View Full Version : Opinions on Ruth please!
Sean1125
03-23-2013, 02:17 PM
Please/Thank you.
http://i47.tinypic.com/jg639u.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/v2wpk3.jpg
thetruthisoutthere
03-23-2013, 02:28 PM
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it Coach's Corner crap?
Sean1125
03-23-2013, 02:31 PM
the guy drove from out of state to sell me a collection this was an after thought ... this is really that bad? Can you pm me why?
thetruthisoutthere
03-23-2013, 02:40 PM
the guy drove from out of state to sell me a collection this was an after thought ... this is really that bad? Can you pm me why?
Where should I start?
MooseDog
03-23-2013, 03:52 PM
To start with, the fact that there is no postmark is a GIANT red flag for a piece that ostensibly was put in the mail.
Sean1125
03-23-2013, 03:56 PM
To start with, the fact that there is no postmark is a GIANT red flag for a piece that ostensibly was put in the mail.
Makes perfect sense thank you.
packs
03-23-2013, 04:31 PM
Looks like some feathering in the ink. That can happen when new ink is applied to old paper and can be a tip off.
RichardSimon
03-23-2013, 07:05 PM
Look at how the ink wells up at the bottom of the t and right after the start of the u,,, whoever signed it (and I don't mean the Babe) was squeezing the life out of the pen at those points.
David Atkatz
03-23-2013, 08:24 PM
Ruth's signature changed over time. There are many indications that the PC is a forgery, but it's also a forgery of a later-than-1923 style signature. Even if it were a better forgery, it's wrong for the time.
And the card is way too "busy." (partially typed, lines hand-drawn, etc.) It makes no sense. If Ruth sent the PC (which, as mentioned above is NOT postmarked), why would he put in lines labelled "Name" and "Address"?
earlywynnfan
03-23-2013, 09:25 PM
As if you don't have enough question marks, I'll raise another: why were two different typewriters used??
Ken
thecatspajamas
03-23-2013, 10:14 PM
To me, the message on the card sounds like the forger setting up the story for why the card is not postmarked: "It was mailed in an envelope with the tickets mentioned in the note. That's why it isn't postmarked."
If that were indeed the case though, why would a postage-paid card be used for the simple message? A typed letter on paper would be more the norm, or even the same thing typed on a blank index card. No reason to throw away money on postage for the card inside the envelope that would never actually be mailed.
deadballfreaK
03-23-2013, 11:21 PM
My 2 cents worth. Does this fit Babe Ruth? I don't think he penned caring thoughtful letters. He might meet a stranger on the street and give 'em a couple of tickets or a hundred dollar bill. He would probably give you the shirt off his back, but typewritten messages? no
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 06:14 AM
Have attached a 1921 early Ruth to illustrate the difference between his early and later signatures , As stated previously in this thread the 1923 signature more closely matches later Ruth signatures. BUT easy to confirm existence of a Mr Hagenlocker and his address in 1923.
In the meantime disregarding the lack of postmark (sometimes it happens) Where there other non-hall of fame autographs or commons in the group when it was offered ?
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jim@stinsonsports.com
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 06:44 AM
Incidently the One cent postcard became a 2 cent postcard from 1917-1919 due to WW I , after that it became 1 cent again , From 1920-1924 it was again 1 cent so the 1923 date "fits" that 4 year window, from 1925-1928 it was raised temporarily to 2 cents.
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Mr. Zipper
03-24-2013, 07:37 AM
To me, the message on the card sounds like the forger setting up the story for why the card is not postmarked: "It was mailed in an envelope with the tickets mentioned in the note. That's why it isn't postmarked."
My thoughts exactly.
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 07:52 AM
There was a CHRISTIAN (or Chrestian) PAUL HAGENLOCHER residing in Philadelphia in 1923. He was a 46 year old Stock / Investment broker. His address was on Mt. Vernon St, Southside Philly. He was at the same address in 1930 but by then was working as a bank teller a natural transition after the stock market crash.
Since his address does NOT match the GPC and the GPC has a "Room #" on Chestnut St, I will guess that was where he worked. If its the same guy being an "investment broker" in 1923 would have given Ruth several thousand good reasons to send free tickets to a ball game. Not conclusive but getting there .....:)
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jim@stinsonsports.com
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 08:48 AM
The address 1328 Chestnut St , Philadelphia is a very large, very big, very old building that even today sits across from the huge WACHOVIA bank complex in what was in 1923 one of the financial & investment banking "hubs" in Philadelphia. A place where an investment broker named C. Paul Hagenlocher MIGHT have worked......:)
Coincidence ? Anyone have any theorys to add to the mix ?
