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View Full Version : Lot #4 in Goldin Auctions Rocky Marciano gloves have been PULLED. READ


kengoldin
10-26-2012, 02:33 PM
We received as a consignment for auction from an extremely well known , well respected collector and dealer in sports memorabilia for the past 25 years a pair of gloves purported to be signed and used by Marciano. With those gloves we received a notarized letter from the original owner. Based on research of that original owner , it was obvious he was a friend of Marcianos and did have a close relationship with him for many years.

After accepting the gloves into consignment, we contacted PSA to authenticate the signature on the gloves. After a review on site in NJ as well as a review in CA, PSA/DNA issued two LOAs , one for each signed glove. Complete with the PSA/DNA certification as well as the notarized letter we placed the gloves into the November 17th auction.

After the release of the catalog online I was alerted to a post in this forum. After reading the post we immediately edited the description to ensure that it was not implied PSA/DNA was certifying any ‘use’. I also personally contacted the original poster and one other who was said to be affiliated with him. They were both invited to come see the gloves in person and render an opinion, at my expense. One of them (Travis) did respond, although I was not able to get a phone # to have a discussion with him. The other (Mark Ogren) did not respond to several requests by email or phone. (until several days later on 10/24). My discussion with Travis led us to contact an attorney who could properly investigate the gloves for us, who advised us that legally we had taken the right steps to ensure authenticity, however that was not enough for me. I didn’t want to ‘do enough’ …I wanted to be 100% RIGHT. So we formulated a plan to allow to be ‘100% right’ and if anything did not match up, the item would be pulled. I informed travis of this just so he was aware. Despite some’s desire to see an item pulled the minute they make a comment, based solely on their post, we believe that the correct ,carefully thought out and investigated decision is the correct one, and not the EXPEDIENT and EASY ONE.

We contacted a forensic ink lab and had it verified that the ink the gloves were signed in was available since 1962, which did not of course mean they were signed by Rocky, but did mean that it was period specific ink. I contacted MEARS to assign them the task of photo matching the gloves to images available of Rocky training and sparring in 1951 (and there are images of him using Everlast in 1951). This was to begin Monday 10/29. The third part of this three tiered approach was to contact recognized boxing autograph experts to solicit their opinion. I spoke with Jim Stinson on Wednesday and had a great conversation with him. I also spoke to a long time friend in the business Mike Heffner of Lelands, and I thank both Jim and Mike for their time. I also again invited Travis and Mark to look at the gloves and render an opinion in person at my expense for their travel. Travis mentioned he lived to far away, and Mark replied after I had completed all my other research (first reply to me since start of the post). After Jim and Mike’s feedback I did converse with PSA/DNA and did also converse with the consignor. After these conversations, I informed MEARS I would not need their services as my decision was made.

We respect PSA/DNA and their good work, however in this instance feel that too many individuals in the boxing community feel so strongly that this cannot be Marciano’s autograph that we pulled the item. We will ALWAYS make the correct decision with anything we list in our auctions, and anything we feel we need to remove in our auctions. Please keep in mind we feel it is most important to make the CORRECT decision, as opposed to the EASIEST and most expedient decision, which is why we were methodical in our process and response. Obviously , as you can see from my efforts, we were willing to spend more investigating the gloves then we possibly could have made on a 10% buyer’s premium, however it is most important to us to make the correct decision. I can always be reached directly at ken@goldinauctions.com and I look forward to seeing many of you bid in this and future auctions of ours. Regards, Ken Goldin

JimStinson
10-26-2012, 05:18 PM
After all the HOWLING & WHINING now everyone has NOTHING to say ???? WTF !
Hey if someone wants to be a "critic" or an "expert" you are either "ALL IN OR ALL OUT", you put your reputation and your ass on the line. You don;t "bail" when someone wants to discuss it legitimately like in a REAL conversation , and then maybe if one of the parties is sincere the situation is resolved. There has ALWAYS been more GOOD in this hobby/business than bad and this post proves it.

For starters at least give a Thank you for someone "KG" going above and beyond what would have been required for ANY business man to do.
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage sports autographs for over 3 decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

Mr. Zipper
10-26-2012, 06:13 PM
After all the HOWLING & WHINING now everyone has NOTHING to say ???? WTF !
Hey if someone wants to be a "critic" or an "expert" you are either "ALL IN OR ALL OUT", you put your reputation and your ass on the line. You don;t "bail" when someone wants to discuss it legitimately like in a REAL conversation , and then maybe if one of the parties is sincere the situation is resolved. There has ALWAYS been more GOOD in this hobby/business than bad and this post proves it.

