Opinion on Ruth 1 of 1 Cut-Auto Card??

[Westsiders]

This Leaf Masterpiece card was just listed on Ebay and is stated to be authenticated by either PSA and/or JSA (which I believe is also a requirement of Leaf for them to include the cut auto in a card).

I've been in the market for a Ruth auto for awhile, but am nowhere near an expert. To my untrained eye, the Ruth auto appears to be very slowly written (which is not common for the Ruth auto's I've seen).

My question is this: Is it likely that it was slowly written because Ruth signed it much later in life?

Trying to educate/protect myself as a consumer. Thanks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Leaf-Executive-Masterpiece-Babe-Ruth-Joe-McCarthy-Dual-Autograph-Card-1-1-/330893451880?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0ac96268

[GrayGhost]

Yech

[David Atkatz]

That Ruth is awful. As much as I dislike the alphabet guys, I guarantee JSA never approved it.

[jgmp123]

I really don't see anything good about that Ruth...well, I take that back..they did manage to spell it correctly.

[yanksfan09]

Wow, that is awful. Looks like a child attempted that. That one is hard to believe that a card company actually made something with anything that bad looking and Beckett slabbed it. I wonder if they even looked at the sig or do they just take Leaf's word on the authentication part of it?

[RichardSimon]

That autograph was signed by someone who knew how to spell Babe Ruth but I don't think the Babe signed it.
Besides the seller who has said that the autograph was examined by PSA or JSA. It does not appear to state that on the card and there are so many bad autographs out there from the card companies, this is another one in a long trail.
My thoughts about the TPA's are well known but I find it hard to believe that either one of the big two examined this horrid Ruth. That makes two nice things I have said about them today. <shudder> :).

[GrayGhost]

Blind faith in any authenticator, esp the "guys with the big ad budget" will often get u burned. I could do a better Ruth than that..As said, YECH and HORRIFIC

[JimStinson]

This Leaf Masterpiece card was just listed on Ebay and is stated to be authenticated by either PSA and/or JSA (which I believe is also a requirement of Leaf for them to include the cut auto in a card).

I've been in the market for a Ruth auto for awhile, but am nowhere near an expert. To my untrained eye, the Ruth auto appears to be very slowly written (which is not common for the Ruth auto's I've seen).

My question is this: Is it likely that it was slowly written because Ruth signed it much later in life?

Trying to educate/protect myself as a consumer. Thanks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Leaf-Executive-Masterpiece-Babe-Ruth-Joe-McCarthy-Dual-Autograph-Card-1-1-/330893451880?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0ac96268
Babe Ruth's signature was NEVER slowly written even later in life and when he was very sick, Except some signatures you begin to see in 1947 and 1948 that were ghost signed by his wife. And even they are not what I'd call slowly written , and Usually easily identifiable. The baseball displayed at the Hall of Fame as the "last Baseball Signed by Babe Ruth" is signed by his wife.

One of the last things he did before he died was take a trip throughout Florida with Claire he attended many public events and signed alot of autographs , I've seen things documented to have been signed during those events and they are ROBUST. Shortly after the trip he was re admited to the hospital where he died.
_________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[daves_resale_shop]

I think its interesting that these major companies are not (thoroughly) doing their due diligence prior to putting these products together... This is obviously the chase card that drive traffic at retail... This is obviously a very bad mark against the manufacturers reputation...

[jgmp123]

Was this card an actual "chase" card or one of those Leaf promotions where you can send in your own item and pay like $45 to get it encased and labeled 1/1?

[Westsiders]

Babe Ruth's signature was NEVER slowly written even later in life and when he was very sick, Except some signatures you begin to see in 1947 and 1948 that were ghost signed by his wife. And even they are not what I'd call slowly written , and Usually easily identifiable. The baseball displayed at the Hall of Fame as the "last Baseball Signed by Babe Ruth" is signed by his wife.

One of the last things he did before he died was take a trip throughout Florida with Claire he attended many public events and signed alot of autographs , I've seen things documented to have been signed during those events and they are ROBUST. Shortly after the trip he was re admited to the hospital where he died.
_________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

Appreciate the information. I've never come across a Ruth so sloooowly written. Thought maybe I was missing something obvious.

[Westsiders]

I don't believe this was a chase card....rather one of the $45 specials. But I've heard that Leaf does require authentication by only JSA or PSA...so I'm assuming it has been authenticated by one of the big boys (but you never know).

