It's now official - Mastro trimmed hisT206 Wagner

[David W]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/memorabilia-dealer-admits-altering-famed-2-8-million-230020451--mlb.html

What a surprise.....

[CMIZ5290]

I'm still trying to figure out how in the world a PSA 5(MC) goes for $2.1 Mil. Makes you wonder what a legit PSA 8 would sell for....

[dabigyankeeman]

Whats so pitiful is that some people are saying the card will go UP in value instead of down, because of it becoming the infamous trimmed Wagner. Geez.

[T206Collector]

Whats so pitiful is that some people are saying the card will go UP in value instead of down, because of it becoming the infamous trimmed Wagner. Geez.

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

[bn2cardz]

Through a Diamondbacks spokesperson, Kendrick — the card's current owner — told Yahoo! Sports:
"As a collector of rare cards and a fan who enjoys the history of the game of baseball, today's news does not change my pride in owning the Honus Wagner T-206 card. In fact, I've been advised that the notoriety of this turn of events has actually increased the value of the card and I will continue to enjoy having it as part of the 'Diamondbacks collection.' "


Who advised him? Joe Orlando?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Spin.

[ruth-gehrig]

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

+1, well said. Gandil sells fairly well it seems, and I think without the scandal, not so much

[AMBST95]

We'll see what he thinks when it becomes the first Wagner to take a loss in a public sale. If you are a baller kind of collector, writing checks with multiple commas, you want the best, not what used to be the best.

[Leon]

Who advised him? Joe Orlando?

Maybe, and if he did he might be right. I don't condone the fraud with the trimming but it's still the best looking Wags in the hobby. I am still undecided if I think it's value has held. It certainly might have. It's hard to say.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

David Hall is now in an interesting position. He of the magnifying glass.

[Orioles1954]

Best looking? Really? Every time I see that card now I'll think "crimininal", "fraud", "fake" and "trimmed" before "best looking" comes to mind.

[Leon]

Best looking? Really? Every time I see that card now I'll think "crimininal", "fraud", "fake" and "trimmed" before "best looking" comes to mind.

You are entitled to your opinion but no matter what you say, what I said is true.

[barrysloate]

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

[slidekellyslide]

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Inexperienced grader. :D

[bigwinnerx]

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

[Jay Wolt]

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

[slidekellyslide]

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner has a story too....how much would it sell for?

[ruth-gehrig]

I believe the main issue for us smaller people who can't afford million dollar cards and this hobby as a whole is how many other cards are in holders that don't match the card? How did it get slabbed that way? If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

[gnaz01]

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

Barry,

I 100% agree with yours and Leon's statement. My thoughts are this: I think the value will remain flat or maybe decline a little IF it is kept in the same PSA holder of a NM-MT 8. We all, I think, should concur that it should reside in a PSA "Authentic" holder and IF that happens (which never will happen, IMO) then the value would drop dramatically.

Greg

[HOF Auto Rookies]

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

Well said Barry, everyone who was a potential buyer of this card, is going to research the history on it. I doubt, most likely anyone would throw 2mill on a card, or any item for that matter, without researching it.

[David W]

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.


Yes. Now he has something else to talk about at the Country Club. He already owned the most famous card ever, now he owns the most infamous famous card ever.

[lharri3600]

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

Now that's an ez one!:rolleyes:

[Shoele$$]

Barry,

I 100% agree with yours and Leon's statement. My thoughts are this: I think the value will remain flat or maybe decline a little IF it is kept in the same PSA holder of a NM-MT 8. We all, I think, should concur that it should reside in a PSA "Authentic" holder and IF that happens (which never will happen, IMO) then the value would drop dramatically.

Greg

That's the whole point right there, it's infamous and controversial because of the story behind the PSA 8 slab that it resides in......change it to the correct "A" slab and the allure will all but disappear.

[chaddurbin]

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

agreed...future owners of this card won't be collectors, just like the past owners. value of this card won't suddenly have a big drop. it will still be the highest priced wagner. and if kendrick don't get his price, he'll just keep it for his son to play with.

[atx840]

I'd just keep it. Gorgeous card either way.

[Leon]

That's the whole point right there, it's infamous and controversial because of the story behind the PSA 8 slab that it resides in......change it to the correct "A" slab and the allure will all but disappear.

But as I said several months ago, in a poll, what if (and this won't happen) PSA kept the same grade and flip but put the qualifier (handcut) on it? It would be what it is and still have the grade!! Personally, that is what I think should happen but it's not up to me AND I am in the minority (as usual).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Minority of one i think. :D:D

[Blitzu]

That PSA 5 at 2.1 million buy couldn't have come at a better time. Don't they now own the highest legitimate, non altered Wagner now? It's now king of the hill.

That book The Card, really hit the nail in the head. I have a feeling PSA is next....

[jcmtiger]

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

I don't think people collect Ty Cobb for being a villain, but for being a Great ballplayer!!!!!

Joe

[Leon]

Minority of one i think. :D:D

C'mon Peter, it was more than that. If I remember correctly (don't challenge me as I will find it) there were about 22% of the respondents that agreed with me. So there was some agreement, just not a lot. :o

[glynparson]

Is not king of the hill on wagners.

