Original PB Pack Opened?

[Matt]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320976991735#ht_605wt_1186

[rdwyer]

Too many things wrong here. No Bear on package. Tax stamp overprinting of 1912. Cards are not near mint. (Corner damage) Corner wear on coupon. Looks to me like someone put it together with a story. Ne1 else agree?

[Jason]

I thought the cards looked a little rough as well corner wise.Not what I would expect to see.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Not sure what to say about there not having a bear on the bag. I believe it clearly is either an error pack or had something to do with a promotion that is mentioned on the one coupon. The cards came out of it a long time ago, been handled, been taken in & out of a binder, etc...

I was in Baltimore for the national & saw the prices these boxes and packs have been priced at. But I didn't see one of these. Well, here's a pre-deregulation Polar Bear bag full with 100 year old tobacco and its T205 cards!

[Leon]

Not sure what to say about there not having a bear on the bag. I believe it clearly is either an error pack or had something to do with a promotion that is mentioned on the one coupon. The cards came out of it a long time ago, been handled, been taken in & out of a binder, etc...

I was in Baltimore for the national & saw the prices these boxes and packs have been priced at. But I didn't see one of these. Well, here's a pre-deregulation Polar Bear bag full with 100 year old tobacco and its T205 cards!

So just a few questions. If this is your pack may we know where you acquired it? Was it unopened when you got it? Did you pull the cards out of it yourself? I collect the packs a little bit and am curious.

[Wite3]

Fairly certain those cards did not come out of that pack. The tax stamp looks wrong to me and the cards should actually be in worse condition. About 15 years ago, I watched a PB pack opened. It contained one t205 card and it was a mess...more like the coupon shown...staining much worse, card was tarnished more...corners nice but the card was bowed as well.

Think this is a put together...different elements from different packs/times.

Just my two cents though.

Joshua

[teetwoohsix]

I read the back of the black backed coupon and it talks about cutting the bear off the package to send in towards prizes.

What does the other side of that red backed coupon look like? I've never seen this before.

Sincerely, Clayton

[NYHighlanderFan]

I am letting this one go since picking up another 2.5 oz Polar Bear bag which still has the wax paper over it and an awesome unopened 1909 1 oz trial sample size bag over the past several years. I am selling it exactly as it was acquired from a Buffalo-area sportscard dealer but with the clear display case to keep it protected. Leon...I came over & introduced myself to you in Baltimore! I've never had enough guts to open any of my unopened stuff up. I am letting it go as-is instead of keeping the cards. Not sure about the bear missing but never seen another like it.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Hmmm...not sure how the 1912 tax stamp looks wrong...anyone know what the T205 distribution timeframe was and did it go into 1912? I've always considered it a legit T205 bag.

The one thing I always thought was legit about this bag is its lack of legal jargon with P.Lorillard as successors! No doubt this is a pre-deregulation pack.

[rdwyer]

T206 - 1909-1911
T205 - 1911 Only

[NYHighlanderFan]

Considering how and who it was acquired, it will remain. And as far as how many cards came in a pack, who knows! But there are 2 included here.

[packs]

Why would the pack have two cards?

[NYHighlanderFan]

Who the heck knows! I have read stories on this very forum about upwards of four getting pulled out of a bag! I could keep the cards & just sell the bag. But I feel it should all stick together!!

And as far as the prices I've set as minimums...well I would be happy to discuss values & scarcity of the individual items. I am always trying to educate myself on this science! I am purely going on what I saw at past conventions, auctions & this past National.

[packs]

Well it seems like a fair question. The only time someone posted an opened Piedmont pack photo with the shell case it had only one card inside.

[rdwyer]

Jon Canfield? Calling Jon Canfield. I believe there were no cards distributed in 1912 pouches. I also remember 4 cards per pouch also.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Yes...very legit question! And I appreciate the questions!

Somebody emailed me yesterday & said there was another one online not long ago. It sounded like it didn't have the bear either.

[teetwoohsix]

Hi Joe-

I was just wondering if the back of the red PB coupon had any writing, or is it blank?

This Piedmont coupon had a list on the back of prizes you could claim by mailing in X-amount of coupons. I was just wondering if the PB coupon was similar in this fashion. Granted, this Piedmont coupon expired June 1909, prior to the T206 run (I believe).

Sincerely, Clayton

* side note- around the edges of the backside of the Piedmont coupon you can see they used an invisible type of ink? with the ATC initials- pretty cool for back in those days !!! :D

Also, a special thanks to the wonderful board member who sent this to me, I still really appreciate it !!!!

[ctownboy]

Excuse my ignorance but weren't cards printed for only certain factories (because of legal or tax reasons)? And weren't those cards supposed to have that factory number and district printed on the back?

If so, then if this pack (bag) was produced in Ohio then shouldn't the cards, if they originally came with the pack, have an Ohio factory and district number on them?

David

[Wite3]

David,
The two t205s were from the right factory. They both say Factory 6 dist. o (for ohio).

The cards were first put out in 1911 but there have been examples found in packs with the 1912 tax stamp (and possibly later). They used the cards until they were completely gone.

Also, some packs contained more than one card. I know the t206s often had more than one (especially in the hindu, old mill cards)...and I have seen a tolstoi pack opened that contained two t206s and a t80 (military series).

