T206 "printer's mark" and sheet layouts

[t206hound]

Just got this card in the mail today. I noticed the mark when I bid on the item (and full disclosure, I do plan on reselling it). The card measures about 1/32" wider than standard and the back is also mis-aligned (skewed right).

This mark appears to be a 'guide' line for cutting the sheet. The amount of space between the line and the back art is the exact width of a 'properly' centered and cut Piedmont.

Can we assume that Arndt was on the far right of the sheet in the layout? Does anyone else have examples of these lines?

[Abravefan11]

Can we assume that Arndt was on the far right of the sheet in the layout?

Yes, IMO.

[z28jd]

Others. Piedmont with other stuff on the back is Bresnahan, batting. The other one I think is Oldring, fielding. Not 100% sure, sorry about the miscuts in the scan, it is the bottom right of the Sweet Caporal back

[steve B]

Can we assume that Arndt was on the far right of the sheet in the layout? Does anyone else have examples of these lines?

That would be the most likely thing. It's also probably likely that that card was the top right corner.

Steve B

[Texxxx]

May be top right not just right side.
Looks like we have a match set.

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af266/Texxxx58/Arndt.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af266/Texxxx58/Printerror003.jpg

[Jantz]

Hi Er!ck

I follow these crop lines on T206s closely. Arndt is one of the usual suspects when it comes to these crop lines.

There are a handful of other T206 player's cards that also occasionally display them too.

Some even jump to different backs. By that I mean, I own an Arndt with a Sovereign 350 back that has crop line.

So far I've seen these crop lines appear on the following backs.

Sweet Cap. 150
Sweet Cap. 350
Piedmont 150
Piedmont 350
Polar Bear
Sovereign 350

As far as individual players, I know of 15 different players in the set with crop lines.


Jantz

[atx840]

Nice card Erick, I was watching that one and missed sniping it. Great pickup sir.

[mrvster]

:)hey guys as you know been chasing crops for years.....i own a few and they are cool novelties, johnnny d got me started on them when i missed his oldring;).....ive paid $20- $150.00 for some.....they are more prevalent on some players as jantz has mentioned...i own a sweet ass polar bear one i love, never seen another polar bear, or other back for that matter....id love to see a hindu or something with a crop:)....but only seen pieds and caps i guess since they were the most common/printed:confused:....theoretically all backs should have had them...steve:confused:

these are in the catagory/rarity of sheet numbers on sweet cap backs, altho the sheet numbers are a little tuf to come by:)...

the crops are traditionally found with the "L" shape right angle...prob corners of the sheets:confused:....i own a few that are just lines, either guide marks/crop marks to align sheets, or got chopped off themselves...

...

i love when the pressman misses the mark:) and creats the sought after miscut backs...:cool:

nonetheless, great thread, great little"gems" hidden in the set...i will try to find some of my scans, but im weak with that:o and not sure if i have any great scans...


ID love to see some MORE:D


Congrats on the card ERICK.....you are a true t206 "blood-hound";) and, btw, i'm sure tons on this board would agree, one of the finest t206/ collectors/guys we have....your friendship and help like a few others i know is priceless bro!:) thanx for all your help, your a true friend


peace

[t206blogcom]

Yes, I've seen a few of these crop marks. Since we're talking about Arndt, thought I'd show one I picked up recently from a fellow board member. In addition to the apparent missing color, there's a small green vertical printer's mark in the top left on the back.

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/t206-Arndt-Sovereign-350-MISSING-COLOR.jpg

[Jantz]

Just for you Johnny!

[mrvster]

Those are beauties!!:)

[rsst206]

You need to look beyond the paper pull :)

[z28jd]

Where can I send the $450 to pay for that Demmitt :)

[Runscott]

That's the third Demmitt/St. Louis we've seen with that mark.

[atx840]

I was thinking the same thing Scott, Wonka has the other one. Very interesting.

[z28jd]

Another Arndt with the crop mark just ended on ebay for a great price

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEAUTIFUL-1909-1911-Arndt-from-Providence-T206-Tobacco-Card-VERY-NICE-/130801918029?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&nma=true&si=MT3pJoP9OxMBup5tbb6FCAVu6Ys%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[teetwoohsix]

Great cards and great information guys-thanks !!!

