Very Early Baseball Game 1860s CDV

[Leon]

Was anyone watching this?


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160992586726&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:3160#ht_804wt_1271




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[Ease]

Sorry nothing to add, but I bet that whole deal ended quickly after someone hit an opposite field foul ball into one of those windows. :)

[Jason19th]

I was keeping an eye on this. I think that its a very neat item but I would date it alot closer to 1870 or later. Maybe a photo expert can help out but I don't think that this type of image was even possible until the later 1860's

[Jeffrompa]

I was watching it also . Is this the famous Rounders one ?

[drc]

It looks to be 1860s. It was very difficult to photograph outdoor game action back them, but I've seen 2 or 3 examples from the Civil War era.

[brianp-beme]

To me the players definitely appear to be staged in various fielding poses so as to minimize any blurring caused by movement.

As a side note, the two lads with their arms stretched to the sky seem to be rather awkwardly anticipating a pop up to the infield.

Brian

[drc]

It was difficult to photographically capture movement back then. Which is why all the Old Judge poses are obviously staged. And why you never see a photo of a star like King Kelly or Cap Anson in action during a real game.

Posed or not, I think it's a great and rare image. And I bet it was taken during a game.

[barrysloate]

Probably 1860's and a really special image. It's rare to see a game in progress with such great detail.

[GaryPassamonte]

The ebay CdV was made somewhere between 1867 and 1871 based upon the photographers, most probably from 1867-1869. I was the underbidder on this lot and wasn't surprised at the price, given the rarity of "action" baseball CdVs. I can come up with less than 10 I know of. Here's the only one I have. It dates from 1864-1866 because of the tax stamp on the reverse. Hoboken NJ is written on the reverse.

[Leon]

Thanks for the info guys..........One of my top 5 impulse buys....


http://luckeycards.com/phunc1860sphoto.JPG

[atx840]

Nice Leon..sounds like you got a true gem.

[Ease]

Nice Leon..sounds like you got a true gem.

x100, killer "impulse buy." You've got a nice piece of history there.

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

Nice pickup, Leon.

[Paul S]

Thanks for the info guys..........One of my top 5 impulse buys....

Congrats on an excellent impulse. Can I ask what the other four are?

[Leon]

Congrats on an excellent impulse. Can I ask what the other four are?

"5" was off the top of my head. But others could be a Chickering Imperial Cabinet of Boston I eventually sold, my 1869 peck and snyder, T206 Mullaney scrap and the T206 Matty proof......though those cards could fluctuate with others they were not on my list of cards to get when I acquired them....

[rjackson44]

great image leon just terriffic:)

[triwak]

Terrific card! And I love the way its new owner slyly "outed" his good fortune!! :)

[GaryPassamonte]

Leon- I never would have guessed! Great pick up. I'm a little in shock right now.

[Leon]

Terrific card! And I love the way its new owner slyly "outed" his good fortune!! :)

I was kind of peeking from behind a bush just in case I really blew it. I probably over paid, and that was my max bid I got it at, but I just love the look of it.

[Leon]

Leon- I never would have guessed! Great pick up. I'm a little in shock right now.

Sorry Gary. On ebay ya never know if someone sees something or not. It is a bit out of my normal realm but, as I just said, I really like the image....I wasn't even going to bid on it....but literally with a few minutes left I decided to bid...

[GaryPassamonte]

I'm glad you got it, Leon. You will always know there is another good home willing to take it off your hands, if you lose interest.

[drc]

I think the purchase price was reasonable. I remember another 1860s game action photo selling for over $3,000 years back, and at the time I thought it was undervalued if anything.

The game image on Leon's new CDV is hard to beat. Lots of detail and character. Other 1860s game action photos I have seen, though bigger, showed the game at a further distance and with less detail. One showed the inside grounds of a Civil War fort, with soldiers marching in front and a game going on in the background. Fascinating overall no doubt, but the game was in the distance. So it's very possible yours is the nicest and most detailed image wise of the game.

Whether you collect 1860s CDVs or Greta Garbo press photos, the value and desirability is much based on the quality of the image itself-- clarity, character, pose, content, artistry--, and I think the image on the CDV is grade A. There's a reason Ken Burns used it in his book and I assume the documentary.

[cliftons8]

This may be one of the best baseball items to show up on ebay in a long time.
Great item and awesome pickup.

[JeremyW]

I was watching it & figured Gary would be in on it. I agree with Gary that it dates to 1866-67 at the earliest. The image is fantastic. I think what kept me from bidding was that it depicts kids instead of adults. Nevertheless, very nice pick-up Leon.

[gnaz01]

Congrats Leon, very cool piece indeed :cool:

[Runscott]

Very, very interesting.

French & Sawyer primarily created stereo views - 'Googling' :) will yield many good examples. The image used in the Burns documentary (and also shown in the ebay listing) is obviously one side of a stereoview. It's too bad we can't see the complete stereoview, including the photographer markings, but that's okay.

Leon's cdv is very interesting for a number of reasons. First - there's no reason to doubt it's legit:

the Burns SV image is rounded at the top and the scan appears to have not been shortened at the sides (we're looking at most/all of the SV image)
Leon's cdv print is WIDER that the Burns SV print. The photo was taken with the intent of using it to create a stereoview, so there is garbage at the left that had to be cropped from the SV print
The 'garbage' had to be left in for Leon's cdv print, in order to cover the entire mount
So, basically - the photographer took a negative that was intended to be used for a stereoview and printed a wider version of the image for Leon's cdv. Leon's cdv print also had to be trimmed at the top and bottom to fit the mount.


I can't tell if Leon's image is the same (or the other) side of the Burns stereoview, but I'm sure Chris could figure it out for us :)

Another thing that interests me about the Burns/Leon stereoview/cdv: When looking for a good 1860's stereoview for a test I completed last month, I found that many of the 1860's SV's were created with both images printed on a single sheet of paper. This led me to believe that possibly stereo views were created using a single camera with two lenses, and somehow creating a single negative with both images. Not sure how that could be possible, but now I'm fairly sure it wasn't how they were created, since the photographer obviously had stereoview negatives with images that were wider than the final prints.

Another interesting thing about this example is that it sheds light on the SACO Brooklyn Atlantics cdv, but I won't pollute this thread with that stuff.

[Leon]

Nice post Scott but the photographer is French & Sawyer per the back of the cdv I have. Great write up though and much appreciated. And after looking at the way you did those pictures in your post it really sheds light on how these were made. Very good job.....

[Runscott]

Nice post Scott but the photographer is French & Sawyer per the back of the cdv I have. Great write up though and much appreciated. And after looking at the way you did those pictures in your post it really sheds light on how these were made. Very good job.....

Thanks Leon - don't know why I keep thinking 'Green'.

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks for the info guys..........One of my top 5 impulse buys....


http://luckeycards.com/phunc1860sphoto.JPG


Awesome snare, Leon ! Congrats !!

Has anyone noticed how close the pitcher is to the batter ? What in the hell is the 3rd, 2B, and 1b doing with their hands ?? Is this baseball or cricket or something unique ? (My kids and I have invented some wild variations of baseball, so just curious what you guys think they fielders are doing with their arms over their heads ?)
#baffled

[packs]

I wish my recess was as cool as this one. There's just so much going on in this image. I love everything about it. Especially the fans along the schoolhouse.

[Runscott]

It's a posed photo - the players are arranged so that all the fielders can fit in the photo. The arrangement in Leon's is pretty good, especially compared to this posed shot of mine:

[pete zouras]

nice pickup Leon

[Exhibitman]

outstanding