1886/87 Old Judge Script Issue Spotted Ties

[JJ McGraw]

Hi All......I need some help figuring out what these are. Today I recd a copy of the wonderful book "The Photographic Baseball Cards of Goodwin and Co." by Miller, Gonsowski and Masson. As I start to look throught this magnificent book, the images of two NY Met players catch my eye...they look "familiar" to me.
Recently, I'm moving and redoing the baseball room (new wood floors,etc) and I'm making it more heavily Giants and pre WW1 baseball. In my collection of NY Giants images I have a few 19th century pieces. Two (or so I was told when I bought them years ago) were cabinet cards measuring 4 1/8 x 6 1/2 inches, with nice gold borders taken by J. Wood Photo (Studio) at 208 Bowery in NY.
Again, the seller told me they were images of NY Giants from 1886. I knew they were on the same team with the same "spotted ties" round their necks. Someone, in pencil years ago, had written each man's name.

One he wrote: E. E. Foster
The other: E. L. Cushman

So the years past, they were displayed with the Giants and all was great.(this was ahead of the internet)

Back to the book today. So on page 24 it shows the subset of the Script Series called "Spotted Ties" and there are my "Giants".......

E.L. Cushman (Ed)
E. F. Foster (Elmer Ellsworth)

I then proceed to look them up on the internet.

Cushman was a pitcher who played for the :
Buffalo Bisons(1883)
Mil Brewers(1884)
Phil Athletics(1885)
NY Metropolitans(Time frame of image 1885-1887)
Toledo Maumees(1890)

Foster actually did play for the Giants along with the Mets and the Colts from 1886-1891 as second baseman and centerfielder. But again, the image I have is of him as a Met.

So the question is...are these the original studio portraits of these cards on page 24? They obviously are not baseball cards of any type as they have no advertizing on them whatsoever.

I guess the guy who sold them to me all those years ago really had no idea what they really were...and that is no slight against him. Now with such great research books out there and the internet it is a lot easier to ID things etc.

So, any help on these would be very much appreciated. I love anything baseball pre-WWI and one of them did play for the Giants so it is all good. Thanks in advance, Mike

[oldjudge]

Jos Wood took the photographs that were used by Goodwin & Co in the spotted tie subset. The two cabinets that you have were from a team shoot of the 1886 Metropolitans, NY's American Association representative. Not every player whose photograph was taken made it into the spotted ties subset. I have an identical cabinet of Dude Esterbrook. He was on the Mets when these photos were taken, but was traded to the Giants before the issue of the spotted ties (solely a Mets issue). Because of this he does not have a spotted tie card.

[JJ McGraw]

Thank you, that is great information. That was my thought that these were the photos from the shoot for the cards. What would you estimate the value of these? The Cushman does have a complete border...that is me not placing them well when scanning. Thanks again, Mike

[oldjudge]

My guess (and it is a guess) as to value would be $1500-$2500 each.

[JJ McGraw]

That is the range I figured as there must not be as many of these out there as the cards themselves and again, they are the images the card used. I guess I'll need to hunt around for each players card to compliment this set of 2. Again, thanks for your info on all fronts, Mike

[triwak]

Many collectors (myself included) would consider these two items "cards." It's a very gray area prior to 1887, and sometimes CDVs and Studio Cabinets are the only way to obtain certain early players. Plus, they are cool as sh*t!!! Nice cards, Man!

[RCMcKenzie]

I also think that these are "baseball cards". Since you don't really collect Mets cards anyway, you could consign it to B & L and we can see what it goes for...

cheers

[Joe_G.]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for posting. I personally enjoy Studio Proofs and believe they are a better bargain than many alternatives. If you haven't already, take a look at Apendix 4 in the book (page 452). You'll see Joseph Wood is already listed as the photographer for the 1886 New York Mets. There were a couple other sets that made use of the Spotted Tie photos including G&B and the Yum Yums. I do believe Cushman and Foster do not appear in those sets however.

Many of the images can be see here:

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.aspx?cat=1&set=491&userset=1190

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/set.aspx?cat=1&set=490&userset=1188

[JJ McGraw]

Thanks Ken and RC.....I think they are great as well, especially now that I know "what" they are. I see everyone's point and agree, they are baseball cards for all intent and purposes.

Thank you Joe, not only for the great info, but for putting out a fantastic research book. Without your great reference source, I would have just thought these were two cabinets of early 1880's Giants. I wonder if the guy who sold them to me (a card dealer thru SCD Digest about 18-20 yrs ago) really knew what they were?

Upon reading your comments ,I immediately went to that appendix on photographers and I agree, these images, when compared to my N172 Ward , Murphy or others are a lot clearer image, as you say, as they are generation "1".
I'm glad everyone is enjoying the cards. My Old Judge collection is small, I have focused mainly on T205's and T 206's, but I enjoy what I have and may try to find the Old Judge card counterpart to these cabinets, although I'm sure they will be dear. Being new to the site , I'm enjoying the extreme helpfulness and joy others show for each others collections. Thanks guys! Mike

[Joe_G.]

The pleasure is all ours, thank you for posting Mike. The first reply, "oldjudge", is actually Jay Miller. So you have two of the authors here. Another couple examples of issues that made use of some Spotted Tie photos would be the Police Gazette & K-Bat sets. Neither of the following are mine, simply taken from Robert Edwards Auction site.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2012images/Item_21680_1.jpg

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2011images/Item_18305_1.jpg

[Joe_G.]

And a Cushman K-Bat from Heritage (a unique card that sold for just over $14k in late 2011).

http://images.ha.com/lf?set=path%5B7%2F1%2F2%2F3%2F7123416%5D%2Csizedat a%5B450x2000%5D&call=url%5Bfile%3Aproduct.chain%5D