For starters at least give a Thank you for someone "KG" going above and beyond what would have been required for ANY business man to do.
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage sports autographs for over 3 decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

+1,000

Kudos to Ken for going the extra mile to get it right.

BTW, it does not surprise me at all that some of the "experts" were MIA when it came time to help in a constructive way. As I have noted elsewhere previously, that is the M.O. and you only contributions you'll ever see is bashing TPAs.

toybulldog
10-26-2012, 07:10 PM
Ken, I do thank you for the removal of the auction lot which contained the questionable signed Rocky Marciano gloves. No, I don’t expect you to hop to just because a post was made regarding the authenticity of the item. My only goal was to post the information and evidence I had which contradicted the authenticity of this item. As for PSA/DNA, I do not have the same opinion as yourself, do not respect them and have seen many questionable authentications and rejections made by them. This one to me was so atrocious and unjust that I felt obligated to make a post about it before someone was financially harmed. My invite for them to participate on the thread was sincere and I was looking forward to debating them on how they came to the conclusion that the Marciano signed gloves were authentic. I can’t imagine them having any supporting evidence and question their motive in authenticating these particular items. By their own choice they chose not to participate. I did not have to come see them in person to acquire the opinion that these items are not genuine as far as the autograph is concerned. When compared to late 1960’s or any other era of Marciano’s signature the signed gloves did not show resemblance and had many inconsistencies.
Your comment…
“ however in this instance feel that too many individuals in the boxing community feel so strongly that this cannot be Marciano’s autograph that we pulled the item. We will ALWAYS make the correct decision with anything we list in our auctions, and anything we feel we need to remove in our auctions.”
…. I can assure you, speaks volumes in the “boxing community” and your faith in us is much appreciated. PSA/DNA does not make an autograph real, nor does my name, Travis name or anyone else’s for that matter.
Ken, thanks again and pardon my delayed response as I was on earlier making another rant and did not notice your thread, you were not being ignored. Also thanks to Jim and Mike for your assistance and opinion.
Ken, also, Travis and myself did do a good going through with these autographs (See below what we comb through) and weren’t just blowing smoke or participating in a witch hunt against a TPA. We’re constantly collecting, documenting, agreeing, disagreeing. What PSA does, we just don't know?


http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano%20file%201a%20Ph.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano%20file%201b%20Ph.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano%20file%201c%20Ph.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano%20file%201d%20Ph.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano%20file%201e%20Ph.jpg

Thumbs up!!
http://www.goldinauctions.com/

Best,
Mark O.

travrosty
10-26-2012, 07:22 PM
i am not a paid service and neither is mark and these gloves were obvious from the beginning. did you see all the autographs mark posted above, how many did you get from psa???????????????

what more of a conversation did anyone want when i wrote emails five miles long explaining why it couldnt be marciano's siganture and psa gave no exemplars and no explanation, but of course it is always my fault and marks fault that these gloves are no good? why do i need to call for you to get it across that these gloves did not match any exemplars.

psa skates and gets off scott free and its my fault and marks fault that we were right! That's why a good deed never goes unpunished.

and if people appreciate psa's good work, i am sure they appreciate psa getting the weil manager signed marciano gloves wrong in a recent auction too.

the problem is that people do due diligence AFTER the fact when psa drops the ball and then need to pin it on somebody and its never psa's fault, joe orlando's fault, or steve grads fault. they do a great job, right?

remember, psa has brought you the following great authentications.

John l sullivan letter penned and signed secretarial letter.

bob fitzsimmons wife and manager signed autographs.

james jeffries, tom sharkey and corbett "signed" hotel registry all signed in the same hand.

manager signed dempsey signed photograph.

way too many joe louis "signed" photos and cuts to count that are worth zero.

75 muhammad ali signed photos in a row registered in their database as real that they wont authenticate as real anymore but they are floating out there somewhere in the hobby.

many sonny liston encapsulated and LOA'd "autographs" signed by his wife Geraldine.

An encapsulated Rocky Marciano autograph that is signed by Rocky Graziano.

A George Chuvalo autograph that they certified as Julio Cesar Chavez.

