Ruth/Gehrig Help, Thoughts, Ideas for research

[cottnat]

Good evening all. First post ever. I was referred to this site from patneshek.com (very Twins heavy site and more lower end stuff).

I have in my possession what appears to be an Official American League Baseball (Ban Johnson) from around 1927 (blue & red laces). The person I acquired it from claimed it was his grandfather's who passed away a few years ago. He had sold the other baseballs after being told that they were likely "clubhouse signatures". He had the sense to keep the ball out of his home because he was/is a smoker and stored it at his friends house until the day I came to buy it. The ball appears to have all the legitimate stamping and signs of being a legitimate baseball from the mid-late 1920's. The autographs on the ball seem to be of the 1927 New York Yankees including Babe Ruth (on the sweet spot) & Lou Gehrig. There are a few autographs that are missing or have faded so bad you cant see (Tony Lazzeri, Ray Morehart, Benny Bengough, Walter Beall) but the rest are there and seem to be pretty close to the autographs I could find on eBay that were PSA/DNA authenticated (not saying PSA is gospel, but it is what it is).

What makes the ball even more interesting, is some sort of connection to the National Air Show. Someone at some point wrote on the ball "National Air Show Waco "8" 1927. There also appears to be 3 autographs in black pen (the baseball player autographs are in blue) that arent tied to the Yankees. I can't make out two of the three, but the one I can read says "John P. Wood" who was a professional pilot during those air shows in the 20's until he passed away in a trip over California. Two coincidences. #1: the guy I purchased it from has the last name of Wood, but said his grandpa and great grandpas names were not John and he had no recollection of that being in his family. #2: John P. Wood flew the plane called the "Baby Ruth" which was sponsored by the candy and if I remember correctly, the candy was named after a President's daughter, not the Great Bambino.

My hope is that you guys can give me some tips or tricks to help solidify its authenticity by taking a look the pictures below and maybe giving me some things that are red flags or things that would lead you to believe that it's legitimate (especially Ruth & Gehrig's autos). I have been in the hobby long enough to know that there is plenty of fake stuff out there and that forgers have gotten great at finding ways to "age" ink and baseballs. I also would love any resources or suggestions on being able to do some additional research that I can provide to PSA/DNA to help solidify the authenticity if it truly is good.

Thanks a ton in advance. I can post additional pictures if need be, these are the 3 I have right now.

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/IMAG0175.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/IMAG0172.jpg

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/IMAG0173.jpg

[JimStinson]

Based on the scan Looks GOOD to me
___________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

And the Gehrig signature fits the 1920's time frame , is Giard and Grabowski on the ball ? On the other panels. Nice snag

[cottnat]

here are the two you asked about. Their autos aren't quite there, but I guess I would rather have a pretty good Ruth & Gehrig instead.


Giard
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/IMAG0176.jpg


Grabowski
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/IMAG0177.jpg

[David Atkatz]

It's definitely a 1927 ball.

[JimStinson]

Bingo !

[cottnat]

Bingo !

I am fairly new to this era of baseball memorabilia (never thought I would be in a position to own a ball like this).

Is there something specific to Giard & Grabowski that help the chances of this ball being legitimate or was it more out of curiosity?

[David Atkatz]

Giard is one of the "keys" to a '27 ball, having only played for the Yanks that year. Grabowski's is a fairly rare signature, as he died in a house fire in the 1940s.
Neither signature makes it more likely the ball is genuine; in fact, if one were to forge a '27 ball, either (or both) would most likely be there.
What leads us to believe the ball is genuine is the fact that he ball is right, and the signatures are right. As Jim pointed out for the Gehrig signature--which changed quite a bit over the years--the signature is correct for the time. That holds true for other signatures as well.
From a vintage Yankee collector's (me) point of view, it's too bad that the aviation signatures appear. (And I'm a pilot, as well.) But it is a very rare and desirable ball, in rather good shape.
Congratulations on a great acquisition.

[cottnat]

Thanks x1000 for all the help. It makes me feel a lot better about the purchase to this point. Any idea on the value on this if PSA authenticates all the signatures? I only have $1,000 into it (plus the authentication costs) so if it is authentic, I will have found a steal on good ole craigslist.

Any opinions on how to go about having PSA look at it? I have some people that say DONT SHIP IT. I have some saying bring it personally to a show, I have some say even if they think its good at a show, they will want to bring it to CA anyway.

