T205...a bit of my research

[Wite3]

I have some time this afternoon and want to share a bit of information about the T205 advertising backs. Specifically, the #'s of backs seen as a percentage of total backs. Now, keep in mind that this is NOT all t205 backs ever but as most of you know, I tend to keep information and follow the backs pretty closely. I compiled sales data from ebay, major (and some minor) auction houses, shows (rare now), and even some private sales and data provided by other t205 collectors. My methods I feel are fairly accurate and give a decent representation of the hobby but I certainly missed some things.

The first thing I will post is the last time I publicly shared information on percentages. This was from 2005. Then I will show you what I have now (through 2012). In the last 7 years several large hordes and collections have come to market and several collectors have opened their collections to me. In 2005 the sample size was just over 3100 cards. Now I have data on 22000!! I did not include blank backs in this either. At the bottom, I put a bit of my own analysis but draw your own conclusions.

So...here we go...first the cards from 2005 for those who do not remember:)

Advertiser Color Fact. Code # of cards seen %Total
Piedmont Blue 25 512 16.4
Polar Bear Blue 473 15.2
Sweet Cap. Red 451 14.5
Sweet Cap. Black 25 321 10.3
Sweet Cap. Black 42 309 9.9
Hassan Green 649 307 9.9
Honest Long Cut Black 307 9.9
Sovereign Green 191 6.1
Cycle Black 107 3.4
Hassan Green 30 99 3.2
American Beauty Black 17 .55
American Beauty Green 8 .26
Piedmont Blue 42 6 .19
Broadleaf Black 2 .06
Broadleaf Green 2 .06
Hindu Brown 2 .06
Drum Brown 0 .00

Total 205s taken for this research: 3114

Now the data from 2012.:eek:

Advertiser Color Fact. Code # of cards seen %Total
Piedmont Blue 25 4167 18.9
Polar Bear Blue 3524 16.0
Sweet Cap. Red 3071 14.0
Sweet Cap. Black 25 2125 9.7
Sweet Cap. Black 42 2053 9.3
Hassan Green 649 1761 8.0
Honest Long Cut Black 1739 7.9
Sovereign Green 1580 7.2
Cycle Black 718 3.3
Hassan Green 30 496 2.3
Piedmont Blue 42 205 .93
American Beauty Green 189 .86
American Beauty Black 163 .74
Broadleaf Black 80 .36
Broadleaf Green 71 .32
Hindu Brown 44 .20
Drum Brown 27 .12

Total: 22013

Looking at the two charts you can see a few things. First, the common backs remained relatively the same except the %'s. I can see that Sovereign has increased a bit due to some recent finds while Piedmont 25 has increased a great deal. It is by far the most common back. The rare backs have been selling a bit more often of late including the American Beauties. The Green has moved ahead of the Black there. Also Piedmont 42s have jumped ahead of the American Beauties. In 2005, I had only seen a handful of hindus and no drums. I knew they were around but did not have any data. A few "recent" finds (incl. the St. Louis drum find) have added a bunch of numbers to them. Drum is still the king in rarity with hindu and broadleaf green(khaki) close behind. I am still surprised I do not see Hassan 30s more often.

Lastly, I want to put the caveat out there that this is my data alone and others may disagree. That is fine and I know this is not perfect but I do FEEL that this is a good representation of the back breakdown for T205s.

Joshua

[Leon]

Thanks Joshua.
I might comment more later but just want to give you a big shout out for that data. As a back collector I am very appreciative and I know others will be too.
Can you say if there are other Hindu Hof'ers known, besides Johnson? I have to say, I am a bit surprised that Hindu is much more common than Drums. (common being a very relative term as both seem to be very scarce). I think I have seen quite a few more Drums sold. Maybe the Hindus are in those long established collections that don't see daylight :). thanks again!!

[Vintagecatcher]

I have always been surprised by the lack of discussion with regards to T205 player front/back combinations available compared to the T206 set.

I recently started picking up Chief Meyers T205s, and I have started a back run. I have an Honest Long Cut, Sovereign, Hassan , and Red Sweet Caporal backs so far.

I have seen ones with Piedmont, Polar Bear, and Cycle backs as well. I'm not aware of any place that lists possible player front/back combinations.

Anyone know if any other backs are available for the Chief Meyers T205?

Let me know.


Thanks,


Patrick

[ctownboy]

Joshua,

I don't know if I was a member of this board in 2005 and if I was, I don't remember if I gave you the info on the few T205's that I own. If so, then please disregard the following.