A so called authenticated signature of Battling Nelson on a photo of Terry McGovern.

this is a great job by them and remember that neither I nor Mark made these mistakes, so pinning these gloves on us doesn't wash. It's not our fault, we know boxing autographs, and I get emails all the time from authenticators asking for my help, and I don't need to call them on the phone.

call up joe orlando and see if he takes your call. see if he gives exemplars, and see if he will explain their authentication. they won't.

then come on here and say they do a great job. It's not my fault these gloves are no good and provenance is almost worthless this day and age as it can be easily manufactured. I have always been available to help, which is what I did, because it was a slam dunk and I explained my opinion thoroughly and just because I don't call on the phone doesn't mean i don't know boxing autographs. if you dont take my word or marks right away that they are bad, why do you take psa's word right off the bat that they are good? we didnt ask for you to take our word right away that they were bad, we wanted to prove it to you through exemplars, which we did, but psa's loa is so much more convincing that it is good with all the exemplars they provide?

ask mark when was the last time i called him on the phone?

Mark makes a great point when he says he knows how myself and him authenticate autographs, we take time, sometimes hours upon hours sifting through the largest exemplar files around to come to a careful decision. We don't know what psa does because to call a chuvalo autograph a chavez autograph is impossible in the world that me and mark live in. it cant happen because if someone doesnt know the difference between the two , they should be as far away from boxing autographs as they can be and do something else.

every time we have ever pointed out a bad mistake, the item gets pulled or there is no rebuttal from psa or jsa, we have had to issue no retractions. we are 100 for 100 because we dont go off half cocked. we take time to figure it out. we dont issue loa's like water.

toybulldog
10-26-2012, 07:46 PM
BTW, it does not surprise me at all that some of the "experts" were MIA when it came time to help in a constructive way. As I have noted elsewhere previously, that is the M.O. and you only contributions you'll ever see is bashing TPAs.

If you are one that supports TPA's I would have to say that is the biggest projection I've ever heard. PSA/DNA was invited to come on here to discuss a bogus authentication with an estimated value of $25,000 and they chose not to participate. When it comes to posting evidence or giving an evidence based explanation they are always MIA. Doesn't anyone here want to see the entire "world's leading autograph experts" debate the lone "independant operator bread route salesman" over these Rocky Marciano signatures? Sounds like a damned monster movie?

whitehse
10-26-2012, 10:55 PM
I didnt get involved in the original Marciano thread because, well, I dont know enough about the subject to even comment on it. I do applaud Ken for doing the right thing and pulling the plug on the auction. I do find it beyond crazy that PSA/DNA would not even dignify their work with a response. I wouldnt think they would come here to respond but at least an email to Ken would have been appropriate!

I have one question for Ken. Any chance you could pay my way to your offices so I could render my opinion on all the great stuff you have there? I have very little experience authenticating anything but I would love the opportunity to hang out and see what you have!! I could even report back to the members of the board.....kinda like a working vacation!!

Of course I kid but what a great trip that would be!! :)

JimStinson
10-26-2012, 11:00 PM
I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

kengoldin
10-27-2012, 12:06 AM
just as an FYI
I did speak to PSA and I have no issues with PSA/DNA They were very professional in the entire business and i appreciate them reaching out to me.
Please do not characterize them as not contacting me as that is not the case. You can all speak from your own experiences, but not mine

travrosty
10-27-2012, 02:54 AM
they were so professional they showed you exemplars that they used when you asked for them?

when you get an oil change and change the oil filter, and ask to see the old filter to make sure they actually changed it and did the job they were paid to do and they wont show it to you, do you come back for more in the future?

you pay their salary, and they answer to you, not the other way around. are they going to get future work in your auction?

where are their exemplars used for these gloves. aren't you mad they won't show you any?

I would show any customer any exemplars they wanted to see and make them a hard copy on a flash drive fedexed to their house if they wanted it.

show just one exemplar you used, professional sports authenticators/DNA/BFF

Mr. Zipper
10-27-2012, 08:37 AM
I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

Very wise. +1

:)

keithsky
10-27-2012, 08:47 AM
Auction companies won"t blast any authentication service like PSA or JSA because it would hurt there business. If you figure them running an auction with no item authenticated by PSA or JSA there bidders will not be there and they'll lose money. Just look at the crap on Coach's Corner and there price for the guys that authenticte there verses an auction house that has PSA or JSA autheticate items. 10 time less money there. So auction companies aren't going to say anything negative about them even if something is wrong. And to think that PSA or JSA would come on here if they authenticated something that was found not real will never happen. There not going to admit mistakes. Bad for business. They think they know more than anybody outside there company. There is some very smart experts outside of there companys and you would think maybe they would listen to some of there reasons. Like the old saying " You learn something new everyday" These comments are just my opinions and I'm sure not everyone agree.

sayhey24
10-27-2012, 10:37 AM
That's terrific that the gloves were pulled.