[SushiX37]

But as I said several months ago, in a poll, what if (and this won't happen) PSA kept the same grade and flip but put the qualifier (handcut) on it? It would be what it is and still have the grade!! Personally, that is what I think should happen but it's not up to me AND I am in the minority (as usual).

I couldn't agree more. I seem to remember stories from people who saw this card pre-PSA slab, and commented that it was larger then than it is now. Whose to say it wasn't scrap or handcut originally?

Rich

[Orioles1954]

no matter what you say, what I said is true.

Well, thank you. Whenever I need to know absolute truth, I know who to go to.

[bn2cardz]

That PSA 5 at 2.1 million buy couldn't have come at a better time. Don't they now own the highest legitimate, non altered Wagner now? It's now king of the hill.

That book The Card, really hit the nail in the head. I have a feeling PSA is next....

There is a PSA 5 with no qualifiers, but I for one don't care about qualifiers but others may. So the 5mc is at best tied for the best unaltered or in second place.

I posted about this in the thread where people were trying to guess the price that the 5mc would go for.

[auggiedoggy]

The PSA 5 without qualifiers is the best Wagner (that we are aware of) out there, no question. The recently auctioned Wagner would get the #2 spot.

BTW, I see that a PSA 1 Wagner owned by Charlie Sheen is up for sale at Robert Edwards Auctions. I'd take that one over the trimmed PSA 8. :p

[g_vezina_c55]

btw, i see that a psa 1 wagner owned by charlie sheen is up for sale at robert edwards auctions. I'd take that one over the trimmed psa 8. :p

x 2

[E93]

If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim, notwithstanding his non-involvement I suspect Joe Orlando has known the truth about the card for some time, but that's just a personal opinion. It will be very interesting to see what David Hall -- who was there -- directs PSA to do now.

[wonkaticket]

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

+1

[auggiedoggy]

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates.
JimB

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

If you know it's real and have no intention of selling it, why bother?

[Runscott]

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

If you are not going to sell it, and are not a slab collector, why on earth WOULD you?

I think the current owner of the Mastro Wagner got it right.

[travrosty]

But as I said several months ago, in a poll, what if (and this won't happen) PSA kept the same grade and flip but put the qualifier (handcut) on it? It would be what it is and still have the grade!! Personally, that is what I think should happen but it's not up to me AND I am in the minority (as usual).


then take the jumbo wagner and make that one an (8) hand cut too, or a 9?. the mc qualifier would even go away. you can't just start doing that and changing the rules because a trimmed card looks good.

everyone would start claiming their card came from a sheet and how do you prove it didn't? how do you prove that the gretzky wagner came from a sheet. prove it, not just conjecture. then the sheet mate plank would get a handcut too. instead, it resides in an A holder (trimmed) and the wagner doesn't? psa had too much to gain with debut card #1.

[barrysloate]

The finest untrimmed Wagner is owned by one of our board members and he has no intention of ever getting it professionally graded. He's simply not interested and doesn't care.

[g_vezina_c55]

The finest untrimmed Wagner is owned by one of our board members and he has no intention of ever getting it professionally graded. He's simply not interested and doesn't care.

Any pic ?


For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

It is verry cool that 3 great condition Wagner is still Raw in private collection

Any pic of these 3 Raw Wagner ?

[Shoele$$]

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

Exactly, Joe is what in his late 30's? That puts him around 16-17 years old when the card was graded. He was still popping pimples and learning how to drive when that decision was being made. A little too much emphasis on Orlando when it comes to PSA's role in the card, lol.

[barrysloate]

Nelson- I believe he has posted it before. Also, it is pictured in an archive of T206 Wagners that I of course have no idea how to find.

[ruth-gehrig]

Is it known who exactly was in the room when the card was graded? Was Mastro there??

[benjulmag]

Nelson- I believe he has posted it before. Also, it is pictured in an archive of T206 Wagners that I of course have no idea how to find.

This is the image Barry's referring to:

[jhs5120]

Personally, I have no problem with that Wagner designated an "8" - let's face it, it is a near mint card. Trimmed or not. There have always been rumors surrounding that card and I personally have no problem making it an exception to the rule.

[Runscott]

It's interesting how all of this has played out. For years we were told that there were original photos of the untrimmed Gretzky Wagner, yet no one would post them. Then a book comes out with 'the picture', and it's horrible and you still can't tell :confused:

Given that Mastro has now admitted to the trimming, will we finally get to see a clear, color photo of what it looked like before?

[auggiedoggy]

If you know it's real and have no intention of selling it, why bother?

Why? Because no one lives forever and you can't take it with you. Well, you could but it would be stupid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why? Because no one lives forever and you can't take it with you. Well, you could but it would be stupid.

I am sure the folks who own raw Wagners never thought of that, but perhaps they are reading this thread and will be grateful for your input. :rolleyes:

[Paul S]

Why? Because no one lives forever and you can't take it with you. Well, you could but it would be stupid.

What does life or death have to do with getting a card slabbed? Have we slipped that far?

[auggiedoggy]

I am sure the folks who own raw Wagners never thought of that, but perhaps they are reading this thread and will be grateful for your input. :rolleyes:

I am open to counselling these poor souls. Obviously they need my help. The first step is admitting it. I'm here for them. ;)

[Peter_Spaeth]

What does life or death have to do with getting a card slabbed? Have we slipped that far?

