What is the toughest baseball HOF autograph to obtain?

[the-illini]

With the recent post about a possible Addie Joss signature, it got me to wondering who is the toughest HOFer to find a signature of - is it Joss? King Kelly?

[travrosty]

With the recent post about a possible Addie Joss signature, it got me to wondering who is the toughest HOFer to find a signature of - is it Joss? King Kelly?

yes, and yes, and rube waddell and a few others where there is 1, 2 or none known and mr. stinson can take over from here.

[packs]

I bet there aren't too many Ross Youngs or Candy Cummings around. Probably zero examples from the early negro league players like Pete Hill.

[mighty bombjack]

I bet there aren't too many Ross Youngs or Candy Cummings around. Probably zero examples from the early negro league players like Pete Hill.

There were two Ross Youngs in the August Heritage auction (though that is an anomaly as he is extremely tough).

You're right about Hill and many of the early Negro Leaguers. Cristobal Torriente, Smoky Joe Williams, Bullet Rogan, now those are some hard to find autos.

[keithsky]

Ask the experts at Coach's Corner what the toughest one is to find and they will say none are tough to find

[JimStinson]

There are at least a dozen considered tough to impossible. About 2 dozen which only a few examples exist of , topping my list of perhaps impossible (at least at present) would be
1) Jose Mendez
2) Cristobal Torriente
3) Frank Grant

nearly impossible
4) King Kelly
5) Tim Keefe
6) Hoss Radbourne
7) Buck Ewing
8) Addie Joss
and probably a few others. But the top three "forget it"

I was researching #1 & #2 over 18 years before their induction into the hall, And was never able (even then) to produce a single lead. And that included knocking on doors and even making "cold calls" and being armed with information that even today I've kept secret

[the-illini]

Thanks everyone - I hadn't even considered some of the early negro league players. I would have to think some of those would have to be a miracle to find an example of.

Tim Keefe surprises me that he is that difficult. Didn't he live to be about 75? I know autograph collecting didn't really exist during his lifetime, but I would have thought there were enough checks/government documents over the course of 75 years to keep him off the top 10 of this list.

[Griffins]

are there any post war players that are more difficult than you'd think?
Mike Marshall/Neil Armstrong types that won't sign?

[prewarsports]

John Ward is always the one that surprises me. For his fame and status as an Attorney after his playing days (he was VERY active in the community and one of the top Lawyers in New York), you'd think there would be hundreds of documents with his autograph on them but I would bet less than 20 are out there in collectors hands. Maybe someday a huge cache will be found but I doubt it.

Rhys

[JimStinson]

With regards to the tough Hall of Famers , according to Ron K. who's book is due out soon the only HOFers NOT pictured in his book are
KEEFE & GRANT. Examples of which could not even be found in private archives etc. There is at least one real Keefe that I believe is in a private collection but I've not seen it. No one to my knowledge has ever seen a real Frank Grant.

If you are talking Living non-HOF players Mike G. Marshall tops the list although he's done at least a couple private signings in the last 10 years so not as tough as he used to be. I'm not real up to date on post WW II living non-signers , the guy to refer that question to would likely be Bill Corcoran who is a member of this board but has (so far) remained silent :)

[the-illini]

Jim,

Is this Keefe real? Seems like it went awfully cheap if it was in fact a Keefe cut.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=9559

[esd10]

bid mcphee i dont even know of a example thats been sold

[JimStinson]

There have been several real Bid McPhee autographs sold , A nice GPC sold right after his HOF induction for $7,500. There has been a few other nice McPhee items sell since then
As for the Keefe cut pictured in link above ...some "lucky" bidder got a real bargain
:rolleyes:

[mighty bombjack]

Jim,

Is this Keefe real? Seems like it went awfully cheap if it was in fact a Keefe cut.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=9559

I'm glad you found that as I was about to go searching for it. That is the only (purported) Keefe auto I've ever seen. It seems slowly drawn, but with nothing to compare it to, what else can anyone say? I sincerely doubt that Topps has a record of what the cut comes from. hell, I doubt they have a record of who they bought it from.

I love that the auction says that it comes with authentication from Topps. That means squat as they don't authenticate anything.

[mighty bombjack]

For giggles, here is another cut auto from that 2004 Topps Tribute set. Pop Lloyd is not as tough as most listed here, but you sure don't see many of them.

