Willie Mays TTM Question

[JollyElm]

I have a few Willie Mays cards that I got signed through the mail around 30 years ago (late 70's/early 80's) and I've read time and time again that Willie's wife signed all(?) autographs that arrived TTM in those days. So I decided to search around the web to see if I could find out why this fact is so readily accepted in the hobby.

Well, it seems the statement that Mrs. Mays signed everything is parroted over and over again by countless people (and in a bunch of old Net54 threads, too) without anyone ever giving any kind of concrete evidence or pointing to anything that corroborates this apparent 'fact.' It's really begun to frustrate me, so I ask the experts around here. Can anyone point out any actual evidence that proves this is, indeed, the case? I'm not talking about supposition, because all I see on the web is supposition. I would like something to help clarify this whole situation for me and any push in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

I do know the TTM sig's are different from what you see all over the place these days, but I also see a lot of similarities in the two sets of signatures (old TTM's & more recent authenticated autographs) that could certainly point to the same person signing both. The big difference being the more recent ones are in no way nearly as ornate/flamboyant as the TTM's. But there could be many reasons for that. Just look at how much Mickey Mantle's signature changed from his early years in pro ball.

Can anyone help me determine why Mays TTM's are so blatantly discounted and direct me to where I can find actual facts about this topic?? I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

[MooseDog]

The collecting of autographs is often a matter of faith. To collect well, though, one needs to become a student of handwriting and pens, inks, and papers.

In a nutshell, you can NEVER be sure of a TTM signature since you didn't see who or what (autopen) actually signed it.

With experience, especially if one also gets autographs in person, one begins to develop a knack for spotting different traits in signatures. When comparing TTM signatures with known IP signatures, suspicions can arise.

In the past, the only way to really get a handle on these things was discussions with similarly inclined collectors. It's much easier these days with message boards like this to get opinions from knowledgeable collectors.

I don't know if this is a case of fact for Mays, but I've seen people actually ask for signatures from players wives and girlfriends after games. It would be a simple matter if someone has a Mae Mays signature to compare it with the Willie TTMs.

[scmavl]

If you can read all of the letters, it's secreterial.

[whitehse]

I have posted this Mays before as I received this as a TTM in the late 70's. It is generally accepted thatthis is a spouse signature although I have seen a few in a JSA slab stating otherwise.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/mchenrycards/sportscards/musialmays001.jpg

[JollyElm]

I have posted this Mays before as I received this as a TTM in the late 70's. It is generally accepted thatthis is a spouse signature although I have seen a few in a JSA slab stating otherwise.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/mchenrycards/sportscards/musialmays001.jpg

Hey Andrew,
That's precisely my point. It is 'generally accepted' to be a spouse signature while other people say Willie signed it himself. I still never see any sort of evidence that points to Mrs. Mays signing for him, not even a single statement such as, "Willie said in a 1978 interview that his wife signs all autograph requests received through the mail." Nothing. Nada.

Yet the same people state over and over again **as fact** that it's the case. It seems to have the same level of validity that any urban legend has.

[Deertick]

Hey Andrew,
That's precisely my point. It is 'generally accepted' to be a spouse signature while other people say Willie signed it himself. I still never see any sort of evidence that points to Mrs. Mays signing for him, not even a single statement such as, "Willie said in a 1978 interview that his wife signs all autograph requests received through the mail." Nothing. Nada.

Yet the same people state over and over again **as fact** that it's the case. It seems to have the same level of validity that any urban legend has.

I understand your point of not having a 'smoking gun' that establishes the contention as fact. One may exisit, as some of the longtime dealers here have yet to weigh in.

However, I cannot recall that I have ever seen that signature reputably attributed to Willie. Especially in a sharpie. He did have a more 'traditional' autograph early on in his career, though not as flamboyant as above. I have often seen the above described as a non-malicious forgery (secretarial, clubhouse, wife, agent, etc). Slabbed or not, real is real, forged is forged.

My methodology? I examine against known good, and stay away from variations if at all possible. MANY players vary WAY too much for me to be comfortable identifying on my own. That's when I put my trust in smarter people. :)

[Scott Garner]

Has anyone ever seen the version of the TTM Willie Mays sig on a legit Giants team ball? Personally, I have not.
I would suggest that perhaps this is your "smoking gun" that you are looking for, FWIW.

Food for thought....

[JollyElm]

Has anyone ever seen the version of the TTM Willie Mays sig on a legit Giants team ball? Personally, I have not.
I would suggest that perhaps this is your "smoking gun" that you are looking for, FWIW.

Food for thought....