[David Atkatz]

That's easily a $15,000+ baseball.

[cottnat]

Sorry for all the questions, this is just completely new territory to me. What is the best way to go about preserving this ball? Its in sort of a crummy case at this point.

[David Atkatz]

Put it in a ball cube, touch only the seams, and keep it away from bright lights and especially sunlight.
It lasted this long by basically being left alone. Keep that up.

[cottnat]

Put it in a ball cube, touch only the seams, and keep it away from bright lights and especially sunlight.
It lasted this long by basically being left alone. Keep that up.

Should I leave the black base that the baseballs now come with or let it sit on the 3 prong base? Or am I over thinking it?

[cubsfan-budman]

pro mold (and others) make 25-year UV protectant ball holders. i'd grab one of those, at the minimum.

i'd assume getting it put into a PSA holder at some point would be even better, as folks use those for the most expensive balls i've seen.

[Big Dave]

One heck of a find for a 1000.00.

Very nice.

[isaac2004]

Craigslist? You found a ball that clean, great find. Hot damn get that authenticated, the Ruth and Gehrig are in great shape

[steve B]

Some info about the national air derby in 1927.

Wood was a contestant in a race from NY to spokane.
http://www.drshute.com/archives/000108.html

And a pic of the WACO 8 - the only one made and their first cabin plane seating 6.
http://www.aerofiles.com/waco-8x.jpg

Interestingly the info I can find says the waco 8 was built in 1924 and sold to a KC company that used it for aerial mapping.

One of the pictures of Woods Baby Ruth plane which is also a WACO shows an 8 on the tail. I'm thinking that was the race number, since there are also pics out there with it numbered 4 and 118

Woods Baby Ruth plane is still around, freshly restored.
http://flyingantiqueairplanes.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html

Baby Ruth also sponsored some Waco 9s and at one point promoted the candy by throwing a bunch of it out of the plane.
Makes me wonder if the ball wasn't a similar item, tossed from the plane or as a prize with a ticket tossed along with the candy?

Really cool item overall, and some research could make it even cooler.

Maybe contacting the WACO club?

http://www.nationalwacoclub.com/


Steve B

[JimStinson]

Thats the first thing I think I've ever seen come out of Craigs list that wasn't overpriced "junk" or fake. Nice snag !
What I'd suggest you do now is start marketing your own line of laminated four leaf clover key rings and rabbits feet, because you've earned the handle of "Mr Lucky" :)
_________________________
Buying and selling vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[isaac2004]

Where do you live if you don't mind? Maybe CL people over there are of a new breed :)

[cottnat]

Craigslist is no different here, just got lucky.

[Mr. Zipper]

Thats the first thing I think I've ever seen come out of Craigs list that wasn't overpriced "junk" or fake. Nice snag !
What I'd suggest you do now is start marketing your own line of laminated four leaf clover key rings and rabbits feet, because you've earned the handle of "Mr Lucky" :)
_________________________
Buying and selling vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

Seriously. You could watch CL every day for a decade and not come out nearly as well.

[JimStinson]

I am fairly new to this era of baseball memorabilia (never thought I would be in a position to own a ball like this).

Is there something specific to Giard & Grabowski that help the chances of this ball being legitimate or was it more out of curiosity?

In addition to attempting to help you specify the year, the reason I asked about Joe Giard is that (on paper) his autograph alone is more valuable than either Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig.
__________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[cottnat]

In addition to attempting to help you specify the year, the reason I asked about Joe Giard is that (on paper) his autograph alone is more valuable than either Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig.
__________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage autographs for over three decades
jim@stinsonsports.com


Very interesting. What makes him so tough or rare? Why is it that his auto on paper is worth so much more than on a ball? Is his auto on the ball I have make it worth the $15,000+ or is it more so Ruth/Gehrig doing that?

Sorry for so many more questions, I just find this fascinating.

[David Atkatz]

Giard is rarer on paper items than he is on team baseballs. In addition some people construct framed and matted signature displays of all members of the team, and to do so, you need a Giard.
What makes your ball valuable is that it's a reasonably complete 1927 Yankees team ball, in very good condition. It is the most desired of all team balls--many collector's "Holy Grail."
The key to a particularly desirable 1927 ball is the presence of all the starter's signatures, along with those of the primary pitchers. After that, it's nice to have the rarer autographs--especially manager Huggins--but Giard's presence or absence does not change the value of the ball much, if at all.