If you would like to add my cards to your list, I would be happy to send you a private message. I only have 14 cards and the "rarest" back seems to be an Hassan green 649.

However, if I can contribute to your research, I would be glad to help,

David

[ethicsprof]

Many thanks for sharing this fine research.
The depth and breadth of your data in the T205 arena has been impressive for some time now. 22000 is a remarkable sampling.
With Leon, I will now spend time incubating the data and get more of an idea of the data's implications for this area of T205 scholarship.
I applaud your generosity in making this offering to the vintage card community
once again. You deserve much credit.
all the best,
barry

[marcdelpercio]

Thanks Joshua! As a longtime collector and admirer of this set, I greatly appreciate your research and insight. I believe that this is a very underappreciated set, and I always welcome any discussion or data which can add to the knowledge base and hopefully get more people interested in the T205s. I hope that someday we will have a definitive master checklist of all possible front back combinations. Data like this will certainly help to give a good foundation for future research.

Great work as always!

[Wite3]

Patrick,
I have Meyers confirmed with the following backs...Cycle, Hassan 30, Hassan 649, Honest Long Cut, Piedmont 25, Piedmont 42, Polar Bear, Sovereign, and Sweet Cap Red.

Joshua

[Wite3]

Leon,
There were two decent sized Hindu finds in the past 15 years. One from the south (Lousiana if I recall) and one on the southern atlantic coast (not sure where) that yielded a "large" find. Several were sold in private sales and a few found there way into Mastro and REA in the early 2000s if I recall. I have no other confirmed Hindu Hofers. There is an unconfirmed report of a Cy Young Hindu in a private collection (two people have told me this but they could not agree on WHOSE collection). The Young would fit the Hindu matrix though so it might be possible.

Joshua

[Leon]

Leon,
There were two decent sized Hindu finds in the past 15 years. One from the south (Lousiana if I recall) and one on the southern atlantic coast (not sure where) that yielded a "large" find. Several were sold in private sales and a few found there way into Mastro and REA in the early 2000s if I recall. I have no other confirmed Hindu Hofers. There is an unconfirmed report of a Cy Young Hindu in a private collection (two people have told me this but they could not agree on WHOSE collection). The Young would fit the Hindu matrix though so it might be possible.

Joshua

I thought you just forgot about my question Joshua. :) Thanks for answering. As of right now I will continue to feel there are no other confirmed Hindu HOF'ers. I am confident that will probably change in the future. Still love the small group I acquired to end up with the Big Train. I also have never wavered on feeling the Gold Borders are some of the very best looking cards in the hobby.

[Wite3]

Leon,
Did not forget...just had to check my notes on the hindus.

BTW, I have no doubt that the hindu numbers will rise. They went through at least three printings of the hindu sheet as I have seen 3 distinct Ames with Hindu backs. I have never seen two of the same drum card though...so it may have only had one printing making them one of a kind cards, for now. I doubt that they only ran one sheet of Drum and three of hindu. There were probably more but you just do not know.

Joshua

PS I emptied a slew of new messages so whoevers bounced...feel free to resend or drop me an email.

[Leon]

Leon,
Did not forget...just had to check my notes on the hindus.

BTW, I have no doubt that the hindu numbers will rise. They went through at least three printings of the hindu sheet as I have seen 3 distinct Ames with Hindu backs. I have never seen two of the same drum card though...so it may have only had one printing making them one of a kind cards, for now. I doubt that they only ran one sheet of Drum and three of hindu. There were probably more but you just do not know.

Joshua

PS I emptied a slew of new messages so whoevers bounced...feel free to resend or drop me an email.


Thanks again, Joshua. On your sightings of Drums, I believe I have seen multiple Mordecai Browns....maybe more than 2-3?

[HercDriver]

I have what I believe is a comprehensive Sovereign list of 123 cards if anybody wants it. Nice work, Joshua!

Take Care,
Geno

[atx840]

This is awesome insight into the set, thank you for sharing! Should have bought the M. Brown Drum on the bay (not Leon's) :(

[CobbSpikedMe]

Hey Joshua,

It's been said already, but what an impressive sample set and depth of research you've shared here. Thank you very much for these figures. I had no idea American Beauty backs were so rare. After 22K samples, still less than 1% for either green or black. Amazing. I guess my example is staying put for a while now that I know this. ;)

Thanks again,

AndyH


.

[KrenBats]

Joshua, awesome research! And thanks for sharing with the group. Not sure you have record of this one, but I actually picked up this Broad Leaf black back today at a card show.