This ball is a 1956 Giants ball signed by the team. It's not mine, so I don't know if it was signed in that year or over a long period of time. Willie's signature looks very much (in style and execution) like all the TTM's that people love to say were signed by his wife. If he signed this ball himself, then I would absolutely say he signed my TTM cards while Mrs. Mays was baking cookies.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee404/JollyElm/6404371903p.jpg

[Scott Garner]

This ball is a 1956 Giants ball signed by the team. It's not mine, so I don't know if it was signed in that year or over a long period of time. Willie's signature looks very much (in style and execution) like all the TTM's that people love to say were signed by his wife. If he signed this ball himself, then I would absolutely say he signed my TTM cards while Mrs. Mays was baking cookies.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee404/JollyElm/6404371903p.jpg

Interesting...

[scmavl]

I noticed a similar auto on Willie's '67 Topps card but no one weighed in on it... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=159281

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I noticed a similar auto on Willie's '67 Topps card but no one weighed in on it... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=159281

Interesting

[yanks12025]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BASEBALL-SIGNED-BY-WILLIE-MAYS-HANK-AARON-MAURY-WILLS-GUARANTEED-TO-GRADE-70s-/261140008543?pt=US_Autographs&hash=item3ccd284e5f

[whitehse]

I have seen various Mays autographs that looked like the one I posted but always thought they were spouse autos even after seeing the exact same auto slabbed in a JSA tomb. After seeing some of these other examples that have been posted, well honestly I am now confused.

MAybe a few of our authenticators can chime in

[thecatspajamas]

Rather than asking, "Can anyone PROVE these were signed by Mays' wife," how about the more direct "has anybody ever witnessed Willie Mays signing "TTM style" for an in-person signature?" Clearly, he doesn't sign that way now, but you would need a witnessed in-person "TTM-style" signature to really do the debunking you're shooting for. I'm not making an assertion for either side of the argument, but without that witnessed signature, you're chasing your tail trying to use TPA-authenticated examples to prove or disprove an un-witnessed signing.

[John V]

I told my son about this thread, so we decided to rummage through the attic for his TTM autograph collection. This one is from 1989. We would appreciate opinions relative to it being signed by Willie, his wife, other, etc.
Thanks, John

[JimStinson]

Hey Andrew,
That's precisely my point. It is 'generally accepted' to be a spouse signature while other people say Willie signed it himself. I still never see any sort of evidence that points to Mrs. Mays signing for him, not even a single statement such as, "Willie said in a 1978 interview that his wife signs all autograph requests received through the mail." Nothing. Nada.

Yet the same people state over and over again **as fact** that it's the case. It seems to have the same level of validity that any urban legend has.

For what its worth on the TTM Mays I don;t know if his wife signed em, His neighbor or the mail man, but he didn't. Mays requests in the 1980's usually came back really fast , so we mailed requests knowing he was on the road , and bingo they came right back. So maybe he took a red eye flight home to sign his mail because he loved his fans so much or maybe someone else was signing for him.

We did the same with O.J. Simpson who always SWORE in interviews he signed all his fan mail and well....he didn't, Unless he could be in two places at at the same time very quickly........mmmm, maybe !!! :)
Also Sonny Liston's wife who for a FACT signed TTM for him insisted her entire life that she never signed for him.
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

Also I have nothing but ultimate respect for Willie Mays and still consider him to be quite possibly the greatest baseball player who ever lived..... But back in the days when I used to set up at card shows and usually be right next to the signing guest who often happened to be Willie Mays , he ABSOLUTELY detested sitting there and signing autographs and he was being paid for it.

He rarely if ever even looked up and could not wait to leave. So its almost impossible to imagine this same person sitting down at home IN HIS SPARE TIME FOR FREE and signing a MOUNTAIN of fan mail every day. Its just not realistic.
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[dgo71]

Unless he could be in two places at at the same time very quickly........mmmm, maybe !!! :)


Wait, so OJ wasn't being entirely honest??? That would explain a lot! :)


He rarely if ever even looked up and could not wait to leave. So its almost impossible to imagine this same person sitting down at home IN HIS SPARE TIME FOR FREE and signing a MOUNTAIN of fan mail every day. Its just not realistic.


+1.

[JimStinson]

I thought it was a little wierd when ...after the trial OJ promised at the interview he would find the REAL killer and then had all the mirrors removed from his home

To this day when a waitress asks me if I want OJ with my breakfast I automatically shout GUILTY !!!!!

But the funniest part is he finally went to jail for trying to take back OJ Simpson memorabilia which by the best calcuations I can figure I could not give away for FREE.....What a country !
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

...............

[kards]

Here is the Willie Mays TTM my father received back in the late 70's, notice that it says Best Wishes above Willie Mays and if you look closer you can see that the marker wasn't working and whom ever signed it had to use another marker. I compared the Best Wishes to the ones on the Mays section of http://www.psaautographfacts.com/ and they seem to match the first three with the "Best Wishes" on them to a certain point.

I am not an expert, this is only MY opinion.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx39/booduh72/maysttm_zps19b37af1.jpg