GREAT job by Mark for bringing this to light, and by Jim for lending his expertise.

Greg

Fuddjcal
10-27-2012, 01:37 PM
I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

PLUS TWO! So true,

Hopefully Travis will get to see them fold in his lifetime.:)
I almost got my wish when GM went BK and would have folded if not for a GOVT bailout :) In 1982 (That's a 30 year grudge!) Before the lemon law, I had a Pontirock Trans Am that blew up after 20,000 miles. It had a wire that kept poking me in my fat ass, ripping through the seat and my pants (3 times). An electric antenna that wouldn't stop going down (3 times). T-Tops that leaked (more than 10 times)...and that's just the cliff notes version.

I hadn't touched a GM product since then. I finally broke down a few months ago when I jumped back in with a 2007 Corvette, just for a new hobby. I saved some of the money for the car, that I usually would spend on Autographs after I just got sick up and fed with all the stinking Forgery Scams..... Especially sick of FDE's that don't know shit and for the most part are scammers themselves with ZERO integrity. Also sick of the "legitimate" Authenticators that are more error prone than Steve Sax.

PSA needs a good Romneying:D...(Going in and firing everyone)

Fuddjcal
10-27-2012, 02:20 PM
Also,

I'd like to wish Ken Goldin the best on his upcoming Auction. It looks like a fantastic start!!!!

RichardSimon
10-27-2012, 08:47 PM
Auction companies won"t blast any authentication service like PSA or JSA because it would hurt there business. If you figure them running an auction with no item authenticated by PSA or JSA there bidders will not be there and they'll lose money. Just look at the crap on Coach's Corner and there price for the guys that authenticte there verses an auction house that has PSA or JSA autheticate items. 10 time less money there. So auction companies aren't going to say anything negative about them even if something is wrong. And to think that PSA or JSA would come on here if they authenticated something that was found not real will never happen. There not going to admit mistakes. Bad for business. They think they know more than anybody outside there company. There is some very smart experts outside of there companys and you would think maybe they would listen to some of there reasons. Like the old saying " You learn something new everyday" These comments are just my opinions and I'm sure not everyone agree.

+1,,, I agree with you.

RichardSimon
10-27-2012, 08:49 PM
"The stronge survive",, from Jim Stinson's post above.
Did you mean strong or strange?? :D.

travrosty
10-27-2012, 09:08 PM
Auction companies won"t blast any authentication service like PSA or JSA because it would hurt there business. If you figure them running an auction with no item authenticated by PSA or JSA there bidders will not be there and they'll lose money. Just look at the crap on Coach's Corner and there price for the guys that authenticte there verses an auction house that has PSA or JSA autheticate items. 10 time less money there. So auction companies aren't going to say anything negative about them even if something is wrong. And to think that PSA or JSA would come on here if they authenticated something that was found not real will never happen. There not going to admit mistakes. Bad for business. They think they know more than anybody outside there company. There is some very smart experts outside of there companys and you would think maybe they would listen to some of there reasons. Like the old saying " You learn something new everyday" These comments are just my opinions and I'm sure not everyone agree.



i do agree with you. they wont fire the people who wont show them exemplars or explain their decision when the true experts will do all those things willingly and no problem at all?

now why do auction houses continue to use the services that treat them like ship?

toybulldog
10-28-2012, 04:03 AM
now why do auction houses continue to use the services that treat them like ship?

Because they relieve themselves of the responsibility. Are they treating the auction houses like ship or are the TPA's and the auction houses together treating customers and unsuspecting buyers like ship? If no one was watching the watchers on this particular item who knows how high the false TPA added value would have brought this item up?

toybulldog
10-28-2012, 05:32 AM
I have a restaurant near my house who's sign reads "Worlds Greatest Hamburgers" ........Its a big world and I think their claim is probably false. BUT its a decent burger.
PSA says they are the worlds leading authenticator or whatever it is they say. Or the Best authentication service in the world or whatever.....Its called "marketing" and its up to the consumer of that product to determine if its not true or is true. If the business survives maybe that represents VALIDATION.
But there is a theory created by Darwin that says that in nature and origin of species, ESPECIALLY with regards to free enterprize that those that are not suited to their environment will not survive. TIME seperates fact from fiction. Naturally,
Despite anything we say or do. PSA has been in business for a good long while , ( I was there and I think its been about 12 years) If people want to spend their money there it is their CHOICE , Good or bad. They have every right to do it. My personal opinions OR ANYONE ELSES are invalid. The stronge survive , good eventually triumphs over evil.
So if collector "A" believes in that service and wants to spend his Bucks on it , I support him. And I support PSA , just as I support AAA, and AA and AARP and the NAACP or anything else you can place the letter "A" in ...because eventually ................TIME , not these posts will determine...fact from illusion. What a country !!!!
_________________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

