Should Beckett be grading these paper cut outs?

[danmckee]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-RARE-1909-Spalding-Baseball-Guide-New-Orleans-Club-Shoeless-Joe-Jackson-/281065258420?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item4170cb7db4

I have a real problem with this. Now we have a legit company grading pages cut out of periodicals. That guy in Hawaii who started this was destroyed on this board years ago. I believe it was NASA grading and AAA?

I think to have a legit company slabbing pages from a periodical is just sending a bad message.

Your thoughts?

[bn2cardz]

You said grading, but it is just authenticated. So they are only saying it is an authentic page from a book.

If they started numerical grades I would agree with you.

[honus94566]

It doesn't have a numerical grade, just a slab to say it is authentic and not a copy. I don't have a problem with it whatsoever.

Grading companies aren't bound by anything. They can listen to their customers and do whatever they want to make their customers happy and grow their business.

[Bored5000]

I saw that listing last night, and looked up on Google what it was. I was actually able to find the auction where this piece previously sold. You can tell the collecting world has little respect for this piece when a playing era Shoeless Joe item sells for less than half the $625 the seller is asking for a minimum bid.

[Leon]

As I said in our email, I have absolutely no issue at all with it. Why anyone would, I don't know. It is labeled correctly. It is not for me but like I said Dan.....if you pick a cig butt up off of the ground and sell it as a cig butt off of the ground, and someone wants to pay for it, why should anyone care? They are a grading and authentication company. That is what they are doing. So, I politely disagree with you.

[triwak]

I'm not a big fan of this either. Encourages people to damage historical items, not intended to be torn apart. Also encourages attempts at misrepresenting items as "cards" to newbies.

[Fred]

This just goes to show how crazy this hobby is becoming...

You could take a Spalding Guide (over 100+ pages) cut out each page and have a butt load of slabs made from one book. This does a couple of things, first off it destroys a perfectly good Spalding Guide, second it allows the yahoo to pull a page with Joe Jackson on it and try to get hundreds of dollars for it. I guess, overall, we may see more and more perfectly fine books being destroyed in order to pull the page with Joe Jackson on it. Next they'll be looking for pages of magazines with Fatty Arbuckle or Jimmy Claxton...

For now, we could all go looking for that particular Spalding Guide and buy it for less than the cost of that slabbed page....

[danmckee]

It doesn't have a numerical grade, just a slab to say it is authentic and not a copy. I don't have a problem with it whatsoever.

Grading companies aren't bound by anything. They can listen to their customers and do whatever they want to make their customers happy and grow their business.

Grading companies aren't bound by anything? They can just do whatever they want? WOW! I completely misunderstood what their purpose is then.

[ullmandds]

I also am fine with authentic...not all that different from a page out of a significant comic book...I guess? Do they even grade those? I'd guess they do!

A number grade I'd have a problem with.

[danmckee]

I can't read the flip, does it state an authentic page from a book or magazine? I guess that wouldn't be too bad then a new collector would understand they were only getting a small piece of a full item.

Ok looks like I am way off base here. Maybe NASA grading should come back.

[Matthew H]

It's in a slab so it's a card now... You can't call it a page anymore.

[Leon]

I can't read the flip, does it state an authentic page from a book or magazine? I guess that wouldn't be too bad then a new collector would understand they were only getting a small piece of a full item.

Ok looks like I am way off base here. Maybe NASA grading should come back.

It only says "Spalding Guide" on it Dan. I don't think you are way off at all and I definitely see your arguments. Like I said too, there is just so many other things to combat that are so much worse. It's like a cop getting someone for going 58 mph in a 55 mph zone, to me.

[novakjr]

I don't have too much of a problem with it. Aside from the fact that it probably encourages cutting up the guides. I have a handful of these type of pages(only one slabbed). They can be great, for players that you otherwise may not be able to find something of. Like Sockalexis on the 1902 Lowell page, and the Moonlight Graham on the 1907 Scranton page. I also have one of the 1894 Cleveland team that used many of the JUST SO photos(it's a great item for Young and Burkett). Do I like that they've been cut out? NO! They make for some nice smaller display pieces though..

