Chipper jones first ballot hofer?

[CMIZ5290]

I say yes, without a doubt. Curious what other members think.....

[BearBailey]

I think without a doubt. He has the numbers, MVP, clutch player, best at his position during his era and never linked to PED's.

[HRBAKER]

I think so too!

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s172/hrbaker/AUTOS/chipper2001.jpghttp://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s172/hrbaker/AUTOS/chipper001.jpg

[39special]

Hands down first ballot!

[Robextend]

Hands down first ballot!

Agree 1000%

[barrysloate]

I think he should be too. And he's having a great final season.

[CMIZ5290]

What would really be amazing is the potential stats he might have if not for alot of injuries. Like mantle, he was hit hard with a serious knee injury when he was very young.....

[majordanby]

What would really be amazing is the potential stats he might have if not for alot of injuries. Like mantle, he was hit hard with a serious knee injury when he was very young....

Same can be said for griffey.

[Jason]

Yes to Chipper going first ballot.Its a shame those injuries cost him 3000 hits.He deserved that moment.

[Touch'EmAll]

Lets be fair - give a serious look at the stats - maybe he is fully worthy of First Ballot, maybe not...

All Star 8 out of 19 years - good, not HOF material
MVP voting - 1st once, next highest 4th, then 8th - Roger Maris won 2
Bat Avg - one 1st, one 2nd, no more top 3 rank
Runs Scored - highest ever rank is 4th
RBI - highest ever rank is 9th
HR's - one 3rd, one 9th, one 10th

Played long time and "accumulated" good stats because he was pretty much injury free (relatively). But not any earth shattering stats, honestly. Good leadership skills.

It took Joe Dimaggio the third attempt before even he was voted in HOF. Roger Maris won 2 MVP's, set biggest single season record of all time and he is not in HOF.

Verdict = He can play on my team anytime, borderline HOF'er after a few attempts. NO WAY first ballot.

[Jlighter]

Lets be fair - give a serious look at the stats - maybe he is fully worthy of First Ballot, maybe not...

All Star 8 out of 19 years - good, not HOF material
MVP voting - 1st once, next highest 4th, then 8th - Roger Maris won 2
Bat Avg - one 1st, one 2nd, no more top 3 rank
Runs Scored - highest ever rank is 4th
RBI - highest ever rank is 9th
HR's - one 3rd, one 9th, one 10th

Played long time and "accumulated" good stats because he was pretty much injury free (relatively). But not any earth shattering stats, honestly. Good leadership skills.

It took Joe Dimaggio the third attempt before even he was voted in HOF. Roger Maris won 2 MVP's, set biggest single season record of all time and he is not in HOF.

Verdict = He can play on my team anytime, borderline HOF'er after a few attempts. NO WAY first ballot.

Sorry, but you could not be more wrong. Your looking year to year instead of an entire resume. Chipper Jones has hit over 450 home runs while batting over .300. Willie Stargell(first ballot) can't make that claim. Eddie Murray(first ballot) can't make that claim. He also comes in at 50 for all time OBP. Above Joe D. Above Rod Carew(first ballot). Above Joe Morgan(first ballot). Above Honus Wagner. And just above Rickey Henderson(first ballot). Mix in the likability of Chipper and you got yourself a first ballot. Plus as of yet no Roids.

In regards to your Joe D not being a first ballot remark. At the time they had a large backlog of players who deserved to be in the Hall, but weren't because the Hall wasn't around till 1939. Jimmie Foxx didn't get in until the sixth.

[David W]

His stats are real close to Billy Williams, and if you factor in Billy's prime years were in the pitcher's era of the 60's, and Chipper played in the offensive boom years of the late 90's, early 2000's, they are about the same player.

Billy took 6 years to get in, I suspect Chipper gets in in less than that.

[Jlighter]

His stats are real close to Billy Williams, and if you factor in Billy's prime years were in the pitcher's era of the 60's, and Chipper played in the offensive boom years of the late 90's, early 2000's, they are about the same player.

Billy took 6 years to get in, I suspect Chipper gets in in less than that.


Billy never won an MVP or a World Series. Nor did he play in one.

[CMIZ5290]

lets be fair - give a serious look at the stats - maybe he is fully worthy of first ballot, maybe not...