That makes two of us who should not have bothered to respond. :)

[Leon]

This is the image Barry's referring to:

Thanks for posting it Corey. A truly spectacular card.

[Rickyy]

This is the image Barry's referring to:

Beautiful.

Ricky Y

[g_vezina_c55]

This is the image Barry's referring to:

wow nice Wagner. The owner of that card is a member here ?

[Leon]

wow nice Wagner. The owner of that card is a member here ?

you are commenting to him (not me)

[g_vezina_c55]

Oh ok !
Thanks Leon ! Amazing card !

Any cool past stories behind this Wagner ?

[auggiedoggy]

This is the image Barry's referring to:

That's a beauty!!!

How did you come across this card?

[KCRfan1]

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

That's my question too. PSA looses a lot of credibility in my eyes ( even though I buy raw ) and I would think the collectors who only collect PSA or graded cards have to ask the same question. Do ANY of the grading companies measure the cards for correct size or do cards just pass an eye test? Grading is all over the place. Look at any PSA 5 and you will find card quality of all sorts. Yes, I resent the grading companies as a contributor to driving up the prices of cards. Before the grading companies, the cards we purchased had to pass a test, a test of our own eyes. This Wagner should be graded Authentic, evidence of trimming ( or trimmed ) therefore reducing the price / value of the card significantly. I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

[Tanman7baseball]

I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.[/QUOTE]

Lawyers who are viewing this thread please correct me if I'm wrong..

If Orlando filed for a case, PSA will only be involved if proven to knowingly grade the card with the knowledge of Mastro's trimming. PSA is not liable if they did not know Mastro trimmed it because their duty is to grade/authenticate a card in a reasonable manner. If somehow it is proven PSA breached this duty then they are with recovering the damages. But in the end it's an opinion service, and their reputation is the only thing that will be effected until proven otherwise.

[travrosty]

That's my question too. PSA looses a lot of credibility in my eyes ( even though I buy raw ) and I would think the collectors who only collect PSA or graded cards have to ask the same question. Do ANY of the grading companies measure the cards for correct size or do cards just pass an eye test? Grading is all over the place. Look at any PSA 5 and you will find card quality of all sorts. Yes, I resent the grading companies as a contributor to driving up the prices of cards. Before the grading companies, the cards we purchased had to pass a test, a test of our own eyes. This Wagner should be graded Authentic, evidence of trimming ( or trimmed ) therefore reducing the price / value of the card significantly. I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.



just pass an eye test most of the time, on psa's site, they answer the question if they put a ruler to every card, and the answer is no.

[teetwoohsix]

This is the image Barry's referring to:

Wow !!! Beautiful Wagner !!!

Thanks for posting that-

Sincerely, Clayton

[glynparson]

Qualifiers post. If not for the qualifier the card would be a 3 at best. Several examples in this neighborhood. If this were not as Wagner but say a 1954 aaron it would probably sell for less than a 3. The grade of a card is effected by imperfections to disregard them is laughable in my opinion.

[RCMcKenzie]

I know that when I first got back into the hobby in the late 90's early 2000's everyone loved them some Mastro and hated Broadway Rick on the message boards, Now, you guys want to crucify Mastro. We want Barabus or Broadway Rick. It's just a hobby, or should be just a hobby.

[drc]

I love everyone. My analyst said I had to.

"What about Hitler," I said, "Do I have to love Hitler?"
"Hitler's dead," she said.
"What about Travis Bickle? Do I have to love Travis Bickle?"
"That's a character from a movie. He's not a real person. Remember what I said about the people in movies? Remember we talked about that last session?"
"Oh yeah, I forgot . . . Maybe you'd better explain it to me again."

[teetwoohsix]

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

You are right Barry, they had to know about the unconfirmed rumors- but, I'm sure they also had to put at least a little faith behind the grade it was given. Had it not been graded an 8, I highly doubt the card would have sold for as much as it did.

There's no doubt it is a beautiful card. But, I don't think it is any different than any other T206 that's been trimmed; re-holdered with an "A" trimmed. I don't think it would be right to term it "handcut", like a printers scrap card or something.

He claims he trimmed the "sides"? I wish we could get more details. Sounds like it may have been a strip? Or was it trimmed all the way around? If so, maybe a sheet? I hope the judge makes him explain in detail :)

Sincerely, Clayton

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

As a lawyer I think that PSA is in a sticky situation. They face some liability because the grader said that he knew the card was trimmed, but still gave it a numerical grade. The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.

Another intersting question is what if any liability they face for allowing the card to remain encapsulated at this point. The cards encapsulation is their seal of approval that the card is an 8 - now it has been legally established that it is altered, thus an A. I am not sure of their policies but I would imagine that there is a provision, or should be, that allows them to buy back cards that were fraudulently encapsulated and remove them. Again issue stems from the knowing encapsulation of the fraudlent card - I would love to see the Justice Department's position.

[bn2cardz]

I don't understand the I don't care aboutQualifiers post. If not for the qualifier the card would be a 3 at best. Several examples in this neighborhood. If this were not as Wagner but say a 1954 aaron it would probably sell for less than a 3. The grade of a card is effected by imperfections to disregard them is laughable in my opinion.

I don't care about qualifiers. What is hard to understand?

