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GaryPassamonte
02-10-2013, 06:02 AM
With all the discussion on the board about the Atlantics CdV and whether a CdV is a "card" or not, I thought it would be a good time to post some examples. CdVs, along with tintypes, were the first widely distributed form of photography and offer a glimpse into the uniforms, equipment, etc. of the earliest days of our game.
Also, I would like opinions on the total population of baseball CdVs in existence. The most common is the 1869 Red Stockings with probably 15-20 examples. Next would be the 1870 Athletics and 1875 Hartfords with about a half dozen each. After that, I can come up with a small group with a few known. The remainder would be unique. I'm including all in existence: teams, groups, individuals, famous or not.
I've discussed this with Barry in the past, and I believe we came up with an estimate of 200-300. Barry correst me if I'm wrong.
What do you think?

barrysloate
02-10-2013, 06:28 AM
Tough to say Gary. 200-300 is a reasonable guess, but it's really hard to know. The majority, of course, feature unidentified ballplayers, so most collectors go after the ones that are the most aesthetically pleasing: great uniforms, both bats and balls present, long pants and long beards, etc. And the earlier the better.

And the one Gary pictured above, which he purchased from me via the Mark Rucker collection, is one of the earliest known.

bcbgcbrcb
02-10-2013, 07:44 AM
Definitely cards to me............

benjulmag
02-10-2013, 12:35 PM
c. 1860 Brooklyn Atlantics

drc
02-10-2013, 01:48 PM
Don't invest in them. I plan on flooding the market with my collection of 5. Though one may just be a guy holding a stick.

oldjudge
02-10-2013, 02:13 PM
Nice card Corey. Regardless of your definition, I guess that clearly eliminates the SRA card as being the first baseball card. Not that anyone who knew what they were doing thought that that CdV was the first baseball card anyway.

drc
02-10-2013, 02:23 PM
As a longtime photograph enthusiast, I've never thought a photo had to be labelled as a 'baseball card' to be good. In fact, I'm rather snooty and would take exception to people calling my photographs trading cards.

To me, I've found it rather comical that once something is called a 'baseball card' baseball card collectors are willing to pay triple the price.

triwak
02-10-2013, 02:45 PM
This brings to mind a question I've had about the 1863 Jordan & Co. Harry Wright ticket/card (coming up for auction in the Spring REA):

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2013_preview/3.html

If 150 of these were sold (according to the research), why has only 1 example surfaced? If people had paid the extra 25 cents to obtain one of these images, wouldn't more have been saved, perhaps in scrapbooks? Or does this even predate the scrapbooking era? It just seems like a relatively large number (with respect to ultra rare items), to have only one survive. Or maybe the fact that the Civil War was still raging, has something to do with it?

Also, my 2005 Standard Catalog lists George Wright instead of Sam Wright as part of this "set." Has this been corrected in later editions? I seem to recall seeing a George Wright CDV that was obviously taken in the same studio and at the same time, but did NOT have the game ticket info on the back. George apparently didn't play in the match.

Jlighter
02-10-2013, 02:56 PM
This brings to mind a question I've had about the 1863 Jordan & Co. Harry Wright ticket/card (coming up for auction in the Spring REA):

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2013_preview/3.html

If 150 of these were sold (according to the research), why has only 1 example surfaced? If people had paid the extra 25 cents to obtain one of these images, wouldn't more have been saved, perhaps in scrapbooks? Or does this even predate the scrapbooking era? It just seems like a relatively large number (with respect to ultra rare items), to have only one survive. Or maybe the fact that the Civil War was still raging, has something to do with it?

Also, my 2005 Standard Catalog lists George Wright instead of Sam Wright as part of this "set." Has this been corrected in later editions? I seem to recall seeing a George Wright CDV that was obviously taken in the same studio and at the same time, but did NOT have the game ticket info on the back. George apparently didn't play in the match.

In the preview it says less then 10 are known, but defintley more then 1. Unless your just talking about the Harry Wrighy card?

Runscott
02-10-2013, 02:57 PM
moved...no one gives a crap - my apologies for the interruption

triwak
02-10-2013, 03:04 PM
In the preview it says less then 10 are known, but defintley more then 1. Unless your just talking about the Harry Wrighy card?


Yes, I was referring to the Harry Wright card only. Supposedly, 150 of those were sold.

Robert_Lifson
02-10-2013, 03:31 PM
This brings to mind a question I've had about the 1863 Jordan & Co. Harry Wright ticket/card (coming up for auction in the Spring REA):

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2013_preview/3.html

If 150 of these were sold (according to the research), why has only 1 example surfaced? If people had paid the extra 25 cents to obtain one of these images, wouldn't more have been saved, perhaps in scrapbooks? Or does this even predate the scrapbooking era? It just seems like a relatively large number (with respect to ultra rare items), to have only one survive. Or maybe the fact that the Civil War was still raging, has something to do with it?

