This is what happens when EMR team reports get ignored

[RichardSimon]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lou-Gehrig-1939-Signed-Baseball-Magazine-/161008404720?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123#ht_305wt _913

[David Atkatz]

And this is what happens when they don't get ignored.

This lot,

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=24652

in the current SCD auction, used to belong to me (I am NOT the consignor.) About a year ago, I listed it on eBay. It had a full PSA CoA, which could be verified online. Yet it was removed. An eBay watcher contacted me, though, and we struck a deal--with full right of return if his authenticator of choice--JSA or PSA--rejected it. Needless to say, it was not returned.

I had also listed it in the B/S/T here, so I marked it "sold." I was immediately attacked by two Net54 members for perpetrating a fraud--selling a ball that had been removed by eBay! How dare I?!

I wondered at the time how they knew so quickly the listing had been pulled. I knew nothing, at that time of eBay's "EMR team." What a surprise to learn later that those two are members. What a coincidence!

[Forever Young]

And this is what happens when they don't get ignored.

This lot,

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=24652

in the current SCD auction, used to belong to me (I am NOT the consignor.) About a year ago, I listed it on eBay. It had a full PSA CoA, which could be verified online. Yet it was removed. An eBay watcher contacted me, though, and we struck a deal--with full right of return if his authenticator of choice--JSA or PSA--rejected it. Needless to say, it was not returned.

I had also listed it in the B/S/T here, so I marked it "sold." I was immediately attacked by two Net54 members for perpetrating a fraud--selling a ball that had been removed by eBay! How dare I?!

I wondered at the time how they knew so quickly the listing had been pulled. I knew nothing, at that time of eBay's "EMR team." What a surprise to learn later that those two are members. What a coincidence!

WOW....not good.

[gnaz01]

I remember that whole thread!

[David Atkatz]

They may have done me a favor, though.

No eBay fees. ;)

[RichardSimon]

Greg - I remember the thread too.
And FYI - Only a very well known hobby person has the authority to pull PSA authenticated items from ebay. It is not someone who is on Net54 but it is someone that is highly respected by all in the hobby.

[David Atkatz]

And who on the board reports to this "very well known hobby person"?

[David Atkatz]

Still waiting, Richard.

[gnaz01]

Greg - I remember the thread too.
And FYI - Only a very well known hobby person has the authority to pull PSA authenticated items from ebay. It is not someone who is on Net54 but it is someone that is highly respected by all in the hobby.

Didn't know that Richard, thanks for the info. I have a guess who it is :D

[HOF Auto Rookies]

And this is what happens when they don't get ignored.

This lot,

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=24652

in the current SCD auction, used to belong to me (I am NOT the consignor.) About a year ago, I listed it on eBay. It had a full PSA CoA, which could be verified online. Yet it was removed. An eBay watcher contacted me, though, and we struck a deal--with full right of return if his authenticator of choice--JSA or PSA--rejected it. Needless to say, it was not returned.

I had also listed it in the B/S/T here, so I marked it "sold." I was immediately attacked by two Net54 members for perpetrating a fraud--selling a ball that had been removed by eBay! How dare I?!

I wondered at the time how they knew so quickly the listing had been pulled. I knew nothing, at that time of eBay's "EMR team." What a surprise to learn later that those two are members. What a coincidence!

Ah yes, I remember that thread! That was ridiculously uncalled for.

[RichardSimon]

Ah yes, I remember that thread! That was ridiculously uncalled for.

Not sure what you are referring to Rookie (ridiculously uncalled for) but the ball was pulled by ebay and nobody on Net54 had anything to do with it. As I said the person who had it pulled is not a Net54 member. There are a number of Net54 members who are part of the EMR team but those people do not have the influence to pull a PSA or JSA item. Having a contractual agreement with ebay has its advantages.

[David Atkatz]

BS, Richard. You can't have it both ways. You're continually taking credit for being a member of the "EMR team," which reports to eBay "suspicious items," in order to have them removed. You're constantly pissing and moaning about "nobody at eBay listening to you anymore." In fact, that's why you started this thread.

Never thought it would turn out this way, did you?

[RichardSimon]

Don't know what he says but I obviously have a stalker on here now :D:D.

[David Atkatz]

"Don't know what he says." LOL!

[David Atkatz]

Having a contractual agreement with ebay has its advantages.It sure does!

[shelly]

Didn't know that Richard, thanks for the info. I have a guess who it is :D

Not one person on this site can take down a PSA or JSA cert. In fact it is almost impossible to take down Global. There is only one person that Ebay feels is better qualified than those other Tpa's. That is the only person that has that power.

[gnaz01]

Not one person on this site can take down a PSA or JSA cert. In fact it is almost impossible to take down Global. There is only one person that Ebay feels is better qualified than those other Tpa's. That is the only person that has that power.

Shelly,

The person I'm thinking of isn't a board member.

Greg

[shelly]

That is correct.:)

[Big Dave]

Global gets taken down all the time, regardless of the authenticity of the item.

[David Atkatz]

Nice obfuscation, guys. But it won't work. No one is accusing anyone here of "taking the item down."

The person(s) here reported the item--as member(s) of the EMR team--in order to have the item removed.

What did Richard title this thread?

"This is what happens when EMR team reports are ignored."

(Emphasis added.)

Ignored by whom?

That "very well known hobby person."

[shelly]

Should have left out Global.

[travrosty]

Not one person on this site can take down a PSA or JSA cert. In fact it is almost impossible to take down Global. There is only one person that Ebay feels is better qualified than those other Tpa's. That is the only person that has that power.

thats a bunch of baloney on ebays part, its all political, no one is more qualified than mark ogren to report and help take down a boxing autograph certed by psa or jsa that is bad, not your so called super expert. (mark even shows undeniable proof) so how is super expert more qualified at boxing? like i said, it's all POLITICAL.

There are people who are EMR's with no expertise at all. It's just who you know at ebay. that's it.

[RichardSimon]

thats a bunch of baloney on ebays part, its all political, no one is more qualified than mark ogren to report and help take down a boxing autograph certed by psa or jsa that is bad, not your so called super expert. (mark even shows undeniable proof) so how is super expert more qualified at boxing? like i said, it's all POLITICAL.

