevant.".

You complained about my use of Mike Cameron because he played in a different era than Ruth or Cobb. I was pointing out that his era didn't matter because his feat was a fluke just like Cobb's.


I get that you feel Cobb hitting 5 HRs over two consecutive games is a fluke (which I await your answers to my various questions on to see if this really does qualify as a "fluke"), but what is this similar fluke you say you brought up?

I specifically named the fluke but I'll name it again for you:

Mike Cameron hitting 4 home runs in a single game with a 5th fly ball in the same game being caught right up against the fence.


There are going to be winds at virtually every game played back in those days, some high, some low, some virtually non-existent. You still haven't put on your meteorologist hat yet to show us how fast and which way the winds were blowing back then when Cobb hit his 5 HRs.

Asking a question and then, in the exact same post, complaining you haven't gotten an answer to your question makes no sense.


And if the "similar fluke" you were referring to wasn't the high winds, then what was it?
See answer above and then ponder your ironic criticism of my comprehension skills since I specifically gave the fluke in my earlier post AND you commented on it.

[BobC]

Nate Colbert hit 5 home runs in a double header. Clearly better than Ruth...

Scott,

I don't know if you are joking or being sarcastic. I never said Ruth or Cobb was better than the other. Simply stating factual information and getting crap for it from mostly pro-Ruth people who obviously don't like any information that doesn't completely agree with their thinking. For all the crap I've gotten, I'm still waiting for an honest and logical response from at least one of the pro-Ruth people regarding the all-time best player rankings of the various managers polled in 1931. Cobb was the clear victor, with Wagner just edging out Ruth. The only response that posting got was something about it being biased and showing favoritism, like how all the not so deserving players were being put into the HOF. And yes, you were the poster that said all that.

If my memory serves me correctly, Frisch was considered the original ringleader in getting friends inducted into the HOF, and understand about LaRussa, but neither of them were included in that poll. So to make the blanket statement like you did seems a little out there, don't you think? The only potential bias I could see in that group was of McCarthy voting for Ruth as #1, and being his then current manager. And I'm still waiting to see how someone could disparage Walter Johnson's opinion of Cobb, Ruth, and Jackson, all being better players than Ruth.

Maybe they were thinking more in terms of an overall best all-around player, like what is referred to as a five-tool player today. Which could make some sense. So if the five-tools are as follows, here's how they may go:



SPEED

Cobb had 897 stolen bases over his career, which I believe still has him at #4 all-time today, to only 123 for Ruth. Cobb led the Majors in stolen bases 6 times, but also led the majors in getting caught stealing 3 times, which was a function of how often he'd try to steal. This is an easy one. - COBB



ARM STRENGTH

Hard to determine. With Ruth being a pitcher you would expect him to be able to throw well with great arm strength. That being said, I think the attribute really has more to do with making throws in the field, at which Cobb excelled. Over his career Cobb had 392 assists, putting him at #2 all-time in that category I believe. And in viewing online sites looking for the best OF arms in baseball, Cobb and Ruth both can be ranked in the Top 20 lists of all-time. In comparison, Ruth only had 204 career assists, but that is also a function of him having played a few years as a pitcher and thus having fewer opportunities to make such plays. On the the surface, based on the Assist stat alone, many might say Cobb. But because of the disparity of chances between the two, and Ruth's obvious strength as a pitcher, I think this is more of a push. - TIE



FIELDING ABILITY

Another tough one, with Ruth a very slight edge over Cobb in fielding percentage career-wise of .968 to .961. However, Cobb did play the bulk of his career in CF, normally a more defensively demanding position, whereas Ruth was mostly in RF or LF, along with being a pitcher his first few years with Boston. On a gross basis, Cobb had 271 OF errors (278 overall), which puts him about 14th on the all-time list for errors made, and not necessaarily good. Ruth meanwhile made 155 OF errors (179 overall) during his career. However, with Cobb's speed and aggression playing CF, it can expected Cobb tried to make plays on a lot more hit balls than Ruth would have, and thus a few more errors. This is borne out by the fact that Cobb had 7,195 fielding chances to only 5,535 for Ruth during their careers. And despite the big difference in total gross number of errors, their career fielding percentages were stilll only .007 apart. I can easily see Cobb making up that slight difference on the increased difficulty factor he likely had on many more plays than Ruth due to his aggressive nature, speed, and style of play. Too close otherwise, i'd call this a push also. - TIE