[Fred]

I'll call it going 65 in a 55.... 58, really???:p

[sbfinley]

I own a couple of these. As a full time student, it is an affordable way for me to acquire and display a period piece of players such as Ed Delehanty or the famed 1890's Baltimore squad. I can understand Dan's displeasure about destroying an intact item in this manner, but as a counter argument it affords collectors without a major budget an avenue to 19th century players and teams. (The price of that New Orleans page, however, is ridiculous.)

[Clutch-Hitter]

What if it was in a PSA holder? :D

[tschock]

The only minor quibble I have with both the Beckett authentication and the listing is that it is not a guide but a page from the guide. I would like to see Beckett add "Page" at the end of their description on the first line of text on the slab. Similarly for the seller listing the piece. It is not a "card" but a "page" from the guide. Other than that minor point, I don't think there is any deception of misrepresentation of what it is. (I know, that wasn't the original question/concern)

I have a problem "destroying" complete books, but don't have (as much) of a problem pulling pages from incomplete material. So if the guide was already in pieces, pages missing or eaten, etc, I can stomach the removal of additional pages a bit more. Though my "problem" with this directly proportional to the scarcity of an item.

[Clutch-Hitter]

So somebody could send this to Beckett for cross-over:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOE-JACKSON-1914-SPALDING-OFFICIAL-BASEBALL-GUIDE-CLE-AL-4-NM7-5-/190649260262?pt=Vintage_Sports_Memorabilia&hash=item2c6394d8e6

[Runscott]

I'm not a big fan of this either. Encourages people to damage historical items, not intended to be torn apart. Also encourages attempts at misrepresenting items as "cards" to newbies.

+1 Not sure how others in the hobby could not understand this, but if you don't have an appreciation for old books I guess it's possible.

[Runscott]

I don't have too much of a problem with it. Aside from the fact that it probably encourages cutting up the guides.

To some of us that is more than an "Aside", and you can remove the word "probably".

[Runscott]

I own a couple of these. As a full time student, it is an affordable way for me to acquire and display a period piece of players such as Ed Delehanty or the famed 1890's Baltimore squad. I can understand Dan's displeasure about destroying an intact item in this manner, but as a counter argument it affords collectors without a major budget an avenue to 19th century players and teams. (The price of that New Orleans page, however, is ridiculous.)

You are right. Chopping up a Ty Cobb bat and selling the splinters as part of a card also makes that bat more accessible. In fact, why don't we just do that with EVERY collectible? We could chop up all the T206 Honus Wagner cards while we're at it.

...in a perfect world where I owned all the scissors :(

[peterb69]

It does sadden me that somebody ripped out the page from a guide just to try and make a buck (this case many bucks).

Beckett should have notated that is is a "page from" the guide.

But I don't like that the seller calls the item a "card" in the description.

[Bored5000]

This just goes to show how crazy this hobby is becoming...

You could take a Spalding Guide (over 100+ pages) cut out each page and have a butt load of slabs made from one book. This does a couple of things, first off it destroys a perfectly good Spalding Guide, second it allows the yahoo to pull a page with Joe Jackson on it and try to get hundreds of dollars for it.

There is no "trying" to get hundreds of dollars about it. The same item previously sold for $298 last year. I am not an expert on Spalding Guides, but don't entire Spalding books sell for significantly less than this one page out of the book?

https://monthly.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=18691

[steve B]

You are right. Chopping up a Ty Cobb bat and selling the splinters as part of a card also makes that bat more accessible. In fact, why don't we just do that with EVERY collectible? We could chop up all the T206 Honus Wagner cards while we're at it.