There are people who are EMR's with no expertise at all. It's just who you know at ebay. that's it.

Sorry Travis, I should have stated that the person I am referring to is only involved with baseball. I should have been more specific but he probably does not know anything about boxing and he would never attempt to take down a boxing autograph.
And knowing someone at ebay has nothing to do with this. There is no benefit to EMR members for removing autographs.

[travrosty]

Sorry Travis, I should have stated that the person I am referring to is only involved with baseball. I should have been more specific but he probably does not know anything about boxing and he would never attempt to take down a boxing autograph.
And knowing someone at ebay has nothing to do with this. There is no benefit to EMR members for removing autographs.

i understand that , but its still political, thats why boxing psa and jsa items dont get taken down. if you know someone at ebay, you get to be an emr and can take down stuff, if you don,t, then you are chopped liver. that is why the guy i know who isnt an expert at anything is an emr. how did he get to be an emr? well, he knows someone at ebay.

that's all i wanted to say. it doesnt have a lot to do with someones expertise, a lot of really good experts are not only NOT emr's, then routinely have some of their stuff removed off of ebay, by other people who are and just want to screw with them and use their ebay influence against other people they don't like. POLITICAL.

the benefit is that they have the power to remove autographs they dont like, from people they dont like if they choose to misuse the power, which some do and some don't.

[RichardSimon]

i understand that , but its still political, thats why boxing psa and jsa items dont get taken down. if you know someone at ebay, you get to be an emr and can take down stuff, if you don,t, then you are chopped liver. that is why the guy i know who isnt an expert at anything is an emr. how did he get to be an emr? well, he knows someone at ebay.

that's all i wanted to say. it doesnt have a lot to do with someones expertise, a lot of really good experts are not only NOT emr's, then routinely have some of their stuff removed off of ebay, by other people who are and just want to screw with them and use their ebay influence against other people they don't like. POLITICAL.

the benefit is that they have the power to remove autographs they dont like, from people they dont like if they choose to misuse the power, which some do and some don't.

Travis - if the guy you know isn't an expert at anything then how did he get to be an EMR? When John G. was in charge of his division he approved EMR members. He would never have approved someone who knew nothing.
And if this person is an EMR why would he even bother to become an EMR if he is not an expert?
Just askin'.

[David Atkatz]

the benefit is that they have the power to remove autographs they dont like, from people they dont like if they choose to misuse the power, which some do and some don't.And he has the power to have autographs he does like removed--if they're from people he doesn't like. (All the while publicly patting himself on the back, never letting us forget what a tireless protector of the hobby he is.)

[RichardSimon]

The piece in question is now gone.

[RichardSimon]

the benefit is that they have the power to remove autographs they dont like, from people they dont like if they choose to misuse the power, which some do and some don't.

Travis - tell me who in the EMR team is misusing their power. That person can be removed from the team very quickly.

[David Atkatz]

...tell me who in the EMR team is misusing their power. That person can be removed from the team very quickly.That's a joke, right? (I wonder who it could be. Hmmm... )

[David Atkatz]

The piece in question is now gone.They're listening to you again! Whew! That's a real load off my mind!

[Exhibitman]

I'm just a simple small town attorney so maybe I missed the veiled references; who is this magical authority whose word is law at ebay

[mighty bombjack]

I'm just a simple small town attorney so maybe I missed the veiled references; who is this magical authority whose word is law at ebay

only they know who is them

[Forever Young]

only they know who is them

Yoda?

[Westsiders]

If Yoda lives in Michigan....then yes! :)

[mr2686]

only they know who is them

Well, if that's the case then...I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together. Don't forget, the Walrus was Paul!

[RichardSimon]

I'm just a simple small town attorney so maybe I missed the veiled references; who is this magical authority whose word is law at ebay

What a funny group we have here.
This person wants to remain anonymous. If any of you comedians here :D were the one that I was talking about and you requested anonymity how would you feel if I told the board who you were?
And you guys better be good or your ebay attempted sales will all vanish. :D:D:D:D;);):D:D:D:D.

[Runscott]

............

[Exhibitman]

What a funny group we have here.
This person wants to remain anonymous. If any of you comedians here :D were the one that I was talking about and you requested anonymity how would you feel if I told the board who you were?
And you guys better be good or your ebay attempted sales will all vanish. :D:D:D:D;);):D:D:D:D.

A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy; or, perhaps both.

- James Madison

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.

- Patrick Henry

Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants

- Justice Louis Brandeis

Everybody knows that corruption thrives in secret places, and avoids public places, and we believe it a fair presumption that secrecy means impropriety.

- Woodrow Wilson

Secrecy, being an instrument of conspiracy, ought never to be the system of a regular government.

- Jeremy Bentham

Secrecy is for losers.

- Senator Patrick Moynihan

They're on double-secret probation!

- Dean Vernon Wormer

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/deanwormer.jpg

[David Atkatz]

And you guys better be good or your ebay attempted sales will all vanish. :D:D:D:D;);):D:D:D:D."Many a truth is spoken in jest."

[MooseDog]

Well, if that's the case then...I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together. Don't forget, the Walrus was Paul!

Mike -

+1 for an awesome Beatles reference in context!

[RichardSimon]

A popular government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy; or, perhaps both.

- James Madison

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.

- Patrick Henry

Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants

- Justice Louis Brandeis

Everybody knows that corruption thrives in secret places, and avoids public places, and we believe it a fair presumption that secrecy means impropriety.

- Woodrow Wilson

Secrecy, being an instrument of conspiracy, ought never to be the system of a regular government.

- Jeremy Bentham

Secrecy is for losers.

- Senator Patrick Moynihan

They're on double-secret probation!

- Dean Vernon Wormer

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/dropins/deanwormer.jpg

Adam,
I guess your word does not mean as much to you as my word means to me.
The gentleman requested anonymity, I will honor that request.
If he asked you for anonymity I guess you would have told him yes and then revealed his name to the group.
I guess that is good for the group, to know that they should not tell you something that they want to be kept quiet.