[cottnat]

Makes sense, thanks again for the insight and help. I couldn't help but keep checking this site from time to time all day today and last night just to keep learning more about it. I really do appreciate all the feedback and expertise.

[cottnat]

Final Pics before I put it away in a safe today. Just thought I would share pictures with a little more detail to confirm signatures on the ball.

Sweet Spot:
Babe Ruth
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/RuthSS.jpeg

Panel 1: top to bottom
Myles Thomas
Earle Combs
Julie Wera
Cedric Durst
Miller Huggins, but seems off? Other ideas?
Pilot signatures including John P Wood?
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel1.jpeg
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel12.jpeg
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/oppoSS.jpeg

Panel 2: top to bottom
Lou Gehrig
George Pipgras
Mark Koenig
Mike Gazella
Bob Meusel
Herb Pennock
Bob Shawkey
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel2.jpeg
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel23.jpeg

Panel 3: top to bottom
Wilcy Moore
Urban Shocker
Pat Collins
Dutch Ruether
Joe Giard
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel3.jpeg
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel32.jpeg

Panel 4: top to bottom
John Grabowski
Joe Dugan
Ben Paschal
Mystery signature?
Waite Hoyt
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel42.jpeg
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/Panel4.jpeg

Ball Decals:
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/cottnat/BallDecal.jpeg

[David Atkatz]

The "mystery signature" is that of coach Don Miller.

[David Atkatz]

That is one of the nicest '27 balls I have ever seen.
It's worth quite a bit more than $15k!

[mighty bombjack]

That Miller Huggins doesn't seem off to me, it looks good.

[cottnat]

Well that's good to hear that there are a couple more good looking autos on the ball. It's too bad it is missing a few of the players, especially Tony Lazzeri

[cottnat]

That is one of the nicest '27 balls I have ever seen.
It's worth quite a bit more than $15k!


Well that is exciting news too. Does it have $20k upside or is $15k seem to be a pretty safe bet?

[isaac2004]

Well that is exciting news too. Does it have $20k upside or is $15k seem to be a pretty safe bet?

If you are worried that much on price, just resell it. Put it on an auction house and see how much you get for it.

[cottnat]

If you are worried that much on price, just resell it. Put it on an auction house and see how much you get for it.

Just curious is all. Like I have said in past posts, I know the market for most of the guys that are alive still or recently past away, but this is a whole new territory for me and it's not like eBay has a bunch of great examples with there being such a wide range of differences between the baseball itself, who is on it, the condition it is in, etc.

[David Atkatz]

At a major auction house it should have no problem fetching $20k+.

[cottnat]

I'm pretty excited Huggins is on there. Always like to have the manager on a team signed ball.

[earlywynnfan]

Looks like Spence blew this one. Supposedly Giard, but it's Joe Grace. I have contacted Spence and the seller of the ball. Anyone care to post screen shots?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251175243883


Ken

[thecatspajamas]

http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_1.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_2.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_3.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_4.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_5.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_6.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_7.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_8.jpg
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/thecatspajamas99/L-/22/Giard_11.jpg

[JimStinson]

.

[JimStinson]

.

[PhilNap]

The "mystery signature" is that of coach Don Miller.

Miller was actually a player but never saw game action. He was a young pitcher who joined the team mid season striaght from graduating from Michigan. He remained with the team through the World Series. I have seen a news article which references him tossing BP before a World Series game.

[cottnat]

Miller was actually a player but never saw game action. He was a young pitcher who joined the team mid season striaght from graduating from Michigan. He remained with the team through the World Series. I have seen a news article which references him tossing BP before a World Series game.

Very interesting, thanks for the info.

[cottnat]

Thought I would give a little update on this. I went to the Chicago Sun Times show this weekend and dropped this ball off to PSA. I was very confident with all the feedback you all gave me, but I figured if I were to sell it some day, it would be nice to have PSA paper work for those buyers that need that security blanket. Ball passed with flying colors, other than they deemed Miller Huggins auto to be a clubhouse signature. Pretty happy with the results, although I didn't need PSA to tell me as I value some of your opinions much more than theirs. I know this is an old thread, but thought I would give a little update on it. Memory Lane Auction house wanted to get it listed right away, I passed.

[jbbama]

Thats fantastic...congrats! :)