I wonder where Topps bought these cuts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/POP-JOHN-LLOYD-TOPPS-TRIBUTE-CUT-1-1-/120810302454?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item1c20daebf6

[JimStinson]

Does anyone think they could have picked up some choice autographs on this boat trip ?? S.S. Olivette from Cuba to Tampa May 1917. Look at the names of the first two passengers traveling together
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[JimStinson]

Also to negate the myth that Cristobal Torriente was illiterate , see top right of ship passage document , the question is "Able to read & write" and he answers yes to both

[GrayGhost]

Someone paid 4200 for this GEM:)

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/236/cap-anson-autographedcertified-baseball.aspx

[thetruthisoutthere]

I thought Josh Gibson was difficult to find, but not for Coach's Corner headed by Lee Trythall and Scott Malack.

As a matter of fact, they have a Josh Gibson autographed baseball listed right now.

To discover a Josh Gibson autographed baseball penned in blue ink was quite a discovery for Lee Trythall and Scott Malack.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=337534

73499

73500

[prewarsports]

Didn't Keefe sign the Players League ledgers that sold about 10 years ago in Hunts Auction? I dont know if I can find it or not, but I thought he signed some of the pages of the "minutes" of the meetings as the secretary or something.

[mighty bombjack]

Didn't Keefe sign the Players League ledgers that sold about 10 years ago in Hunts Auction? I dont know if I can find it or not, but I thought he signed some of the pages of the "minutes" of the meetings as the secretary or something.

I forgot about this one. Says it includes Ward, Keefe, Conner, and Welch. yikes!

http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer_online.cfm?auction_num=19&lot_num=1149&lot_qual=

[judsonhamlin]

I haven't seen George Davis' name pop up. I thought he was almost impossible. Given his long career as a player and manager, that always surprised me.

[mighty bombjack]

George Davis is a good one.

I will go ahead and throw this list out there. I have been collecting HOF autographs for some time now, but have only seriously searched major auction houses for toughies over the last few years. Here are the autos I've never seen examples of, for sale or otherwise. I would love links to any examples that anyone has.

Jack Chesbro (P) - 1946
John Clarkson (P) - 1963
Andy Cooper (P), Negro Leagues - 2006
George Davis (SS) - 1998
Buck Ewing (C) - 1939
Pud Galvin (P) - 1965
Frank Grant (2B), Negro Leagues - 2006
Pete Hill (LF), Negro Leagues - 2006
Joe McGinnity (P) - 1946
Bid McPhee (2B) - 2000
José Méndez (P), Negro Leagues - 2006
Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn (P) - 1939
Bullet Rogan (P), Negro Leagues - 1998
Amos Rusie (P) - 1977
Louis Santop (C), Negro Leagues - 2006
Frank Selee (Mgr) - 1999
Mule Suttles (1B - LF), Negro Leagues - 2006
Ben Taylor (1B), Negro Leagues - 2006
Sam Thompson (RF) - 1974
Cristóbal Torriente (CF), Negro Leagues - 2006
Rube Waddell (P) - 1946
Sol White (Builder), Negro Leagues - 2006
Smokey Joe Williams (P), Negro Leagues - 1999
Jud Wilson (3B - 1B), Negro Leagues - 2006

[HOFautosChris]

I am very much looking forward to the release of Ron Hof autograph book in October. As a hall of fame autograph collector I relish the opportunity see examples of the rarities. Also as far as modern hall of famers there are no non signers. While some very rarely sign for free but there all readily available on the show circuit.

[Scott Garner]

George Davis is a good one.

I will go ahead and throw this list out there. I have been collecting HOF autographs for some time now, but have only seriously searched major auction houses for toughies over the last few years. Here are the autos I've never seen examples of, for sale or otherwise. I would love links to any examples that anyone has.