...in a perfect world where I owned all the scissors :(

I'm also against cutting up stuff to "make it more accessible" That's never made sense to me.
I'd love to own a Ty Cobb bat someday. It will probably never happen.
I'd be ok with owning a Ty Cobb bat card. And could probably get one if I wanted it. But I don't think my level of excitement would be anywhere near finding a whole bat that I could afford.

The flip side is stuff that's already in really bad condition. Like maybe a Cobb bat that spent a few decades in the basement of barn that flooded regularly.

As far as books and magazines go, I bought a bunch of magazines from the former publisher of a nostalgia magazine. He also did a whole book of collected christmas stories and art from the same magazines. Some of what I got were in decent condition, others had been cut up already to make the book and magazines.
There's also a bunch of partial magazines. I'm not really all that against cutting up a magazine that had no covers when he got it and then had an article and a couple ads cut out years before I got it.
One of them sells for about $3 in nice condition. But the ad from 1920 specifically aimed at winning the womens vote sold for something like 20-30.
(If you want a bunch of stuff like that just Email me and I'll make you a great deal:))

And the batch of stuff he had, thousands of magazines, rotogravure sections, and books. aside from the roto sections the only bit of sports stuff was a spalding guide cover. Just the cover, and in poor condition at that. I looked for hours for the rest of it:(

Steve B

[Runscott]

The flip side is stuff that's already in really bad condition.
....
There's also a bunch of partial magazines. I'm not really all that against cutting up a magazine that had no covers when he got it and then had an article and a couple ads cut out years before I got it.

Steve, what you say makes perfect sense. We discussed this at length ten years ago when the infamous 'Libertyforall' seller was parting out any Spalding or Reach Guide he could get his hands on. He participated in our discussions and didn't impress anyone.

But he did learn something. Now, if you read the item descriptions for the pages from old books, you'll find that many of them state that the seller only cuts up books that are so beat up that they aren't of value whole. They are lying, but it makes the bidder feel better about bidding.

[sbfinley]

You are right. Chopping up a Ty Cobb bat and selling the splinters as part of a card also makes that bat more accessible. In fact, why don't we just do that with EVERY collectible? We could chop up all the T206 Honus Wagner cards while we're at it.

...in a perfect world where I owned all the scissors :(

That is a fair argument. In return I would argue that two are far from same in scope. A Spalding Guide, while still very much a part of the hobby's history, is minimal in magnitude. A bat once swung by Ty Cobb, used as a weapon to procure base hits by the most intense character to every play the game, is a relic of the game in its finest sense and should be preserved for the prosperity of the game's history. Collectors have entire runs of Spalding Guides resting on dusty shelves that are but a footnote of their entire collection. Collectors that own a personal artifact from Cobb, Ruth, or Gehrig know that it an important part of the history of baseball. Everything is relative, find me a dealer that will trade a Cobb gamer for a few paperbacks and I'm first in line.

[Runscott]

That is a fair argument. In return I would argue that two are far from same in scope. A Spalding Guide, while still very much a part of the hobby's history, is minimal in magnitude. A bat once swung by Ty Cobb, used as a weapon to procure base hits by the most intense character to every play the game, is a relic of the game in its finest sense and should be preserved for the prosperity of the game's history. Collectors have entire runs of Spalding Guides resting on dusty shelves that are but a footnote of their entire collection. Collectors that own a personal artifact from Cobb, Ruth, or Gehrig know that it an important part of the history of baseball. Everything is relative, find me a dealer that will trade a Cobb gamer for a few paperbacks and I'm first in line.

I didn't say they were equal - you are responding to a straw man, not me.

I don't normally talk from the straw man's perspective, but Scott was implying that neither should be chopped up.

