Hall of Fame Veterans Committee List

[JimStinson]

At least one or more of these names will be selected for the Hall of Fame by the Veterans committee in December and as happened in the past with autographs of relatively common names like Billy Southworth, Joe Gordon, etc. Prices spiked dramatically.

There are a few EXTREME toughies on the list too that already command top dollar if you can find them. Here is the list

SAM BREADON (executive)

BILL DAHLEN

WES FERRELL

MARTY MARION

TONY MULLANE (VERY tough autograph)

HANK O'DAY (Umpire, In my opinion he has the best chance and is the RAREST signature of entire group)

AL REACH (executive)

JACOB RUPPERT (executive)

BUCKY WALTERS

DEACON WHITE (very tough autograph)
________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[whyconform]

I haven't looked into the specifics of each player, but w/ all the talk about the HOF being too diluted with 'very very good' players, I hope people don't feel the need to vote someone in or simply the best of the list....I hope they simply look at their numbers and what they brought to the sport on an individual basis and decide if they are to be considered a HOF'er....

Marion is dirt cheap...pulled him from a Donruss pack..........I also have Ruppert, who did pass away a while back, but is fairly common w/ his sig on so many checks... I think I paid 75 for a PSA/DNA Ed Barrow/Ruppert check....

[JimStinson]

Tony Mullane won 284 games in only 13 seasons , and won 30 or more games in 1883 (35), 1884 (36), 1886 (33), 1887 (31) , had he not missed the 1885 season he would have surely had over 300 wins and would have probably already been in the Hall of Fame 50 years ago
______________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage Autographs
19th Century and dead ball era baseball my specialty
jim@stinsonsports.com

[sayhey24]

[QUOTE=JimStinson;1050538]At least one or more of these names will be selected for the Hall of Fame by the Veterans committee in December and as happened in the past with autographs of relatively common names like Billy Southworth, Joe Gordon, etc. Prices spiked dramatically.

One correction -- At least one won't necessarily be elected to the HOF. Any candidate must receive 75 percent of the vote, so as has happened in the past, there is a chance that no one will be elected.


Greg

[bender07]

Jim - How tough is Dahlen?

FWIW, I think O'Day, Mullane and White should get in.

[whyconform]

this is sweet
http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=52972

[David Atkatz]

It may be sweet.
But it is most certainly stolen.

[jgmp123]

it may be sweet.
But it is most certainly stolen.

nypl?

[earlywynnfan]

O'Day is the only one I'd put in, although I wouldn't cry over Dahlen.

Personally, I'd like to see Marion get in because he's the only one I have an auto for! However, it's not like he's someone from the 1800's; I see no reason he's a HOFer now when so many voters who actually saw him play didn't vote him in. (Same thing for Munson, Hodges, etc etc)

Ken

[David Atkatz]

nypl?No. Whichever court the will was filed.

[JimStinson]

Jim - How tough is Dahlen?

FWIW, I think O'Day, Mullane and White should get in.

As someone mentioned above its entirely possible NO ONE from the list will be inducted.

In answer to your question : Dahlen is tough but not impossible , not inexpensive but not extraordinary expensive either.
_____________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage Autographs for over 3 decades
specializing in 19th century and dead ball era
jim@stinsonsports.com

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Don't know Marion would get in, he was only a good fielder, that's it. No clue as to how or why he won MVP with those atrocious numbers.

[prewarsports]

I think sometimes people forget that defense has traditionally been more important than offense in the game of Baseball's history. According to superstar players from an 1894 survey NED WILLIAMSON was the greatest player to ever play the game up to that point. 100% because of his defense. There are lots of defensive specialist in the hall and now we look at them all and think they were bad choices but its because defense was looked upon as much more important that offense throughout the 1950's. Modern stats and offensive obsession are a modern thing and the only person in the last 30 years who has overcome that is Ozzie Smith.

