Need Help with Bucky Harris from Permier Auction

[tazdmb]

Thought I purchased Harris at a good price and from a reputable auction house, then read Ron's book and said that nearly all of these photos are fake. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x25/tazdmb/Harris_zps48d2bf99.jpg

[JimStinson]

Is it an 8x10 in size ?
___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[tazdmb]

Is it an 8x10 in size ?
___________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Yes

http://www.premierauctionsonline.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=39925&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=1&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=19&seo=Bucky-Harris-Signed-8%E2%80%9D-x-10%E2%80%9D-Photograph

[JimStinson]

That particular image in 8x10 format signed with that particular pen has generally been regarded by most collectors as being not genuine for quite some time. Probably could be debated and likely will be ...:)
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[tazdmb]

Having JSA certify it, curious to see what happens. I mean, I looks just like other Harris's that I know are legit.

[baseballart]

This is from a copy of his 1924 book Playing the Game. I haven't compared it lately to other Harris signatures.

Max


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5257/5463476417_84b1b8e24e_z.jpg

[JimStinson]

Having JSA certify it, curious to see what happens. I mean, I looks just like other Harris's that I know are legit.

Your welcome
_______________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[tazdmb]

Your welcome
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jim@stinsonsports.com

Jim,

As always, I appreciate the services you provide on this forum and what an asset you are to the community, however, I am not quite sure what I am thanking you for (YET).

Regardless, both my wallet and I are (not) looking forward to next week's e-mail blast from you.

[GrayGhost]

Jim stated that those particular photos are generally fake, yet you are still sending it in...why sir?

[tazdmb]

Jim stated that those particular photos are generally fake, yet you are still sending it in...why sir?

Auction house guarantees to pass JSA, so either, I get my money back or it passes and I should be able to sell and recoup my money.

[yanks12025]

I don't get why bother asking for opinions on here then. Jim said these are regarded as fakes, yet you rather take JSA or PSA opinions and then if it passes you'll just sell it. When it may be a fake.

[shelly]

I opened a thread for that same reason. If you are going ask don't insult us by saying ok now I am going to ask someone I trust. Why waste your time or ours?:mad:

[yanks12025]

I've asked Jim, Shelly, etc for their advice on autos. But I trust our members opinions more then PSA or JSA.

[thecatspajamas]

Taz, I can see where you're coming from, being limited by the AH to second opinions from a particular authenticator only (which is a whole other debate in itself).

In the future, if you're bound by AH rules to submitting it elsewhere to get a refund, maybe wait to get the results back from JSA or whoever before posting it here for opinions though? That way it becomes more of a debate of JSA's evaluation of the auto rather than a slap to those who render their opinion here only to hear that you're still sending it off to a TPA.

[drc]

Jim's response was rhetorically ambiguous. He may have implied, but never said it was fake.

I'm not criticizing Jim at all, just saying I could see how the original poster might not have realized he was getting a Yes or No answer. In fact, I first read it to mean that Jim thought the authenticity could reasonably be debated.

[travrosty]

it's the old, "thanks for telling me it's fake but if i can get it to pass psa or jsa i can resell it and get my money back and pass the fake onto someone else wrapped in a fancy coa from an unnamed authenticator."

fake is fake, psa or jsa cert on a fake does not make it real, it just justifies reselling it in some peoples minds. he said these are generally considered fakes.

spence or grads opinion makes it real then? what is jim, chopped liver?

Jim, start charging 100 dollars and then they will believe you.

[mr2686]

Jim, I'll believe you for free! :D:D:D

[tazdmb]

First, I never meant to insult Jim, or anyone else on this board. To be honest, as I mentioned earlier, I have no idea if the autograph is truly fake or not. I see Ron's book said most of these are fakes and to be honest, I can't make heads or tails of Jim's answer.

I respect Jim enough that if he, or certain other board members, would said it was real, I would have saved my money on JSA. I am only sending to JSA in the hopes of getting a refund. I thought I did my due diligence when I put the bid in when I was out of town, as the signature looks comparable to other authentic examples. Should I have done better research prior to bidding, yes. However, at this point, I am reluctant to throw nearly $100 (more once JSA is done with it) away without trying get my money back, which is what I am willing to do if Jim/Richard/Shelley can conclude it is fake, regardless of JSA's response.

[baseballart]

Does anyone have any comments on the Stanley Harris I posted? It doesn't look like any Bucky Harris signatures on google images, but again, my knowledge of autographs barely extends beyond recognizing my own signature.

[Leon]

Does anyone have any comments on the Stanley Harris I posted? It doesn't look like any Bucky Harris signatures on google images, but again, my knowledge of autographs barely extends beyond recognizing my own signature.

It looks like an autograph to me. Does that help any, Max?

[Duluth Eskimo]

Auction house guarantees to pass JSA, so either, I get my money back or it passes and I should be able to sell and recoup my money.