HITTING FOR AVERAGE

Cobb all-time highest ever career batting average of .366 and Ruth a little down the list at .342, which isn't shabby. Meanwhile, Cobb led the Majors in BA 12 times overall (and 9 times in a row at one point), and batted over .400 three times, all still major league records. Ruth only led the Majors in BA once. Cobb also finished with 4,189 hits in his career (still #2 all-time behind Rose) to 2,873 hits for Ruth. However, Ruth also had 2,062 walks in his career, leading the majors in that category in 11 different seasons. Cobb meanwhile had 1,249 walks in his career, but never once led the majors in that category. And to cover the negative side of things, Ruth had 1,330 trikeouts in his career, leading the majors in that category 5 times, while Cobb struck out only 680 times in his career, never leading the majors once. The next level is to look at their OBPs as opposed to just straight batting averages. In this case Ruth had a career OBP of .474, leading the majors in that category 10 times. Cobb's OBP was actually lower at only .433 for his career, but still having led the majors 7 times in that category. Despite Ruth having a higher OBP, the tool is called HITTING FOR AVERAGE, so I'd have to follow that and end up going with the highest batting average. - COBB



HiTTING FOR POWER

Here's where Ruth will shine. HRs all-time, 714, leading the majors in that category 12 times overall (6 in a row at one point), and came in/tied for 2nd 3 more times. That puts him at #3 on the all-time career HR total list, but still at #1 for the number of seasons leading the majors. Cobb meanwhile had only 117 HRs in his career, but still did manage to lead the Majors in that category the one year he won the Triple Crown, and surprisingly came in/tied for 2nd in another 4 seasons. In SLG and OPS Ruth shines again, with career totals of .690 and 1.164 respectively, which are both #1 all-time for MLB. Cobb has career SLG and OPS numbers of .512 and .944 respectively, which has him down around 85th and 28th on those respective all time lists after including Negro League players. Not surprisingly, Ruth also led the Majors in both SLG and OPS over 13 different seasons, which is also #1 all-time in MLB for both categories.. But not to be completely outdone, Cobb surpringly led the Majors in SLG 8 times during his career, and led in OPS 10 times, including 1925 when he broke Ruth's string of OPS titles. Cobb actually had more career Total Bases than Ruth, with 5,845 versus 5,793, but took way more ABs to do it, 11,440 versus 8,399.

Though he still wouldn't get close to Ruth, I would point out during his career Cobb had 897 steals and was caught stealing only 212 times, for a net positive steals number of 685. If you consider this the same as if 685 times he had hit a double or triple, instead of just a single or double, that would considerably improve his SLG and OPS numbers in relation to Ruth's. Even though Ruth stole 123 bases during his career, he was also caught 117 times, resulting in a net positive steals number of only 6, versus Cobb's 685 total. You might also consider adding the net positive steals numbers to their career Total Bases amounts as well for a better comparison.

And though not generally POWER type stats, I'll throw RBIs and Runs Scored in this area as well. Over his career Ruth had 2,174 Runs Scored and 2,214 RBIs, putting him tied for #4 all-time on the Runs Scored list, and #2 on the all-time RBI list (he does have Pujols closing in on his RBI spot though). He then led the Majors in Runs Scored and RBIs for 8 and 5 years, respectively. Meanwhile, Cobb in his career had 2,245 Runs Scored and 1,944 RBIs, putting him at #2 and #9 on those all-time MLB lists, respectively. And Cobb then led the Majors in Runs Scored and RBIs for 5 and 4 years, respectively.

Ruth did a lot more damage in a lot fewer fewer ABs, though Cobb more than holds his own for the period and type of ball being played during the bulk of his career when it comes to his POWER numbers. Fairly clear who still gets this category though. - RUTH


Not necessarily an exact way to do this, but throw in that Cobb also managed teams whereas Ruth ended up never doing so, and you may begin to see how this may not be so cut and dried as many may think as to who was actually better. Throw in the further complicating fact that they both split their careers playing in both the dead and live ball eras, witn Cobb's prime in the deadball era and Ruth's prime in the live ball era, after other rule changes and changes to field dimensions among oher things.

