What NY Yankee should be in the HOF?

[quinnsryche]

I know there are alot already, but what Yankee should be in the Hall of Fame that isn't? Leave out Jeter, Mariano, Randy Johnson and Joe Torre as they will all be in for sure. Provide whatever stats or history to plead your case if you like. I would like to see Bob Meusel and Urban Shocker in.

[jthorst75]

Easy, Thurman Munson. No stats/history needed.

[chris6net]

Easy, Thurman Munson. No stats/history needed.

As someone who saw Munson play during his whole career I don,t know how you can say Easy for him to be a HOFer. He only had about 5 really good years and falls short of being a Hofer

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bob Meusel played 11 years batted .309 with 1600 plus hits. Statistically on baseball reference he is rated the 82nd best rightfielder of all time. Why would you like to see him in.

[Kenny Cole]

I would be more inclined to say Urban Shocker than Munson or Meusel, but I think that the Yankees are already vastly overrepresented.

[Al C.risafulli]

Last I checked, there were 13 third basemen in the Hall of Fame, and Graig Nettles was a better player than several of them. Nettles played in an era when offensive stats were depressed in general, and he was one of the game's better offensive players. His defense was magnificent, and if his career hadn't overlapped Brooks Robinson's, he would have won far more than one Gold Glove.

Ultimately he gets a raw deal because his career doesn't include the kind of cheap stats that most HOF voters look for (high batting average, number of awards, etc), but statistically, he's one of the best players to ever play his position.

-Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

I would not vote for Shocker, but (for once) I agree with Kenny that he is the most qualified of the three. Munson was already in decline in terms of power when he died and I don't think his career numbers, even if he hung on for a few more years, would have been worthy of the HOF. Plus, you just can't credit him for what he might have done. Accordingly, he never received more than 15 percent of the vote.

PS I think we romanticize him because he was a Yankee, had a tough personality, and died prematurely. But he ended up with just over 100 HR and 1500 hits. That just doesn't get you into the Hall.

[Jlighter]

Urban Shocker should get in for his name alone.:)

I think Mattingly could be considered, not winning a championship really hurts him.

[Batter67up]

Meusel, Maris, and Munson are all good choices.

[Jlighter]

I would not vote for Shocker, but (for once) I agree with Kenny that he is the most qualified of the three. Munson was already in decline in terms of power when he died and I don't think his career numbers, even if he hung on for a few more years, would have been worthy of the HOF. Plus, you just can't credit him for what he might have done. Accordingly, he never received more than 15 percent of the vote.

PS I think we romanticize him because he was a Yankee, had a tough personality, and died prematurely. But he ended up with just over 100 HR and 1500 hits. That just doesn't get you into the Hall.

Valid points. His Postseason numbers are outstanding though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Last I checked, there were 13 third basemen in the Hall of Fame, and Graig Nettles was a better player than several of them. Nettles played in an era when offensive stats were depressed in general, and he was one of the game's better offensive players. His defense was magnificent, and if his career hadn't overlapped Brooks Robinson's, he would have won far more than one Gold Glove.

Ultimately he gets a raw deal because his career doesn't include the kind of cheap stats that most HOF voters look for (high batting average, number of awards, etc), but statistically, he's one of the best players to ever play his position.

-Al

Nettles should get in on the basis of fighting Reggie Jackson at the team's victory party.

[triwak]

I think Mattingly could be considered, not winning a championship really hurts him.

I kind of agree about Mattingly. Borderline. Appears the writers won't do it, but someday the Vet's committee might.

[Iron Horse]

Donnie baseball, Mr. Mattingly belongs in the Hall. He could do it all and for a span of 5-6 years he was amongst the best hitters in either league. A class act, great hitter, and lets not forget his glove work at first. If it wasn't for his back who knows...
I will put a vote in for Nettles as well.

[Al C.risafulli]

Nettles should get in on the basis of fighting Reggie Jackson at the team's victory party.

That was THE BEST.

BTW, compare Mattingly's career numbers with Kirby Puckett's.

-Al

[T206Fan]

Can Elston Howard get a little love for the hall?

12 time allstar
2 gold gloves
1 mvp
4 World series titles

[Peter_Spaeth]

That was THE BEST.

BTW, compare Mattingly's career numbers with Kirby Puckett's.