All star 8 out of 19 years - good, not hof material
mvp voting - 1st once, next highest 4th, then 8th - roger maris won 2
bat avg - one 1st, one 2nd, no more top 3 rank
runs scored - highest ever rank is 4th
rbi - highest ever rank is 9th
hr's - one 3rd, one 9th, one 10th

played long time and "accumulated" good stats because he was pretty much injury free (relatively). But not any earth shattering stats, honestly. Good leadership skills.

It took joe dimaggio the third attempt before even he was voted in hof. Roger maris won 2 mvp's, set biggest single season record of all time and he is not in hof.

Verdict = he can play on my team anytime, borderline hof'er after a few attempts. No way first ballot.

relatively injury free?? Are you kidding me? Since 2004, he has missed a ton of games.....

[CMIZ5290]

Sorry, but you could not be more wrong. Your looking year to year instead of an entire resume. Chipper Jones has hit over 450 home runs while batting over .300. Willie Stargell(first ballot) can't make that claim. Eddie Murray(first ballot) can't make that claim. He also comes in at 50 for all time OBP. Above Joe D. Above Rod Carew(first ballot). Above Joe Morgan(first ballot). Above Honus Wagner. And just above Rickey Henderson(first ballot). Mix in the likability of Chipper and you got yourself a first ballot. Plus as of yet no Roids.

In regards to your Joe D not being a first ballot remark. At the time they had a large backlog of players who deserved to be in the Hall, but weren't because the Hall wasn't around till 1939. Jimmie Foxx didn't get in until the sixth.

+1

[Touch'EmAll]

Aw, jeez, I didn't expect to get hammered with jabs folks, lighten up. I was full well and willing to see how his stats stacked up - if he was another Ted Williams in the stat department I would have given him BIG props. But honestly, the rankings he has (mind you national league only) just doesn't scream HOF first ballot.

The whole first half of his career he missed between 2 and 10 games per season. I do call that injury free. And the second half of his career he was well within the norm for any ballplayer having mild injuries that still enabled him to play the big majority of games. Take a look at most other players through history and you will see Chipper Jones is in the norm in this department. I said "pretty much, and relatively" injury free - I never said he was bomb proof with the injuries.

[thekingofclout]

if he was another Ted Williams in the stat department I would have given him BIG props.

WoW! Talk about a tough criteria...

[Touch'EmAll]

The original question was if he is a "First Ballot" or not? Yes, he will get in, just not first ballot worthy.

And again I try to give him the benefit of doubt - I forgot to look at his defensive skills - very important overlook on my part, how incomplete I was in initial evaluation.

In reading text from Wikipedia..."on defense, however, his range factor of 2.14 placed him last among the regular major league third basemen who qualified for the fielding ranking."

[majordanby]

Baseball reference compares him to Eddie Mathews, Mike Schmidt, Mickey Mantle, and Billy Williams (other comparable players are either still playing or are his contemporaries). Mathews and Williams were not first ballot, while schmidt and mantle were.

If you look at career fWAR, Jones ranks 33rd, which is pretty darn good considering his injuries (and fWAR is a cumulative stat). Players around him include Ripken, Kaline, Boggs, Brooks Robinson, Dimaggio, Brett, Clemente, Cap anson, Gehringer, George Davis, Luke appling, and Bench. Eliminating the pre war players, Ripken, Kaline, Boggs, Robinson, Brett and Bench were first ballot guys. Griffey is also pretty close to him and my gut tells me he's a first ballot.

Include other circumstances that appear to favor him - well liked by the media, stayed with one team the entire time, many of his contemporaries, though potentially deserving, wont be inducted because of steroid implications, and he hasnt been linked to steroid usage (like griffey, whether we like it or not, many will point to his injuries as proof).

My guess is that he'll get in first ballot, not just because of his numbers, but the "other stuff" will help push him in. Just his numbers alone - no doubt HOF'er, but first ballot there is an argument against it (unlike with henderson in 09, ripken and gwynn in 07). The argument largely being the injuries over the last 8 seasons. But, an MVP and 5 other top 10 finishes is pretty darn convincing. And he did quite a bit in 07 and 08 (according to WAR, his two best seasons) despite the injuries.

[tiger8mush]

I think he's a HOFer. But if ballot # sorta ranks where you stand amongst your HOF peers, I'd put him in the 2nd tier, so 2nd ballot.

His "Wins Above Replacement" for positional players was in the top 10 only 5 times in his 18 year career (highest finish 3rd). By comparison, Pujols was #1 6 years in a row. Thats first ballot. Bonds was #1 eleven times in WAR for positional players. Schmidt and Morgan, 4 times they were #1. Those guys are first ballot HOFers. Mays, Hornsby, Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Ted Williams, Lajoie were all #1 AT LEAST 5 times each. A dozen or so others were #1 multiple times. Chipper was never #1, nor #2 in his own league.