[travrosty]

agreed, they do require psa or jsa authentication, so it seems that either psa or jsa certified this piece of carp.

[RichardSimon]

agreed, they do require psa or jsa authentication, so it seems that either psa or jsa certified this piece of carp.

I wrote to the seller and that is what he told me, either PSA or JSA authenticated this Ruth.
There is not even a dissenting opinion on the board as to whether this is good or bad.
Pretty amazing if it truly was authenticated by one of the alphabet companies.

[jgmp123]

I would be interested to know the cert # to see if it even exists. Pretty easy to make up a fake cert...

[Mr. Zipper]

The auction is now showing an image of a JSA letter. The JSA letter appears to be a counterfeit.

[Westsiders]

The actual # on the cert is good...meaning that a cert containing that number exists (verified on the JSA website). However, there is no photo of the cut auto (with that cert #) on the JSA website (not sure if that's common).

If that's the case, then it would be easy for someone to use that cert # fraudulently.

[GrayGhost]

The letter prob is a fake. There is NO CHANCE in HE double L that is a good Ruth Cut. ZERO

[Westsiders]

To play devil's advocate...

Assuming that the JSA cert is indeed a fake...then the forger did a pretty good job on the letter itself.

Would someone take the time to produce a well made cert, then turn-around and try to pass off such a bad looking Ruth as legit? (And in my opinion, the auto is awful....if Ruth signed it, he must have done it with his off-hand).

And if this auto is actually certified...then I'm more confused than ever :eek:

[Leon]

Would someone take the time to produce a well made cert, then turn-around and try to pass off such a bad looking Ruth as legit?


yes

[Mr. Zipper]

To play devil's advocate...

Assuming that the JSA cert is indeed a fake...then the forger did a pretty good job on the letter itself.

Would someone take the time to produce a well made cert, then turn-around and try to pass off such a bad looking Ruth as legit?

The letter is not that deceptive. Issues are apparent even in the small scan. I suspect in-hand it would be obvious to most everyone except the person at Leaf who assembled the card.

[RichardSimon]

yes

+1

Two skill sets are required to do a fake cert and a fake Ruth sig.
One can be done with some ease on a computer.
The other does require some ability.
Having one skill does not mean that the forger has the other skill.
And this forger obviously does not have any forging skill.
The guys I know of who forge are laughing at this one :eek:

[packs]

It's interesting that the bottom of the cert is cut out of the auction photo. On the bottom of real JSA letters there is a JSA sticker with a matching cert number. It would be on the letter directly below where the photo is cut off.

[JimStinson]

To play devil's advocate...

Assuming that the JSA cert is indeed a fake...then the forger did a pretty good job on the letter itself.

Would someone take the time to produce a well made cert, then turn-around and try to pass off such a bad looking Ruth as legit? (And in my opinion, the auto is awful....if Ruth signed it, he must have done it with his off-hand).

And if this auto is actually certified...then I'm more confused than ever :eek:

If the autograph itself is not pictured in the registry and most are not , it would simply say something like "Babe Ruth Cut" when the number is keyed in. Which means the original letter could be used with ANY Babe Ruth cut unless the signature is pictured on the letter.
____________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[RichardSimon]

I wrote to the seller hours ago asking for a better copy of the COA.
Tick,,tick,,tick,, still waiting for that.
The sig looks like it was signed on a cut from a brown paper bag.

[RichardSimon]

An EMR report has been sent to ebay on this crap. Let us see if they do anything.

[sportscollector]

I posted this one in another thread about a month ago. I never bought it but it show's a authentic Ruth signature. If you compare the 2 its night and day diffrence

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a514/sportscollector2012/img627_zpsd895bf88.jpg

[canjond]

agreed, they do require psa or jsa authentication, so it seems that either psa or jsa certified this piece of carp.

Or someone created a fake JSA or PSA cert, which is clearly the case here... Just look at the JSA cert pictured in the auction; the "Letter of Authenticity" font at the top is so clearly not the typeface JSA uses.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Or someone created a fake JSA or PSA cert, which is clearly the case here... Just look at the JSA cert pictured in the auction; the "Letter of Authenticity" font at the top is so clearly not the typeface JSA uses.

Anyone here (I do!!!) see anything interesting in the below photo?

92729

[jgmp123]

Could be wrong, but I don't feel that Ruth was done with a "steel tip" pen...

[packs]

The LOA is of the signature pre-cut for the card? Either that or they are 2 different cuts.

[Mr. Zipper]

Anyone here (I do!!!) see anything interesting in the below photo?