The pro-Ruth people will obviously tout his slugging and home run hitting abilities and say that and his WAR trumps everythingg else. Others may look at some of these facts and statistics I and others have listed and surmise he isn't even a 5-tool player, or that he wasn't thought of as a good enough leader and ballplayer for anyone to really want to pick him as a manager, unless it was more of a publicity stunt to increase the gate for some owner. He does have the great outlier of starting out as a fabulous pitcher before becoming a slugging phenom, but never really did them both full-time for very long like Ohtani is trying to do, and look at all the health issues he's been having. Truth is, they're both great for the specific times and circumstances during and under which they played. And instead of just talking and arguing about a single greatest pre-war player, maybe we have to finally further break down the eras for a pre-war deadball era from 1900-1920, and a pre-war live ball era from 1921-1941. Nineteenth century would/could be considered as their own deadball era then I guess. Maybe then you'll stop all this nonsense and get back to all the more important things on this forum......complaining about TPGs, AHs, card doctors, Ebay, PWCC, Probstein, rising prices, shill bidding, the Registry, AI grading, all the crappy dealers/sellers you don't like, all the crappy buyers you don't like, and anything else I've missed. :D

Somebody post a card please, I don't have a scanner.........

[Mark17]

The question was "greatest." Who changed the game more than Ruth? Which franchise built the (at the time) biggest, grandest new ballpark based largely on the attendance driven by one single player?

Ask your average person on the street if they know the name "Ty Cobb" or "Babe Ruth." Just about everyone has heard of Ruth, but lots of non-sports fans maybe haven't heard of Cobb.

He swung big, he hit big, he missed big, he lived big. Babe Ruth is hugely bigger than life.

[BobC]

You asked "Where in my post did I say one was better than the other? " My reply was "You implied it with your "Cobb did this thing that even Ruth couldn't do". " I'm not sure how much more clear I can than that.


And yet I'm not the only to interpret your words that way. Perhaps you're the one being unclear or saying things you don't intend as opposed other being unable to comprehend?



Yes, they are all flukes.

LOTS of people hit 5 home runs over the course of two games during their careers. The fluke is doing that over back-to-back games.


Ask Tom Stanton, author of a book on Cobb & Ruth's friendship.


The wind has no part in it being a fluke as I stated above.


You complained about my use of Mike Cameron because he played in a different era than Ruth or Cobb. I was pointing out that his era didn't matter because his feat was a fluke just like Cobb's.


I specifically named the fluke but I'll name it again for you:

Mike Cameron hitting 4 home runs in a single game with a 5th fly ball in the same game being caught right up against the fence.


Asking a question and then, in the exact same post, complaining you haven't gotten an answer to your question makes no sense.


See answer above and then ponder your ironic criticism of my comprehension skills since I specifically gave the fluke in my earlier post AND you commented on it.

I've stated multiple times now that I never said or implied that Cobb was better than Ruth, and explained the references to Cobb's HR record and Triple Crown season were in response to TedZ's comments about Cobb's HR hitting abilities, not who was better. Did I also state that Ruth didn't equal Cobbs home run record or win a Triple Crown, yes, because it was TedZ who originally referenced Cobb against Ruth as a HR hitter, not me. So I merely noted those items that Ruth hadn't done as added evidence for Cobb possibly being better at hittinbg HRs than was being implied. But you keep on just saying that it was me implying something else, and assume and believe whatever you want. Apparently no matter how many times I tell you the sky is blue, you'll keep saying it is green because that's what you want to believe.

And you're right, there oddly are more than one of you thinking that my response to TedZ was somehow implying what I've said multiple times is not the case. Just shows how people often fail to read or comprehend things, and/or jump to conclusions and then stubbornly refuse to ever admit they could be wrong. In this instance it is pro-Ruth people only that seem to be jumping to conclusions. Hmmm, wonder what that could mean?