-Al

Mattingly started younger and had a second half of his career where he was a shadow of his former self, Puckett was cut down in his prime, I think that's the difference even though the stats are pretty similar.

[packs]

I think Mattingly is a HOFer too. I feel like a real HOFer was the best player in the game at some point in their career. There are plenty of HOFers who never were. But Mattingly was that player. That makes him a HOFer in my opinion even if he didn't hit the milestone numbers. For example, Puckett and Sandberg were never the best player in the league but they both got in.

I don't think saying Mattingly was a shadow of his former self is true. His 1992 and 1993 seasons were decent years and he was playing really well in 1994 before the strike. The guy was still the best first baseman in the league and he hit 417 his only time around October.

I also think Carl Mays is a HOFer but I'm not sure if he's really considered a Yankee. Although he did have his best seasons with the Yankees.

Of the recently retired Yankees I think Bernie Williams and Jorge Posada are HOFers too. Ichiro wears 51 because of Bernie. That tells you something.

[Jlighter]

Can Elston Howard get a little love for the hall?

12 time allstar
2 gold gloves
1 mvp
4 World series titles

Pretty sure it's 6 World Series.

His stats really don't help, but the historical context of being the first black Yankee gives him a big bump.

[Nashvol]

George Steinbrenner

[chris6net]

George Steinbrenner

Is a criminal!

[Kenny Cole]

Is a criminal!

Yes he was. :)

[MVSNYC]

Sorry, but Randy Johnson and "Yankee" in the same sentence just never sounded right to me.

[kmac32]

Carl Mays

[t206blogcom]

My vote is for Roger Maris.

[E93]

Let's have a Yankee moratorium for 25 years.
JimB

[CW]

Last I checked, there were 13 third basemen in the Hall of Fame, and Graig Nettles was a better player than several of them. Nettles played in an era when offensive stats were depressed in general, and he was one of the game's better offensive players. His defense was magnificent, and if his career hadn't overlapped Brooks Robinson's, he would have won far more than one Gold Glove.

Ultimately he gets a raw deal because his career doesn't include the kind of cheap stats that most HOF voters look for (high batting average, number of awards, etc), but statistically, he's one of the best players to ever play his position.

-Al

He was the man when it came to robbing hitters of shots like this one....

[oldjudge]

Steinbrenner, whether you like him or not, deserves to be in the HOF. As a Yankee fan I appreciate what he did for the team. His sons, on the other hand, are a joke.

[mets41]

if steinbrenner ever makes it to the hof, I'll quit baseball. and who'd ever want to root for the yankees (only the fillies are lower than the yankees on my rooting list).

[Ronnie73]

My votes are for Don Mattingly and Paul O'Neill. I enjoyed watching them both at bat and on the field.

[cardaholic]

Tommy John.

[Runscott]

I like Mattingly.

I also like Maris, realizing that he doesn't fit the HOF's 'career' requirements for number of HOF-caliber years, but I don't think Koufax did either, at least not any more than Mattingly did.

[Mark]

Billy Martin had a pretty impressive career, winning in Minnesota, Detroit, New York, and Oakland. The hall is OK without any of the other names I've read about here.

[drc]

If Mattingly coaches well.

For the record, I am the opposite of a Yankees fan. Though agree they've had a multitude of fine and admirable players.

[deadballfreaK]

I used to live half a mile from Don Mattingly's walled in mansion. Great player, nice guy, local star, but HOF? I don't think so, but a good managerial career and he will be there. I don't see any slighted Yankees. They already have enough advantages getting in.

[deadballfreaK]

BTW, I can't quote this as gospel, but I know a guy who was in Donny Ballgame's class in HS and he says Don was plagued by a couple of stupid bullies, but to his credit he didn't let it stop him.

[deadballfreaK]

Upon further review Nettles has a case, but he should have retired about three years earlier. Seems to be a bias against 3B. Santo finally made it after they waited for him to die. Ken Boyer should be in. Nettles was a defensive whiz and had some pop at the plate.

[Buythatcard]

Roger Maris 61 Home Runs - No steroids!

[AMBST95]

I don't think there is a Yankee not in the HOF that should be. The players mentioned above all had a few good years but over their careers struggled. In addition, if you put those same players on the Royals, they never garner the attention that you're giving to them now.

[HexsHeroes]

.