I would have no problem with Marion, or most of those guys. Mullane is not getting in (which is sad) because he was supposedly a racist (who wasn't racist in 19th century America i'd like to know) and the committe is specifically instructed to look into their character as a requirement.

I bet they vote in some insignificant guy like Ruppert or Breaden and nobody cares as a result.

Rhys

[earlywynnfan]

I think sometimes people forget that defense has traditionally been more important than offense in the game of Baseball's history. According to superstar players from an 1894 survey NED WILLIAMSON was the greatest player to ever play the game up to that point. 100% because of his defense. There are lots of defensive specialist in the hall and now we look at them all and think they were bad choices but its because defense was looked upon as much more important that offense throughout the 1950's. Modern stats and offensive obsession are a modern thing and the only person in the last 30 years who has overcome that is Ozzie Smith.

I would have no problem with Marion, or most of those guys. Mullane is not getting in (which is sad) because he was supposedly a racist (who wasn't racist in 19th century America i'd like to know) and the committe is specifically instructed to look into their character as a requirement.

I bet they vote in some insignificant guy like Ruppert or Breaden and nobody cares as a result.

Rhys

Ozzie Smith and Mazeroski.

Ken

[JimStinson]

Don't know Marion would get in, he was only a good fielder, that's it. No clue as to how or why he won MVP with those atrocious numbers.

That is a little like saying I don't know why Dick Butkus ever made the Football Hall of Fame he was only a good defensive player :)

I don't know why it took the Hall of Fame so long to recognize that Bill Mazeroski was the greatest defensive 2nd baseman of all time or Wes Parker STILL is not in the Hall of Fame even though he is considered the greatest defensive first baseman of the century
_________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage Autographs for over three decades
Specializing in 19th Century and dead ball era autographs
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

On August 21, 2007, Wes Parker was named to the Major League Baseball All-time Gold Glove Team, and is the only eligible member of the team who is not in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[HexsHeroes]

Ozzie Smith and Mazeroski.

Ken


Don't think so.

And I'd have to suspect that Mike Schmidt's defensive prowlness + power hitting stats helped to overlook his .267 career batting average.

[mr2686]

Finally some love for Wes Parker. Jim, Wes was my favorite player as a kid and his defense was not lost on us L.A. Dodger fans. I believe besides his 6 gold gloves he also won 2 Diamond gloves over in Japan.
There have been some fantastic firstbaseman that came after him, so that's saying a lot that he made the all time team.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

That is a little like saying I don't know why Dick Butkus ever made the Football Hall of Fame he was only a good defensive player :)

I don't know why it took the Hall of Fame so long to recognize that Bill Mazeroski was the greatest defensive 2nd baseman of all time or Wes Parker STILL is not in the Hall of Fame even though he is considered the greatest defensive first baseman of the century
_________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage Autographs for over three decades
Specializing in 19th Century and dead ball era autographs
jim@stinsonsports.com

Still, others put up gawdy offensive numbers while also maintaining superior defensive value in '44. Not saying that defense isn't an important factor, he just really did not help the team out offensively as much would want from a HOF'er, didn't score many runs, his OBP is horrible.

IMHO I believe that a HOF'er shouldn't get in on being the greatest in one facet of the game outside of a pitcher, like Marion for JUST his defense (potential candidate). For position players you should be able to do it all, that's what truly makes you THE best, the five tools, or close to it. You need to be able to maintain a great average, drive in runs and well as score runs, smart on the basepaths even if you don't have the steals numbers, patient at the plate and draw your walks to get on base, have great range, good reads/jumps, strong arm, and high baseball IQ. If you are an offensive monster, but have negative defensive value and actually could possibly hurt the team more than help, how should you be a HOF'er? I believe that's what makes you a HOF'er. I mean you can be unreal in one facet, but at least be average in the others.

[bender07]

That is a little like saying I don't know why Dick Butkus ever made the Football Hall of Fame he was only a good defensive player :)


Apples and oranges. Marion's position required him to play offense while Butkus' did not.