[HRBAKER]

Richard,
I don't think that was his point.
Those who insist on operating in secrecy invite skepticism about their motives, that's all.
That's the way I took the quotes.

[RichardSimon]

Richard,
I don't think that was his point.
Those who insist on operating in secrecy invite skepticism about their motives, that's all.
That's the way I took the quotes.

If a friend told you something and asked you not to repeat that information, what would you have done?
Why skeptical about it? I have clearly stated why I did not reveal the name of the person.
And his quotes were mostly about a government operating in secrecy, not an individual who wanted to honor a request from a friend.

[HRBAKER]

Not skeptical about your reasons, I clearly understand that - you gave your word. Reread my post.
It's not that important, I've already decided I'm not cut out for the cloak and dagger world of autograph collecting.

Best, Jeff

[cubsfan-budman]

Your friend wants to remain anonymous so that he/she is not held accountable for their actions.

Simple as that.

If you gave your word, you ought not tell anyone, as that would be a violation of their trust.

The "anonymous EMR'r" on the other hand, should make themselves known so that they can be correctly applauded for their good works and answer for their bad choices.

[shelly]

Your friend wants to remain anonymous so that he/she is not held accountable for their actions.

Simple as that.

If you gave your word, you ought not tell anyone, as that would be a violation of their trust.

The "anonymous EMR'r" on the other hand, should make themselves known so that they can be correctly applauded for their good works and answer for their bad choices.

First, I think if Ebay or that person wanted his or her name out in the public I think it would have already been out there.
As to answer for their bad choices. I have a question. Can you tell me from your own experience was anything been taken down that had any effect on you? If so could you post the link.

[Mr. Zipper]

The "anonymous EMR'r" on the other hand, should make themselves known so that they can be correctly applauded for their good works and answer for their bad choices.

Right, because the EMRs are the real problem with eBay. And the upaid volunteers should be exposed to harassment by criminal fake sellers and message board know-it-alls with axes to grind. :rolleyes:

Why don't you tell us what steps you have taken to help clean up the hobby so we can applaud or criticize you as we see fit?

[RichardSimon]

Right, because the EMRs are the real problem with eBay. And the upaid volunteers should be exposed to harassment by criminal fake sellers and message board know-it-alls with axes to grind. :rolleyes:

Why don't you tell us what steps you have taken to help clean up the hobby so we can applaud or criticize you as we see fit?

+++++

[cubsfan-budman]

You know my name because its posted above each of my messages.

Applaud or criticize as you see fit.

Not sure how it's relevant to this particular discussion though.

Right, because the EMRs are the real problem with eBay. And the upaid volunteers should be exposed to harassment by criminal fake sellers and message board know-it-alls with axes to grind. :rolleyes:

Why don't you tell us what steps you have taken to help clean up the hobby so we can applaud or criticize you as we see fit?

[Mr. Zipper]

You know my name because its posted above each of my messages.

Applaud or criticize as you see fit.

Not sure how it's relevant to this particular discussion though.

How many expert volunteers do you think eBay would get if they knew their names would be publicized?

You can pick a debatable case here or there... but the fact of the matter is that the items EMRs report the most are mass-produced forgeries being sold by sellers who are sometimes part of organized forgery rings. Rings from the west coast, a ring from Chicago, a ring from Japan and on and on. In other words -- professional criminals.

You want your name available to these people so they can call you at night? Maybe they'll mention where you live and talk about your kids photos on your wife's Facebook page.

Or maybe you'll end up on a list on some scummy anonymous smear site. Or maybe you'll be named in a groundless lawsuit that will still cost you lots of money to make go away.

You got it now?

[cubsfan-budman]

How many expert volunteers do you think eBay would get if they knew their names would be publicized?

You can pick a debatable case here or there... but the fact of the matter is that the items EMRs report the most are mass-produced forgeries being sold by sellers who are sometimes part of organized forgery rings. Rings from the west coast, a ring from Chicago, a ring from Japan and on and on. In other words -- professional criminals.

You want your name available to these people so they can call you at night? Maybe they'll mention where you live and talk about your kids photos on your wife's Facebook page.

Or maybe you'll end up on a list on some scummy anonymous smear site. Or maybe you'll be named in a groundless lawsuit that will still cost you lots of money to make go away.

You got it now?

Meh. You win dude. I don't really have a dog in this fight and didn't really intend to get dragged this far into it.

I will say that I agree with the general sentiment of other folks on this site that holds that more transparency is better. I think one of the main issues with the autograph side is the perceived need for so much secrecy.

Just my opinion.

[Runscott]

I think one of the main issues with the autograph side is the perceived need for so much secrecy.


Some have valid reasons for hiding their secrets, but some simply don't know anything. I think that if we ever had a thread about validating Ruth autographs, where EVERYONE here participated, we'd come up with basically nothing. I know one respected person here who could only provide confusing garbage, even if he really tried, and another non-respected one who would provide similar, or worse. And there's everything in-between.

So why even bother?

[travrosty]

Meh. You win dude. I don't really have a dog in this fight and didn't really intend to get dragged this far into it.

I will say that I agree with the general sentiment of other folks on this site that holds that more transparency is better. I think one of the main issues with the autograph side is the perceived need for so much secrecy.

Just my opinion.



i agree, more transparency the better, secrecy=something to hide, but he is part of team east coast, so that's all you need to know about transparency. i will call out all the boxing fakes i see, and you can publicize my name. a fake is a fake. but sometimes the fake out comes from the authenticators or experts that have no name, because no name = no accountability. That's why abc authentication company and xyz authentication company won't tell you just exactly who looked at and authenticated your autograph.

Nobody cares who the em's are. they care about emr's getting their title and responsibility through expertise, not who they know. Some of the most experienced and expert autograph people wouldn't be allowed to be an emr, while some real dodos have been let in.

collectors also want the online auction site and doing the right thing and pulling ALL fake autographs, which they wont do.

there is a nascar guy who is an emr and can get other nascar signed items pulled by his word, and he also sells a LOT of nascar signed photos himself on the same auction site with the tagline "beware of other sellers who sell nothing but fakes"

this is outrageous he is allowed to do that and be an emr. he also promises for a fact that if you buy from him, all of the items you buy will pass a certain authentication company. of course he is also the authenticator for that company.

it's all a big game people. from a to z and will be until the day these people are exposed, and their records searched and they are outed for gaming the system. anonymity=license to do what you want unfettered by any checks and balances. These companie are issuing coa's with no exemplars, we have seen it, the online auction houses protect any coa's from these companies, scratch back here and reciprocate!