I also love these cards with the crop marks, or any oddities for that matter. I blame you for this Johnny :D:D;) (hope you are well, by the way).

Jantz- great info, thanks for posting-

Sincerely, Clayton

[Exhibitman]

Does anyone have an Arndt without the print mark??

[z28jd]

Does anyone have an Arndt without the print mark??

I'm guessing someone had a bad day at the T206 office, failing out of cutting on the line 101. Unfortunately, I have one without the print mark and ebay has tons of them right now

[z28jd]

Assuming the cards with these marks were the top and bottom corner cards, does one assume that the cards with the sheet numbers were in the bottom middle? Or do you say pish posh, they could've been anywhere (the card is Durham in case anyone is tracking these too)

[Jantz]

z28jd Cards with sheet numbers could also be on the side of a sheet, not just the bottom middle.

Here are two T206s that I own. One has a crop line on the right side and the other has a sheet number on the right side.

Why these two cards interest me is because both have the same player (Rhoades-right arm extended) on the front. Of all the T206s I've seen with either a crop line or a sheet number, this is the only player I've been able to pair up.

Thank you for posting the Durham!


Jantz

[z28jd]

Thanks for posting the sheet number on the side, never saw or heard about one those before! It is interesting that you found a crop mark and a sheet number on the same subject too...

[Runscott]

z28jd Cards with sheet numbers could also be on the side of a sheet, not just the bottom middle.

Here are two T206s that I own. One has a crop line on the right side and the other has a sheet number on the right side.
...

Jantz

Jantz, that isn't a sheet number on the right side.

[Jantz]

Jantz, that isn't a sheet number on the right side.

Hi Scott

What is it then?

If it is not a sheet number then, is it some form of sheet alignment mark?

After reviewing some other examples, I can see now that maybe it might not be a sheet number since all the other T206s have the number on the botttom of the card.

Since all the examples I've seen have a Sweet Caporal 350 fact. 30 back, it just seemed obvious that it was a sheet number. Now you got me wondering.



Jantz

[Runscott]

Hi Scott

What is it then?

If it is not a sheet number then, is it some form of sheet alignment mark?

After reviewing some other examples, I can see now that maybe it might not be a sheet number since all the other T206s have the number on the botttom of the card.

Since all the examples I've seen have a Sweet Caporal 350 fact. 30 back, it just seemed obvious that it was a sheet number. Now you got me wondering.



Jantz

I don't think the similar marks on the bottoms of cards are 'numbers' either. Some of them do look like the top of an '8' or '0', but, on the other hand, at least one I've seen has two such loops (as opposed to one), and we haven't seen any that resemble the top of any other number.

So...I don't know what they are. I would guess some sort of alignment thing.

[z28jd]

The bottom ones say 30(like the Durham), as in the factory I assume. The two loops are the top of the 3, top of the 0. I've seen one with a much bigger portion of the number where it is easier to tell

[Runscott]

The bottom ones say 30(like the Durham), as in the factory I assume. The two loops are the top of the 3, top of the 0. I've seen one with a much bigger portion of the number where it is easier to tell

Okay, I'm with you. Thanks, and here's an example to go along with your explanation:

[z28jd]

Is that the Mathewson portrait? I believe someone here has/had that card with the sheet number

[tedzan]

It's the Factory #......I have seen other such numbers and they always coincide with the Factory # of the given T-brand.

These #'s most likely identify to the printer (at a quick glance) which specific back printing plate they have selected for a
given press run.

Recall, that the fronts have been pre-printed and the various T-brand backs are printed last.


TED Z

[atx840]

I have seen a factory 25 designation on the the bottom as well and a few with the side mark, which looks more like an alignment marking vs #.

[tedzan]

I have seen a factory 25 designation on the the bottom as well and a few with the side mark, which looks more like an alignment marking vs #.

Chris

I'm not sure I understand your...."vs #" ?


Perhaps, I should clarify my previous comment........
"It's the Factory #......I have seen other such numbers and they always coincide with the Factory # of the given T-brand.