I have never cared about cards that are centered or not centered (If anything I prefer the non centered cards). I have posted about this on other threads, it isn't just regarding the Wagner. I also know I am in the minority, but every one has preferences in this hobby and factory caused flaws don't bother me. It is the after factory flaws that I want to be graded.

[glynparson]

So what is do they bother you or not? You say one thing than say another? Sorry but trying to pretend flaws dont matter in value is so far from fact that it makes me laugh. Also the fact is this card is not a 5, so if there were no qualifier this would be a 3 at best, probably worse to pretend otherwise is laughable, so you cant try and say this is the highest graded because your wrong. How can you pretend a flaw is irrelevant to value? The facts are flaws are how cards are graded if this card was in fact an ex card the previous owner would have had it crossed to SGC, it was not an EX card so was therefore sold in the holder it was. Im not sure some understand qualifiers its not like they mean the card is this grade because of this flaw it means the card would be this grade but has one such major flaw that it is far worse than the assigned number but has most of the qualities of said grade.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I find it interesting that a while back in the Black Swamp find, PSA realized they mislabeled the wrong Wagner cards and aggressively fixed the problem before any sale was made. See this thread:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=153481

Now that a indisputably trimmed, multi-million dollar card has been sold and their liability is now enormous, PSA's silence is deafening.

If you look at PSA's Sport Collecting Glossary, here's what they have for "trimmed"


A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value.

See this link:

http://www.psacard.com/Resources/Lingo/T


I also now understand the current owner doesn't even seemed bothered about the card being trimmed.

This hobby (or what ever it is) never ceases to amaze me.

[Kenny Cole]

[QUOTE] The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.
[QUOTE]

I don't think that statement is accurate at all. IMO, those with standing to sue are everyone who got bid up and purchased the card based upon the false impression that it was actually an 8. The grader's statement makes it real ugly -- sort of in the category of fraud per se. In that regard, PSA certainly can't claim that it didn't expect buyers to rely upon the grade it gave because reliance upon the grade is precisely what it has been selling since day one.

Every purchaser who spent more than they would have had the true condition of the card been disclosed has a claim IMO. There may be defenses to the claim, like the Statute of Limitations, but I'm not seeing them working so well with respect to this particular card. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

[teetwoohsix]

Many collectors collect trimmed "A" cards because they can buy a card that looks like an 8 for way cheaper than what an actual 8 would cost.

How many collectors would buy a trimmed card graded an 8, knowing for a fact it was trimmed (so technically it's an "A") for 8 money?

If the owner doesn't care, and is just going to keep it, no problem there. I just don't see it retaining the price paid just because of the story behind it. Beautiful card, no doubt. But Mastro said he trimmed it. It's no longer a mystery.

Just my opinion-

Sincerely, clayton

[GoldenAge50s]

Late breaking news:

Mastro's wife has now admitted she trimmed her wagner a couple of times, too.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Many collectors collect trimmed "A" cards because they can buy a card that looks like an 8 for way cheaper than what an actual 8 would cost.

How many collectors would buy a trimmed card graded an 8, knowing for a fact it was trimmed (so technically it's an "A") for 8 money?

If the owner doesn't care, and is just going to keep it, no problem there. I just don't see it retaining the price paid just because of the story behind it. Beautiful card, no doubt. But Mastro said he trimmed it. It's no longer a mystery.

Just my opinion-

Sincerely, clayton

Clayton,

Several years ago, my answer would have been none or next to none, but since then I've learned - particularly the ones of the PSA registry ilk: "the label lovers", my answer is a significant number of people. There are people who are well aware that they bought a significant number of doctored cards and they too seem unphased about it. I know it's twisted beyond any rational comprehension, but these people do exist and they impact the market significantly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Every prior purchaser sold it at a hefty profit. No damages, no claim. They benefited from the fraud on the back end.

[teetwoohsix]

Clayton,

Several years ago, my answer would have been none or next to none, but since then I've learned - particularly the ones of the PSA registry ilk: "the label lovers", my answer is a significant number of people. There are people who are well aware that they bought a significant number of doctored cards and they too seem unphased about it. I know it's twisted beyond any rational comprehension, but these people do exist and they impact the market significantly.

I guess this would only make any kind of sense to people in competition with each other. It would be hard for me to look at a high grade card in my collection and know it's really a trimmed card that I extremely overpaid for. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to collect cards, but I do think it's wrong if a TPG is giving cards extremely high grades knowing they are trimmed- like the 8 Wagner.

Sincerely, Clayton

[calvindog]

I just hope Bill is spending some quality time with his priest today.

[brob28]

I don't think we'll know if Kendrick cares about the card being trimmed for sure until after he sells. Think about it, if you were him would you say anything negative like the card is now garbage or should be re-slabbed as an "A"? Certainly his offering an opinion like that could negatively impact it's value when his time to sell arrives. If I was him I'd say the same things he's now saying - because I would not want to loose my ass on my $2.8 million investment. My guess is he's not sleeping very soundly when it comes to thoughts of selling the card. It may or may not sell for more, but IMO this information certainly increases the chance that it will sell for less. Kind of rambling here but my point is: Kendricks opinion about how this information will not have negative impact on the card is certainly not an unbiased reflection on how the hobby will respond in the next sale so those who are using his opinion as a barometer of the hobbies pulse are slightly misguided.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

[QUOTE] The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.
[QUOTE]

I don't think that statement is accurate at all. IMO, those with standing to sue are everyone who got bid up and purchased the card based upon the false impression that it was actually an 8. The grader's statement makes it real ugly -- sort of in the category of fraud per se. In that regard, PSA certainly can't claim that it didn't expect buyers to rely upon the grade it gave because reliance upon the grade is precisely what it has been selling since day one.