Also, my 2005 Standard Catalog lists George Wright instead of Sam Wright as part of this "set." Has this been corrected in later editions? I seem to recall seeing a George Wright CDV that was obviously taken in the same studio and at the same time, but did NOT have the game ticket info on the back. George apparently didn't play in the match.

Ken, we actually have found some very interesting additional information that is directly related to how many of each card was sold. The writeup in the previews is very preliminary and quite a few changes will be made incorporating additional information. We will get the more complete and accurate version (which itself may be tweaked during the next two months!) up in a couple of days.

Sincerely,

Robert Lifson

Robert Edward Auctions LLC

www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

GaryPassamonte
02-10-2013, 03:37 PM
Corey- Your Atlantics image is the best baseball CdV extant. There is no close second. It is also one of the best early baseball pieces ( I'm afraid to say card ) there is.
The lack of baseball CdVs posted on this thread leads me to believe there may be fewer than I originally estimated.

triwak
02-10-2013, 04:15 PM
Ken, we actually have found some very interesting additional information that is directly related to how many of each card was sold. The writeup in the previews is very preliminary and quite a few changes will be made incorporating additional information. We will get the more complete and accurate version (which itself may be tweaked during the next two months!) up in a couple of days.

Sincerely,

Robert Lifson

Robert Edward Auctions LLC

www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com


Thank you. Looking forward to the auction!

packs
02-10-2013, 10:09 PM
Whoops mine was a cabinet. Nevermind.

DixieBaseball
02-11-2013, 09:30 AM
Gary - Interesting Thread. (Perhaps we need to wait a few months for some other examples to trickle in) It would be great to get most all these CDV's captured on one thread. Let the counting begin... Over time the populaton may become more clear.

Here is my Southern (New Orleans) CDV from 1870. These 2 Gents as it is described on the back : 1st Line : "Southern BBC" 2nd Line : "Pitcher and 1st baseman - 2nd Nine." (See bottom for description)

(The photographer, W.W. Washburn, autographed (diagonal) the reverse with studio address stamp) --- I have yet to find any info on these 2 players, but I have not researched outside the internet. When I am down to Nola, I plan on hitting the library for some clues... A fun project I look forward to...

Edited to add :

Photo Back : WW Washburn (Autographed by Photographer)
118 Canal Street, New Orleans (Back Stamp)

Photo Back wrote in ink : Compliments of Tom Simmons or Simms and Charles D Bradenburg/ C D Bradenburg ?
New Orleans, La 5th July 1870.

Bottom 1st Line : Southern BBC
Bottom 2nd Line : Pitcher and 1st base - 2nd nine

oldjudge
02-11-2013, 11:45 AM
Good luck Jeremy. Those two could just as well be the local butcher and his brother. Anyone can write on the back at any time.

GaryPassamonte
02-11-2013, 11:51 AM
Jeremy- Here is a CdV from Richmond, Virginia from 1867. The players are listed on the reverse and it is dated. Baseball CdVs from the South are extremely rare. I only know of two, the one I posted and one in Mark Rucker's CdV book. I also have one with a child holding a bat from Atlanta. If you count that there are three I know of.

DixieBaseball
02-11-2013, 12:05 PM
Good luck Jeremy. Those two could just as well be the local butcher and his brother. Anyone can write on the back at any time.

Jay - I get what you are saying and have had similar thought. (Where's the fountain pen expert ? :))

Could the ink or style of writing be sampled scientifically to determine period ?

I don't see any real advantage for someone to write this post date on the reverse. Is it possible ? Sure, but this is not mainstream, not a popular player, etc. --- There really is no incentive to do this in my opinion, so would someone do this for the heck of it ? Seems like a waste of time to me, but if that is a meat cleaver in his pocket, then your guess might be a good one.

GaryPassamonte
02-11-2013, 12:06 PM
Here is the child with a bat. This is a very early, Civil War era CdV taken in Atlanta.

Runscott
02-11-2013, 12:19 PM
Jay - I get what you are saying and have had similar thought. (Where's the fountain pen expert ? :)

Could the ink or style of writing be sampled scientifically to determine period ?

I don't see any real advantage for someone to write this post date on the reverse. Is it possible - sure, but it's value is minimal anyway. Not mainstream, not a popular player, etc. --- There really is no incentive to do this in my opinion, so would someone do this for the heck of it ? Seems like a waste of time to me, but if that is a meat cleaver in his pocket, then your guess might be a good one.

I would have written '1st nine' rather than '2nd'.

DixieBaseball
02-11-2013, 12:50 PM
Jeremy- Here is a CdV from Richmond, Virginia from 1867. The players are listed on the reverse and it is dated. Baseball CdVs from the South are extremely rare. I only know of two, the one I posted and one in Mark Rucker's CdV book. I also have one with a child holding a bat from Atlanta. If you count that there are three I know of.