The image of the LOA is a screen grab. A picture of a picture.

[steve B]

Could be wrong, but I don't feel that Ruth was done with a "steel tip" pen...

I think the ball in modern ballpoints is steel.......

Steve B

[thetruthisoutthere]

The seller of this "1/1" Babe Ruth purchased this on EBay. Here is the link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Babe-Ruth-New-York-Yankees-Signed-Authentic-Cut-Signature-JSA-B28592-/170987336648?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2F i.html%3F_sadis%3D200%26_ipg%3D50%26LH_SALE_CURREN CY%3D0%26_sacat%3D0%26_samihi%3D%26_samilow%3D%26_ fpos%3D%26_ftrt%3D901%26_udhi%3D%26_oexkw%3D%26_sa bdhi%3D%26_ftrv%3D1%26_udlo%3D%26_sabdlo%3D%26_adv %3D1%26_sop%3D10%26_dmd%3D1%26_okw%3D%26_fsct%3D%2 6_nkw%3D170987336648%26_rdc%3D1&nma=true&si=daq%252BSAJoUp1wifFCmzuDC%252BEYZsE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


92771

92772

[GrayGhost]

GREAT Detective work on that obvious poor Forgery, Chris Sir.

While looking at the listing , I had this one pop up...Is it real? IT MUST BE, because of all the goobledegook Spectral poop thingy...And Madison Towers is so prestegeous.

We would take the ad a bit more seriously, if he had spelled PRESTIGIOUS correctly. :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/September-1929-Babe-Ruth-cut-signed-autographed-MADISON-TOWERS-COA-HOF-Yankees-/321026954867?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D11%26meid%3D6399901998811093726%26pid%3D100 011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D170987336648%26

[RichardSimon]

This Ruth autograph has been a scam from the beginning. A horrid autograph, a fake JSA cert, a sale to someone who admittedly knows nothing about autographs (I have corresponded with the recent seller) but had faith in a JSA cert which turns out to be bogus.
Just a total mess. Scammers, unknowing buyer, dopey Leaf crappy 1/1 to suck in collectors and fast buck guys, just a mess.

[RichardSimon]

GREAT Detective work on that obvious poor Forgery, Chris Sir.

While looking at the listing , I had this one pop up...Is it real? IT MUST BE, because of all the goobledegook Spectral poop thingy...And Madison Towers is so prestegeous.

We would take the ad a bit more seriously, if he had spelled PRESTIGIOUS correctly. :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/September-1929-Babe-Ruth-cut-signed-autographed-MADISON-TOWERS-COA-HOF-Yankees-/321026954867?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D11%26meid%3D6399901998811093726%26pid%3D100 011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D2%26sd%3D170987336648%26

And the authenticator takes seven months!!!! to examine the item. SEVEN MONTHS,,,wow,,

[travrosty]

It's JSA's fault for not putting a photo up with the corresponding cert number.

no one could pass off this carp without jsa dropping the ball again and refusing to put up a picture in their database.

if jsa puts up a picture, then they cant use the fake cert without being caught in a lie. all someone would have to do is enter the cert number in jsa's database, and when the photo doesn't match, busted!

[chaddurbin]

bad boo boo by leaf. scammers seeing this will just send their fake crap and fake cert to leaf and get them slabbed. just another layer to legitimize the forgery and buffer themselves.

[RichardSimon]

The whole Leaf thing is such crap.
The founders of the original Leaf must be rolling over in their graves.
Soliciting people to send them autographs to create their own 1/1 and then having fools pay premiums for it is mind boggling IMO.
Just another example of the idiocy of some collectors. Or are they really collectors?

[GrayGhost]

The whole Leaf thing is such crap.
The founders of the original Leaf must be rolling over in their graves.
Soliciting people to send them autographs to create their own 1/1 and then having fools pay premiums for it is mind boggling IMO.
Just another example of the idiocy of some collectors. Or are they really collectors?

They are NOT collectors. They are speculators. They have NO interest in what this stuff really means, from a historical standpoint. It is so sad.

That Ruth in this thread is a real sad pathetic case. Stupidity, Greed and dishonesty have so taken over the autograph end of our great hobby that it is really disheartening

[packs]

It is easy to spot a fake JSA cert. As I suspected there isn't a matching cert number sticker on the cert itself. That's a tell tale sign of a fake letter. They never remember to fake the sticker too.