I think the lack of advanced, reliable defensive metrics really hurts the defense only players. It seems that it's often anecdotal on how great these guys were. I often would hear that "Maz was quickest to turn a double play!" No way to prove that and without that WS HR, I don't think Maz would have had a shot to get in.

I used to be a HOF snob and wanted tight requirements on who gets in but I've relented recently and figure the more the merrier. The current course has been set by the old Veterans Committee's of Frank Frisch and there's no way to clean up past 'wrongs' (Travis Jackson!). Let'em all in!

[bender07]

But it's waaaaay more likely a guy will get in based on great offensive talent versus great defensive talent. Ted Williams wasn't a great defensive player by any means nor was he great baserunner. He simply could hit the s*** out of the ball and got in based on that.

There were very few guys that exiled on both sides of the 'ball.'

[JimStinson]

But it's waaaaay more likely a guy will get in based on great offensive talent versus great defensive talent. Ted Williams wasn't a great defensive player by any means nor was he great baserunner. He simply could hit the s*** out of the ball and got in based on that.

There were very few guys that exiled on both sides of the 'ball.'

Good point, Williams was an awful fielder but if he was on my team I wouldn't care WHAT he did in the outfield between innings...lol, Take a nap get a massage , eat a sandwich. Whatever he did would be fine with me. Heck I would have set up a picnic table and Bar-B-Q pit in the outfield if he wanted it. Plus he had Dom who could (and did play his and Ted's position)

On that same note I used to watch Reggie Jackson play every day when he was with the Yankees and EVERY FLY BALL WAS AN ADVENTURE ! Worst outfielder I ever saw in my life did far more harm than good with his defensive "skills" and he made it in the HOF on what ? First ballot ?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Good point, Williams was an awful fielder but if he was on my team I wouldn't care WHAT he did in the outfield between innings...lol, Take a nap get a massage , eat a sandwich. Whatever he did would be fine with me. Heck I would have set up a picnic table and Bar-B-Q pit in the outfield if he wanted it. Plus he had Dom who could (and did play his and Ted's position)

On that same note I used to watch Reggie Jackson play every day when he was with the Yankees and EVERY FLY BALL WAS AN ADVENTURE ! Worst outfielder I ever saw in my life did far more harm than good with his defensive "skills" and he made it in the HOF on what ? First ballot ?

Reminds me of Manny Ramirez lol

[David Atkatz]

If ever there was a one-tool player in the HoF, it's Reggie.

What a joke.

[HexsHeroes]

.

It use to be the best of the all around best only got in.

Eventually, relief pitching specialists got in.

Then, defensive specialists got in.

Someday, HOF entrance by a pure designated hitter ?

Maybe there's still hope for Edgar Martinez, over time.

[MooseDog]

If ever there was a one-tool player in the HoF, it's Reggie.

What a joke.

He became a one-tool player after leaving the A's...for whom he was a decent, perhaps not great RF with one of the best arms in the league. Maybe it was the weightlifting, maybe all the late nights but his defense did go downhill rapidly in pinstripes.

[packs]

I heard he was known to have a big head. Probably effected his balance in the outfield.

[mr2686]

He became a one-tool player after leaving the A's...for whom he was a decent, perhaps not great RF with one of the best arms in the league. Maybe it was the weightlifting, maybe all the late nights but his defense did go downhill rapidly in pinstripes.

I agree 100 percent MooseDog. I don't think the east coast fans on here saw him much when he played for the A's.

[Scott Garner]

Don't think so.

And I'd have to suspect that Mike Schmidt's defensive prowlness + power hitting stats helped to overlook his .267 career batting average.

Hitting over 500 HR's in a career and no PED's in sight doesn't hurt much either! ;)

[Scott Garner]

.

It use to be the best of the all around best only got in.

Eventually, relief pitching specialists got in.

Then, defensive specialists got in.

Someday, HOF entrance by a pure designated hitter ?

Maybe there's still hope for Edgar Martinez, over time.