Every purchaser who spent more than they would have had the true condition of the card been disclosed has a claim IMO. There may be defenses to the claim, like the Statute of Limitations, but I'm not seeing them working so well with respect to this particular card. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

I disagree with you 100%. Every purchaser of the card sold it for a profit. They haven't suffered any harm and thus have no standing to bring a claim. The only person who did suffer harm is Kendrick.

[nolemmings]

First, be careful using the term standing. They may not have an ultimately successful claim for which relief may be granted, but as prior owners of the card who would in some fashion argue that they were impacted by the fraud, they would likely have standing. True they would have to prove damage to sustain the claim, but depending on how they framed their pleadings they should beat any standing claim as such.

As for your assertion that only Mr. Kendrick suffered harm, how is that so unless and until he can show it is worth less than what he paid for it--otherwise he too has a profit (or net zero), and what evidence would you propose he use to show that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

As stated in my post #80, I see this more as a no damages issue than a technical standing issue, but I think we are all on the same page and it comes out to the same thing. The point is that any past owner may have paid a price inflated due to fraud but also sold at a price inflated due to fraud, so they suffered no harm. Put another way, on the front end they were the victim of fraud but on the back end they were the beneficiary.

[tschock]

As for your assertion that only Mr. Kendrick suffered harm, how is that so unless and until he can show it is worth less than what he paid for it--otherwise he too has a profit (or net zero), and what evidence would you propose he use to show that?

Even then, if the card DID sell for less, wouldn't he still have to show it was due to an inaccurate grade? The other side could argue market conditions (among other things) and it would be up to both sides to make their case. Personally, I believe the owner of the card has the better of the case, but it would still have to be "made", and not a "given" that it was mainly due to being "misgraded".

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I do recall reading that Mr. Kendrick put the Wagner on display at Cooperstown and later at the Diamondback's stadium for the 2011 All-Star Game. If he now continues to publicly display it - especially where money is paid to view it, in my opinion he legally has an obligation to either have the card re-labeled by PSA as AUTH or put an obvious disclaimer on the exhibit stating the card has been trimmed. Of course and even more so the same is true if he decides to resell the card.

[MattyC]

If deep down Kendrick no longer wants the card and intends to sell it, he instead should give it to PSA and have them reimburse him as per their policy and take the card out of circulation.

If they chose not to pay for whatever reason, it would be huge egg on their face, so to speak.

I wonder what would happen to it in that event...my understanding is that trimmed cards bought back by PSA are destroyed. No doubt this particular trimmed card would still be worth quite a bundle to some. Very interesting scenario.

Or perhaps he could negotiate with PSA, who seeking to avoid a huge payout, might agree to make him whole on his purchase when sold as "trimmed" at auction.

[drmondobueno]

I do recall reading that Mr. Kendrick put the Wagner on display at Cooperstown and later at the Diamondback's stadium for the 2011 All-Star Game. If he now continues to publicly display it - especially where money is paid to view it, in my opinion he legally has an obligation to either have the card re-labeled by PSA as AUTH or put an obvious disclaimer on the exhibit stating the card has been trimmed. Of course and even more so the same is true if he decides to resell the card.

It would seem to me PSA would have the same obligation. If auditors, for example, find their prior work was tainted by internal "happenstance", their obligation to disclose is clearly defined. It would seem to me the same in this situation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One would think that at some point psa has to take a position in light of mastro and his admission. I know they tend to play ostrich but with david hall having publicly stated that he examined the card and it was good, it seems eventually they have to deal with this. Then again they have not dealt with the Doyle, right?

[MattyC]

Nor have they dealt with the cello pack fiasco.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA has not publicly commented on the allegations in the indictment or in our book and newspaper articles. Orlando and David Hall, the president of Collectors Universe, PSA’s parent company, have not responded to requests for interviews.

But a mole who attended PSA’s invitation-only lunch at the National says the indictment and the allegations about the card were the main topic of discussion. Also, our spy tells us, the chicken Marsala was quite good.

Our mole says about 150 collectors and dealers attended the lunch, held Friday at the convention center. Hall, he says, got up and said he had to address the “800-pound gorilla in the room” – the indictment.

“He asked for a show of hands and said, ‘Anyone here see the Wagner?’ A bunch of hands go up. Then he asked, ‘Has anyone seen it outside its holder?’ And he is the only one with his hand up.

“He takes out a magnifying glass and says ‘I have examined every aspect of that card. The only question we had was if it should be a PSA 7 or a PSA 8. We never considered that it had been altered,” our spy says.

Hall, according to our source, told his audience that they should question Mastro’s motives; Mastro might have agreed to say the card is trimmed as part of a deal with prosecutors. “He was suggesting you can’t believe Mastro, because now he will do anything to save himself,” our spy says.

Hall, according to our mole, also said Bill Hughes, the member of the grading team who told us he knew the card had been trimmed, has denied making those comments. Hall, our spy says, claims Hughes says it is an “out and out lie” that he knew the card had been trimmed.