[thenavarro]

It's JSA's fault for not putting a photo up with the corresponding cert number.

no one could pass off this carp without jsa dropping the ball again and refusing to put up a picture in their database.

if jsa puts up a picture, then they cant use the fake cert without being caught in a lie. all someone would have to do is enter the cert number in jsa's database, and when the photo doesn't match, busted!

They have righted the ship I believe on new items they authenticate with a loa. Here's a jeter ball I had done about 11 days ago or so and its already pictured on their site:

Cert number. X89296

Mike

[RichardSimon]

The listing has been removed by the seller.
I received this e mail from him not long ago:


Okay, thank you. I will verify with JSA, then remove the listing and deal with ebay regarding the matter.

Thank you for helping expose the fraud.

Kind regards

- fanofmantle

[chaddurbin]

that's great richard, you should tell him his 45 day ebay/paypal protection is almost up...so tell him to file that claim asap and get his $1800 back.

[RichardSimon]

that's great richard, you should tell him his 45 day ebay/paypal protection is almost up...so tell him to file that claim asap and get his $1800 back.

will do

[GrayGhost]

FANTASTIC. I feel the seller just suffered from Blind faith in , this case, JSA, tho it was a FAKE JSA. Again, you need to at least have a clue what you are looking at, aside from the Cert. The Ruth was a horrible fake to anyone who looks at any on his own.

And another example here of why this Forum out and out is great most times. People helping others who they don't even know. Thanks Richard and everyone, Seller seems grateful he was told too.

[travrosty]

can it be returned to the original seller if it has been altered and is now in a card form. if the original seller gets the card back and refunds, he doesnt really need the fake jsa letter back, it is now verified via the card that it has been certed, even though it hasn't.

that card will float around forever until it sells to another dupe, even if not on ebay.

[sylbry]

Leaf and Beckett seem to be the one that legitimized the fake. JSA never saw it. Leaf and Beckett did.

Not so sure if the seller is really an innocent victim. Seller appears to have purchased enough autographs to know better.

[RichardSimon]

can it be returned to the original seller if it has been altered and is now in a card form. if the original seller gets the card back and refunds, he doesnt really need the fake jsa letter back, it is now verified via the card that it has been certed, even though it hasn't.

that card will float around forever until it sells to another dupe, even if not on ebay.

Leaf is really the guilty one here. They should have recognized the fake cert for what it was. They are probably using $10 an hour employees to do this work and I guess hoping for someone making low wages to recognize a fake cert would be asking too much.
You are probably right Travis, even if the original seller gives a refund he can still probably sell the card to some dupe.

[whitehse]

I have contact Brian Gray, the owner of Leaf and gave him the link to this thread. I know he is very active on other boards when talking about his product so he might be willing to come here as well.

[RichardSimon]

I have contact Brian Gray, the owner of Leaf and gave him the link to this thread. I know he is very active on other boards when talking about his product so he might be willing to come here as well.

Maybe he can explain why his employees cannot pick up on an obvious fake cert when they have it in hand. Maybe his employees need to be trained a bit better.
If a scam can be perpetrated in this hobby then someone will try it, we all know that is true. His employees should be made more aware of that.

[RichardSimon]

Heard from the seller again after I told him about the 45 day rule.
Here is his reply:


Have opened a case and the LOA is being sent to JSA for verification. Thank you for your help. May have saved me close to 2K.

Kind regards.

- fanofmantle

[RichardSimon]

Leaf and Beckett seem to be the one that legitimized the fake. JSA never saw it. Leaf and Beckett did.

Not so sure if the seller is really an innocent victim. Seller appears to have purchased enough autographs to know better.

That may be true but you know how people in this hobby are.
Buy the COA not the graph.
Here is an interesting fact that I was not aware of,, the seller did not have the COA because Leaf keeps the certs. The cert belongs to the owner of the autograph. How does Leaf justify keeping it? I could understand them making a copy for their records, but keeping the original cert?? Why??

[whitehse]

I got this quick email sent back to me from Brian at Leaf:

"The JSA letter/sticker is of questionable authenticity .. We are investigating at present.."

[GrayGhost]

I got this quick email sent back to me from Brian at Leaf:

"The JSA letter/sticker is of questionable authenticity .. We are investigating at present.."

Investigating? Sherlock Holmes is in Sussex, retired at his Bee Farm. FORGET THE DAMN JSA LETTER. The autograph is HORRIBLE. its FAKE, BOGUS, GARBAGE, etc.

but I hope they do discover who forged the letter, we know JSA wouldn't make THIS BAD an error.