Not intended as a slam against the Yankees, as it actually is intended for all teams with an above average percentage of the HOF population.

One of my pet peeves is that that some player performances (stats) have been influenced by playing with teams stocked with good/great players. While true the individual ballplayer had to perform, or be gone, having talented ballplayers hitting before and after you does influence the opportunities an opposing pitcher presents to you as a hitter. The opportunities presented defensively are possibly influenced by having quality pitching, and quality pitching likely influenced by having qualify defenders. The 1927 NY Yankees were an outstanding team. But I have to believe that if you had removed the two best hitters and one best pitcher from that team, while they would still have been a very good team, fewer of the remaining very good players would have made it into the HOF. Just my opinion. That is why I have a softspot for outstanding ballplayers who played for less than brilliant teams over a period of years. I feel they may have had less opportunities or ideal situations inwhich to shine, but they shone never the less with what was given them.

Personally, I feel that it is not enough to say that a player was among the best in the league, year in and year out. If that were the case, Jack Morris (among others), would have been in the HOF years ago. For me, if the player evaluated cannot be considered among the top 50% already in the HOF, then it is a no for HOF induction. I realize this completely dismisses the characteristics of the game during the particular era a ballplayer played in, and therefore is a particularly harsh measure, but I believe the HOF is for the greats of the game; not for the above average but not necessarily great. If a ballplayer cannot be considered among the best ever, then HOF is not for him.

[kcohen]

The top of the list IMO should be Allie Reynolds with an 8 year run of brilliance in a Yankee uniform. .630 career winning percentage, pitched in 6 WS with 7-2 record and 4 saves.

Can't understand why he isn't in.

[npa589]

.

Not intended as a slam against the yankees, as it actually is intended for all teams with an above average percentage of the hof population.

One of my pet peeves is that that some player performances (stats) have been influenced by playing with teams stocked with good/great players. While true the individual ballplayer had to perform, or be gone, having talented ballplayers hitting before and after you does influence the opportunities an opposing pitcher presents to you as a hitter. The opportunities presented defensively are possibly influenced by having quality pitching, and quality pitching likely influenced by having qualify defenders. The 1927 ny yankees were an outstanding team. But i have to believe that if you had removed the two best hitters and one best pitcher from that team, while they would still have been a very good team, fewer of the remaining very good players would have made it into the hof. Just my opinion. That is why i have a softspot for outstanding ballplayers who played for less than brilliant teams over a period of years. I feel they may have had less opportunities or ideal situations inwhich to shine, but they shone never the less with what was given them.


+1

I thought about offering an optional way of looking at this, and I guess I am now... saying I think a better question to ask is which Yankee HOF'ers should NOT be in the hall of fame? Let's say if the same players played with the Cubs for example, or the Expos...

For example...had Joe Gordon played for someone else, I doubt he ever gets in. He got a maximum of 28.5% from the BBWAA during his eligibility pre- veterans committee.

.

[bigtrain]

I was a big fan of Mattingly and Munson. Both played like HoFers in their prime years but didn't have enough of them or the longevity to get my vote. It kind of irks me because I don't think that Fisk was a pimple on Munson's rear but that's an argument for another day. If Nettles hit .268 instead of .248 he's a slam dunk. Terrific fielder, 390 homers. I would vote for Allie Reynolds, 2 no-hitters in one season plus .630 winning percentage but he played for the great Yankee teams of the fifties so his wins are somewhat inflated. His pre-Yankee record with the Indians was not much.

[dabigyankeeman]

Nettles. His glove was almost the equal to Brooks. He could hit home runs. The guy was great.

[jhs5120]

In order of merit

1. George Steinbrenner - Like him or hate him, he changed the game and created a dynasty.
2. Craig Nettles
3. Thurman Munson
4. Roger Maris
5. Elston Howard
6. Don Mattingly
7. Tommy John
8. Billy Martin

[JimStinson]

Billy Martin had a pretty impressive career, winning in Minnesota, Detroit, New York, and Oakland. The hall is OK without any of the other names I've read about here.