Hall, our source added, also said PSA stood by its grade and would compensate the owner if it is proved that the card had been trimmed. But he didn’t say if the company would pay $300, the fee it charges to grade cards worth $10,000 or more, or the $2.8 million current owner Ken Kendrick paid for it in 2007.

[travrosty]

an agreement could have been made between the owner of the card and the authentication company already with confidentiality and we would never know.

kendrick doesnt seem mad at psa. i would be.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

First, be careful using the term standing. They may not have an ultimately successful claim for which relief may be granted, but as prior owners of the card who would in some fashion argue that they were impacted by the fraud, they would likely have standing. True they would have to prove damage to sustain the claim, but depending on how they framed their pleadings they should beat any standing claim as such.

As for your assertion that only Mr. Kendrick suffered harm, how is that so unless and until he can show it is worth less than what he paid for it--otherwise he too has a profit (or net zero), and what evidence would you propose he use to show that?

Standing :The legally protectible stake or interest that an individual has in a dispute that entitles him to bring the controversy before the court to obtain judicial relief.

No previous owner has legally protectible stake. Feel free to further develop your argument.

The difference between Kendrick and the other owners is that he has not yet sold the card. The prior owners made a profit. Kendrick's financial fate, on the card, is uncertain. In order to prove a harm Kendrick could probably obtain appraisals from auction houses. He would demonstrate a harm by showing that the appraised value of the trimmed card is below the appraised value of the PSA 8. I am addressing the merits of the claim just how it may be proven.

[nolemmings]

Thanks for the definition of legal standing. I had no idea--I just like to talk about legal matters with no working understanding of the operative terms.

Your premise is that no past owner of the card can legally sue-- he has no right to a day in court because he no longer owns the card. In my humble opinion, I believe that premise to be false. He can sue, but he likely will not prevail, at least under the facts as we know them, because he cannot prove at least one essential element of his claim (and there also may be affirmative defenses such as SOL). As in virtually any civil action, a Plaintiff must show that a defendant's conduct caused him damage and then attribute some amount to that damage. If you don't you lose, but that doesn't mean you were barred from asking in the first place because you lacked standing. Now if I tried to sue claiming that the whole fraud ordeal negatively impacted me and/or my collection in some measurable way then yes, I would agree that there is insufficient nexus between me and the alleged wrongdoers to provide standing.

A more interesting scenario presents if the buyer of a PSA 5 Wagner were to argue that he overpaid because the market was artificially inflated by the existence of an "8" that turned out to be bogus, or conversely, if the seller of that same PSA 5 argued that he could have sold for more had there been no 8 on the market because his would have been the highest graded. These people would have a colorable claim (if the facts were right and they could prove them) that they had a legally protectible stake or interest and thus have standing. They would probably lose on the standing issue, IMO, but it wouldn't shock me to see a lawyer at least advance the argument.

In sum, current ownership of property does not define exclusive standing in cases like this, again IMO. Had the owner previous to Kendrick sold it to him at a loss and could show that the fraud had something to do with that loss-- a tough row to hoe, no doubt-- then the fact that he no longer owns the card would not prevent him from suing on the basis of standing. Again, we're dealing in hypotheticals and I don;t foresee any lawsuits from past or current players in this melodrama, but stranger things have happened I'm sure.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Sorry to get so heated about this one. I think it is frustration from work bleeding over.

I like the argument about the purchaser of the PSA 5. Who knows.

[nolemmings]

Another two cents. To the poster who asked whether Kendrick would have to show that any loss or diminished value was not attributed to other market conditions I would answer yes. The Plt must (nearly) always show that the damage he claims was caused by Df's conduct, although the evidence needed and the degree of certainty can be contested issues. However, I think there is a good argument that in this case, the Wagner card lives in its own market--that the hobby generally and the overall economy do not have much impact on driving its sales, for the buyer pool consists largely of people who have no great concern about such factors.

Lawyers are often very creative, although maybe not this one. Even if the card has appreciated, particularly if only by some small amount, I could see someone asserting that Kendrick has suffered damage by the now confirmed statements that his Wagner card was trimmed. The argument could be made that the card historically ALWAYS sells for at least x% more upon resale, and that if it doesn't now: 1) it's because of the fraud and 2) the difference is Kendrick's damages-- he should have made more profit. Don't get me wrong, I see this as a tough one and damages cannot be deemed speculative, but I make the point only to show that the more creative ones out there could probably stir up something. Moreover, I also believe that if he can prove any compensatory damages he could also ask for punitive damages-which greatly expands the stakes.

Granted, Kendrick has expressed no interest in selling or concern about this latest Mastro news, and there may be PR and personal reasons why he will just leave this alone, but it's sometimes fun for us on the outside to ponder the possibilities.:)

[nolemmings]

Sorry to get so heated about this one. I think it is frustration from work bleeding over.

No problem. I hear ya, and have been known to be a bit irritable myself (this just in).

[Kenny Cole]

I think all previous owners have standing to sue. And here, if you can prove any detriment whatsoever from the fraud, you are entitled to at least nominal damages, even if you can't prove entitlement to compensatory damages. Since its a tort action, nominal damages for fraud gets you to the jury on punis. Viola!!!

