T206 Original Photos - Snodgrass & Dots Miller

[Runscott]

Here's a better scan of the Miller photo I posted a while back. Not sure I've ever seen this Snodgrass before.

[nolemmings]

Very nice. Are those Francis Burke's photos?

[Runscott]

Very nice. Are those Francis Burke's photos?

Oddly, the book that I got them from does not credit any photographers.

Frances Burke would be as good of a guess as any.

[frankbmd]

Just wonderin'

if Snodgrass caught the ball in his bare hand or with that oven mitt.:eek:

[Runscott]

Frank, a lot of catchers posed that same way back then. If a ball had been thrown, it seems it would have hit them in the chest.

In the 1880's catchers gloves were sold in pairs - the right-hand glove was fingerless for throwing, and the other glove came with or without finger-tips. The 1885 Spalding ad descriptions are sort of difficult to decipher, describing the gloves as 'left-handed', but 'sold in pairs'. The 1889 Reach Guide is a bit more clear: "Full left hand, made of the best and heaviest mouse-colored buckskin. The full left hand glove with or without sole leather finger tips. Extra thick padding and lined with best Chamois skin. The right hand glove is made without fingers, extra padded."

Addendum regarding the first non-catcher Reach baseball gloves: The 1889 Reach Guide also describes their new fielders gloves ("this season we introduce for the first time"), also sold in pairs. They state "it is soft and pliable that a player can pick up a ball as well with as without it....All professionals are wearing the Fielder's glove."

Unfortunately, my versions of these guides are too old and brittle to make photocopies of the drawings. I'll try to take photos later.

[MVSNYC]

Awesome pics...Miller's bat looks like a tree trunk!

[Runscott]

Two more

[wonkaticket]

Found these kicking around the net...sorry if you have them already Scott.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/Wilson.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/Chesboro.jpg

I know not T206 what was I thinking...

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/Magee.jpg

I have some others just need to add the cards next to them.

Cheers,

John

[vwtdi]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/vwtdi55/56%20card%20baseball%20collection/t3_speaker853.jpg

[Runscott]

These are all out and about already (Magee M101,Bresnahan T222), but the McGraw might be a bit more clear than existing ones we've seen:

[Runscott]

Thanks for posting - I love these kind of threads, as they combine my two collecting passions.

The book that I got these from also has original photos that were used in several 1911-ish caramel sets.

I'll do some research and then start a separate thread on those.

[Runscott]

Found these kicking around the net...sorry if you have them already Scott.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/Wilson.jpg


Cheers,

John

John, that Wilson is a good example of 'almost, but not quite'. There have been several times where someone has claimed that the T206 'artists' took an 'almost' photo and modified it somewhat to come up with the final T206 image. In most cases we've eventually found the actual photo, which ended up being an exact match. The artists for the T206 set were certainly skilled craftsmen, but they weren't free-handing very much of their work.

Instead, we find that many players had a standard pose that we see examples of repeated over the years. For instance, you can find a zillion examples of Ed Reulbach's famous 'follow-through' pose - all very similar, and spread out over his entire career. Many of them could mistaken as the original photo used for his T206 art - especially some from his Federal League days, which would, of course, be impossible.

[wonkaticket]

I too assumed they "tweaked" them a bit good info Scott. I was on the fence on the Wilson but thought I would pass along.

Cheers,

John

[deadballfreaK]

Just wonderin'

if Snodgrass caught the ball in his bare hand or with that oven mitt.:eek:

The catcher in the Meyers photo is using the same technique. Makes me wonder if the pitchers in that era were really that fast compared to nowadays.

[Runscott]

Simply because some of the non-portraits were such close matches to the photos used, I always felt that 'tweaking' was the exception rather than the rule. Once Steve B explained the detail of how the photo images were transferred to the beginnings of the T206 artwork, that theory made even more sense.

At some point I'll display a card (maybe the Reulbach 'no glove') along with an assortment of the 'close but no cigar' photographs from his career.

Not to further my debate with John D, but because he couldn't locate the original photo for Dots Miller, he (or someone else in the discussion?) said they thought that maybe the T206 art for some 'in action' shots was created by taking a photograph of a different player and tweaking it to look like the intended player. I still don't buy into that theory, and finally locating the Miller photo rebukes it, at least somewhat.

[Runscott]

Here's the card image superimposed over the photo. You can see that it's a perfect match, other than the bat's a bit fatter.

[nolemmings]

Nicely done Scott. Are you just looking for T206 matches or other pre-WW1 card sets also?

[Runscott]

I actively look for the T206 photos, but I save photos from other sets if I come across them.

[z28jd]

Not to further my debate with John D, but because he couldn't locate the original photo for Dots Miller, he (or someone else in the discussion?) said they thought that maybe the T206 art for some 'in action' shots was created by taking a photograph of a different player and tweaking it to look like the intended player. I still don't buy into that theory, and finally locating the Miller photo rebukes it, at least somewhat.


I only suggested that as an idea of why we couldn't find one for Miller and it was pretty specific to him because he didn't make his debut until April 1909. Not knowing when the artwork was done for the 350 series cards, it was just a possible theory on why we couldn't find the original image. Wasn't really a discussion at the time, just throwing a guess out there.

You might not be talking about me though, because I never suggested a tweak of another players photo, I said it could be a freehand image of him. It doesn't really show his face, just looks like a generic side profile so it wasn't far-fetched before you found the original pic

[Shoele$$]

Here's a better scan of the Miller photo I posted a while back. Not sure I've ever seen this Snodgrass before.

Very cool photos Scott, I love the Snodgrass, never seen it before either. Great timing of this thread as I just picked up an Old Mill Snodgrass on Ebay tonight ;)