+1 , BILLY MARTIN ...best manager day in day out I ever saw. Made winning teams out of losing teams everywhere he went ! Not just NYC, Also should be in the Boxing Hall of Fame :)
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[packs]

Good players are good players. I don't buy the thinking that some players are only in the HOF because they played for the Yankees. You'd have to hold being on a good team against every HOFer if you're going to hold it against a Yankee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good players are good players. I don't buy the thinking that some players are only in the HOF because they played for the Yankees. You'd have to hold being on a good team against every HOFer if you're going to hold it against a Yankee.

I think the Yankee factor got Joe Gordon in. Does he really get in with the same puny stats playing for the Browns?

[packs]

Yes. He missed prime years due to the war and according to Baseball Reference he is the 16th best second baseman to ever play the game. He got elected over 30 years after his death. It's not like it was a Frankie Frisch situation.

[tcdyess]

All of them :D

[glchen]

I think the Yankee factor got Joe Gordon in. Does he really get in with the same puny stats playing for the Browns?

I still don't know how Joe Gordon won the AL MVP in 1942 over Ted Williams even though Williams won the Triple Crown, and basically led the league in practically all offensive categories that year.

[mattsey9]

I think the Yankee factor got Joe Gordon in. Does he really get in with the same puny stats playing for the Browns?

One of the big digs against Ron Santo was that he never made the playoffs. So it can work both ways.

[cyseymour]

Last I checked, there were 13 third basemen in the Hall of Fame, and Graig Nettles was a better player than several of them. Nettles played in an era when offensive stats were depressed in general, and he was one of the game's better offensive players. His defense was magnificent, and if his career hadn't overlapped Brooks Robinson's, he would have won far more than one Gold Glove.

Ultimately he gets a raw deal because his career doesn't include the kind of cheap stats that most HOF voters look for (high batting average, number of awards, etc), but statistically, he's one of the best players to ever play his position.

-Al

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes. He missed years due to the war and according to Baseball Reference he is the 16th best second baseman to ever play the game. He got elected over 30 years after his death. It's not like it was a Frankie Frisch situation.

He only missed two years. He hit .268 with 1500 plus hits. His closest comparables are Bret Boone, Jose Valentin and Bill Nicholson.

The writers who saw him play obviously thought he was HOF material.
Hall of Fame
1945 BBWAA ( 0.4%)
1955 BBWAA ( 0.4%)
1956 BBWAA ( 2.1%)
1958 BBWAA ( 4.1%)
1960 BBWAA ( 4.1%)
1962 BBWAA ( 2.5%)
1964 BBWAA (14.9%)
1964 Run Off ( 0.5%)
1966 BBWAA (10.3%)
1967 BBWAA (22.6%)
1967 Run Off ( 4.2%)
1968 BBWAA (27.2%)
1969 BBWAA (28.5%)
1970 BBWAA (26.3%)

[packs]

The two years he missed are on average the best statistical years a player has, ages 29 and 30.

Of the 19 HOF second basemen Gordon has a better WAR than 9 of them, 10 if you count Bucky Harris and 11 if you consider Jeff Kent a future HOFer.

That puts him in the top 10 all time amongst HOF second baseman. That's not a puny career.

[tcdyess]

As big a Yankee fan as I am, I'm not really sure anyone else deserves to be in the HOF except one....

The Boss!!! Like him or hate him, you can not deny what he has done for the game, he brought it into the modern era (like it or not) and helped make the game more successful and popular. Sure, he was egocentric and loved the publicity that came with owing the most storied franchise in history (sorry, couln't resist), but he was partly responsible for growing the game... period. Not to mention everything he did philanthropically that hardly ever gets mentioned. His contributions to the game at levels far below MLB have also helped the game grow.

Player wise as much as love Thurman and Donny Baseball, I don't think they should be in, but baseball wise.... The Boss should be a shoe in....

Tim

[D. Bergin]

Last I checked, there were 13 third basemen in the Hall of Fame, and Graig Nettles was a better player than several of them. Nettles played in an era when offensive stats were depressed in general, and he was one of the game's better offensive players. His defense was magnificent, and if his career hadn't overlapped Brooks Robinson's, he would have won far more than one Gold Glove.

Ultimately he gets a raw deal because his career doesn't include the kind of cheap stats that most HOF voters look for (high batting average, number of awards, etc), but statistically, he's one of the best players to ever play his position.

-Al

I think Buddy Bell had just as much to do with Nettles not winning more Gold Gloves, as Brooksie.