I'm not so sure that is a good analogy when compared to this situation. When you went to the burger joint you ordered the "world's greatest burger", the burger was served to you, you ate it and you know what you got. Here, in this particular case you are paying for a service and don't even know if the service is being performed the way it is being sold/advertised/marketed to you. PSA/DNA claims they do this with every autograph they analyze:
http://www.fighttoys.com/PSA%20authentication%20process%201a%20PSA.jpg

After seeing this particular auction lot, which was "authenticated" by PSA/DNA, how is is possible that this "four-level Authentication System" was performed and that PSA/DNA would then offer a LOA stating:

"The signature(s) is/are consistent considering slant, flow, pen pressure, letter size, and other characteristics that are typical of the other exemplars that we have examined in our hobby or professional career."

PSA/DNA could put this whole thing to rest, come on here and show us the other exemplars that are consistent and typical when compared to this auction lot but they choose not to.

Does collector "A" necessarily believe in these TPA services or are a majority of these auction houses telling him he needs to use them to be accepted by their service?

If PSA/DNA in this particular case does not have consistent exemplars or have any evidence to support the Marciano signed gloves then are they "strong" or are they "full of shit"?

Is their offering their LOA based on honesty and led by their conscience or is it a gift to a start-up auction house that they want to land to enhance their credibilty?

My problem isn't with them stating that they are the "world's leading autograph experts", my problem is with them stating they are "authenticators".

authenticate: to prove or serve to prove that something is genuine

As I've mentioned in another thread, according to the definition above I've never seen an autograph that has been authenticated by PSA/DNA. They don't prove or serve to prove anything. They only issue non-evidence based letters with vague and unsubstantiated comments.

I have alot more respect for the little burger joint serving up an honest product. PSA/DNA, are they serving a delicious burger or are they serving cat's eyes fried in snot?

I wish I was in a position to investigate but unfortunately I'm not. Bureau of Consumer Protection, FBI take note, press for answers. People being duped, people being financially harmed? $25,000 dollars? A thank you for pulling an item that isn't real?

travrosty
10-28-2012, 10:07 AM
no one has ever been able to determine just what they do when they look at a piece. they claim to use exemplars. Well, where is the exemplars for the glove that they used? It's MIA.

they check slant, flow, pen pressure, really? did they use provenance as a crutch for this glove? how much did provenance factor into their determination?

There loa does not mention provenance as one of the factors they use in coming to an opinion.

They first authenticated a Thomas Sayers autograph for Heritage, then pulled their authentication after they got caught with no exemplars, but still believed the piece to be real. How? Must have been provenance. Believing the provenance is dangerous business. It is nice to have only after an autograph has been investigated, compared and authenticated in the first place. It can't take the place of exemplars.

toybulldog
10-28-2012, 03:23 PM
They first authenticated a Thomas Sayers autograph for Heritage, then pulled their authentication after they got caught with no exemplars, but still believed the piece to be real. How? Must have been provenance. Believing the provenance is dangerous business. It is nice to have only after an autograph has been investigated, compared and authenticated in the first place. It can't take the place of exemplars.

I remember the Sayers incident, now lets revisit it because it does have many similarities to the PSA/DNA bogus authentication seen here. Heritage was auctioning this alledged 1859 Tom Sayers letter accepting a fight with American rival John C. Heenan:
http://www.fighttoys.com/Sayers,Tom%201859%201a%20SR.jpg

Sayers signature is rare and no known authentic examples are kown yet Heritage's item description listed the item as including a full LOA from PSA/DNA and a full LOA from JSA:
http://www.fighttoys.com/Sayers,Tom%201859%201b%20SR.jpg

Complaints from knowledgeable boxing collectors started to come in and the item description changed. Now the TPA's believe the item is authentic but are unable to issue paperwork due to lack of exemplars.
http://www.fighttoys.com/Sayers,Tom%201859%201c%20SR.jpg
If there are no exemplars to compare to then how can they believe it is authentic?

Somewhere in there a friend of the hobby supplied us with a copy of Sayers' passport which was signed by him in 1860.
http://www.fighttoys.com/Sayers,Tom%201860-1-7%201a%20SR.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Sayers,Tom%201860-1-7%201b%20SR.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Sayers,Tom%201860-1-7%201c%20SR.jpg
Note that Sayers was known to be illiterate and could only manage to sign his mark, an "X" which was witnessed by John Gideon.