These #'s most likely identify to the printer (at a quick glance) which specific back printing plate they have selected for a
given press run."


Yes I have seen the #25, also; and, the card it was printed on was a Sweet Cap, Factory #25. Has anyone seen a T206 with any other # which
does NOT coincide with the Factory # on that particular card ? I don't think so.

The lettering on the actual printer's plate(s) of these various Factory's found on American Beauty, Piedmont, and Sweet Cap backs is very tiny;
therefore, each plate identified the given Factory # on the printed sheet with these large numbers along the edge of the sheet. Which made it
easier for jobber at American Lithographic to cut, package, and ship the cards to the appropriate Tobacco Factory.

TED Z

[z28jd]

Sounds like he agreed with you/me/Scott, Ted. Then he gave his thought what the side mark meant.

[atx840]

Hey Ted, I agree 100% with your posts, it was more to Jantz regarding Scott's comment that the side mark does not appear to be a # but more of marking.

I have not seen a # on anything but SC and no 42 or 649s (not sure if would even exist). I have seen these factory #s on different examples of the same card.

[t206blogcom]

I've always thought this was a strange print mark - the 'J' above the 'T' in Piedmont. It's the same color ink as the rest of the back. I've posted it once before on Net54 and have never seen another like it. Figured I'd share again.

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/t206-Ganzel-Piedmont-350.jpg

[mrvster]

Great input everyone...:)

I also have rhodes with the "marking" on the side...

The "30" are sheet numbers....there are a few rare examples out there that clearly show it is the top half of "30"(ther is a cobb red port with it clearly "30" visible)...

i have only seen them on sweet cap backs(sheet numbers)....


THE 25's ARE SUPER RARE.....

i would like one.....i have a few "30"s , but no "25" sheet numbers....ANYONE HAVE ONE FOR SALE??:confused:


sheet numbers are rare to aquire, but the 25's are the real rare ones....;)

[Jantz]

I think Scott may have hit on something and maybe it isn't a sheet number like the others.

One reason that I've thought about is that the Rhoades seems to appear more often then the examples with the numbers on the bottom.

Off the top of my head I can think of 5 Rhoades cards with the marks on the side. Johnny & I both own one, 707 Sportcards had one about 3 years ago and two more have sold on Ebay in the last few years.

So if I were to tally all the examples I've seen, Rhoades is out front of the others with a total of 5. Where as Johnson (Port) and Merkle (Port) are tied in second place with only 2 each.

Never seen a 25 sheet number yet, but sure would like to.

J@son I have seen stray lines like on your Ganzel before. Steve B. could probably explain why this occurs better than me. I will try to post up some scans tomorrow and show a few that I have.

Jantz

[atx840]

http://i.imgur.com/3q122.jpg

[mrvster]

SWEET!!!!

sorry guys about the lack of scans for my cards/crops/sheets right now....i will try to post some over the tg holi....

i hope my merkle scan comes up....this is a sweet sheet #30" i own, and u can see the curl of the "3"....

FOR U JANTZ;)

[mrvster]

cool little ink blot!

ps

thanks again tray r for merkle:)

[cfc1909]

http://photos.imageevent.com/cfc1909cards/t206sweetcaporal/websize/Steinfeldtporb.jpg

[Runscott]

I hate it when Chris shows pictures of his Johnson, and hate it even more when he shows pictures of mine!!!

Jantz - you give me too much credit. I'm sure we had discussed the number at the bottom of the sheet, but my memory is so bad that I had forgotten. Regarding the mark on the side of the Rhoads, I was completely unaware of such a thing.

Ted - why don't you teach me these things before I make a fool of myself?

Scott <=== heading over to T206Resource.Com to take "T206 101"

[atx840]

What can I say, I have a large Johnson.....scans folder :o

[Runscott]

What can I say, I have a large Johnson.....scans folder :o

Thanks, now I can never run for public office.

[Pat R]

I have this scan of a Speaker PD 350 with a big crop mark in the top left
and Pete has a nice Speaker PD 350 listed on the BST with a big crop mark
on the upper left side pretty good evidence that Speaker was in the upper
right corner on the Piedmont 350 sheets.