[ethicsprof]

I remember the AAA fiasco from aeons ago, when we discussed it on this board and elsewhere. My problem with slabbing the cut-outs is that many of the
newbies low on funds and knowledge of the hobby's best wares will buy these
catalogue and magazine pieces and think they are really getting something
valuable to the vintage card hobbyist. I think Beckett would do well to continue
doing what it does well and step away from this 'new' activity.
all the best,
barry

[jcmtiger]

The only minor quibble I have with both the Beckett authentication and the listing is that it is not a guide but a page from the guide. I would like to see Beckett add "Page" at the end of their description on the first line of text on the slab. Similarly for the seller listing the piece. It is not a "card" but a "page" from the guide. Other than that minor point, I don't think there is any deception of misrepresentation of what it is. (I know, that wasn't the original question/concern)

I have a problem "destroying" complete books, but don't have (as much) of a problem pulling pages from incomplete material. So if the guide was already in pieces, pages missing or eaten, etc, I can stomach the removal of additional pages a bit more. Though my "problem" with this directly proportional to the scarcity of an item.

Yes, card in the seller description is the only problem I see. But, I would not buy it.

Joe

[Runscott]

I think Beckett would do well to continue
doing what it does well and step away from this 'new' activity.
all the best,
barry


...it's not book cut-outs
...it's not photographs

...winning arguments with Henry II?

[Bored5000]

Yes, card in the seller description is the only problem I see. But, I would not buy it.

Joe

That was why I had to look it up on Google for more information. I was pretty sure it was just a book page, but the "card" description kinda threw me at first. I always follow Shoeless Joe cards, and I knew there was no "card" like this of him out there.

[ethicsprof]

now, if they are in the business of slabbing pieces of the Constitutions of
Clarendon, I will certainly take a stab at purchasing one of those at AAA prices.
:)
all the best,
Barry

[danmckee]

I remember the AAA fiasco from aeons ago, when we discussed it on this board and elsewhere. My problem with slabbing the cut-outs is that many of the
newbies low on funds and knowledge of the hobby's best wares will buy these
catalogue and magazine pieces and think they are really getting something
valuable to the vintage card hobbyist. I think Beckett would do well to continue
doing what it does well and step away from this 'new' activity.
all the best,
barry

My thoughts exactly Barry! Thank you kindly!

[Runscott]

now, if they are in the business of slabbing pieces of the Constitutions of
Clarendon, I will certainly take a stab at purchasing one of those at AAA prices.
:)
all the best,
Barry

Only board members named Barry would have understood.

Spalding Guide to Becket: "Me - with my delicate skin. I bet you'd never have done the same for me. But - I suppose I have to do this penance and make my peace with you. Hmm. What a strange end to our story."

[travrosty]

these companies will slab anything, indicting a ham sandwich if you will. you will see michael jordan's fingernail clippings and steve garvey's belly button lint next.

[drc]

My number one philosophy is "As long as it's accurately labelled." Unlike some 'grading purists' (yes, a slightly snide term) I don't have a problem with companies holdering oddities-- including reprints, deceased celebrity drivers licenses and fans' 2010 Wrigley Stadium polaroids --, AS LONG AS the item is accurately described.

However, I don't like book pages being holdered (It's the they 'tear out of book' part I don't like, not that it's not a card) and, far more important than my ethical opinions on books pages, I think the label has to say it's a book page if its a book page.

Just my opinion.

[Fred]

Regarding the AAA cross-overs,,,,, hahahahaha :p That was too funny.


I still remember people used to get really pissed off at the clown that was encapsulating magazine pictures in those AAA holders.... I suppose Beckett has "legitimized" it and it's not so offensive now. I see no difference in what the clown with the AAA holders did. Oh, I guess I need to start referring to those guys at Becketts the same way... Oh yeah, who ever said that those clowns should add "Page" to the end of the "Spalding Guide" is absolutely right. They should even include the page number(s).

Personally, I think it's crap. I'd rather just have the entire Spalding Guide... oh yeah, that's right people don't know they're available... oops, there goes the price of Spalding Guides now....