Now looking at this objectively, if Sayers could only manage to sign an "x" in 1860 is it likely that he could sign his full name the year prior in 1859? And is it possible that not only did he sign his full name in 1859 but he also penned an entire acceptance letter to fight John C. Heenan? Now, not just a signature of Thomas Sayers but some of the most fabulous content that one could imagine?

Folks, do TPA's authenticate autographs for certain people/auction houses without having any consistent exemplars or supporting evidence?

Do they truly use their "Autograph Authentication Process" pictured in my previous post or is that a false claim/marketing tool?

Is the Tom Sayers eerily similar to the situation with the Marciano signed gloves?

Are some auction houses shown a favortism by this publicly traded company? Is their relationship with certain auction houses a cozy one?

http://www.fighttoys.com/Sayers,Tom%201859%201d%20SR.jpg

Signed by Thomas Sayers or $10,755 elaborate hoax?

travrosty
10-28-2012, 03:51 PM
they have exemplar brain freeze.


Here is an scp auction of a joe choynski autograph.

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=8717



It gives a full loa from PSA. It was from 2007 when they don't think anyone is going to question if they actually have exemplars or not.

recently a couple of Choynski autographs went off at heritage, but psa and jsa declined to rule because of lack of exemplars. Now people are questioning them so they bail on their claim that they actually have Choynski exemplars.


http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=81202

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7065&lotNo=82803

So how did the SCP Choynski autograph previoously get a PSA cert, (which the loa list that it was compared to exemplars), if it doesnt seem to have any choynski exemplars this time when these items were listed at heritage?

Seems like they are getting challenged and caught and didnt opine this time, but previously felt they could opine with exemplars that they didnt have? Notice they didn't even use the SCP Choynski autograph, which they claimed had exemplars to back that one up, as an exemplar for the two at heritage. Now they have no exemplars.

This is the big problem in the hobby. they try to get away with what they think they can get away with and they believe people are NOT paying attention.

So my question to PSA - Do you have Choynski autograph exemplars or not?

if not, what do you say to the person who bought the choynski autograph at SCP and proudly displays the psa cert that says it matches known exemplars? Are you recallibg the SCP Choynski cert and refunding the buyer?

In any other business in America, we all know what this represents.

This and the Sayers and others are a big BOXING FAIL!!!!!

RichardSimon
10-28-2012, 03:58 PM
Are some auction houses shown a favortism by this publicly traded company? Is their relationship with certain auction houses a cozy one?



It is a question I have been asking for a very long time.
Just asking, waiting for an answer.
And to add to the exemplar questions ,,, did they have exemplars of Ed Delahanty when they both authenticated an Ed Delehenty handwritten letter, that was eventually proven to be written by his manager/agent. If they had exemplars did they have one where he misspelled his own name??

toybulldog
10-28-2012, 04:23 PM
Guys, I think they now know that they are being watched and can't get away with half of what they used to. You think you would have seen this in a Heritage listing just three or four years ago:

PSA/DNA and James Spence Authentication have declined to rule due to lack of exemplars.

No way, they'd be listed with full LOA PSA/DNA and full LOA JSA with a description of the finest example extant. Now they don't know who signed those Choynski's, his manager, wife, sister, mother, brother or the King of Siam for all they know.

travrosty
10-28-2012, 04:46 PM
psa has been in business for over 13 years doing autographs and only recently they decline to rule due to a lack of exemplars for auction houses, i wonder why? did a bunch of exemplars get burned up in a fire or something.

they know they are being audited now. and still they cert the wife signed liston and can't get it right so what;s the point?


If citizen Travis or citizen mark or citizen Rich submitted the Thomas Sayers all by itself with a submission form, or submitted the Marciano signed gloves with a submission form and fee, would they get a cert, or come back as bogus?

People, you can make up your own minds.

Richard the answer, the friend is blowing in the wind, and they are winds of change. psa gives an loa to whatever they feel like it and there is no one watching the watcher, no one auditing them. they dont have a transparent system and if they werent doing anything wrong, they would come on here, defend themselves, and join the discussion. but joe o. has a tee time and reservations at the Russian Tea Room so he can't be bothered.

keithsky
10-28-2012, 05:23 PM
The way the auction companies get around being responsible is using the word "OPINION" in there certs. Anybody can have an opinion and they have there's. People are so brainwashed with these companies that they think no matter what they authenticate it's real and with the word Opinion these companies don't have to worry about being held accountable. There certs in the early days used to say Guarantee to be Authentic or words to that affect and now it's our Opinion. Thery are right most of the time but it makes me mad when they are wrong and someone calls them out on it they don't apoligize or state why they think it's wrong. They keep quite till everything dies down and people move on.

