the 'stache
12-20-2012, 10:46 AM
First of all (and a few days early, obviously), a most heartfelt Merry Christmas to everybody here on the forum!!!
From Thanksgiving to New Year's Day is my favorite time of the year, so I am in heaven right now! Because of my back/bone issues, I actually live with my family right now (not easy at 41), but the whole house smells like Christmas because of my mom's candles, decorations, holiday cooking, etc. So I am in a great mood!!
Ok, now to the reason for this thread. I hope it will also help serve as a reference for those that follow behind me and start graded vintage card collections.
Soon I will be buying my first PSA graded vintage card. I have it narrowed down to a few cards, and within the next few weeks, I am going to be jumping in feet first (more on that later). But what I am wanting to discuss with this topic is spotting not only fake cards, but faked slabs with real cards inside.
I have read the tutorial here on detecting forged and altered cards. I have my ruler, black light and my jeweler's loupe ready to go (Benny Hill salute!). And I have examined more than a few cards up close, though typically, these have been modern cards (Bowman Chrome autos mostly), and examinations have been more to determine the quality of the card, and not the authenticity. I have purchased a few vintage cards in my time. Typically what I will do when investing in a nice vintage card is to buy a much less expensive (think common or semi-star) card of the same year...one that would not likely be faked, and when I receive my card, I carefully compare my new card to the common. Under magnification, I compare the card stock, the ink/printing method, etc. I measure the card, and look over both the front and back for any inconsistencies. Now, the vintage cards I've bought haven't been super expensive ($100 for a '71 Clemente, $120 for a 1981 Joe Montana, etc), but I want to establish good habits. Better to cut my teeth on these than something more substantial.
Now, when looking at PSA graded cards, not only do I have to examine the card itself, now I have to consider the slab and flip themselves. I can examine the card itself to a point (I can't feel it, but I can still look at the ink, the card stock, etc). But to be honest guys, I am scared shitless that I'm going to get a really nice card, look it over, examine the card, the flip, the 21 year old hottie sunbathing in the back yard next door...and still find out 10 years from now that I got duped. I want the equivalency of a PhD for buying vintage cards, and I am asking all of you to be like little college professors! :D And if you all will help me, I would like to create a really in depth "article", so to speak, on my website (where my card collection will be displayed) to help other people in my shoes learn, and protect themselves. I am honest to a fault, and I loathe scammers. Education might not completely protect me, but I want the best knowledge available.
In my research, I found a nice thread on the Collectors Universe Forum. It's not long (and I'm sure some of you have seen it), but it covers the history of the PSA flip (and slab).
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=846031
When I first started collecting again about a year and a half ago, and learned that there were companies that actually graded and encapsulated cards, I was really happy at first. I could safely go on Ebay, price a particular card, spend x amount of dollars, and be guaranteed that the card was authentic, and met a certain criteria for quality. It was only after I started reading, and interacting with other collectors, that I learned of the scammers out there. I read how cases could be popped. I cringed when I read how people tried to fake the flip itself, and were selling off fake cards, in fake slabs with fake flips (but real PSA serial numbers). My heart sank. But I wasn't going to let these idiots deter me from pursuing my collection. It is giving me too much pleasure.
That topic covers the variations in the flip, and the case itself. The typography has changed quite a few times since PSA first graded that Honus Wagner. The slab, too, has changed, as PSA added their logo to the bottom of the case itself. But this is where you guys come in.
People apparently make these same plastic cases. They have figured out how to make flips that, at least at first glance, could pass for real. And the slabs can be cracked without leaving any of the "frosting" that PSA swears makes the case "tamper evident". I know to look for this, and I know that you can feel the rigidity of the case itself. But if the case and flip can be faked so well, what do I do? How do you guys buy PSA-graded cards, and know definitively that you have a legit card, and legit case?
Do you all actually examine the card itself to see if it lives up to the grade that PSA has given it? In other words, say you buy a 1953 Bowman Stan Musial, PSA 7. What do you do to look over the card and case to make sure that somebody didn't crack the case, pop out the graded card, and slide a '53 Bowman Stan Musial "6"? Because if some unscrupulous person were to do that, they would get the money for a 7 (on a 6 card), and they'd be free to send it in again for another real slab.
What do I look for guys? I mean, if I sit in a pitch black room with my black light and whatever vintage card I buy, will I better see evidence of tampering than I would if I looked it over in normal light? These are the kinds of things I'm looking to learn. If you've found articles online that are germane to this topic, something that has helped you, please...share it here.
Help me, and let's help out future board members, too. Obviously we're not going to limit the discussion to PSA. SGC and Beckett, too. BGS/BVG slabs might be nigh impossible to pop, but I'm sure somebody will figure it out. Why? There's money to be made by these shady characters if they can figure out how to do it.
What other tools do you all use in examining a card inside a slab, or the slab itself? What should I be looking at more on the flip, the white space between the letters (the kerning), the typeography itself, the red border...? How carefully do I need to look at the back of the flip? Can the hologram back be removed and added to a fake flip?
I don't want to take anything for granted. Even a little bit of input could be very helpful.