Edgar and Frank Thomas. Although Thomas started out at 1B, he certainly was no 1st baseman. No doubt he deserves to be in the HOF though... :cool:

[Mr. Zipper]

You think 500 HRs will cease to be basically an automatic pass into the HOF?

[Scott Garner]

You think 500 HRs will cease to be basically an automatic pass into the HOF?

Steve,
That's a very good question. I'm not sure, but it certainly calls into question virtually all players that hit 500 HR's during the steroid era. :confused:

[Mr. Zipper]

When I look at the crop of 500 HR players over the past 15 years, I'm not thinking "Hall of Fame caliber" for many of them. Even putting steroids aside, it seems like many of them just clung on long enough to hit the mark without ever being a truly superior player.

[isaac2004]

When I look at the crop of 500 HR players over the past 15 years, I'm not thinking "Hall of Fame caliber" for many of them. Even putting steroids aside, it seems like many of them just clung on long enough to hit the mark without ever being a truly superior player.

Exhibit A Sheffield, Gary

[Cooptown]

You think 500 HRs will cease to be basically an automatic pass into the HOF?

Adam Dunn is 33 and over his decline years (the past three) has still averaged nearly 25 HRs a year. He's got a shot at 500HR with no shot whatsoever at the HOF. What would be a close comparison to him; Dave Kingman?

[isaac2004]

If you take his career offensive WAR and extrapolate that out will he is 38 (estimated retirement age), he sits at about 45 WAR, putting him in the Carlos Delgado, Sosa, Rusty Staub area, which means he aint getting into the hall.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Adam Dunn is 33 and over his decline years (the past three) has still averaged nearly 25 HRs a year. He's got a shot at 500HR with no shot whatsoever at the HOF. What would be a close comparison to him; Dave Kingman?

I wouldn't say last year was a decline year, it was probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest, year to year production difference. Quadrupled HR total, runs, RBI's, pretty much every offensive stat, Big Donkey is back.

[frankbmd]

I wouldn't say last year was a decline year, it was probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest, year to year production difference. Quadrupled HR total, runs, RBI's, pretty much every offensive stat, Big Donkey is back.


He didn't quadruple his strikeout totals (only 222 this year). He'll only get into the Hall if he fans more than Nolan Ryan.:confused:

[HOF Auto Rookies]

He didn't quadruple his strikeout totals (only 222 this year). He'll only get into the Hall if he fans more than Nolan Ryan.:confused:

Haha yeah I guess

[johnmh71]

I just picked up a nice Walters. I hope he gets in, even though it is a long shot.

[travrosty]

500 hr's will continue to be a benchmark for the hall.

[isaac2004]

500 hr's will continue to be a benchmark for the hall.

So you say Sosa will get in? He has 600

[prewarsports]

FYI

The (2) Mullane Wills that I discovered in 2005 are NOT "Certainly Stolen". If you know anything about the way the Legal System works there are always 2 copies of Wills, one is filed with the Court and one goes to the Family for their records. The Will in Mastro was also superseeded by a new Will filed in the 1940's and was invalid anyways so it is doubly NOT stolen, wasn't even valid at the time of Mullane's death. If anyone has any questions about either Will I will be happy to give you a paper train that started with Mullane and ended up with me, in the process it went to his Daughter Ina Mullane (Schworm), her Daughter Dorothy Schworm, through the Lake County Probate Office in Illinois, then to me, and then to Masto. Case closed! I have one Mullane autograph left if anyone wants to see that too.

I know there have been problems with some Wills in the past being stolen, but this is not that case and both the Mullane Wills out there (the one from the 1940's is signed TWICE) are as clean as can be!

Also FYI, if anyone ever has any questions about his autograph, ALL his signatures in the hobby originated from me and the estate I bought so feel free to e mail me with any questions at all.

Rhys Yeakley

Attorney

[mr2686]

Looks like Ruppert, O'Day and White have been elected. At least I have a Ruppert. Curious as to why Breadon didn't get in since he had multiple championship Cardinals teams, but not complaining since I still need him for my 1934 project and didn't want to see his price jump.