SGC card grading company has been doing autographs a couple of months now and everytime i email them asking them who their authenticators are and if they will put up a webpage saying who their authenticators are, i get no response. it's been two months, they can't put up an authenticators bio page????? people are sending in autographs to them, they have no idea who is authenticating them. it's unbelievable and bizzaro world but most collectors don't care from what i have gathered. unbox, sort, tag, enter into database, authenticate, slab, double check accuracy and throw into box for 8 dollars per autograph, that's all the collector wants, the slab and the cert number.

[shelly]

So you are saying the guys are pulling down good stuff so they can sell there own. So I guess what you are saying is that people on this site that are helping Ebay are crooks?:confused:

[Big Dave]

I remember when Spence opened up an ebay account and started selling stuff on there. This was a strict violation of ebay's policy which stated the ebay recommended authenticators would not sell on ebay as that was a conflict. After this was reported and shown to be against their own policy, his account was terminated.

[shelly]

I think that was Joe Orlando and he had to sell his whole collection. That was for gradeing cards.

[shelly]

What does that have to do with the question.:confused:

[Big Dave]

No, it was Spence right after he left PSA and started on his own. He didn't last long on ebay.

[shelly]

Ok. What does that I have to do with guys that try and get rid of bad stuff on Ebay. They dont get paid. Should they be told you cant sell if you help us. Then nothing will ever come down.:confused:

[slidekellyslide]

No, it was Spence right after he left PSA and started on his own. He didn't last long on ebay.

I'm pretty sure he's still on there...I inquired about a 1959 set for a friend of mine and the response came from someone named Don Spence. This was just yesterday.

[travrosty]

Ok. What does that I have to do with guys that try and get rid of bad stuff on Ebay. They dont get paid. Should they be told you cant sell if you help us. Then nothing will ever come down.:confused:

nothing is coming down the way it is. i cant get a psa or jsa fake boxing item down, even if i run it through an emr, which i have, so whats the difference?

selling is one thing, but being an authenticator who promises the items he sells with pass the company he works foris wrong. and also, putting in a disclaimer paraphrasing "beware other sellers who sell nothing but fakes" it's just totally wrong. he is using his titles to his advantage and also an emr for ebay. conflicts of interest?

[thenavarro]

I'm pretty sure he's still on there...I inquired about a 1959 set for a friend of mine and the response came from someone named Don Spence. This was just yesterday.

Don Spence is a fellow Texan with an absolutely phenomenal collection. Jimmy ain't Don.

Mike

[slidekellyslide]

Don Spence is a fellow Texan with an absolutely phenomenal collection. Jimmy ain't Don.

Mike

Doh! I knew that.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Right, because the EMRs are the real problem with eBay. And the upaid volunteers should be exposed to harassment by criminal fake sellers and message board know-it-alls with axes to grind. :rolleyes:

Why don't you tell us what steps you have taken to help clean up the hobby so we can applaud or criticize you as we see fit?

Well written, Mr. Zipper.

It's easy for these Message Board Know-It-Alls to criticize us because they know that good guys like us, who are pro-active, won't resort to smear campaigns, etc., to go after those that criticize us. It's part of the territory that we deal in.


And those same Message Board Know-It-Alls start whing and crying when information that we've worked to acquire and possess to fight the bad guys, isn't shared by us with them. Well that's too bad. I have reasons for not sharing certain information. Some information I share with my friends in the hobby. Other information, I don't share with anyone.

Richard, Shelly, Steve Zarelli and myself have all been smeared at one time or another and more. But we continue on. And then we have to hear from Atkatz about our "patting ourselves on the back." This coming from someone who is ZERO pro-active. Wow.

So, Atkatz, if it makes you feel good to make fun of me, or call me names, then please feel free to do so. Because the truth is, that's all you have.

And as for some of the rest you, if it makes you feel good to make fun of me, then please continue to do so, because I will post what I want, not what you want. Do you you want what I know? Then go out and get it the same way I did.

And what right do any of you have to demand that EMRs reveal who they are? They do a job that is thankless without compensation.

[David Atkatz]

So, Atkatz, if it makes you feel good to make fun of me, or call me names, then please feel free to do so.Thanks, Chris! Don't mind if I do!

You make it so easy--such a self-righteous little man. Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough in the "Babe Ruth?" thread?
(Embarrassed enough to stay away for eleven days. Did you think we'd all forget in only eleven days what a fool you made of yourself?)

And, of course, you had absolutely nothing to do with my genuine Ruth/Gehrig ball being removed by Richard's all-powerful nameless-one.

[slidekellyslide]

Well written, Mr. Zipper.

It's easy for these Message Board Know-It-Alls to criticize us because they know that good guys like us, who are pro-active, won't resort to smear campaigns, etc., to go after those that criticize us. It's part of the territory that we deal in.


And those same Message Board Know-It-Alls start whing and crying when information that we've worked to acquire and possess to fight the bad guys, isn't shared by us with them. Well that's too bad. I have reasons for not sharing certain information. Some information I share with my friends in the hobby. Other information, I don't share with anyone.

Richard, Shelly, Steve Zarelli and myself have all been smeared at one time or another and more. But we continue on. And then we have to hear from Atkatz about our "patting ourselves on the back." This coming from someone who is ZERO pro-active. Wow.

So, Atkatz, if it makes you feel good to make fun of me, or call me names, then please feel free to do so. Because the truth is, that's all you have.

And as for some of the rest you, if it makes you feel good to make fun of me, then please continue to do so, because I will post what I want, not what you want. Do you you want what I know? Then go out and get it the same way I did.

And what right do any of you have to demand that EMRs reveal who they are? They do a job that is thankless without compensation.