Jack Chesbro (P) - 1946
John Clarkson (P) - 1963
Andy Cooper (P), Negro Leagues - 2006
George Davis (SS) - 1998
Buck Ewing (C) - 1939
Pud Galvin (P) - 1965
Frank Grant (2B), Negro Leagues - 2006
Pete Hill (LF), Negro Leagues - 2006
Joe McGinnity (P) - 1946
Bid McPhee (2B) - 2000
José Méndez (P), Negro Leagues - 2006
Charles "Old Hoss" Radbourn (P) - 1939
Bullet Rogan (P), Negro Leagues - 1998
Amos Rusie (P) - 1977
Louis Santop (C), Negro Leagues - 2006
Frank Selee (Mgr) - 1999
Mule Suttles (1B - LF), Negro Leagues - 2006
Ben Taylor (1B), Negro Leagues - 2006
Sam Thompson (RF) - 1974
Cristóbal Torriente (CF), Negro Leagues - 2006
Rube Waddell (P) - 1946
Sol White (Builder), Negro Leagues - 2006
Smokey Joe Williams (P), Negro Leagues - 1999
Jud Wilson (3B - 1B), Negro Leagues - 2006

Here are Amos and Rube.

BTW, more than one Amos has surfaced, although they are scarce. Perhaps Jim Stinson can chime in. I recall him selling the one of the most recent examples of "The Hoosier Thunderbolt" that I remember selling.

Here is an example of Rube Waddell from Smithsonian Baseball.

[mighty bombjack]

Thanks Scott. I forgot about that Rusie. It just sold recently, no? Legendary or Heritage, I forget.

That Waddell, on the other hand, I've never seen. Is it property of the Smithsonian then? Any info on its provenance?

[David Atkatz]

Here's my Chesbro, on a 1903 Pittsburgh reunion ball:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/chesbro01-25piratesball.jpg

[Scott Garner]

Thanks Scott. I forgot about that Rusie. It just sold recently, no? Legendary or Heritage, I forget.

That Waddell, on the other hand, I've never seen. Is it property of the Smithsonian then? Any info on its provenance?

Wayne,
The Rube Waddell autograph with inscription is from the verso of a cabinet photo of Waddell that was apparently given to a hunting friend of Rube's. It resides in the collection of David Bowen according to the great book Smithsonian BASEBALL by Stephen Wong.

I hope this helps.

[Scott Garner]

Here's my Chesbro, on a 1903 Pittsburgh reunion ball:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/chesbro01-25piratesball.jpg

Awesome ball, David! :eek:

[Scott Garner]

Delete

[JimStinson]

I sold the Amos Rusie (kennel club) pictured above.
I sold a Pirates reunion ball too with Chesbro many years ago although there were several signed balls from that event and seems like the Chesbro on the one I sold was lighter. But heck that was probably 25 years ago.

GEORGE STACEY DAVIS is extremely tough Hall of Famer because he is one of those players that "went missing" after his career as a player ended in 1909. His death in 1940 was not discovered until many years after the fact. See below

Davis vanished into obscurity after his retirement. He worked in baseball as a coach, scout, and manager, while also working at a variety of other jobs that included stints as a professional bowler and an automobile salesman.
The circumstances of his death remained a mystery until baseball historian Lee Allen discovered its details through a campaign to track down historical baseball players, run in part in The Sporting News. He died in Philadelphia of paresis due to tertiary syphilis

[JimStinson]

Here is SMOKEY JOE WILLIAMS 1942 WW II draft card, Signed in lower right. He registered for both the WW I and WW II draft. In 1942 he was tending bar in NYC. I don;t know of any authentic Williams signatures ever being offered for sale.
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Vintage autographs for sale daily recieve my weekly e-mail updates by including your e-mail address at my web site
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[mighty bombjack]

Wow, great stuff guys. Keep the toughies coming!

I'm getting excited for Ron K's book as well.

[prewarsports]

Here is a link with photos to the Keefe autograph, I am surprised Ron didn't remember this when it came up for sale, it was consigned by Keefe's family and the whole thing was written by him not just the signatures in the book (of which there are several). Signed by a bunch of other guys too.

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=19&lot_num=1149&lot_qual

[theshleps]

I have an Andy Cooper on a 3x5 hard stock piece of paper that I bought quite a while ago from negro league expert Wayne Stivers. It is a perfect match to the one in Keatings book. I guess my other rarity is Ned Hanlon that I bought from Jim Stinson

[mighty bombjack]

I have an Andy Cooper on a 3x5 hard stock piece of paper that I bought quite a while ago from negro league expert Wayne Stivers. It is a perfect match to the one in Keatings book. I guess my other rarity is Ned Hanlon that I bought from Jim Stinson

Damn, show those off man! I wanna see scans!