Not first ballot (maybe to poor defense), but easily has enough career achievement to make him a certain HOFer, probably 2nd ballot.

Just my opinion :)
Rob

[Jlighter]

The whole first half of his career he missed between 2 and 10 games per season. I do call that injury free.

So I guess that strike shortened 1994 season doesn't count? When he didn't play a game.

[Jlighter]

Also he is top 50 all time in WAR, just sayin.

[Touch'EmAll]

Was he a dominant power hitter leading the league many a season?

Was he a dominant Batting Average hitter leading the league many a season?

Was he a dominant fielder leading the league in fielding stats many a season?

Was he a dominant runner leading the league in steals many a season?

Was he a perennial All-Star appearing on 15 +/- All star teams as a starter?

I always thought, in my humble opinion, that a player needs to be dominant to merit first ballot.

A very solid, good player with leadership skills - YES! Like I said before, he can play on my team anytime. But back to the question if he is a FIRST ballot HOF'er, jeesh.

[Chris Counts]

Yes, Chipper is a first ballot Hall of Famer as a THIRD BASEMAN. And no, you can't compare him to outfielders and first basemen. If you think that's a valid comparison, try fielding a team without a real shortstop, third baseman or catcher. Your team won't get very far.

By the way, there are half as many third baseman in the HOF than any other position. That proves the voters have know idea what a Hall of Fame third baseman looks like.

Based on his stats, Chipper is clearly a Top 5 all-time third baseman. How many third basemen can you name with a .300 career batting average. 400 career home runs, an MVP award, a batting title and a World Series championship?

[glchen]

In my opinion, I don't think Chipper is a first ballot HOFer. To me, a first ballot HOFer would mean that you are in the "inner" circle in the Hall of Fame. That is, you absolutely dominated the game. I don't think Chipper meets that critieria. In the modern era, it would be players like Jeter, Rivera, Pujols, Randy Johnson, and perhaps Pedro Martinez. I think Chipper is a good player who eventually deserves to get into the Hall, but not on the first ballot.

[CMIZ5290]

I think there has been some very good feedback, but another reason why i think he is in on first ballot is how well he is liked by the overall media. He is never a smart ass, and he is normally quick and cordial about giving interviews and answering questions. I know this has nothing to do about his numbers, but trust me when i say it will be a big factor. So many of these pro athletes are complete jerks, and give no respect to the fans and media.....

[drc]

My guess is he won't be a first balloter (which is one thing) and don't think he's first ballot worthy (which is another thing).

As time passes, being first or fifth year HOFer makes little to no difference. No one claims that Robin Yount is better than Joe DiMaggio. In the moment drama and scandal over who is first ballot and who isn't is manufactured ESPN crap. If you see an all-time team of players who weren't elected in the first ballot, you'd see how silly is the first ballot drama. DiMaggio, Anson, Foxx, Alexander could kick some some Tony Gwynn, Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan first ballot ass.

[Robextend]

It is almost impossible to compare to the criteria of "first ballot" regarding players from different generations...voting committees and the way they vote have changed. We can't keep comparing different eras without taking this into account.

Chipper was the dominant consistent force at 3B in his league for well over a decade putting up phenominal stats along the way and also keeping his name clean in a dirty era. First ballot all the way!

[alanu]

I think staying with one team will carry a lot of weight with his vote in this day and age.

[BradH]

Maybe I’ve missed it, but I’m surprised no one has commented on Chipper as a switch hitter. He’ll end as one of the top 3 or 4 all time, and this is what sets him apart to me. His ranks among all-time switch hitters:

Average:
.304 – 2nd behind Frankie Frisch (Chipper ranks ahead of Rose, Mantle, Alomar, Murray, Schoendienst)

Home Runs:
468 – 3rd behind only Mantle and Murray

RBIs:
1,619 – 2nd behind Murray

Yes, the great and honest relationship with the media and staying with one team his whole career will help him, but his numbers as a switch hitter are what I hear as the number one reason among writers as to why they’ll vote for him in the first year.

A fun “Did you know” stat that has nothing to do with switch hitters: Chipper and Albert Pujols are the only two active players with at least 450 career home runs and who still have more career walks than strikeouts.