I just don't buy that secrecy is the way to clean up the hobby. Sorry. The "Michigan forger" has been allowed to forge for decades while you guys sit back and keep his secret for him. Call me cynical, but it seems the only people who get to know your secrets are people who make money in this hobby.

Some of you knew for a long time that David's 1927 ball was a forgery and you kept it a secret.

Thanks...I guess.

[RichardSimon]

I just don't buy that secrecy is the way to clean up the hobby. Sorry. The "Michigan forger" has been allowed to forge for decades while you guys sit back and keep his secret for him. Call me cynical, but it seems the only people who get to know your secrets are people who make money in this hobby.

Some of you knew for a long time that David's 1927 ball was a forgery and you kept it a secret.

Thanks...I guess.

Aside from reporting him to the FBI, which was done, what do you suggest should be done about the Michigan forger Dan??
We allowed him to forge for decades?? Really?? Is that what you think??
We allowed him?? Can anyone make a dumber statement on this board than that one??

[thetruthisoutthere]

I just don't buy that secrecy is the way to clean up the hobby. Sorry. The "Michigan forger" has been allowed to forge for decades while you guys sit back and keep his secret for him. Call me cynical, but it seems the only people who get to know your secrets are people who make money in this hobby.

Some of you knew for a long time that David's 1927 ball was a forgery and you kept it a secret.

Thanks...I guess.

Wow, this coming from a guy who admittedly knows ZERO about autographs.

This is the same guy who was defending the Huggins & Scott Babe Ruth signed ticket, but yet knows ZERO about autographs.

Geez, Dan, would you have defended that Huggins & Scott Babe Ruth signed ticket if Huggins & Scott wasn't a Net54 advertiser?

And by the way, Dan, I was the one who infomed Atkatz that his "1927 Yankees" baseball was not authentic after his avatar caught my eye. Before that, I had never seen David's "1927 Yankees" baseball. Then later on Atkatz would claim that he sent it to a friend of his, who told him his ball was not authentic. Atkatz will never admit that it was me who informed him first that it was not authentic. As a matter of fact, at the time David and I were still cordial towards each other, I sent him a message that read "nice ball." I didn't have the heart to tell him it was not authentic.

Richard wrote "Aside from reporting him to the FBI, which was done, what do you suggest should be done about the Michigan forger Dan??
We allowed him to forge for decades?? Really?? Is that what you think??
We allowed him?? Can anyone make a dumber statement on this board than that one??"

We do what we can and we (the pro-active collectors against forgers and sellers of forgeries) hope for the best.

I agree with Richard when he wrote "Can anyone make a dumber statement on this board than that one??"

[David Atkatz]

i As a matter of fact, at the time David and I were still cordial towards each other, I sent him a message that read "nice ball." I didn't have the heart to tell him it was not authentic.What a guy!

[slidekellyslide]

Aside from reporting him to the FBI, which was done, what do you suggest should be done about the Michigan forger Dan??
We allowed him to forge for decades?? Really?? Is that what you think??
We allowed him?? Can anyone make a dumber statement on this board than that one??

You could tell us what the tell is, you could tell us exactly where this guy lives without giving us his name. You could tell all kinds of things without fear of legal action against you. But you won't because you make money giving your opinion on good or bad and the bad guys keep you in business.

[David Atkatz]

And by the way, Dan, I was the one who infomed Atkatz that his "1927 Yankees" baseball was not authentic after his avatar caught my eye. No Chris, it was Richard. And not out of the kindness of his heart, or the desire to protect the integrity of the hobby, either. It was a pure act of spite.

On Halloween two years ago Richard posted another of his typical cryptic threads--this one concerning a forger he called "Johnny F." I criticized him for once again (and again, and again, and again) posting just enough to show us how much he himself knows, but not enough to be useful to anyone. He could, for the board's enlightenment, have posted examples of this forger's work, but, to quote the late, great, John Belushi, "Nooooooo."

Throwing a little tantrum at my audacity in criticizing the master, Richard told me that I should be very familiar with Johnny F's work, since I was so "close to it." On further questioning, he revealed his long-held secret--the ball was fake--and informed me that another on the board agreed. (Ain't that Richard all the way? Always backing up his statements by referring to unnamed board members.) At that point, Chris posted that the unnamed person was him.

Sometimes--when Chris or Richard post something priest-like--I say to myself 'Let it be. Don't bother posting a response--it ain't worth another argument.' In this case, however, I'm extremely glad I pissed Richard off--it led to the removal from my collection of a significant forgery.

That might never have happened had I stayed in Richard's good graces.

[Runscott]

Wow, this coming from a guy who admittedly knows ZERO about autographs.

This is the same guy who was defending the Huggins & Scott Babe Ruth signed ticket, but yet knows ZERO about autographs.

Chris - Dan, myself and others, defended the process for calling out a forgery, not the signed ticket itself. You know this, so stop deflecting. If you have something to say either say it, or go back into hiding. This has gotten old.

[Big Dave]

+1

[travrosty]

Chris - Dan, myself and others, defended the process for calling out a forgery, not the signed ticket itself. You know this, so stop deflecting. If you have something to say either say it, or go back into hiding. This has gotten old.

agreed.


we were concerned about the PROCESS of calling it a fake and impugning an auction house, and two authentication firms without showing any proof.

it might be fake, it might be real, that wasn't the point. and of course everyone else knows ZERO about autographs, but the guy who knows 100 won't say what he knows about the ruth?

[RichardSimon]

You could tell us what the tell is, you could tell us exactly where this guy lives without giving us his name. You could tell all kinds of things without fear of legal action against you. But you won't because you make money giving your opinion on good or bad and the bad guys keep you in business.

Dan,
You really are thoughtless, how did you become a Mod?
For a guy who knows nothing about autographs, what are you doing in this forum? You are the CNN of this forum.
The guy lives in Michigan, if I knew his address which I don't, what good would it do you? You gonna go out and get 'em?
And I make most of my money buying and selling, authentication is not a big part of my business at all. It is minimal. I don't advertise it, except for my website, which mostly advertises my buying and selling, I have not spent a huge sum of money like PSA. My advertising budget for authentication is $0.
What activity have you ever undertaken for the good of the hobby Dan?
Tell us, we are all waiting.
The accusation that I won't tell you about the guy because I make money from bad guy activities is ludicrous and something that I would have thought would be beneath you. I guess it is not.
I did not think someone on this board could make the posts that you do, you are special Dan.