I meant to comment on this when I saw it, but it was late. If you were looking to gather info from experts on this board to supplement what you are already were worrying about, then why slap Mr Stinson in the face when he seconded the opinion given by an equally respected autograph expert?

On top of that, you out yourself to a group of people (that prides themselves on ridding the hobby of forgeries) that you intend to resell an item deemed a forgery by a board expert and others to let yourself off the hook.

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?????

Lastly, notwithstanding the fact that both PSA and JSA authenticate these photos, would you be willing to discuss the signature and why there is confusion and differing opinions Mr Stinson? thanks

[JimStinson]

I meant to comment on this when I saw it, but it was late. If you were looking to gather info from experts on this board to supplement what you are already were worrying about, then why slap Mr Stinson in the face when he seconded the opinion given by an equally respected autograph expert?

On top of that, you out yourself to a group of people (that prides themselves on ridding the hobby of forgeries) that you intend to resell an item deemed a forgery by a board expert and others to let yourself off the hook.

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?????

Lastly, notwithstanding the fact that both PSA and JSA authenticate these photos, would you be willing to discuss the signature and why there is confusion and differing opinions Mr Stinson? thanks

Typically if I give an opinion that is contrary , I have nothing to gain but enemies or arguments , I try and avoid either one especially when I have no dog in the fight. When I said in the earlier post that it would be "debated" I meant that not everyone is going to agree. To address an earlier post in the thread FORGERIES are GOING TO LOOK LIKE known examples , so to base the opinion on strickly what it LOOKS like, is not valid either.
But to illustrate an example used in another post with regards to the Holland furnace company Rocky Marciano items , when they first hit the market with a COA from one of Marciano's family members they were thought to be good , however within 30 days additional evidence surfaced to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt they were forged. So now these many years later anyone in the know, won't touch them.
So getting back to the Harris when those 8x10's surfaced , information networked between collectors concluded at the time they were to be avoided. What was common knowledge then , over the course of 20 plus years becomes diluded or forgotten and the new crop of collectors is either not aware or dosen't care. I was only passing along to the person that asked the question what I guessed was common knowledge which obviously I guessed wrong, considering the length of this thread.
So in conclusion can I say with 100% accuracy that its a forgery ? Of course not I was not there ! And opinions just seem to lead to controversy or in this case "second guessing" so lately I have purposely avoided giving them. If I was charging $100 or $200 a whack I wouldn;t care and I'd just fade the heat but for FREE ? why bother ?
So in conclusion and only speaking for myself if you offered the photo to me for free asking only that I pay the postage and handling I would decline. Thats not to say that someone else might certify it as genuine thats their opinion.
________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Fuddjcal]

I don't get why bother asking for opinions on here then. Jim said these are regarded as fakes, yet you rather take JSA or PSA opinions and then if it passes you'll just sell it. When it may be a fake.

apparently...if it passes JSA, "It's a fake he can live with" to quote another regular contributor

[cubsfan-budman]

I get the impression that he agrees it is fake, but he can't get his money back from the auction house based on Jim's word on this message board. The OP has said as much a couple of times. If it's fake, hopefully it will be found as such by JSA, at which point he can ask for his money back.

I suppose if JSA finds it is genuine, then there may be an issue.

I think that some folks here are a bit too eager to harshly judge some of the newbies that come here asking for opinions.

[jgmp123]

I get the impression that he agrees it is fake, but he can't get his money back from the auction house based on Jim's word on this message board. The OP has said as much a couple of times. If it's fake, hopefully it will be found as such by JSA, at which point he can ask for his money back.

I suppose if JSA finds it is genuine, then there may be an issue.

I think that some folks here are a bit too eager to harshly judge some of the newbies that come here asking for opinions.

+1...

[packs]

I found myself in this position recently as well. I bought a Babe Ruth signed Worlds Fair ticket from Lelands that members on the Board felt was a forgery. I called Lelands and told them about their opinions and Lelands then offered to send the signature to JSA for their opinion. It turned out that the Board was right, the signature was a forgery and I was refunded in full and received a $100 voucher for a future auction.

So why did I ask for the Board's opinion and request a third party's opinion too? Because I have a great deal of respect for both the members of this Board and the auction house, and as we all know, people make mistakes.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I think some of you people are missing the point. This is not to criticize him for attempting to get his money back. If he can use what Mr Stinson told him and what he learned from Mr Keurajian's book that is great, it's the fact that he clearly states (even though he and others suspect it's forged) that he plans to resell the item to "recoup" his money. So basically he admits he made a mistake and instead of eating the loss on his mistake, he plans to let someone else eat it if it passes authentication. Again, am I missing something here?