Okay, so you feel anyone hitting 5 homers in consecutive games is a fluke. So does that mean you also agree with the thinking that everyone hitting even 1 home run then is also a fluke? Because if so, then all 714 of Ruth's HRs are flukes and he's not good, just lucky, and he's not necessarily the best pre-war player then. And if hitting just 1 home run isn't a fluke, but hitting 5 in consecutive games is, where's the line between a fluke or non-fluke? Is it 2 homers, 3 homers, what? And please explain your answer.

And why would I ask Tom Stanton anything? Have no idea who he is or how to contact him, nor do i want to. YOU brought up high winds in regards to Cobb's consecutive games home run record, so I asked YOU very specific questions in that regard to hopefully be able to get answers and information that everyone could then use to determine for themselves whether or not Cobb hit the home runs on his own or if they were a fluke and only happened because of these so-called high winds. I tried to be very specific and clear with the questions so we wouldn't get a lame-ass or non-responsive answer back, and look what we got!!!


So if the wind is no part of the "fluke", why did you ever bring it up? Or is this how you're going to get around not answering my questions in regards to the high winds now in case your "Ask Tom Stanton.", ploy doesn't work? And then you wonder how someone cannot comprehend what you're trying to say when you throw in this high wind reference for no apparent reason. You specifically wrote "The wind has no part in it being a fluke as I stated above.", and then elsewhere wrote, "That "thing", of course, was a fluke brought on by exceptionally strong winds.". Well, the "thing" is a reference to Cobb having matched a record by hitting 5 HRs over 2 consecutive games, which is the same event being referred to as "it" in your other statement I quoted. Those two statements of yours I quoted above are clearly contradicting one another, so forgive me if I seem confused and can't understand what you're talking about. Or are you going to try and say that both quotes aren't referring to Cobb's consecutive game HR record now?

Okay, I now get what you meant by the Mike Cameron reference in regards to the different eras, thank you for finally answering at least one of my questions. But that wasn't what was causing my initial confusion. I didn't realize the "fluke" you were referring to was that Mike Cameron statement because of the other references you were making to the fluke being brought on by exceptionally high winds. As stated and pointed out above, you were making contradicting statements which don't make sense and created the confusion.

Yes, I now understand what this "fluke" is you were referring to. And again point to the confusion being caused not by miscomprehension, but by contradictory and misleading statements by you, as pointed out above.

Was not asking a question and then complaining in the same post about not yet getting an answer. Was using that as a sort of strategic reinforcement reminder to emphasize to you that I was asking specific questions in regards to the high winds you had originally referred to. And look how well that worked out. You made a point to question me about that statement, but still failed to answer any of those questions I had asked about the high winds, and instead blew me off by telling me to call someone I don't know or have any contact info for. Let me try this strategic reinforcement reminder technique again. Hey, I asked you those questions about the high winds, not some guy named Tom Stanton. You going to bother answerng or just blow it off because now you're saying it doesn't matter?

And as for my ironic criticism and alleged inability to comprehend, go back up to where I previously discussed the contradictory and confusing statements you were making in regards to the "fluke", the high winds, and so on.

Aside from having addressed each of your responses, I guess we'll see if there is anything coming back finally answering all my current and earlier questions that remain unaddressed. And if you're just going to say nothing matters because everything is a fluke and not address any of my questions with facts or even the semblance of well thought out and logical arguments, don't even bother responding. I've seen and had enough of the "because I'm right and you're wrong" stuff to last for a while.

[rats60]

Ruth had a WAR as a pitcher one year of 8.8, another of 6.5, and then 2.3 in half a season. That's world class.

I know putting Hornsby over those guys is unusual but I made my case.

The other site disagrees. 2.5, 4.5, 3.3, 1.5 were his WAR for 1915-1918. That is not world class outside of 1916.

[Eric72]

...Somebody post a card please...



Here's a card of - unquestionably - the greatest pre-war player to appear as my avatar. :D

[obcbobd]

N
McGraw: Wagner, Cobb, Keeler, Simmons, Terry


There was quite a bit wrong in your post, I've not time to go over everything. But if a contemporary like McGraw really though Keeler, Simmons and Terry, plus God knows how many other players, were better than Ruth - I am flabbergasted. More likely McGraw was ticked off that Ruth dramatically changed the game, or he was ticked off by some other thing Ruth had done. It was not hard to tick off McGraw.