[theshleps]

They are in the bank vault. I should have scanned before putting them there. I am leaving for an extended trip soon and if someone reminds me this spring I will be happy to do it. Jim Stinson might have a scan of the Hanlon since it was in an old list of his

[CMIZ5290]

I have been looking for an eternity for either a joss or waddell autograph on a ball.....no luck

[HexsHeroes]

They are in the bank vault. I should have scanned before putting them there. I am leaving for an extended trip soon and if someone reminds me this spring I will be happy to do it. Jim Stinson might have a scan of the Hanlon since it was in an old list of his

Quality of my image of Jim's 8/1992 listing sucks,
but the print quality of my photocopy of the listing
leaves much to be desired. But I have no doubt
that the actual autograph item is quite impressive.

.

[bender07]

Not my Hanlon but a nice one...

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=370&pictureid=7871

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Not my Hanlon but a nice one...

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=370&pictureid=7871

What do you guys think about this...have no clue about authenticity, but after seeing that cut, it makes me think a little...probably no shot at being real

[bender07]

Here's another tough one that's not mine...

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=370&pictureid=7883

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Here's another tough one that's not mine...

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture.php?albumid=370&pictureid=7883

Is that a Plank on their? 1911 A's or something like that?

[whyconform]

New member, so I'm bringing this back from the dead.

I saw somewhere on here that the new autograph book will not feature a Tim Keefe auto?

According to this guy's website, it seems as if he has a Keefe auto ball?!

http://www.littlecooperstown.com/

[Mr. Zipper]

When I read about the guy having a Joe D + Marilyn dual signed ball, the radar goes off. I'd like to see some close ups of this collection.

[yanks12025]

When I read about the guy having a Joe D + Marilyn dual signed ball, the radar goes off. I'd like to see some close ups of this collection.

I remember a post months ago about a guy having a huge signed baseball collection in a vault, but in the video you could tell several were fake.

So unless this guy is VERY RICH, I doubt all of it is real.

[JimStinson]

there were some (more than a few) Legit ...Tim Keefe signatures sold at auction by the family , The author was aware of them but chose to err on the side of caution , There ARE examples of all the rest including Torriente and Mendez but they are not in the public domain. Ultimately to my knowledge the only Hall of famer that no one can even find an example of is FRANK GRANT.

[yanks12025]

Here's the video. It's actually the same person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szw6Yn18fHo

[packs]

I know this is going to sound crazy but a few years ago I was doing random searches on eBay and I came across a Cristobal Torriente signed postcard. But it was a weird postcard in that it had nothing to with baseball and had this really strange waiter-looking guy on the front. It was definitely signed by A Cristobal Torriente but I had no way to tell if it was THE Cristobal Torriente. It had a Buy It Now of $300. I still regret not taking a flyer.

[Jlighter]

Here's the video. It's actually the same person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szw6Yn18fHo

Is his Joe Jackson auto real?

[JimStinson]

I know this is going to sound crazy but a few years ago I was doing random searches on eBay and I came across a Cristobal Torriente signed postcard. But it was a weird postcard in that it had nothing to with baseball and had this really strange waiter-looking guy on the front. It was definitely signed by A Cristobal Torriente but I had no way to tell if it was THE Cristobal Torriente. It had a Buy It Now of $300. I still regret not taking a flyer.
It was pulled amost immediately from e-bay , bore no resemblence what so ever to Torriente's signature, it was supposed to have been witten to his mother.

[packs]

That makes me feel a lot better. The one I saw just had a pencil signature. I don't remember a note. But it's been a few years.

[yanks12025]

Here's another article with some more photos.

http://www.bigleaguebaseballs.com/main/little-cooperstown/

[mr2686]

delete

[Seven]

I'm wondering if anything over the past decade has changed? Any recent discoveries?

I still believe Mendez and Torriente are probably the hardest Negro League Players to get ahold of. Gibson and Charleston seem notoriously difficult as well, but at least there has been records of sales, of their autographs. Anyone have anything to contribute?

[tazdmb]

There was the northeast find that added 5 new Keefes, and a couple new Ward and and Ewing autographs to the market. Also, I know of two new Sam Thompson autographs (both first name only) discovered about 5 years ago.

[tazdmb]

Also, there was the Wright and Dotson find that added MANY more George Wright autographs to the public and a few more Spladings. Finally, I know of one known Bud Fowler autograph (founded by PrewarSports) that currently resides in the Negro League Baseball Museum.

[Teamgluck]

still nothing by frank grant? any1 else with no known autographs?