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks Joshua for your research and response!


Patrick

[Matt E.]

Joshua,

Just wondering if you have any info on the blank backs?
Thank you very much for your info... very insightful.

Thanks,

Matt E.

[dog*dirt]

Thanks for all the help you have done for the board. I have sold a lot of T205's I had but cant seem to part with the AB's

[Pup6913]

Thanks for all the help you have done for the board. I have sold a lot of T205's I had but cant seem to part with the AB's

Are those full B bargers or partial?

[peterb69]

Joshua, from a fellow T205 collector, thank you for gathering statistics on the T205 set. You are helping it be tracked like the T206's are.

[dog*dirt]

Are those full B bargers or partial?

Andrew,

Here are front scans.

[Wite3]

Matt,
Blank backs are problematic for me. I own two. Both I consider blank back. Normal card stock for t205, smooth back, just no printing. But i have seen others that appear to be skinned (or had ink bleed through). I have also seen one that looked like it had paper added to it. I have seen about 10 blank backs that I think are true blank backs. Not sure about others...as a result, I feel that the % is insignificant. I also feel that blank backs were never released into packs either. If I recall, it would have violated the law to put blanks into the packs (something about the factory numbers) but other collectors might know more about this. I feel blanks were scrap never intended for packs.

Joshua

[tedzan]

Hi Joshua

Really great stuff.

I'm trying to acquire the various T-brand backs of the following two guys for a couple of collectors.
I'd appreciate it if you can provide me all the different backs that these 2 subjects are found with.



http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/T205donohue50x.jpg


http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/zanted86/SweetCapT205daubert.jpg



Thanks,

TED Z

[T205Guy]

Joshua,

Thanks for all your hard work - it is greatly appreciated! As for "Drum" backs I own the Harry Wolter from the St. Louis find and there is currently an SGC 10 listed on Ebay so that would make at least a second run I suppose...

[insidethewrapper]

Does anyone have a data sheet for the T205 with all the back combinations for each player ? For example : the ultimate master set. I'm interested in Detroit players and all the possible back combinations. For example: how many different Ty Cobb's are possible ? Thanks

[tedzan]

Does anyone have a data sheet for the T205 with all the back combinations for each player ? For example : the ultimate master set. I'm interested in Detroit players and all the possible back combinations. For example: how many different Ty Cobb's are possible ? Thanks

My experience with the T205 Cobb indicates that it can be found with the following 6 backs......

AMERICAN BEAUTY
HASSAN factory 30
HONEST LONG CUT
PIEDMONT factory 25
PIEDMONT factory 42
POLAR BEAR


TED Z

[Wite3]

Ted,
Donahue I have confirmed with:
Cycle, Hassan 30, Piedmont 25.
Daubert I have confirmed with:
Honest Long Cut, Piedmont 25, Polar Bear, Sovereign, Sweet Cap Black 25, Sweet Cap Black 42, Sweet Cap Red

Joshua

[Wite3]

Does anyone have a data sheet for the T205 with all the back combinations for each player ? For example : the ultimate master set. I'm interested in Detroit players and all the possible back combinations. For example: how many different Ty Cobb's are possible ? Thanks

New finds are still happening. I have a fairly complete sheet...if you want to email me I might be able to help this weekend.

BTW, some Detroit players seem harder than others but not quite SPs. Sort of strange that way.

Joshua

[ChiSoxFan]

Joshua,

Thanks for posting the T205 back information. Maybe some day there will be a T205Resource.com for the T205 fans.

Was wondering though, for the American Beauty Black/Green and Broadleaf Black /Green, are they similar to the T206 Hindu Brown/Red where a card has one or the other and not both?

Also, when you get a chance, would you please send me your confirmed list of White Sox players? Minus Donahue, got that from the reply to Ted Z.'s post.

And finally, I have scans of Payne and Olmstead with Drum backs if you need. Cannot remember where I found the scans.

Thanks,
ChiSoxFan

[EvilKing00]

I have some time this afternoon and want to share a bit of information about the T205 advertising backs. Specifically, the #'s of backs seen as a percentage of total backs. Now, keep in mind that this is NOT all t205 backs ever but as most of you know, I tend to keep information and follow the backs pretty closely. I compiled sales data from ebay, major (and some minor) auction houses, shows (rare now), and even some private sales and data provided by other t205 collectors. My methods I feel are fairly accurate and give a decent representation of the hobby but I certainly missed some things.