I don't think this is harsh, it's the truth. I have been buying and selling autographs on a small scale along with other vintage memorabilia for many years and I have made many mistakes, one thing I don't do is pass my mistakes on to others. Mistakes are part of the game anytime you choose to buy an autograph that you did not personally see signed, but passing it on is exactly why people hate third party authentication so much

[David Atkatz]

I have, at this moment, a 1927 Yankees signed ball sitting on my desk.
A four-figure mistake on my part.
It keeps me humble. (Or at least more humble than I would be without it.)

[drc]

I'm not an autograph expert and know that there are many learned and helpful people on this site who've done a service in offering their inputs, people who know a lot more about autographs than I do. My problem in this thread is there is no rule, stated or unstated or implied, that a collector can't ask for an opinion on this website then seek another opinion elsewhere. An autograph or baseball card or baseball bat owner is free to get a third opinion elsewhere after asking for an opinion here. It's his right.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I get the impression that he agrees it is fake, but he can't get his money back from the auction house based on Jim's word on this message board. The OP has said as much a couple of times. If it's fake, hopefully it will be found as such by JSA, at which point he can ask for his money back.

I suppose if JSA finds it is genuine, then there may be an issue.

I think that some folks here are a bit too eager to harshly judge some of the newbies that come here asking for opinions.

I'm not an autograph expert and know that there are many learned and helpful people on this site who've done a service in offering their inputs, people who know a lot more about autographs than I do. My problem in this thread is there is no rule, stated or unstated or implied, that a collector can't ask for an opinion on this website then seek another opinion elsewhere. An autograph or baseball card or baseball bat owner is free to get a third opinion elsewhere after asking for an opinion here. It's his right.

It is his right to do whatever he wants, but he even admitted he doesn't want it even if it does pass JSA. He wants to pass something he and two learned experts agree is no good on to some other unsuspecting buyer.

Where has honor gone nowadays? I cannot believe people are sticking up for this ridiculousness. I'm sure the guy is a decent person, but his comments are stupid.

[drc]

I'm a photograph expert, and I admit I can get peeved when a person sends a photograph to certain places for authentication. In part, I sometimes think its a waste of time after I just told them what it is. But some collectors need their photograph in a labelled holder. So I am able to understand why folks here could get miffed if someone chose to send it to JSA after getting good opinions here. I just think it's his right to do so.

[tazdmb]

I am only responding to this thread since it has been bumped so many times after I hoped it would have died, so hopefully this will be enough to answer some your comments.

The only reason I initially stated I would possibly sell was that I interpreted Jim's initial comments when he said the authenticity was "probably debatable" (never was it initially stated that it was a deemed forgery) as that the photo could be authentic and if you look on ebay, there is a similar photo, signed in a similar marker being sold by a dealer that has a top reputation on this board, so I initially figured there was nothing wrong for me doing the same, if it passed. I am curious any of you that have crucified me here have contacted this seller and demand that he pull it down.

I will assume some did not read when I stated back on page 2 that I would destroy the photo if it passes JSA, which I have yet to hear back from, if other respected members of this community believe it was not authentic, which I felt was not clear in Jim's initial comment, but was made clear (to me) later on. The reason the photo is being sent to JSA (and only JSA) in the first place is to try and get a refund from the auction house, which is my only recourse. Is is DEFIANTLY not because I trust them over Jim or Ron or to get a fake I can live with-if that were the case, I would never post on here and buy only from Coach's Corner. The auction house placed this rule, not me. I think anyone in my position would do the same if they found out something wasn't authentic, it was not to second guess Jim, which I have spoken to privately about.

In the meantime, I am always grateful to the members of this community who help those, such as myself, with their comments reagrding our hobby.

Now, I am off to sell my ACE certified Frank Grant autograph baseball (yes-that is a joke).

[RichardSimon]

Now, I am off to sell my ACE certified Frank Grant autograph baseball (yes-that is a joke).

If you are offering something for sale at least show us a picture :D:D

[travrosty]

the game goes like this, first ask someone online for free,

if their opinion is not what you wanted, then send it to psa, if it doesnt pass, then send it to jsa, if it doesnt pass then send it to global, if it doesnt pass then find someone else to give it a cert. But get that cert, darn it!

meanwhile all the old time hobbyists and collectors needed is to see the item for themselves to make up their own mind, and if an opinion from jim stinson or if other well established dealers or hobbyists opinion came with it, fine, but a psa or jsa opinion when you dont even know who looked at it?

it could have been a 19 year old college intern for all we know. what kind of weight is that?

I was talking to someone last night, and told him that I knew many of the boxing collectors and dealers and people in the hobby whose opinion I trust on boxing, but never in those years and years, have I ever heard the name Grad or Spence? Now their supposed secret opinion on some letterhead is suppose to convince someone that a boxing item is good, or bad? I say boxing because it is my hobby, not baseball so much, but it applies across the board.

jim, you need to start charging $$$. so then only the people who want to really know if it is good or not will pay, no fishing expeditions.