[slidekellyslide]

I have no idea if the autograph is real or not...the provenance is not good enough for me to buy it, but I wouldn't spend that much on a leap of faith in anything. The process of calling it out when it was already certed by JSA and showing ZERO proof is what irks me. Using Net54 for an unknown agenda irks me, and Chris seems to be doing a lot of that.

edited to add: I also do not have an reins put on me when it comes to advertisers. Ask Heritage what they think of me....I was also critical of Huggins and Scott buying from their own auction and later selling on ebay.

[RichardSimon]

I have no idea if the autograph is real or not...the provenance is not good enough for me to buy it, but I wouldn't spend that much on a leap of faith in anything. The process of calling it out when it was already certed by JSA and showing ZERO proof is what irks me. Using Net54 for an unknown agenda irks me, and Chris seems to be doing a lot of that.

edited to add: I also do not have an reins put on me when it comes to advertisers. Ask Heritage what they think of me....I was also critical of Huggins and Scott buying from their own auction and later selling on ebay.

Dan,
Did you criticize them on Net54 or did you just e mail them with your concerns?
Have you been critical of Heritage on Net54?
Just askin' I really don't know what your answers will be but I am curious.

[David Atkatz]

Dan,
You really are thoughtless, how did you become a Mod?
For a guy who knows nothing about autographs, what are you doing in this forum? You are the CNN of this forum.
The guy lives in Michigan, if I knew his address which I don't, what good would it do you? You gonna go out and get 'em?
And I make most of my money buying and selling, authentication is not a big part of my business at all. It is minimal. I don't advertise it, except for my website, which mostly advertises my buying and selling, I have not spent a huge sum of money like PSA. My advertising budget for authentication is $0.
What activity have you ever undertaken for the good of the hobby Dan?
Tell us, we are all waiting.
The accusation that I won't tell you about the guy because I make money from bad guy activities is ludicrous and something that I would have thought would be beneath you. I guess it is not.
I did not think someone on this board could make the posts that you do, you are special Dan.Criticize Richard, and this is what you get.

No one on this board--no one--is more sharing of his collection--and his enthusiasm for collecting--than is Dan. No one here is more generous.

Were anyone here to compare Richard with Dan, who do you suppose would be found wanting?

[slidekellyslide]

Dan,
Did you criticize them on Net54 or did you just e mail them with your concerns?
Have you been critical of Heritage on Net54?
Just askin' I really don't know what your answers will be but I am curious.

I have been critical of both right here on the forum for all to see...I don't have time to search for the links to the threads right now because I'm headed to a hockey game, but I'll do so later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[thetruthisoutthere]

No Chris, it was Richard. And not out of the kindness of his heart, or the desire to protect the integrity of the hobby, either. It was a pure act of spite.

On Halloween two years ago Richard posted another of his typical cryptic threads--this one concerning a forger he called "Johnny F." I criticized him for once again (and again, and again, and again) posting just enough to show us how much he himself knows, but not enough to be useful to anyone. He could, for the board's enlightenment, have posted examples of this forger's work, but, to quote the late, great, John Belushi, "Nooooooo."

Throwing a little tantrum at my audacity in criticizing the master, Richard told me that I should be very familiar with Johnny F's work, since I was so "close to it." On further questioning, he revealed his long-held secret--the ball was fake--and informed me that another on the board agreed. (Ain't that Richard all the way? Always backing up his statements by referring to unnamed board members.) At that point, Chris posted that the unnamed person was him.

Sometimes--when Chris or Richard post something priest-like--I say to myself 'Let it be. Don't bother posting a response--it ain't worth another argument.' In this case, however, I'm extremely glad I pissed Richard off--it led to the removal from my collection of a significant forgery.

That might never have happened had I stayed in Richard's good graces.

It was me, David.

It was me who asked Richard to take a closer look at the photos of your "1927 Yankees" baseball. It was then, that Richard agreed the sigs were not authentic.

I was the first one on this board that was suspicious of those autographs after something caught my eye about your avatar.

[David Atkatz]

It was me, David.

It was me who asked Richard to take a closer look at the photos of your "1927 Yankees" baseball. It was then, that Richard agreed the sigs were not authentic.

I was the first one on this board that was suspicious of those autographs after something caught my eye about your avatar.I guess nothing gets by that "autograph eye" of yours. LOL!

You may have spoken to Richard, but you were not the first to tell me. (I guess I just didn't piss you off soon enough.)

Don't worry, though, Chris. I consider both yours and Richard's behavior here equally hypocritical, duplicitous, and inexcusable.

[shelly]

To the people that I have a lot of respect for stop acting like third graders.:mad:
To the rest.
I was thinking of something to say but its not worth it. You will never change:(

[thetruthisoutthere]

By the way, David, you have no one to blame but yourself about your first "1927 Yankees" baseball.

You're the self-proclaimed vintage Yankees autograph expert.

You're the one that attempted to start-up a Quick Opinion service on Net54.

You held that "1927 Yankees" ball for over decade and during that time you never knew about the person who penned that baseball? Why?

Self-proclaimed experts like yourself are suppose to be keeping up with the Joneses.

[RichardSimon]

It was me, David.

It was me who asked Richard to take a closer look at the photos of your "1927 Yankees" baseball. It was then, that Richard agreed the sigs were not authentic.

I was the first one on this board that was suspicious of those autographs after something caught my eye about your avatar.

Chris is 100% correct.

[thetruthisoutthere]

I guess nothing gets by that "autograph eye" of yours. LOL!

You may have spoken to Richard, but you were not the first to tell me. (I guess I just didn't piss you off soon enough.)

Don't worry, though, Chris. I consider both yours and Richard's behavior here equally hypocritical, duplicitous, and inexcusable.

Thank you for the compliment, David.