The first thing I will post is the last time I publicly shared information on percentages. This was from 2005. Then I will show you what I have now (through 2012). In the last 7 years several large hordes and collections have come to market and several collectors have opened their collections to me. In 2005 the sample size was just over 3100 cards. Now I have data on 22000!! I did not include blank backs in this either. At the bottom, I put a bit of my own analysis but draw your own conclusions.

So...here we go...first the cards from 2005 for those who do not remember:)

Advertiser Color Fact. Code # of cards seen %Total
Piedmont Blue 25 512 16.4
Polar Bear Blue 473 15.2
Sweet Cap. Red 451 14.5
Sweet Cap. Black 25 321 10.3
Sweet Cap. Black 42 309 9.9
Hassan Green 649 307 9.9
Honest Long Cut Black 307 9.9
Sovereign Green 191 6.1
Cycle Black 107 3.4
Hassan Green 30 99 3.2
American Beauty Black 17 .55
American Beauty Green 8 .26
Piedmont Blue 42 6 .19
Broadleaf Black 2 .06
Broadleaf Green 2 .06
Hindu Brown 2 .06
Drum Brown 0 .00

Total 205s taken for this research: 3114

Now the data from 2012.:eek:

Advertiser Color Fact. Code # of cards seen %Total
Piedmont Blue 25 4167 18.9
Polar Bear Blue 3524 16.0
Sweet Cap. Red 3071 14.0
Sweet Cap. Black 25 2125 9.7
Sweet Cap. Black 42 2053 9.3
Hassan Green 649 1761 8.0
Honest Long Cut Black 1739 7.9
Sovereign Green 1580 7.2
Cycle Black 718 3.3
Hassan Green 30 496 2.3
Piedmont Blue 42 205 .93
American Beauty Green 189 .86
American Beauty Black 163 .74
Broadleaf Black 80 .36
Broadleaf Green 71 .32
Hindu Brown 44 .20
Drum Brown 27 .12

Total: 22013

Looking at the two charts you can see a few things. First, the common backs remained relatively the same except the %'s. I can see that Sovereign has increased a bit due to some recent finds while Piedmont 25 has increased a great deal. It is by far the most common back. The rare backs have been selling a bit more often of late including the American Beauties. The Green has moved ahead of the Black there. Also Piedmont 42s have jumped ahead of the American Beauties. In 2005, I had only seen a handful of hindus and no drums. I knew they were around but did not have any data. A few "recent" finds (incl. the St. Louis drum find) have added a bunch of numbers to them. Drum is still the king in rarity with hindu and broadleaf green(khaki) close behind. I am still surprised I do not see Hassan 30s more often.

Lastly, I want to put the caveat out there that this is my data alone and others may disagree. That is fine and I know this is not perfect but I do FEEL that this is a good representation of the back breakdown for T205s.

Joshua

Awesome Info Josh thanks!

[EvilKing00]

Question:

as far as all the diff backs in t205 and their rarity:

How much more should I expect to pay for a card with any of these backs.

Example, Lets say im buying a SGC 30 common card for $25, pied 25 back
I would be interested to see a list of all the backs with like a, % or a x, with the inceresed value i should expect to pay.
Example -
polar bear - same price
Cycle .50 more
AB - x2
ETC

[Leon]

Question:

as far as all the diff backs in t205 and their rarity:

How much more should I expect to pay for a card with any of these backs.

Example, Lets say im buying a SGC 30 common card for $25, pied 25 back
I would be interested to see a list of all the backs with like a, % or a x, with the inceresed value i should expect to pay.
Example -
polar bear - same price
Cycle .50 more
AB - x2
ETC


It's really market driven. My guess is that all but the most rare 4-5 don't add values. I would say AB might add 25% or so, Broadleaf 2.5x to 7x or so , and Hindu and Drums are the biggies. It really depends on the card and condition. A common Hindu that would go for $50 with a Piedmont back might go for 15x-30x or more....and a common Drum might go for 25x-35x or more in today's market. These are just educated guesses and others might know more. Those are estimates for commons and a multiple for a HOF'er would be less. I would guess my Hindu Johnson, if it had a Piedmont back, would be $300-$400 in today's market...but with the Hindu back would probably fetch 12x that.....again, just my opinion (and what I figure I have into it).

Also, for comparison's sake, I think I paid about $3500 for my M. Brown with a Drum back in a 4.5 holder last year?....and if it were a Sweet Cap back it would probably be around a $200-$300 card.....again, just guesses on the common back but real data on the Drum....so it's about 12x-15x. Hope this helps....