[JimStinson]

That should make things interesting, The last O'Day I sold was 7 years ago for 6K
________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Tom Hufford]

All the "Ruppert signatures" actually signed by Ed Barrow on checks, contracts, and player transfers are going to drive collectors nuts for years to come!

[Mr. Zipper]

All the "Ruppert signatures" actually signed by Ed Barrow on checks, contracts, and player transfers are going to drive collectors nuts for years to come!

Can you share an example of a ghost signed Ruppert?

[David Atkatz]

All the "Ruppert signatures" actually signed by Ed Barrow on checks, contracts, and player transfers are going to drive collectors nuts for years to come!Never seen one on a check. Very common on contracts and transfers.
But they don't look anything like Ruppert's actual signature. They're as "loopy" as Barrow's.

[David Atkatz]

Here's a Barrow-signed Proxy on a Pipgras contract:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/pipgras_contract_2_72.jpg

[mr2686]

Never seen one on a check. Very common on contracts and transfers.
But they don't look anything like Ruppert's actual signature. They're as "loopy" as Barrow's.

Can't remember seeing one on a check either.

[Mr. Zipper]

Here's a Barrow-signed Proxy on a Pipgras contract:

Ok... pretty obvious. Thanks for sharing.

[whyconform]

Phew mine looks good. Yea. Most of the checks seem to pan out.

Here's a link about it (last paragraph)
http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=6633

[byrone]

Anyone else similar to my (erroneous) thinking that Ruppert was already in the Hall of Fame?

I never realized before that he wasn't.

[JimStinson]

Anyone else similar to my (erroneous) thinking that Ruppert was already in the Hall of Fame?

I never realized before that he wasn't.

I keep asking myself the same question about GIL HODGES
______________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[Baseball Fan]

Anyone else similar to my (erroneous) thinking that Ruppert was already in the Hall of Fame?

I never realized before that he wasn't.

That would be me as well.

[Scott Garner]

Anyone else similar to my (erroneous) thinking that Ruppert was already in the Hall of Fame?

I never realized before that he wasn't.

I thought the same thing. How could he not be in the HOF with all of those WS wins?

[novakjr]

I keep asking myself the same question about GIL HODGES
______________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I had a colossal brain fart as well. At one point I honestly thought that Munson was in as well. Had him and Hodges in with my HOF RC collection. I didn't even look at my list in regards to post-war guys, I just put 'em there. I still haven't had the heart to take either of 'em out.

[dgo71]

So from what I read, this would appear to be a Barrow proxy-signed Ruppert?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JACOB-COLONEL-RUPPERT-JR-CONTRACT-SIGNED-/300257279323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45e8ba7d5b

Also, I am interested to know where Deacon White would fall on the list of rarity. Would he crack the "top 10 toughies" list? He died in the 30s before sending TTM was fashionable, but he did live a pretty long life. I have to imagine he's pretty scarce but I don't know what he did after baseball so am unsure about the availability of documents, checks, etc. Anyone have any insight on Deacon?

[JimStinson]

So from what I read, this would appear to be a Barrow proxy-signed Ruppert?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JACOB-COLONEL-RUPPERT-JR-CONTRACT-SIGNED-/300257279323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45e8ba7d5b

Also, I am interested to know where Deacon White would fall on the list of rarity. Would he crack the "top 10 toughies" list? He died in the 30s before sending TTM was fashionable, but he did live a pretty long life. I have to imagine he's pretty scarce but I don't know what he did after baseball so am unsure about the availability of documents, checks, etc. Anyone have any insight on Deacon?

I don't think Deacon White would fall into the 10 toughest list although Hank O'Day might. Mostly because White's family sold his estate several years ago and there were a number of signed items in the offering which ended up in private collections but likely some will now surface.
____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[David Atkatz]

So from what I read, this would appear to be a Barrow proxy-signed Ruppert?Yes.