[D. Bergin]

As a Yankee fan, I'm not exactly outraged by anybody not in there. I grew up in my formative years with Donnie Baseball as my favorite Yankee also.

I think I'm a little more annoyed with how easily Kirby Puckett got in with identical stats, rather then miffed that Donnie is not in there.

Never had a problem with Maris or Munson not being in. They are legendary for their own reasons, but I don't think they need the HOF to qualify their careers.

Carl Mays as somebody mentioned already is probably the biggest head-scratcher to me, and he bounced around enough, a lot of fans don't necessarily count him as a "Yankee"...........plus we all know how unlikable he was.

[beachhead2]

But I'm surprised Bernie Williams is seldom in this conversation. Especially in comparison to Mattingly. His peak wasn't as good as Mattingly's but his career numbers are remarkably similar. Williams also played a key defensive position on 6 AL pennant teams and 4 WS winners. That said, I'm not saying he should be in. I'm just surprised I never hear him mentioned.

[Runscott]

I think Buddy Bell had just as much to do with Nettles not winning more Gold Gloves, as Brooksie.

If kids didn't get very excited over pulling his card when he was playing, he's probably not HOF material (Nettles). But then again - Niekro got in.

Also, awards and a high batting average are sort of a good thing, although I'm not a huge Ichiro fan, as he didn't do much other than sell tickets.

[D. Bergin]

But I'm surprised Bernie Williams is seldom in this conversation. Especially in comparison to Mattingly. His peak wasn't as good as Mattingly's but his career numbers are remarkably similar. Williams also played a key defensive position on 6 AL pennant teams and 4 WS winners. That said, I'm not saying he should be in. I'm just surprised I never hear him mentioned.

Great player, but Bernies numbers took a tumble the last 4 years of his career, and he's similar to several other OF's who never really got a sniff at the HOF. Ellis Burks, Fred Lynn, Bobby Bonds.

[D. Bergin]

If kids didn't get very excited over pulling his card when he was playing, he's probably not HOF material (Nettles). But then again - Niekro got in.

Also, awards and a high batting average are sort of a good thing, although I'm not a huge Ichiro fan, as he didn't do much other than sell tickets.


I don't know. I remember getting really excited pulling Ron Kittle, Steve Sax and Dave Righetti cards back in the day.

If you would have asked me back in 1984, I would have told you I was sure that Kent Hrbek would be a sure-fire future Hall of Famer. :D

[Runscott]

So, Koufax has 6 consecutive less than average years, one G+ year, 5 great years, then quits.

Mattingly has a 12 AB year, a .283 part-time year, 6 excellent years, then...
...does NOT quit, but plays 6 more years - all above average, but not excellent.

My argument would be that, given Koufax' arthritis, if he had played the 6 additional years that Mattingly did after his prime, he might have totally sucked during that period.

[Runscott]

I don't know. I remember getting really excited pulling Ron Kittle, Steve Sax and Dave Righetti cards back in the day.

If you would have asked me back in 1984, I would have told you I was sure that Kent Hrbek would be a sure-fire future Hall of Famer. :D

Man, you got excited easily. I can understand, as a kid, getting excited about the 'could haves' that didn't pan out; after all, they were great during the period when you were watching them. For me it was Frank Howard, Sam McDowell, Tony Conigliaro, Don Drysdale - great players when I was watching them.

What I can't understand is the guys getting into the HOF who never excited anyone - Phil Niekro, Don Sutton (for the most part). Sure, you wanted a card of these guys, but it wasn't going to bother you too much if you didn't get one. Guys like Mays, Maris, Aaron and Mantle - you HAD to have them.

[johnmh71]

How about Luis Tiant? He only pitched with the Yanks for a short time, but he does have better stats than 10 pitchers already in there. Catfish has almost identical stats.

[refz]

The top of the list IMO should be Allie Reynolds with an 8 year run of brilliance in a Yankee uniform. .630 career winning percentage, pitched in 6 WS with 7-2 record and 4 saves.

Can't understand why he isn't in.

+1 Reynolds has my vote, good mention

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baseball reference's scoring system ranks Allie Reynolds as the 391st best pitcher ever.