[EvilKing00]

hmmm yes that does help leon thanks, also, taking 2 common cards both in the same condition, 1 is a polar bear and the other is a cycle or a hassan 30, they are both worth the same, more or less?

[Pup6913]

It all depends on the player. The SP's in the set all have only 3 backs with cycle being very very scarce and comanding a massive premium over a normal cycle backed player. The cycle will always command a small premium over most of the other common backs. It's the tetering point in the backs. After cycle you start seeing bigger jumps on cards. A $15 common in poor condition will fetch $40-50 with an AB back. Not much more than $80-120 for the BL and probably $300-350 for the Drum. If it has an AB green it will not have a BL or Drum back. So AB greens to me are the top card since the AB blacks can have BL and Drum parallels.

[EvilKing00]

interesting - well - i just payed a bit more than I would normally for a common SGC30, cause it had a hassan Fact 30 back. I havent seen one of those recently, and I didnt have that card or that back.

[Leon]

interesting - well - i just payed a bit more than I would normally for a common SGC30, cause it had a hassan Fact 30 back. I havent seen one of those recently, and I didnt have that card or that back.

I would listen to the T205 guys more than me, seriously. That being said I do watch the scarcest backs quite a bit.

[EvilKing00]

The more I think about it, the more I would deff pay a priemum for a Cycle and Hassan 30 MAYBE even a Sovereign, and of course the more rare backs over a ped, polar bear, etc.

Just looking at joshes numbers.

Damn they are just alot more rare, and rare to me = value. :)
(not that im selling)

[EvilKing00]

Just a funny story- and what i have seen the last few months for sale in T205's-

in the last few months of looking to buy T205, i have RARELY come across Piedmont 42's. I have seen plenty of AB (40-50 at least), 2 drums, no Hindu, 4 BL. I have seen 4 piedmont 42. (bought 1 of them)

The latest one i found was a blurry picture, so i sent the seller an email asking what it said.

He said he didnt realise it was a 42, thanked me for calling his attention to it and that he was canseling the listing and not selling it. lmao

[Leon]

Hey Guys & Girls
I generally don't bring up an old thread like this, but we are updating the T205 Scarcity "permanently bookmarked" thread in the Net54 Forum Archive Center on the board (far right icon near top of each page). If anyone wants to chime in with any newer data it would be most appreciated. And thanks again to Joshua for starting the thread originally....

[Alaskanmade]

I took Joshua's data from 2012 and put it into a table which is easier for me to read. Is this still the most up to date data on T205 backs?

[sb1]

Drum count is probably quite a bit higher as there were a couple of small finds, although most were lower grade/altered.

[Leon]

I took Joshua's data from 2012 and put it into a table which is easier for me to read. Is this still the most up to date data on T205 backs?

It's almost hard to believe there are 44 Hindu back T205s. I remember seeing about 3-4, in the last 25 yrs.
.

[orioles70]

It's almost hard to believe there are 44 Hindu back T205s. I remember seeing about 3-4, in the last 25 yrs.

.I agree...I must have missed those Hindu backs...I seem to remember more Drum backs being available

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[sb1]

No doubt that Hindu is the toughest...

[Wite3]

Wow...old thread...yes, there were at least three different Drum back finds in the last 10 years pushing Hindu to now become the rarer.

As to the amount of Hindus seen that is accurate. They have definitely dried up within in the last 10 years and most are in permanent collections.

I mostly stopped tracking around 2015 due to the explosion of sales and auctions. (I once saw the same card sell 5 different times within the span of 18 days!).

I do still think the numbers are fairly accurate (except the Hindu and Drum as discussed before).

Joshua

[Yoda]

Brown seems to have multiple backs. Once held a BL and have a nice Cycle in Al's auction ending tonight.

[orioles70]

I have 2 Hindu backs, 2 Drum backs and 6 Broad Leaf backs with black ink...I am looking for a Broad Leaf back with green ink if anybody has one available

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[MR RAREBACK]

What do you think the market is for
Hindu or drum in a decent looking 1 grade
I wouldn’t mind picking some up

[T205 GB]

I have 2 Hindu backs, 2 Drum backs and 6 Broad Leaf backs with black ink...I am looking for a Broad Leaf back with green ink if anybody has one available

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Broadleaf would come in Olive color. I would love to see the black inked Hindu's and Drum's though. I thought Drum backs were blue.