[Jantz]

I have this scan of a Speaker PD 350 with a big crop mark in the top left
and Pete has a nice Speaker PD 350 listed on the BST with a big crop mark
on the upper left side pretty good evidence that Speaker was in the upper
right corner on the Piedmont 350 sheets.

Hi Pat

Good to see you posting again. :)

I hate to throw a monkey wrench into the Speaker topic, but here is a Speaker with a crop line in the upper right corner.


Jantz

[Pat R]

Hi Jantz,

No problem that's good info to have it shows that more than likely speaker was on more than one piedmont 350 sheet or in two different positions on the same sheet. That's what makes trying to figure these sheets out
so complicated ( and a little fun in a challenging way). As we all keep
finding and sharing information we are getting closer on some of these sheets.

I didn't forget I promised you a PB list, as soon as I get it together I will send
it to you.

Patrick

[Jantz]

Possibly Speaker in the corner(s) and McGinley underneath him in one or both columns.

[z28jd]

Nice shares. Never saw a crop mark on a Speaker. Got a new target to add

[Pat R]

Not sure if the guy's that keep track of these have seen this one but I didn't
have it on my list.

[z28jd]

Never saw it. Nice catch there and I assume you picked it up?

[Pat R]

Thanks John, Yes it's a new addition.

[z28jd]

Thanks John, Yes it's a new addition.

I have the opposite corner, same back, also a Cleveland player

[Pat R]

Here's a Chase (Pink Portrait) in the same corner.

[z28jd]

I have a Chase Pink with the crop in the top right corner. Can't find a scan of it, but if I do, I'll send it to you

[Pat R]

Thanks John, That would be great if you can find it.

[Jantz]

Chase pink portrait

[z28jd]

Just found the auction I bought the Chase from, the picture is blurry because the original scan had 15 or so cards. If the card was cut right, the crop wouldn't be there, meaning the card is huge

[steve B]

Here's a Chase (Pink Portrait) in the same corner.

Comparing that to the Young is interesting. If we figure the marks were only at the corners the two being different means two or more P150 back plates. Or if they were at the corners and someplace in the middle - that would be a clue to the cutting process. (Blocks first instead of strips. )

Steve B

[Luke]

The more we know, the less we know it seems. Still, this is really interesting stuff.

[edjs]

Just picked this up, does it help any?

[Runscott]

ink spray?

This doesn't have anything to do with sheet location (I don't think), but I thought the ink spray was interesting:

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=170243&stc=1&d=1417816063

[z28jd]

Here's another one, can't remember who it is off-hand. Different series.

[t206blogcom]

http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/t206-Westlake-Piedmont-350.jpg
http://www.t206blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/t206-Merritt-Piedmont-350.jpg

[Pat R]

Molesworth

[Jantz]

Nice Pat!

I was wondering when someone would find a SLer.

The wait is over! :)

[z28jd]

Very nice Pat!

[Pat R]

Thanks Jantz and John.

[t206hound]

Just picked up this Randall Sovereign 350... also including a linked image to a previously reported Randall Piedmont 350 (http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1071615&postcount=55).

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83771&stc=1&d=1357798873http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83770&stc=1&d=1357798861

[mrvster]

ten or more years ago I thought I was the only one who cared about crop marks....

feels so good knowing others now really look at them....I somehow don't feel as crazylol:o:)

GREAT WORK!

[Pat R]

Nice Erick, the corner crops are the best.

Johnny, the crops along with the majority of what you collect are great information on the sheet layouts I would love to see your collection at the National in NJ.

[mrvster]

can't wait to see everyone in AC:)

Thanks so much.....the circus will be coming to town with me, the biggest clown:)

[Pat R]

Can't wait either Johnny seeing "the circus" will be the highlight of the
show for me.

[mrvster]

it will be an honor to meet a lot of members, such as yourself.....

Your a great contributor to this board! collectors like you keep me going:)

[z28jd]

My cousin's husband has been talking to me about the AC National since last September, glad to see we aren't the only ones planning well ahead of time. I'm definitely looking forward to going with him. He got cancer a couple years ago and just found out it came back, so he's going through the whole process again.