[npa589]

With regard to the Yankees, I've never understood the pass for their stadium. For some crazy reason, Wrigley Field is recognized as a band box, where it is easy to hit home runs - so HR stats are overlooked. Yet, half the year, and on any given day, it is nearly impossible to hit a home run (unless you're juiced up). Every day in the New Yankee Stadium and in the old one gave hitters the opportunity to pull or push a pop fly into the bleachers. Maris's season was magical, but so was the porch that played perfectly to his swing.

[D. Bergin]

With regard to the Yankees, I've never understood the pass for their stadium. For some crazy reason, Wrigley Field is recognized as a band box, where it is easy to hit home runs - so HR stats are overlooked. Yet, half the year, and on any given day, it is nearly impossible to hit a home run (unless you're juiced up). Every day in the New Yankee Stadium and in the old one gave hitters the opportunity to pull or push a pop fly into the bleachers. Maris's season was magical, but so was the porch that played perfectly to his swing.


I never heard of HR stats in Wrigley Field being overlooked.

Coors Field is pretty much the only park that players get penalized for playing in when it comes to HOF or general prestige.

It's the PED's of ballparks.

I think everybody else gets a pass.

Yankee Stadium also ruined many a left hander who fell in love with that short porch and all of a sudden forgot how to hit pitches on the outer half of the plate, and right handers who weren't quite as strong as the Dave Winfields or Mickey Mantles of the world, to put the ball out on that side of the park.

[SteveMitchell]

Can Elston Howard get a little love for the hall?

12 time allstar
2 gold gloves
1 mvp
4 World series titles

I'm impressed with Howard's numbers and have long believed Shocker should be in the Hall of Fame. Munson always impressed me by his drive - including what appeared to be quick feet on the bases. I might go for Thurman if I studied his record more closely but right now, I'm on the fence regarding his candidacy.

[Nashvol]

With regard to the Yankees, I've never understood the pass for their stadium. For some crazy reason, Wrigley Field is recognized as a band box, where it is easy to hit home runs - so HR stats are overlooked. Yet, half the year, and on any given day, it is nearly impossible to hit a home run (unless you're juiced up). Every day in the New Yankee Stadium and in the old one gave hitters the opportunity to pull or push a pop fly into the bleachers. Maris's season was magical, but so was the porch that played perfectly to his swing.
Thirty one of Maris' home runs were hit in other parks.

[npa589]

Thirty one of Maris' home runs were hit in other parks.

Fair point...:D --- I'm just a completely biased Cubs fan, which, due to lack of success, is a franchise that serves as the antithesis of the Yankees. If I had to pin my hopes on any argument for more Yankees being in the HOF than should be - it would be due to the postseason success.


And about Wrigley's HR stats being overlooked, I'm mainly referring to my frustration listening to certain writers speaking of why Santo didn't deserve to be in the hall of fame. Since WAR has been mentioned, look at his career WAR rankings for position players and who he is ahead of, among other things...

I never really understood it, and attributed it to him being a Cub in that era of futility. When I look at the Chicago Cubs roster of 1969, and know that they didn't even make the playoffs, I then realize that the Cubs will never win a World Series.

To get back on course, and backtracking on my tangent, I would say Nettles should get discussion...

[D. Bergin]

Fair point...:D --- I'm just a completely biased Cubs fan, which, due to lack of success, is a franchise that serves as the antithesis of the Yankees. If I had to pin my hopes on any argument for more Yankees being in the HOF than should be - it would be due to the postseason success.


And about Wrigley's HR stats being overlooked, I'm mainly referring to my frustration listening to certain writers speaking of why Santo didn't deserve to be in the hall of fame. Since WAR has been mentioned, look at his career WAR rankings for position players and who he is ahead of, among other things...

I never really understood it, and attributed it to him being a Cub in that era of futility. When I look at the Chicago Cubs roster of 1969, and know that they didn't even make the playoffs, I then realize that the Cubs will never win a World Series.

To get back on course, and backtracking on my tangent, I would say Nettles should get discussion...


I'm a Yankee fan but I sympathize. I've been a proponent of Santo since I first started memorizing the back of baseball cards as a little tyke in the late 70's, and realizing early on that players are compared to other players at their position in their league.

I also never quite understood the disdain that Billy Williams often receives. Sure, he was an unassuming ballplayer, and kids probably didn't get too excited when they pulled his card out of a pack, but he was just a model of consistency, year after year, during an era that favored pitchers more then most times.