[drc]

Agreed, "AAA cross-overs" is the laugh of the day.

[ctownboy]

Fred and others,

I have a couple of problems with these pages being graded:

1) They have been torn out of a guide.

2) By grading them, they have been "legitimized".

I have a T206 Cobb bat off shoulder that I think might grade a 3 (if I ever have it graded). If I ever do send it in and it comes back as (Authentic) the only problem I would have with that grade is the monetary difference that I could sell a card graded "3" for as compared to one graded "Authentic".

The difference, in my opinion, between my Cobb card and this page is the fact if my Cobb came back "Authentic" they would have judged the whole card and given it that grade. Whereas with this page, the are just judging one PIECE of the guide.

If they were to start grading complete guide books, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But, to me, grading ONE page (out of 100 or so in a guide) would be like me sending in a sliver of my Cobb card and asking it to be graded. Sure, I could have an "Authentic" sliver but big deal.

Having a page graded as "Authentic" by a reputable grading company just opens up yet ANOTHER can of worms for an unsuspecting collecting public.

I can see a woman spending big bucks on something like this and proudly giving it to her husband as a gift and then he sees it and is disappointed and has to explain why things like this are not really valuable or collectable (at least compared to a REAL card).

David

[Fred]

You are absolutely preaching to the choir here. I don't care what those guys do however I think it's a shame that they are going to promote tearing up nice guides, from the past, in an effort to get some business. I'm not sure if this legitimizes the pages for collectors that know what they're doing but it could add a bit of legitimacy to those that don't understand what's really going on with the page(s).

[danmckee]

You are absolutely preaching to the choir here. I don't care what those guys do however I think it's a shame that they are going to promote tearing up nice guides, from the past, in an effort to get some business. I'm not sure if this legitimizes the pages for collectors that know what they're doing but it could add a bit of legitimacy to those that don't understand what's really going on with the page(s).

Choir +1

[Exhibitman]

The item should be labeled a page from a guide.

It should not be graded because was never intended to be a stand-alone item, unlike a W card.

Otherwise, I have no issue with accurately labeled items being slabbed. As long as they fit inside the slab it isn't my place to tell the submitter what to spend money on slabbing. I've had SGC slab a number of items that don't strictly conform to the ideal of a 'card'. I had them do this promo for a Benny Leonard play and it looks great:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibitman/boxingpremiums/websize/1927%20Benny%20Leonard%20in%20The%20Battling%20But ler.jpg

I will have them do more of them when I think the item would be well preserved and displayed in a slab. I recently saw an auction [Goodwin?] that had an envelope from an early A's championship team in an SGC slab and I thought it looked great.

[pepis]

Beckett paid a lot of money to obtain a licence that allows them to legally
authenticate sports paper works, which ever kind it is! and that is all anybody
with a sound mind needs to know, really!

[Leon]

Beckett paid a lot of money to obtain a licence that allows them to legally
authenticate sports paper works, which ever kind it is! and that is all anybody
with a sound mind needs to know, really!

really? LMAO...a license to authenticate.

[Fred]

I guess the nut job that was doing AAA forgot to renew his license.... I haven't seen that garbage for a while now... or is it that I'm becoming immune to the garbage...?

[drc]

When the market dried up he sold his leftover inventory as packaging material and hamster bedding.

[Eric72]

At the very least, this piece should have been labeled as, "trimmed."

:):D:eek:

[barrysloate]

I'm not a big fan of this either. Encourages people to damage historical items, not intended to be torn apart. Also encourages attempts at misrepresenting items as "cards" to newbies.

Agree completely. If this photograph were issued as a single sheet then I would have no problem with Beckett slabbing it.

But because this practice encourages the destruction of the limited number of Spalding and Reach Guides that are still in existence, I hate it.

Edited to add you can buy an intact 1909 Spalding Guide for around $100-150, depending on condition. Why a single page is worth five times that amount is a bit of a mystery.