I might go along for the ride with Johnny V too since I plan on going multiple days. I'd rather meet him there though, because the first hour or so, he bounces around like a kid full of sugar in a candy store. It's a little embarrassing, but after he tuckers himself out, he's okay. :)

[mrvster]

SOUNDS GREAT!

my bags are already packed!:D

I have to hunt some freaks down;)

[Pat R]

A couple more crops Stovall (Batting) Old Mill and Evers (Cubs) Piedmont 150.

[Jantz]

Nice Pat

Here is another Evers that was listed on Ebay a few months back.

Jantz

[Jobu]

Another front crop, see the bottom "Lefty."

[t206hound]

Here are two that ended recently on ebay (not mine):

[Jantz]

The Chance is interesting Er!ck because a crop line has also appeared on a Chance (yellow) before, but it had a Sweet Caporal 350-460 f#25 back.

Thanks everyone for posting these recent finds.

[t206hound]

The Chance is interesting Er!ck because a crop line has also appeared on a Chance (yellow) before, but it had a Sweet Caporal 350-460 f#25 back.

Thanks everyone for posting these recent finds.

My guess is that the sheet layouts (of cards that are common) between the sweet cap factory designations where shared. For example, the Ames Portrait in SC350 has been found with both the 25 and 30 "huge factory number at back bottom" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1331979&postcount=81) suggesting that they were at the same sheet location with both factory designations:

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=163706&stc=1&d=1412818391

[Jantz]

My guess is that the sheet layouts (of cards that are common) between the sweet cap factory designations where shared. For example, the Ames Portrait in SC350 has been found with both the 25 and 30 "huge factory number at back bottom" (http://www.net54baseball.com/showpost.php?p=1331979&postcount=81) suggesting that they were at the same sheet location with both factory designations:

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=163706&stc=1&d=1412818391

I agree Er!ck.

As with the other Chance, the crop line is in the same corner as the Chance you posted.

[Jobu]

This one isn't mine but I came across it when doing some research. Are there any other Red Hindu cards with crops known?

[Luke]

Just want to post these here for posterity:

[Luke]

Couple more crop marks to add to the puzzle:

[Leon]

Love all of the crop marks on the cards!!

[KingFisk]

I got a Johnny Evers (blue sky) in the mail today and noticed what I think is a crop mark on the back in the upper left corner. Dumb question and possibly answered elsewhere but I found another thread indicating these marks should have been erased. What was process for erasure? I ask because the mark on my card looks to be the same red as the Sweet Cap red printing. Would have just been a matter of using an eraser to remove that section of ink? Would that otherwise affect the card's surface (I.e., flake off some of the card stock)?

[steve B]

Depending on the exact purpose, the marks could have been erased from the plate/stone. Since the stone is limestone, and the parts that are intended to print are on the stone with an oily substance, erasing is pretty easy. The press operator just "erases" it with a limestone stick.

Most of these marks were probably intended to be left on. It's likely they were intended as marks showing where the edges of the sheet should be trimmed off. Of course, in practice the sheets were cut face up, so the marks were useless.

Ones like on the Elberfeld above may have been intended to be erased. They're more like layout marks than indicators where to cut.
The ones that were commonly erased were the layout marks that were at the center of the design edges on the front that were there to make sure each color was laid out properly aligned.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Here's another Demmitt with a large crop mark and the same flaw in the
top of the frame line as the one in post #12.
279917

[KingFisk]

Depending on the exact purpose, the marks could have been erased from the plate/stone. Since the stone is limestone, and the parts that are intended to print are on the stone with an oily substance, erasing is pretty easy. The press operator just "erases" it with a limestone stick.

Most of these marks were probably intended to be left on. It's likely they were intended as marks showing where the edges of the sheet should be trimmed off. Of course, in practice the sheets were cut face up, so the marks were useless.

Ones like on the Elberfeld above may have been intended to be erased. They're more like layout marks than indicators where to cut.
The ones that were commonly erased were the layout marks that were at the center of the design edges on the front that were there to make sure each color was laid out properly aligned.

Steve B

I totally missed this response to my question last month. Thank you for the info!