RichardSimon
10-28-2012, 05:48 PM
The way the auction companies get around being responsible is using the word "OPINION" in there certs. Anybody can have an opinion and they have there's. People are so brainwashed with these companies that they think no matter what they authenticate it's real and with the word Opinion these companies don't have to worry about being held accountable. There certs in the early days used to say Guarantee to be Authentic or words to that affect and now it's our Opinion. Thery are right most of the time but it makes me mad when they are wrong and someone calls them out on it they don't apoligize or state why they think it's wrong. They keep quite till everything dies down and people move on.

I don't think a TPA COA ever said guarantee to be authentic.
The autograph dealer who collects the money from the collector is the one who has to issue a guarantee of authenticity.
I agree with most of what you say but TPA's never guaranteed anything as far as I can remember.
If a company spends a ton of money on advertising then you might be able to successfully brainwash the public.

keithsky
10-28-2012, 06:15 PM
I believe you are right Richard. Sorry my mistake about the Guarantee to be authentic statement. Must have had a brain fart or was so pumped up about these TPA I wasn't thinking straight.

drc
10-28-2012, 07:05 PM
But they are offering their opinion and they say they are offering their opinion. If a collector takes their stated as opinion opinion as something else, is that PSA's fault or the collector's?

travrosty
10-28-2012, 07:09 PM
But they are offering their opinion and they say they are offering their opinion. If a collector takes their stated as opinion opinion as something else, is that PSA's fault or the collector's?



in my book its psa's fault because their loa's say they compare to exemplars, and if they don't, its misrepresentation. They tell the customer what their opinion entails, that they compare to exemplars, and pen pressure, flow, etc.

so they set the standard on which their opinion is offered. if they do not hold themselves to that standard, of which the customer expects, then they are misrepresenting. if they did what their loa said they do, but their opinion just stinks, then they would be just be a service whose opinion stinks, but i think there is something more to it.

Fuddjcal
10-29-2012, 12:53 PM
psa has been in business for over 13 years doing autographs and only recently they decline to rule due to a lack of exemplars for auction houses, i wonder why? did a bunch of exemplars get burned up in a fire or something.

they know they are being audited now. and still they cert the wife signed liston and can't get it right so what;s the point?


If citizen Travis or citizen mark or citizen Rich submitted the Thomas Sayers all by itself with a submission form, or submitted the Marciano signed gloves with a submission form and fee, would they get a cert, or come back as bogus?

People, you can make up your own minds.

Richard the answer, the friend is blowing in the wind, and they are winds of change. psa gives an loa to whatever they feel like it and there is no one watching the watcher, no one auditing them. they dont have a transparent system and if they werent doing anything wrong, they would come on here, defend themselves, and join the discussion. but joe o. has a tee time and reservations at the Russian Tea Room so he can't be bothered.

+1

mighty bombjack
10-29-2012, 10:00 PM
in my book its psa's fault because their loa's say they compare to exemplars, and if they don't, its misrepresentation. They tell the customer what their opinion entails, that they compare to exemplars, and pen pressure, flow, etc.

so they set the standard on which their opinion is offered. if they do not hold themselves to that standard, of which the customer expects, then they are misrepresenting. if they did what their loa said they do, but their opinion just stinks, then they would be just be a service whose opinion stinks, but i think there is something more to it.

You both have it right. They (the alphabets) are only offering an opinion. And too many take that opinion as fact (because it sells), so they have taken undue license with the issuing of those opinions. Shady business, to be sure, but what is new in sports memorabilia?

If the alphabets don't clean up, they will go away. We will still be here.

toybulldog
10-30-2012, 08:20 PM
an extremely well known , well respected collector and dealer in sports memorabilia for the past 25 years

What I would give to find out who that is.

We contacted a forensic ink lab and had it verified that the ink the gloves were signed in was available since 1962

An image or posting of the examination report would be interesting also.

JimStinson
10-30-2012, 08:43 PM
This thread has gone on long enough, even actor Jeff Goldblum has posted a comment on it please take 4 seconds to view his comments regarding this issue and then please lets drop it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JFfN5pKzFU

toybulldog
10-31-2012, 05:19 AM
When my name is mentioned in a thread I wasn't aware there would be a time limit for which I would be able to comment . If anyone would care to post on my thread be aware, there are no time constraints. Would like to dig a little deeper here but getting the impression it would rather be swept under.