[Tabe]

Okay, so you feel anyone hitting 5 homers in consecutive games is a fluke. So does that mean you also agree with the thinking that everyone hitting even 1 home run then is also a fluke?
Nope.


Because if so, then all 714 of Ruth's HRs are flukes and he's not good, just lucky, and he's not necessarily the best pre-war player then. And if hitting just 1 home run isn't a fluke, but hitting 5 in consecutive games is, where's the line between a fluke or non-fluke? Is it 2 homers, 3 homers, what? And please explain your answer.

If somebody does something 714 times - in the case of Ruth, it's actually more than that, as he had some wiped out by rain, etc - it's not a fluke. What's the line? There's no objective standard, unfortunately. Heck, even doing something 714 times could be a fluke if it's out of 50,000,000,000 tries.

And why would I ask Tom Stanton anything? Have no idea who he is or how to contact him, nor do i want to. YOU brought up high winds in regards to Cobb's consecutive games home run record, so I asked YOU very specific questions in that regard to hopefully be able to get answers and information that everyone could then use to determine for themselves whether or not Cobb hit the home runs on his own or if they were a fluke and only happened because of these so-called high winds. I tried to be very specific and clear with the questions so we wouldn't get a lame-ass or non-responsive answer back, and look what we got!!!



So if the wind is no part of the "fluke", why did you ever bring it up? Or is this how you're going to get around not answering my questions in regards to the high winds now in case your "Ask Tom Stanton.", ploy doesn't work? And then you wonder how someone cannot comprehend what you're trying to say when you throw in this high wind reference for no apparent reason. You specifically wrote "The wind has no part in it being a fluke as I stated above.", and then elsewhere wrote, "That "thing", of course, was a fluke brought on by exceptionally strong winds."

[QUOTE=BobC;2149466]
Well, the "thing" is a reference to Cobb having matched a record by hitting 5 HRs over 2 consecutive games, which is the same event being referred to as "it" in your other statement I quoted. Those two statements of yours I quoted above are clearly contradicting one another, so forgive me if I seem confused and can't understand what you're talking about. Or are you going to try and say that both quotes aren't referring to Cobb's consecutive game HR record now?

Tom Stanton is a highly-regarded baseball author. I'm surprised you're not familiar with him.

Cobb hit 5 homers in 2 consecutive games. Doing that feat is ALWAYS a fluke. In Cobb's case, it happened because there were high winds that day. Yes, both things can be true - that it's always a fluke and that it only happened in Cobb's case because of the wind.

No, I don't have the meteorological reports from St. Louis 1925 in front of me. I'm relying on the research of Tom Stanton.


Okay, I now get what you meant by the Mike Cameron reference in regards to the different eras, thank you for finally answering at least one of my questions. But that wasn't what was causing my initial confusion. I didn't realize the "fluke" you were referring to was that Mike Cameron statement because of the other references you were making to the fluke being brought on by exceptionally high winds. As stated and pointed out above, you were making contradicting statements which don't make sense and created the confusion.

It's weird that you're now claiming I made contradictory statements yet understood perfectly what I was talking about the first time I mentioned Cameron. You were put off by the era in which he accomplished his fluke feat.

Now who's making contradictory statements? You understood perfectly the first time but now you're claiming confusion because I made contradictory statements (even though I didn't)?


Was not asking a question and then complaining in the same post about not yet getting an answer.

Actually, that's exactly what you did - which is why I quoted you when I said that.


And as for my ironic criticism and alleged inability to comprehend, go back up to where I previously discussed the contradictory and confusing statements you were making in regards to the "fluke", the high winds, and so on.

Yep, the irony continues.

[Shoeless Moe]

1930 vs the World Champion Philadelphia Athletics May 21, 22, & 24 (23 was a travel day). 3 Double-headers in a row!

May 21 DH at Phil.:
Game 1 - Ruth goes 3 for 4 - 6 RBI - 3 Home Runs - 1 off Lefty Grove. Ruth bats righty in his last at bat. Not sure why, maybe he was having a little fun.
https://thisdayinbaseball.com/babe-ruth-hits-3-homeruns-in-yankee-loss-to-as/
Game 2 - Ruth goes 1 for 4 - only game w/o a HR.