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jim@stinsonsports.com
Greenmonster
03-24-2013, 09:13 AM
I certainly don't have an opinion about the signature itself but I have been to a lot of postcard shows and have seen addressed, unused one cent postcards. It's possible that the postcard was already addressed yet unused and the note on the back was addressed to Hagenlocher to match the address already on the front. Note two different typewriter's for the note and address.
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 09:25 AM
I certainly don't have an opinion about the signature itself but I have been to a lot of postcard shows and have seen addressed, unused one cent postcards. It's possible that the postcard was already addressed yet unused and the note on the back was addressed to Hagenlocher to match the address already on the front. Note two different typewriter's for the note and address.
I thought of that too someone might have discovered a cache of pre-addressed GPC's and used them to forge autographs on.....but the point I was trying to make is that at least I didn't sit there like "CAESAR" and give it an automatic THUMBS UP or THUMBS DOWN in three seconds...lol, I did a little research in between...:)
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jim@stinsonsports.com
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 09:36 AM
Note too that on the FRONT of the postcard , the same typewritter was used to write the "Yours Truly" and the words "Name _______________", "Address _____________" as the typewriter that wrote the person's address on the reverse. Certain letters indent the exact same way. That portion of the front was printed with the same typewritter
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jim@stinsonsports.com
And that is why many of us consider you the absolute best in the business Jim. Thank you for that.
thetruthisoutthere
03-24-2013, 09:42 AM
I thought of that too someone might have discovered a cache of pre-addressed GPC's and used them to forge autographs on.....but the point I was trying to make is that at least I didn't sit there like "CAESAR" and give it an automatic THUMBS UP or THUMBS DOWN in three seconds...lol, I did a little research in between...:)
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jim@stinsonsports.com
I gave it an automatic "Thumbs Down."
If you're going to call me out, then address me.
Greenmonster
03-24-2013, 09:44 AM
I thought of that too someone might have discovered a cache of pre-addressed GPC's and used them to forge autographs on.....but the point I was trying to make is that at least I didn't sit there like "CAESAR" and give it an automatic THUMBS UP or THUMBS DOWN in three seconds...lol, I did a little research in between...:)
_________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
Appreciated
Greenmonster
03-24-2013, 09:47 AM
And that is why many of us consider you the absolute best in the business Jim. Thank you for that.
Steve..thank you...after 35 years I was bound to learn something!:D
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 09:56 AM
I gave it an automatic "Thumbs Down."
If you're going to call me out, then address me.
Chris , I am still learning even after 35 years. I was not refering to you specifically and wasn't even paying attention to your post until you just mentioned it.
Calling you out ?? are you serious ? :confused:
Usually when I do that its after a few beers and when I'm OUTSIDE of the joint.....:):):):):)
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jim@stinsonsports.com
thetruthisoutthere
03-24-2013, 10:00 AM
Chris , I am still learning even after 35 years. I was not refering to you specifically and wasn't even paying attention to your post until you just mentioned it.
Calling you out ?? are you serious ? :confused:
Usually when I do that its after a few beers and when I'm OUTSIDE of the joint.....:):):):):)
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jim@stinsonsports.com
Your reply is appreciated, Jim.
I, too, learn something new every day.
JimStinson
03-24-2013, 10:24 AM
Your reply is appreciated, Jim.
I, too, learn something new every day.
I do agree now, that its a very creative forgery, I just took the "long route" to arrive at that determination..
But I was curious too about the addressed portion and the name , as that information would come in handy to me (and others) down the road, because more than likely if there was one "pre-addressed" GPC in that format there are dozens.
___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com
It is good to sometimes remember that everyone posting (at least so far) seems to be on the same team. None of us want fraud or bad items in our hobby. We are all fighting the same cause. Peace, groovy and flower power....
travrosty
03-24-2013, 02:03 PM
I gave it an automatic "Thumbs Down."
If you're going to call me out, then address me.
chris thinks everybody is talking about him all the time.
thetruthisoutthere
03-24-2013, 02:27 PM
chris thinks everybody is talking about him all the time.
And Travis thinks that Mueller is "Da Man."