[travrosty]

Thanks for the definition of legal standing. I had no idea--I just like to talk about legal matters with no working understanding of the operative terms.

Your premise is that no past owner of the card can legally sue-- he has no right to a day in court because he no longer owns the card. In my humble opinion, I believe that premise to be false. He can sue, but he likely will not prevail, at least under the facts as we know them, because he cannot prove at least one essential element of his claim (and there also may be affirmative defenses such as SOL). As in virtually any civil action, a Plaintiff must show that a defendant's conduct caused him damage and then attribute some amount to that damage. If you don't you lose, but that doesn't mean you were barred from asking in the first place because you lacked standing. Now if I tried to sue claiming that the whole fraud ordeal negatively impacted me and/or my collection in some measurable way then yes, I would agree that there is insufficient nexus between me and the alleged wrongdoers to provide standing.

A more interesting scenario presents if the buyer of a PSA 5 Wagner were to argue that he overpaid because the market was artificially inflated by the existence of an "8" that turned out to be bogus, or conversely, if the seller of that same PSA 5 argued that he could have sold for more had there been no 8 on the market because his would have been the highest graded. These people would have a colorable claim (if the facts were right and they could prove them) that they had a legally protectible stake or interest and thus have standing. They would probably lose on the standing issue, IMO, but it wouldn't shock me to see a lawyer at least advance the argument.

In sum, current ownership of property does not define exclusive standing in cases like this, again IMO. Had the owner previous to Kendrick sold it to him at a loss and could show that the fraud had something to do with that loss-- a tough row to hoe, no doubt-- then the fact that he no longer owns the card would not prevent him from suing on the basis of standing. Again, we're dealing in hypotheticals and I don;t foresee any lawsuits from past or current players in this melodrama, but stranger things have happened I'm sure.


the woman who won the psa 8 wagner in the treat entertainment/walmart giveaway paid too much windfall taxes on the card when she won it, when in fact, her tax burden would have been much less had the card been properly graded by the people who purportedly gave it an 8 instead of an A to suit their own greedy interests. that is grounds for a lawsuit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think all previous owners have standing to sue. And here, if you can prove any detriment whatsoever from the fraud, you are entitled to at least nominal damages, even if you can't prove entitlement to compensatory damages. Since its a tort action, nominal damages for fraud gets you to the jury on punis. Viola!!!

And if wishes were horses...

[Kenny Cole]

Peter,

I'm not wishing anything. I agree that it would be a difficult case. But I also think that some of the buyers could probably come up with something other than the purchase price which would get you to the jury. Buyer's fee on purchase then private sale, whatever. The capital gains tax issue for the one winner suggested above is an interesting thought.

If you get to the jury on punis then all bets are off. It probably wouldn't cost too much to try either. A couple of depositions and a summary judgment response. Give it to a young lawyer who needs courtroom time and let them run with it.

[nolemmings]

It probably wouldn't cost too much to try either. A couple of depositions and a summary judgment response. Give it to a young lawyer who needs courtroom time and let them run with it.
I dunno Kenny. Given the Dfs I could see a lot of paper thrown around and hurdles tossed in the way, valid or not. Besides, given the upside and potential notoriety, wouldn't you want to tackle it yourself? :)

[barrysloate]

the woman who won the psa 8 wagner in the treat entertainment/walmart giveaway paid too much windfall taxes on the card when she won it, when in fact, her tax burden would have been much less had the card been properly graded by the people who purportedly gave it an 8 instead of an A to suit their own greedy interests. that is grounds for a lawsuit.

That transaction took place before it was graded, I believe.

[Kenny Cole]

I dunno Kenny. Given the Dfs I could see a lot of paper thrown around and hurdles tossed in the way, valid or not. Besides, given the upside and potential notoriety, wouldn't you want to tackle it yourself? :)

Todd,

Uh, no. I am well past the stage where I care about potential notoriety and have other cases which probably have more potential upside. :) As far as I am concerned this is a theoretical issue only. Thus, the hungry young lawyer angle seems perfect to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,

I'm not wishing anything. I agree that it would be a difficult case. But I also think that some of the buyers could probably come up with something other than the purchase price which would get you to the jury. Buyer's fee on purchase then private sale, whatever. The capital gains tax issue for the one winner suggested above is an interesting thought.

If you get to the jury on punis then all bets are off. It probably wouldn't cost too much to try either. A couple of depositions and a summary judgment response. Give it to a young lawyer who needs courtroom time and let them run with it.

So Jim Copeland pays 125K, sells for 461K less Sotheby's cut, and he has a fraud claim that gets him to a jury for punitive damages. OK. If you say so. :) Or Brian Siegel who bought for $1M plus and sold for $2M plus. Yeah, he would make an excellent fraud plaintiff.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That transaction took place before it was graded, I believe.

No it was graded, Gretzky sold it to Walmart who then had a promotion.

[Kenny Cole]

So Jim Copeland pays 125K, sells for 461K less Sotheby's cut, and he has a fraud claim that gets him to a jury for punitive damages. OK. If you say so. :) Or Brian Siegel who bought for $1M plus and sold for $2M plus. Yeah, he would make an excellent fraud plaintiff.