[David Atkatz]

By the way, David, you have no one to blame but yourself about your first "1927 Yankees" baseball.That's true. And I never said otherwise. I bought the ball because I was fooled by it. My mistake, and mine alone.

Not sharing with me the fact that you thought the ball a forgery as soon as you had suspicions is, though, as I stated before, hypocritical, and inexcusable.

But, you just go on publicly congratulating yourself for whatever you do.

We're all used to it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

That's true. And I never said otherwise. I bought the ball because I was fooled by it. My mistake, and mine alone.

Not sharing with me the fact that you thought the ball a forgery as soon as you had suspicions is, though, as I stated before, hypocritical, and inexcusable.

But, you just go on publicly congratulating yourself for whatever you do.

We're all used to it.

David, you're unbelievable.

If you remember correctly, it was August 2011 when I first saw full images of your "1927 Yankees" ball. I requested photos from you after your avatar made me suspicious of the autographs.

Before that, I had never seen your first "1927 Yankees" ball.

When I first wanted to tell you the autographs were forgeries, I didn't have the heart to do it. I have written that more than a few times here on Net54.

It was approximately two weeks later that I finally informed you all of the autographs were forgeries.

And you didn't believe me, did you, David?

No you didn't.

You went to your friend Jodi, didn't you, David? Then you told the Net54 members here that your friend relayed that the autographs were forgeries.

You give the impression that I knew for months or years that your "1927 Yankees" ball were all forgeries and that I held that information from you. That's a 100% lie.

That isn't the case. You know it and I know it.

That's what you do, David. You spin and deflect. Then you'll start calling me names. Why? Because that's what you do.

[David Atkatz]

I've posted what happened above. As usual, you present a totally self-serving, BS version.

What part of "In a fit of pique, Richard told me the ball was a 'Johnny F' original" don't you understand?

Richard told me, Chris. Richard. (Only to get back at me, but, what the hell. It was still Richard.)

I know you're his little lap-dog, Chris. But you still are two different people.

[David Atkatz]

You give the impression that I knew for months or years that your "1927 Yankees" ball were all forgeries and that I held that information from you. That's a 100% lie.

As a matter of fact, at the time David and I were still cordial towards each other, I sent him a message that read "nice ball." I didn't have the heart to tell him it was not authentic

You can't even keep your story straight from one post to the next within the same thread!

"Oh what tangled webs we weave... "

[Big Dave]

Seriously kids.....who gives a sh**?

[David Atkatz]

Here is the "nice ball" email you refer to Chris:

REDACTED BY LEON

It is dated 22 August 2011.

Richard informed me the ball was fake on 31 October 2011, and you then chimed in.

Two months later.

By your own admission above, when you sent the "nice ball" email, you knew the ball was a forgery. You said nothing until two months later--and then only when Richard publicly referred to "another board member" who agreed with him. You then identified yourself as that member.

Yet you just explicitly stated above that the idea that you withheld that information from me "for months" is a "100% lie."

Check your pants, Chris They're on fire.

[GrayGhost]

Seriously kids.....who gives a sh**?

Agreed. Guys who have so much to give to help with the fight against forgeries, and they engage in this needless crap. sad.

[thetruthisoutthere]

You can't even keep your story straight from one post to the next within the same thread!

"Oh what tangled webs we weave... "

Those statements are accurate.

What's the tangled web?

You know as well as I do, that after I got your full images of the ball, and I found my suspicions to be correct, I didn't have the heart to tell you they were bad. And I emailed you "Nice ball."

That is absolutely correct. At the time I didn't want to break your heart about the ball. It was two weeks after that I sent you a Net54 email that read "Do you know who Johnny Fang is?"

You have Dan and everyone else here thinking that I was holding back that information for years.

Tell me, David, how does a Tom Tresh collector know that your ball was bad, but a self-proclaimed vintage Yankees autograph expert not know?

David, write what you want and believe what you want.

[shelly]

I guess they do. :D

[shelly]

Chriis, when you told what you thought. Did he think you where correct?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is the "nice ball" email you refer to Chris:


It is dated 22 August 2011.

Richard informed me the ball was fake on 31 October 2011, and you then chimed in.

Two months later.

By your own admission above, when you sent the "nice ball" email, you knew the ball was a forgery. You said nothing until two months later--and then only when Richard publicly referred to "another board member" who agreed with him. You then identified yourself as that member.

Yet you just explicitly stated above that the idea that you withheld that information from me "for months" is a "100% lie."

Check your pants, Chris They're on fire.

You're right, David. I got my timeframe wrong.

And Richard has already confirmed that I sent him the photos of your "1927 Yankees" ball after my initial suspicions.

And you're point, David?

Are you blaming us because you owned a $10,000 forgery for over a decade?

Or are you using me getting my timeframe wrong as a way to deflect and spin?

Yep, I got the timeframe wrong. And yep, I didn't have the heart to tell you that you owned a set of forgeries.

You got me, David.

Sorry to disappoint you, David. I guess I'm not as perfect as you thought I was. My apologies for breaking your heart.

[David Atkatz]

I appreciate your admitting your mistake, Chris.

And, as I have said before, while I was initially heartbroken, the end result was the removal of a serious forgery from my collection. For that I'm grateful--grateful that I pissed Richard off.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Chriis, when you told what you thought. Did he think you where correct?

No he didn't, Shelly. He went to his friend Jodi, who confirmed that his "1927 Yankees" autographs were not authentic.

Why would David believe me? I'm just a lowly Tom Tresh collector who hasn't (according to David) spent more than a ten-spot on memorabilia.

After all, Shelly, David is the self-proclaimed vintage Yankees autograph expert.

Why isn't this self-proclaimed vintage Yankees autograph expert keeping up with the Joneses

Why doesn't this expert know of the various forgers that have been around? Isn't that part of being an expert; keeping up with the Joneses?

Tomorrow is a new day.

[shelly]

If you saw this ball and Richard saw the ball and Jodi was on the net at that time. Why did he not say anything. He was the one that was trusted.:confused:When was the ball purchased and why did he not show it to Jodi in the first place. Why are you being blamed for his mistake. If I am correct without your help he would have never had any idea it was bad no matter what the timeing was.
If you had a really good friend that you thought was an expert on autographs. Why would you not ask him before you bought an item that cost in the high teens. I am now really confused.