Have at it, gang, and thank you all in advance!
From Thanksgiving to New Year's Day is my favorite time of the year, so I am in heaven right now! Because of my back/bone issues, I actually live with my family right now (not easy at 41), but the whole house smells like Christmas because of my mom's candles, decorations, holiday cooking, etc. So I am in a great mood!!
Ok, now to the reason for this thread. I hope it will also help serve as a reference for those that follow behind me and start graded vintage card collections.
Soon I will be buying my first PSA graded vintage card. I have it narrowed down to a few cards, and within the next few weeks, I am going to be jumping in feet first (more on that later). But what I am wanting to discuss with this topic is spotting not only fake cards, but faked slabs with real cards inside.
I have read the tutorial here on detecting forged and altered cards. I have my ruler, black light and my jeweler's loupe ready to go (Benny Hill salute!). And I have examined more than a few cards up close, though typically, these have been modern cards (Bowman Chrome autos mostly), and examinations have been more to determine the quality of the card, and not the authenticity. I have purchased a few vintage cards in my time. Typically what I will do when investing in a nice vintage card is to buy a much less expensive (think common or semi-star) card of the same year...one that would not likely be faked, and when I receive my card, I carefully compare my new card to the common. Under magnification, I compare the card stock, the ink/printing method, etc. I measure the card, and look over both the front and back for any inconsistencies. Now, the vintage cards I've bought haven't been super expensive ($100 for a '71 Clemente, $120 for a 1981 Joe Montana, etc), but I want to establish good habits. Better to cut my teeth on these than something more substantial.
Now, when looking at PSA graded cards, not only do I have to examine the card itself, now I have to consider the slab and flip themselves. I can examine the card itself to a point (I can't feel it, but I can still look at the ink, the card stock, etc). But to be honest guys, I am scared shitless that I'm going to get a really nice card, look it over, examine the card, the flip, the 21 year old hottie sunbathing in the back yard next door...and still find out 10 years from now that I got duped. I want the equivalency of a PhD for buying vintage cards, and I am asking all of you to be like little college professors! :D And if you all will help me, I would like to create a really in depth "article", so to speak, on my website (where my card collection will be displayed) to help other people in my shoes learn, and protect themselves. I am honest to a fault, and I loathe scammers. Education might not completely protect me, but I want the best knowledge available.
In my research, I found a nice thread on the Collectors Universe Forum. It's not long (and I'm sure some of you have seen it), but it covers the history of the PSA flip (and slab).
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=846031
When I first started collecting again about a year and a half ago, and learned that there were companies that actually graded and encapsulated cards, I was really happy at first. I could safely go on Ebay, price a particular card, spend x amount of dollars, and be guaranteed that the card was authentic, and met a certain criteria for quality. It was only after I started reading, and interacting with other collectors, that I learned of the scammers out there. I read how cases could be popped. I cringed when I read how people tried to fake the flip itself, and were selling off fake cards, in fake slabs with fake flips (but real PSA serial numbers). My heart sank. But I wasn't going to let these idiots deter me from pursuing my collection. It is giving me too much pleasure.
That topic covers the variations in the flip, and the case itself. The typography has changed quite a few times since PSA first graded that Honus Wagner. The slab, too, has changed, as PSA added their logo to the bottom of the case itself. But this is where you guys come in.
People apparently make these same plastic cases. They have figured out how to make flips that, at least at first glance, could pass for real. And the slabs can be cracked without leaving any of the "frosting" that PSA swears makes the case "tamper evident". I know to look for this, and I know that you can feel the rigidity of the case itself. But if the case and flip can be faked so well, what do I do? How do you guys buy PSA-graded cards, and know definitively that you have a legit card, and legit case?
Do you all actually examine the card itself to see if it lives up to the grade that PSA has given it? In other words, say you buy a 1953 Bowman Stan Musial, PSA 7. What do you do to look over the card and case to make sure that somebody didn't crack the case, pop out the graded card, and slide a '53 Bowman Stan Musial "6"? Because if some unscrupulous person were to do that, they would get the money for a 7 (on a 6 card), and they'd be free to send it in again for another real slab.
What do I look for guys? I mean, if I sit in a pitch black room with my black light and whatever vintage card I buy, will I better see evidence of tampering than I would if I looked it over in normal light? These are the kinds of things I'm looking to learn. If you've found articles online that are germane to this topic, something that has helped you, please...share it here.
Help me, and let's help out future board members, too. Obviously we're not going to limit the discussion to PSA. SGC and Beckett, too. BGS/BVG slabs might be nigh impossible to pop, but I'm sure somebody will figure it out. Why? There's money to be made by these shady characters if they can figure out how to do it.
What other tools do you all use in examining a card inside a slab, or the slab itself? What should I be looking at more on the flip, the white space between the letters (the kerning), the typeography itself, the red border...? How carefully do I need to look at the back of the flip? Can the hologram back be removed and added to a fake flip?
I don't want to take anything for granted. Even a little bit of input could be very helpful.
Have at it, gang, and thank you all in advance!