But that wasn't the issue. The issue was whether or not you could get a claim to the jury. IMO, you can. Now you are dodging that question and raising a completely different issue. You must be a defense lawyer. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

But that wasn't the issue. The issue was whether or not you could get a claim to the jury. IMO, you can. Now you are dodging that question and raising a completely different issue. You must be a defense lawyer. :)

And in now saying it is a theoretical issue only you must be backpedaling from your initial post where you were much more enthusiastic. An appropriately chastened plaintiff's lawyer.:)

[Kenny Cole]

And in now saying it is a theoretical issue only you must be backpedaling from your initial post where you were much more enthusiastic. An appropriately chastened plaintiff's lawyer.:)

Peter,

It has always been theoretical to me. Since I disagreed about the standing issue, I started thinking about it. That doesn't mean that I want the case. As I said, that is a case for a younger lawyer who needs trial time to make.

But, since you so adroitly avoided the issue, I assume that you now agree there is at least a "theoretical" possibility that it can get to the jury. I'm sure that is a difficult concession for a defense lawyer to make, even if the concession is only implicit. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I concede nothing I cant imagine a colorable harm any prior buyer could establish.

[nolemmings]

Defense lawyers always acknowledge that a case could get to a jury--they just call it the idiot judge factor :)

[Kenny Cole]

Run, run like the wind ...

[Rich Klein]

That transaction took place before it was graded, I believe.


Barry: That card was graded by 1991 -- and I know this because I was quoted in New York Magazine about what I would think this card would sell for. Trust me, my guess was less than half of what the final selling price was. But the woman who won that card won that card circa 1995-96 and that was after 1991 and thus the card was graded when she won that card. Just an FYI for the timeline.

And that is not because I have such a great memory, instead I was writing one of my rambling columns for Sports Collectors Daily and googled Rich Klein Beckett analyst and that quote popped up.

Regards
Rich

[deadballfreaK]

Mastro is a criminal. Doesn't matter one iota if the cards increased in value. He set out with an intent to defraud for personal gain. But he has a lot of money he has swindled people out of. He'll get a great defense and probably wind up at home wearing an ankle bracelet for a year. Some stupid, poor slob who has a bag of weed will rot for 20 years. Justice in this country is what you can afford.

[teetwoohsix]

Mastro is a criminal. Doesn't matter one iota if the cards increased in value. He set out with an intent to defraud for personal gain. But he has a lot of money he has swindled people out of. He'll get a great defense and probably wind up at home wearing an ankle bracelet for a year. Some stupid, poor slob who has a bag of weed will rot for 20 years. Justice in this country is what you can afford.

Great post, and unfortunatley probably true.

If he does go to prison,it will be a cushy federal prison where they have tennis courts or golf courses, and have movie nights with popcorn and soft drinks. Maybe even hang out with Bernie.

" Justice in this country is what you can afford" - great way to sum things up!

Sincerely, Clayton

[ls7plus]

Maybe, and if he did he might be right. I don't condone the fraud with the trimming but it's still the best looking Wags in the hobby. I am still undecided if I think it's value has held. It certainly might have. It's hard to say.....

This certainly isn't any kind of surprise to anyone. The card is in fact the best appearing Wagner by a wide margin, and its mystique won't change at all. I believe most of the owners of the card, if not absolutely all of them, already knew what Mastro recently confirmed. My humble prediction is that it will continue to rise in value as it has habitually done, and will change hands for $50 million or more within a quarter century or so (that's in the vicinity of 12% compounded annually, a rate a top flight collectible is easily capable of in most collectible fields).

Best wishes,

Larry

[barrysloate]

No it was graded, Gretzky sold it to Walmart who then had a promotion.

Thanks Peter. After I posted I was thinking maybe I was wrong. I know it sold raw in the Copeland Sale, so it must have been graded right after that. My error.

And thanks Rich also. My memory is not as crisp as it once was.

[Leon]

Mastro is a criminal. Doesn't matter one iota if the cards increased in value. He set out with an intent to defraud for personal gain. But he has a lot of money he has swindled people out of. He'll get a great defense and probably wind up at home wearing an ankle bracelet for a year. Some stupid, poor slob who has a bag of weed will rot for 20 years. Justice in this country is what you can afford.

I agree with your sentiment but really? You think he'll get an ankle bracelet when he is trying to plea for 30 months or less behind bars AND IT'S not being accepted. And now the plea has been turned down twice by the judge. No, I think on that aspect, you are incorrect. He will do some time, we just don't know how much. Personally it would have been nice to see some kind of restitution, somehow. Maybe take monies and use it for charity if the victims can't be identified easily.

[travrosty]

Thanks Peter. After I posted I was thinking maybe I was wrong. I know it sold raw in the Copeland Sale, so it must have been graded right after that. My error.

And thanks Rich also. My memory is not as crisp as it once was.

it was graded by 1991 because it was exhibited at the 91 national in anaheim and it was in its psa holder. i saw it there behind the velvet rope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thanks Peter. After I posted I was thinking maybe I was wrong. I know it sold raw in the Copeland Sale, so it must have been graded right after that. My error.

And thanks Rich also. My memory is not as crisp as it once was.

Right, Gretzky and McNall had it graded. Walmart bought it next for a promotion but the woman who won the promotion had to sell because of the taxes and Gidwitz won it at auction.

Kenny, Walmart would be a good client, maybe they are interested in pursuing a fraud claim. :D