Gary - Thanks for sharing - Could you show a scan of the reverse ? I am intrigued by these rascals.

Jlighter
02-11-2013, 12:50 PM
There's a bunch in the next Legendary Auction.

DixieBaseball
02-11-2013, 01:23 PM
I would have written '1st nine' rather than '2nd'.


Scott - When I look at the photo, the guy on the left looks like a pitcher and the guy on the right looks like a Manager (Hand on back) or possibly a butcher. Perhaps that is why he is on the 2nd nine. Nothing like being a back up player...

Runscott
02-11-2013, 01:47 PM
Scott - When I look at the photo, the guy on the left looks like a pitcher and the guy on the right looks like a Manager (Hand on back) or possibly a butcher. Perhaps that is why he is on the 2nd nine. Nothing like being a back up player...

I was generally 3rd nine, so these guys are impressive to me.

I agree with you - using common sense, there's no reason to think the writing on the back isn't accurate. Kind of strange in our hobby when it comes to using common sense - we'll let an item slide as 'okay' when common sense says to ask questions, but we'll analyze the hell out of something that common sense says there's no incentive for anyone to have messed with it.

Runscott
02-11-2013, 01:50 PM
Scott - When I look at the photo, the guy on the left looks like a pitcher and the guy on the right looks like a Manager (Hand on back) or possibly a butcher. Perhaps that is why he is on the 2nd nine. Nothing like being a back up player...

I recently wrote an article about a semi-pro baseball team whose star player was a butcher. I'm hoping this will help when I do future interviews - there have to be a few old folks around who remember buying meat from him when they were younger.

drc
02-11-2013, 02:26 PM
I think they were spies posing as baseball players in street clothes.

If you wanted, you could get an educated opinion on the age of the writing. A historical autograph expert/veteran might be able to give you an opinion.

DixieBaseball
02-11-2013, 04:38 PM
DRC - Thanks for the info... I am sure I will move that direction. If these names are correct, perhaps I can scrub to find the death certificates, confirm the name and then work my way back once I know the names on the reverse are accurate. I have no idea how good the record keeping in NO is in 1870. Should be fun research.

Photo Back : WW Washburn (Autographed by Photographer)
118 Canal Street, New Orleans (Back Stamp)

Photo Back wrote in ink : Compliments of Tom Simmons or Simms and Charles D Bradenburg/ C D Bradenburg ?
New Orleans, La 5th July 1870.

Bottom 1st Line : Southern BBC
Bottom 2nd Line : Pitcher and 1st base - 2nd nine

sb1
02-11-2013, 08:16 PM
There is a 19 year old Charles Brandenburg in NO in 1870, there are several Thomas Simms in Lousiana during that time.

Kenny Cole
02-11-2013, 08:22 PM
This is the only one I have.

triwak
02-12-2013, 02:03 AM
This is the only one I have.

That is the only one you need!!! Always love seeing that George Wright, Kenny. You have me to thank for upping the auction price on that one a little!

GaryPassamonte
02-12-2013, 06:11 AM
Population update. I can come up with between 325 and 350 baseball CdVs located in various collections, libraries, and museums, excluding the HOF. It would seem my original estimate was low. A number of 400-500 seems more realistic at this point. Thanks to the board members who have corresponded with me so far.

Kenny Cole
02-12-2013, 07:40 AM
You have me to thank for upping the auction price on that one a little!

Well, as long as my wife doesn't find out what the final hammer price was, all is good. :)

DixieBaseball
02-12-2013, 11:24 AM
There is a 19 year old Charles Brandenburg in NO in 1870, there are several Thomas Simms in Lousiana during that time.

Thank you Scott for the info/research. It has allowed me to differentiate between Script letters (as well) on the reverse and actually draw some correlation from the possibility of that name and what is written at the bottom... "Southern BBC" -- C D Bradenburg... Also, I am finding through research on the 19th Century Baseball Teams & Tours Website that in 1870 the Cincy Club was on a Red Stockings Tour and played the Southern BBC of New Orleans. That may be a huge hint for me to figure out who these 2 players were... If the reverse is correct - Southern BBC, it is all starting to add up. Still lots of research to do, but I have some direction now. Appreciate your time & help!

A huge hint - Thank you,

JJ

sb1
02-12-2013, 12:53 PM
a couple from our upcoming auction, the colorized one with the adhesive stamp of the photographer is especially interesting.