Was he a dominant runner leading the league in steals many a season?

100backstroke- Please don’t think this is a shot at your comment, because it isn’t, but your comment did remind me of something. I know you were referring to base stealing and I believe Chipper only had a couple 20-steal seasons, so he certainly wasn’t a league leader in that regard. However, Chipper has long been regarded as perhaps one of the best “base runners” in the National League. He was called “the best and smartest base runner I ever had” by Bobby Cox and others such as Tony LaRussa and Jim Leyland have offered similar sentiment over the years.

A quick story … I remember a game a few years ago when Chipper was at first base with two outs and on a hit to right field he stopped at second. Some questioned why he didn’t go ahead and take third on the play. The next batter got a hit and Chipper scored. Later in the game, with one out, he went from first to third on a hit to LEFT FIELD. The next batter hit a sac fly and the Braves beat the Cardinals by one run. After the game, Cards manager Tony La Russa said Chipper’s base running had made all the difference in the game. A young player would have likely done things in reverse of what Chipper did, but he was smart and knew when to take third and when not to.

I know guys don’t get in the Hall based on their base running, but in this little part of baseball that is usually overlooked, he’s clearly considered one of the best by those who play and manage against him.

[howard38]

,

[Chris Counts]

Can somebody please explain to me what the criteria of a "first ballot" Hall of Famer is? Is this criteria any different from that of a "second ballot" Hall of Famer? And where exactly is this criteria written down?

It's my theory that all this nonsense about first ballot vs. second ballot-and-beyond is nothing but the invention of the voters, who just happen to be sports writers looking for something controversial to write or talk about — and some reason to place more importance on their roles in the process.

[Jlighter]

I believe the difference is that, if it's a first time player on the ballot, does he deserve to be voted ahead of players who while deserving have been waiting a few years. You also have to consider the players competition during the voting period. instead of just saying he's a first ballot

[HRBAKER]

Can somebody please explain to me what the criteria of a "first ballot" Hall of Famer is? Is this criteria any different from that of a "second ballot" Hall of Famer? And where exactly is this criteria written down?

It's my theory that all this nonsense about first ballot vs. second ballot-and-beyond is nothing but the invention of the voters, who just happen to be sports writers looking for something controversial to write or talk about — and some reason to place more importance on their roles in the process.


I agree, it's almost as crazy as arguing about what a "rookie" card is.
It's a purely artificial hobby or media construct that gives people something to talk about.

[chaddurbin]

I agree, it's almost as crazy as arguing about what a "rookie" card is.
It's a purely artificial hobby or media construct that gives people something to talk about.

sorry jeff, chipper's rc card is the 1991 ud and one of my favorite cards growing up...it's no myth!

imo chipper's a borderline 1st ballot. if he would've stayed at ss his whole career it would've been a slam-dunk no-contest no brainer. he's played mostly 3b and corner positions are expected to put up power numbers because it's not a primo up the middle pos. some pros i see he's been clean throughout this ped era and put up strong numbers (that goes a long way to the anti arod/bonds hof voters), and he's having a banner last year going out on top which will stick in voters' mind 5 years down the line. if he was struggling and washed up no way he would've had a shot at 1st ballot.

it's crazy to think chipper prolly got a better shot at 1st ballot than bonds???

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo147/quannimir/cards/chip91.jpg

[CMIZ5290]

Maybe not, i must admit. His error on a simple play in the 4th inning completely turned a 2-0 braves lead completely around when medlin was in complete control. Unfortunatley, people are going to remember that play that completely turned a game in which the braves were in solid control. I love chipper and the braves, but holy cow man, please put me out of my misery!! Year after year i have to go thru this shit!

[HRBAKER]

Maybe not, i must admit. His error on a simple play in the 4th inning completely turned a 2-0 braves lead completely around when medlin was in complete control. Unfortunatley, people are going to remember that play that completely turned a game in which the braves were in solid control. I love chipper and the braves, but holy cow man, please put me out of my misery!! Year after year i have to go thru this shit!

Yeah, being a Braves fan is like being a Cubs fan with the a strong tease factor thrown in!

[jp1216]

Chipper will be an easy in. First ballot - probably a 75% chance. One team helped. Thanks to the prior posts about Maris. Let's hope he will get in - in time...

[toppcat]

As a Mets fan I hate the guy but he is first ballot without a doubt.

[jjcollects]

yes!

[EvilKing00]

100%, comming from a met fan here too. The guy is an all time great no doubt