[David Atkatz]

If you saw this ball and Richard saw the ball and Jodi was on the net at that time. Why did he not say anything. He was the one that was trusted.:confused:When was the ball purchased and why did he not show it to Jodi in the first place. Why are you being blamed for his or her mistake. I am now really confused.You're confused? Why are you getting involved? You clearly have no idea what went on, when the ball was purchased, from whom the ball was purchased, etc. You--as usual--are totally ignorant. Yet you feel you have to comment, 'cause it involves your two buddies.

Jodi was the one that was trusted? You bet. For many, many, reasons.

Not the least of which is that he's not a self-serving blowhard, like your bandmates. (Are you three joined at the hip?)

[GrayGhost]

PLEASE TAKE IT PRIVATE . This is getting just plain sickening, and I don't understand why its allowed. Yeah, I only read it, because I hope someone is gonna say enough , or Leon Kills it.

[shelly]

You really think closeing this down would change anything?

[slidekellyslide]

Because I back up my words unlike some people here, this is for Richard.

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Criticism of Huggins and Scott

Thread
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=967711#post967711


Posts
http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=967711&postcount=10

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=968078&postcount=59

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=969348&postcount=101

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=969358&postcount=106

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=970240&postcount=161

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=970263&postcount=168


I could list many more, but I've proven my point that I'm not in anyone's pocket. I stand behind what I post, I admit when I'm wrong and I certainly don't start threads that have ulterior motives.

[shelly]

I is nice to see someone keep his word I would think that by morning you will have your name in lights.
The only downer is that the Buckeys will have you for brunch in the next couple months/:p

[slidekellyslide]

I is nice to see someone keep his word I would think that by morning you will have your name in lights.
The only downer is that the Buckeys will have you for brunch in the next couple months/:p

Hey, we're 1 and 1 against your Buckeyes since joining the B1G Ten, but yeah, you're probably right. :D

[RichardSimon]

Dan - I stated in one of my posts that I thought some of your questions to me were thoughtless.
I don't think I ever stated you were in anyone's pocket.
Thank you for posting links to your posts which do show where you stand.
You even apparently defended me in that thread about Heritage banning me. Thank you for that.
I still feel that you stating that "we" allowed the Michigan forger to continue to operate was very inappropriate, considering that we were not sitting idly by and doing nothing. It is not like we can arrest the guy. What we can do is very limited and sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it does not.
I am willing to bury the hatchet with you if that is agreeable to you.

[slidekellyslide]

Dan - I stated in one of my posts that I thought some of your questions to me were thoughtless.
I don't think I ever stated you were in anyone's pocket.
Thank you for posting links to your posts which do show where you stand.
You even apparently defended me in that thread about Heritage banning me. Thank you for that.
I still feel that you stating that "we" allowed the Michigan forger to continue to operate was very inappropriate, considering that we were not sitting idly by and doing nothing. It is not like we can arrest the guy. What we can do is very limited and sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it does not.
I am willing to bury the hatchet with you if that is agreeable to you.

Done! I don't doubt the sincerity you guys have in getting the bad guys...we definitely disagree on how it should be handled. I do think that the more knowledge that everyone has the better the autograph hobby will be.

[mr2686]

It's said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I think all some of us are trying to say is let's try something a little different. I think Richard and Chris and Shelly know by now the people on this board that are actually in it for the hobby or their own collections and that they can be trusted with some knowledge to help, if not stop, then at least contain some of the forgeries out there. I know everyone in the hobby has gained knowledge from the people that came before them and I hope that kind of comradery will continue on.

[PhilNap]

Chris I have a question. I completely understand not having the heart to inform someone that one of their prized possessions is in fact a forgery. But rather than say nothing you message him with a comment that would ony serve to reinforce his false sense of security that the ball was the real deal. What was your motivation to message David with such a comment?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is the "nice ball" email you refer to Chris:



It is dated 22 August 2011.

Richard informed me the ball was fake on 31 October 2011, and you then chimed in.

Two months later.

By your own admission above, when you sent the "nice ball" email, you knew the ball was a forgery. You said nothing until two months later--and then only when Richard publicly referred to "another board member" who agreed with him. You then identified yourself as that member.

Yet you just explicitly stated above that the idea that you withheld that information from me "for months" is a "100% lie."

Check your pants, Chris They're on fire.

Here's a good example of the double standard around here.

I've waited 24 hours for a so-called moderator on this site for citing Atkatz for posting a personal email in public on this forum.

Not one of you so-called mods cited the above infraction.

Atkatz calling me an a...hole is allowed and now this.

[David Atkatz]

Don't get so bent out of shape, Chris.

Leon's already stated that he's in your corner. (He's certainly not in mine.)

[thetruthisoutthere]

Don't get so bent out of shape, Chris.

Leon's already stated that he's in your corner. (He's certainly not in mine.)

I'm not bent out of shape, David.

Just curious about the double-standard by the mod stationed here.

[Leon]

Don't get so bent out of shape, Chris.

Leon's already stated that he's in your corner. (He's certainly not in mine.)

I don't follow every thread all of the time or catch every board infraction. Personal emails are not allowed to be posted. They have been edited out. Please don't post emails again, per the rules.

As for being in Chris's corner, I am in. I am for anyone that will help get rid of fraud in the hobby. I do think more transparency is almost always good...and understand fully about not revealing some minute details.

[David Atkatz]

Thanks so much, Leon. That email happened to catch Chris in a bold-faced lie. But I guess that's not so important.

[RichardSimon]

I don't follow every thread all of the time or catch every board infraction. Personal emails are not allowed to be posted. They have been edited out. Please don't post emails again, per the rules.

As for being in Chris's corner, I am in. I am for anyone that will help get rid of fraud in the hobby. I do think more transparency is almost always good...and understand fully about not revealing some minute details.

Kudos to you Leon for this post.

[David Atkatz]

Kudos to you Leon for this post.
Don't you ever get tired of making a show of kissing Leon's ass?