Runscott
02-12-2013, 01:36 PM
I only have one - of a child cricket player - but I guess any 1860's cdv's that do not show baseball equipment or i.d. the subject to baseball, could be cricket players.

drc
02-12-2013, 01:49 PM
Never speculate about a bigger man's cards. The Mike Piazza rule.

bcbgcbrcb
02-12-2013, 01:57 PM
Sorry, Kenny, that you are one of the less fortunate to ONLY have a George Wright CDV.........

smokelessjoe
02-12-2013, 02:01 PM
Not sure if this helps any... Here are some articles about the Southern BBC... One refers to the 2nd nine...

smokelessjoe
02-12-2013, 04:38 PM
Just found this... Talks about your two guys... Brandenburg & Sims..

This is from S. Derby Gisclairs web-site neworleans baseball. He is a member of the Society of American Baseball Research (SABR). Here is a link: Lots of stuff on the Souther BBC.

http://www.neworleansbaseball.com/articles/earlybaseball.html


The playing of the Mandeville Club was good, particularly on the infield. John Angell, on the first base, and Pijon, on second, deserve especial mention, both gentlemen making excellent stops

and many good throws. Brandenburg, Sims, Waterman, and Brother of the Southern played their respective positions excellently well. A neat fly catch by Jones on the eighth inning elicited great applause and was well deserved.
To Mr. B. Philipert, the gentlemanly proprietor of the restaurant at Mandeville, the club desire to return thanks for his attentions, and for the excellent viands prepared by him and enjoyed by them.
Tom Dunn, the prince of barkeepers, did all in his power to add to the pleasure of our Southerns on their trip. He furnished the best of spiritual comfort from his well stocked bar on steamer Camellia, and by his urbanity and social manners won the favor of the Southerns, by whom he will long be remembered.
The following is the score of the game:
Southern
Mandeville

Umpire H.C. Johnson of the R.E. Lee Club
Scorers Jas. J. Wall of Southern, Mr. Sherwood of Mandeville Club

sb1
02-12-2013, 07:16 PM
I only have one - of a child cricket player - but I guess any 1860's cdv's that do not show baseball equipment or i.d. the subject to baseball, could be cricket players.

I guess these could be cricket players, I have yet to do any research on them, just got them in. My first thought is that cricket would have been much more popular on the east coast than Chicago???

I have found Allaire in Chicago census data and will try to narrow down a club affilliation. ANY input on these is accepted and appreciated.

Runscott
02-12-2013, 08:05 PM
I guess these could be cricket players, I have yet to do any research on them, just got them in. My first thought is that cricket would have been much more popular on the east coast than Chicago???

I have found Allaire in Chicago census data and will try to narrow down a club affilliation. ANY input on these is accepted and appreciated.

I wouldn't expect to see any cricket photos out of Chicago - I assumed yours were baseball players.

I had a great team cdv of cricket players (East coast) that I sold or traded to a board member many years ago - it did look just like a baseball team, except for the cricket paddles.

DixieBaseball
02-13-2013, 12:55 AM
Just found this... Talks about your two guys... Brandenburg & Sims..

This is from S. Derby Gisclairs web-site neworleans baseball. He is a member of the Society of American Baseball Research (SABR). Here is a link: Lots of stuff on the Souther BBC.

http://www.neworleansbaseball.com/articles/earlybaseball.html


The playing of the Mandeville Club was good, particularly on the infield. John Angell, on the first base, and Pijon, on second, deserve especial mention, both gentlemen making excellent stops

and many good throws. Brandenburg, Sims, Waterman, and Brother of the Southern played their respective positions excellently well. A neat fly catch by Jones on the eighth inning elicited great applause and was well deserved.
To Mr. B. Philipert, the gentlemanly proprietor of the restaurant at Mandeville, the club desire to return thanks for his attentions, and for the excellent viands prepared by him and enjoyed by them.
Tom Dunn, the prince of barkeepers, did all in his power to add to the pleasure of our Southerns on their trip. He furnished the best of spiritual comfort from his well stocked bar on steamer Camellia, and by his urbanity and social manners won the favor of the Southerns, by whom he will long be remembered.
The following is the score of the game:
Southern
Mandeville

Umpire H.C. Johnson of the R.E. Lee Club
Scorers Jas. J. Wall of Southern, Mr. Sherwood of Mandeville Club

-Shawn - Incredible Info Find! You solved the mystery of this Southern BB CDV. I have been on the road all day and just sat down to curl up with some Net 54, and much to my surprise, the mystery is already solved! Thank you so much for taking the time to help out. Very Much appreciated - BTW - I contacted Mr. Gisclairs a few times last year re/ the CDV and we exchanged emails re/ the info, but couldn't get very far due to the names being incorrect. Thanks again to Scott B. for breaking the seal on those names. (That was huge)

-Gary - May we add another CDV to the short list of known Southern CDV's?

GaryPassamonte
02-13-2013, 04:51 AM
Jeremy- There is no reason to doubt the legitimacy of the notations on the reverse of your CdV. Yes, it is a baseball CdV depicting Southern players in street clothes.