May 22 DH at Phil.:
Game 1 - Ruth goes 3 for 5 - 3 RBI - 2 Home Runs
Game 2 - Ruth goes 1 for 4 with 3 Walks - 1 Home Run (Gehrig hits 3 Home Runs FYI)

May 24 DH Home vs Phil.:
Game 1 - Ruth goes 2 for 3 with 3 walks - 1 Home Run
game 2 - Ruth goes 2 for 3 with a walk - 1 Home Run

This was the first of 2 times he hit 3 home runs in a regular season game (he was 35), seems odd it took that long, granted he did it twice in 2 World Series '26 & '28. As you know the 2nd time he did it was his last week in baseball for the Braves at Pittsburgh. (but counting WS games he did it 4 times).


But 8 home runs in 3 days! Not counting the off day. 6 Home Runs in 2 days at Philadelphia DAMN!

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1930-schedule-scores.shtml

[steve B]

What were Josh Gibson's career stats vs. Satchel Paige? Paige was a major league talent. The best I could find he hit .000 against him. People like to throw out that prewar MLB stars weren't that great because they didn't play against Negro League stars. If those stars couldn't hit Paige, how would they have done against Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, ect?

I disagree with your assertions about the Negro Leagues. Only 8% of MLB today is African Americans. In 1960 when every team was integrated it was only 9%. Even a decade later it was less than 15%. It peaked at 18.7% in 1981. If the Negro Leagues were at the same level as MLB, that number would have approached 50%. Especially after expansion in 1961-62 and 1969. I believe the level of play was far below that of MLB and even AAA. The top level of players were of MLB quality but the vast majority were not.

Why would you expect a group that makes up 12% of the population to be 50% of the league?

[John1941]

Why would you expect a group that makes up 12% of the population to be 50% of the league?

Also, not all Negro League players were actually American. Jose Mendez, Cristobal Torriente, Martin Dihigo and others were Cuban.

[steve B]

This!

And remember that the rules changed in 1921 so that balls were changed when they got dirty or worn or damaged. That combined with a "juiced" ball and smaller parks helps to explain some of Ruth's success.

Have a look at this comparison of Cobb and Ruth's stats. https://mlbcomparisons.com/babe-ruth-vs-ty-cobb-comparison/

Except for the categories influenced by being a home run hitter, Cobb wins on almost all counts. That says to me that if you take away the benefits that Ruth had (fresh balls, juiced balls, parks etc) then Cobb is clearly the better player. Put it another way, if Cobb played ball from 1918-1938, his stats would be even better!

Ruth most definitely transformed baseball but that doesn't make him the best.

As an analogy, I'm a huge Beatles fan. They changed music when they came along. Like Ruth, they were the right people at the right time. But would I say that they were bigger musical geniuses than Mozart? Nope.

Ruth had two big seasons before that rule change, 1919 presumably non juiced ball, he hit 29hr and batted .322. nd 1920, presumably juiced ball, as total HRs was a lot higher than 1919 - 369 to 240 Ruth hit 54 HR and batted 376 still with the ball being used until it wore out. (and played in 12 more games) 54HR was more than any other AL team, and more than double the second place HR hitter.

looking at the top 10 HR hitters, some had similar increases, some didn't.
Even for 1921 with the clean ball and a lot more HR hit overall not everyone in the top 10 saw a major increase.

So Ruth was outpacing everyone for power even before the clean ball. and probably before the dead ball was gone completely.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Why would you expect a group that makes up 12% of the population to be 50% of the league?

For the same reason they make up over half of the NBA and the NFL, Olympic Track and Field, etc?

[mrreality68]

Great Arguments

Always amazes me (and enjoying it) that so many stats and can be presented to able to make a good argument either way about many players and their greatness

Also great to learn some of the lesser know stats and stories about these Great Players

[Snowman]

I think the more interesting conversation to me is Babe Ruth vs Willie Mays. I think the distinction between pre and post dead ball era is more important than pre and post war is, as far as being able to compare players against each other is concerned.