Joshua

[NYHighlanderFan]

I will take a better photo of the cards backs and the back of the red coupon! I'll post it directly to the ebay listing...within the hour!

I can tell you off the top of my head the coupon back doesn't have the list of gifts like the Piedmont coupon does. It might say something like the coupons with 1908 expiration dates are still valid through 2013.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Okay the new picture is listed! And Joshua's post about the Tolstoi pack...very interesting. It makes me think about the QC inside the tobacco factories...and the women or immigration laborers they had stuffing these packs. I think they grabbed what they want & threw them inside. I also don't think they were too concerned about corners of the cards either! HA!

If they only knew what they would be worth years down the road. These poor people were stuffing packs literally with thousands of dollars & didn't even know it!

[Leon]

I am letting this one go since picking up another 2.5 oz Polar Bear bag which still has the wax paper over it and an awesome unopened 1909 1 oz trial sample size bag over the past several years. I am selling it exactly as it was acquired from a Buffalo-area sportscard dealer but with the clear display case to keep it protected. Leon...I came over & introduced myself to you in Baltimore! I've never had enough guts to open any of my unopened stuff up. I am letting it go as-is instead of keeping the cards. Not sure about the bear missing but never seen another like it.

From all I know I still don't believe these cards were pulled from this pack. We have 0 evidence of it besides an (unknown) dealer saying they were. Though I have never heard of 2 cards in a Polar Bear pack that part of the story wouldn't surprise me.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Yep...agreed Leon! At this point its just a nice Polar Bear lot. And that's what I would like to sell it as.

I must say...seeing grading companies slab Fatima & Piedmont packs from the 1940's-50's with Series of 117 or 121 stamps as 1911 packs flat out sucks! And the claims of WWI 12-packs pulling out white borders might be just as crazy. But I do believe they stuffed them in packs until they were gone...and into 1912 might not really be that far-fetched! After all, they only cared about advertising their product & not the timetable of them being last years cards.

And as far as an unknown dealer...like most of us I've been in this hobby my whole life. That takes me back into the late 1970's. I purchased my Addie Joss Lenox for $5 and my Dad looked at me like I was nuts. I have built several extremely solid relationships through the years with dealers. And a tiny few I see and think are fraudulent crooks. Most are decent, some upstanding. But through the years of passing tables at shows, answering classified ads, auctions, etc...there are some dealers who I just can't remember other than by face.

[Cerberus]

Joe:

I'm happy to sell you my unopened PB pack for 12k. Feel free to pm me, and we'll make payment arrangements.

Michael

[Runscott]

Yep...agreed Leon! At this point its just a nice Polar Bear lot. And that's what I would like to sell it as.

I must say...seeing grading companies slab Fatima & Piedmont packs from the 1940's-50's with Series of 117 or 121 stamps as 1911 packs flat out sucks! And the claims of WWI 12-packs pulling out white borders might be just as crazy. But I do believe they stuffed them in packs until they were gone...and into 1912 might not really be that far-fetched! After all, they only cared about advertising their product & not the timetable of them being last years cards.

And as far as an unknown dealer...like most of us I've been in this hobby my whole life. That takes me back into the late 1970's. I purchased my Addie Joss Lenox for $5 and my Dad looked at me like I was nuts. I have built several extremely solid relationships through the years with dealers. And a tiny few I see and think are fraudulent crooks. Most are decent, some upstanding. But through the years of passing tables at shows, answering classified ads, auctions, etc...there are some dealers who I just can't remember other than by face.

Now you're 'Net 54', so you officially exist :)

[teetwoohsix]

I will take a better photo of the cards backs and the back of the red coupon! I'll post it directly to the ebay listing...within the hour!

I can tell you off the top of my head the coupon back doesn't have the list of gifts like the Piedmont coupon does. It might say something like the coupons with 1908 expiration dates are still valid through 2013.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I just checked it out.
I'd love to see more coupons from other brands, if anyone has any (maybe for another thread?). Anyhow- thanks again.

Sincerely, Clayton

[NYHighlanderFan]

Cerberus! How's everything out west? Did I tell you...the engagement fell through!! I am a free man...living it up down in the Pittsburgh area still.

That pack is gorgeous...the tax stamp is screaming "rip me open"!

[Cerberus]

Sorry (?) that your engagement fell through, Joe. You've always got the Steelers, however.

The PB pack has always screamed to me: "Don't you dare even think about breaking my seal, because you know damn well that whatever card is in here (if any), is so thrashed from rot and product stains after 100 years+, that you'd be lucky to get it graded "Authentic."

Glad all is well.

[NYHighlanderFan]

Ahahahaha...yes, thank you, all is well and sometimes it's funny how things happen for good reasons...and I tell everyone no way I can't root for the Steelers I drank Lake Erie water for too long!

Your pack sure is a beauty. Are you selling it seriously or is 12k your breaking point to let it go? HA! We all know everything is for sale & has a price!

Some of the tobacco fell out of this one & it is dry as a bone. I think the staining of cards would take place in the first couple years while the tobacco was still fresh...definitely not while dry. And the coupon looks to take the majority of the product & packing abuse.