Mr. Zipper
10-31-2012, 07:31 AM
When my name is mentioned in a thread I wasn't aware there would be a time limit for which I would be able to comment . If anyone would care to post on my thread be aware, there are no time constraints. Would like to dig a little deeper here but getting the impression it would rather be swept under.

A dedicated thread with CAPs announcing an item has been pulled and that is "sweeping under the rug"? :confused:

I can see why you and Travis are friends. Same effervescent charm, world-class diplomacy skills and friendly writing style. :D

jgmp123
10-31-2012, 09:19 AM
Goldin did the right thing by pulling the item and posting here to make sure any potential bidders would be aware.

Let's not stretch this out anymore. Pretty sure the point that made. Well...actually, the point was made about 120 threads ago.

I guess all I am really trying to say is....Quit hijacking threads.:eek:

toybulldog
10-31-2012, 09:29 AM
A dedicated thread with CAPs announcing an item has been pulled and that is "sweeping under the rug"?

No, the comment...

"please lets drop it"

... in addition to the private emails I've been receiving would indicate that.

I can see why you and Travis are friends. Same effervescent charm, world-class diplomacy skills and friendly writing style.

Your sarcasm and side of the neck comments will not deter.

JimStinson
10-31-2012, 10:07 AM
The video was meant to be funny not controversial :) and applies to both sides of the argument. But if there is more to be said by all means carry on, and on

Leon
10-31-2012, 10:13 AM
New Net54baseball rule- Mark O's threads can only have 41 posts. Since this is number 41 I guess it's over. Case closed :).

toybulldog
10-31-2012, 10:18 AM
I guess all I am really trying to say is....Quit hijacking threads.

I’m not hijacking this thread, I was made part of it:

“The other (Mark Ogren) did not respond to several requests by email or phone.”

“I also again invited Travis and Mark to look at the gloves and render an opinion in person at my expense for their travel. Travis mentioned he lived to far away, and Mark replied after I had completed all my other research (first reply to me since start of the post).”

As was PSA/DNA made part of it:

"After a review on site in NJ as well as a review in CA, PSA/DNA issued two LOAs , one for each signed glove. Complete with the PSA/DNA certification as well as the notarized letter we placed the gloves into the November 17th auction."

“We respect PSA/DNA and their good work”

Hence my comments, questions and evidence pertaining to PSA/DNA.

I would subsitute the word "hijacking" with "challenging".

toybulldog
10-31-2012, 10:21 AM
New Net54baseball rule- Mark O's threads can only have 41 posts. Since this is number 41 I guess it's over. Case closed

A rule in my honor, I'm flattered though I just broke it. I suppose I'll end it at 43, that's as good as I can do Leon.

Leon
10-31-2012, 10:47 AM
A rule in my honor, I'm flattered though I just broke it. I suppose I'll end it at 43, that's as good as I can do Leon.

I think the auctioneer did the right thing, and as I told him previously, this auction isn't his biggest obstacle to current successful business.

Ok, forget about the rule of 41 posts.....

toybulldog
10-31-2012, 11:27 AM
I think the auctioneer did the right thing, and as I told him previously, this auction isn't his biggest obstacle to current successful business.

As do I, this auction house chose evidence over an opinion letter which contains no supporting information or evidence. This is not always the case, some auction houses turn their heads the other way and ignore it and some hand out account suspensions which I can confirm from first-hand experience. I have much more respect for those who take responsibility for their listings rather than pawn it off to a TPA. Integrity prevailed over $$ dollar signs this time.

RichardSimon
10-31-2012, 11:53 AM
"some hand out account suspensions which I can confirm from first-hand experience." - Mark

+1,, and I think we all know who he means.

travrosty
10-31-2012, 10:39 PM
me too, i think we know who he means, i am suspended from mickey mouse auctions as well, a subsidiary of fly-by-night industries.

all for letting them know their boxing offerings weren't up to snuff. thats the thanks we get. i suppose they thought they were giving us an Ivy league education but i already got an education from the college of hard knocks so no need to bother.




on a separate note, I do wish goldin auctions a good auction. i was always willing to let anyone know just why an autograph didnt pass the smell test. I don't know why psa doesnt do the same thing.

i am not a big talker over the phone. never have been. but that's life.

toybulldog
11-01-2012, 01:06 PM
My mistake, I should have said "one" hands out account suspensions. Write about TPA's or point out one of their bogus authentications that happens to be one of their lots and look out, it's get back time.