Are Any of These Cardboard Signs Legimate? Help, Please

[Joe Hunter]

Do any of these cardboard signs appear to be period pieces? The Ruth is 12" tall, the Williams is 12.5", and the Gehrig is 7"x9". The Gehrig is stiff cardboard, while the other two, are somewhat flexible. Your opiniom would be appreciated.

[Leon]

Top one is really bad. No way....The middle one is a little better but still probably not good...and lastly, the bottom one.....almost always where there are 2 reprints of 3 signs, you can almost bet the 3rd one isn't good either. Just my experiences and initial thoughts.

[HRBAKER]

They all share that "really washed out" look that most fakes have IMO.

[ctownboy]

Are these at an auction or flea market in Indiana or Ohio?

David

Edited to add, looking at eBay, there have been three Ted Williams signs like the one you posted that have been from Maine. No other easel back signs like the one you posted has been on eBay recently. If the one you posted is from Maine then I would imagine there is somebody up there reproducing them.

[Joe Hunter]

They were at a flea market in KCMO. Most of the other signs he had appeared to be good, but were not baseball. I was told they were obtained in KY.

[ctownboy]

Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky are hot beds for FAKE stuff.

So, ask yourself;

1) WHY would a guy at a flea market have signs like these?

2) WHY would they be of Hall of Fame players?

3) WHY would a guy in Kentucky have these signs and give them up?

If they are real then somebody somewhere should have done some investigating along the way to see how much they are worth.

Being from Indiana, I have been to a LOT of flea markets and have even set up at a few. From my experience, there are some REAL shady characters who set up at flea markets. After seeing these types, I STOPPED setting up there and just paid a little more to set up at card shows (when there were still card shows at hotels on the weekend).

David

[HRBAKER]

Good move, there's certainly no shady characters at card shows.

Just kidding, kind of.

;);)

[ctownboy]

Jeff,

My experiences were back in the late 1980's and early 1990's. There were shady characters at the card shows but nothing NEAR like the ones at the flea markets.

Of course now, the card shows have all but disappeared and the SHADY characters at the flea markets have gone high tech and are peddling their wares to unsuspecting people on Craigslist and eBay.

David

[barrysloate]

They're all bad. 99+% of the early baseball signs you find at flea markets or small antique shows are reproductions.

[Joe Hunter]

Thanks for all the good comments concerning the signs. I went back to the flea market today and broke the news to the dealer that all of his baseball signs were reproductions (there were two others that I didn't take pictures of, and one that he had already sold). I explained to him many of the points you guys made. He took it pretty well, but I could tell he was disappointed. I think he had paid some pretty good money for them and I am convinced he thought they were real. I did not stick around to see if he pulled the items or left them on his table. I was pretty sure the Ruth Fro Joy was a repro from the beginning, but the other two I was not sure of. Again, thanks for all the great comments.

[murphusa]

at the repro warehouses in PA you can buy them for about $3 each

as soon as a real one gets auctioned off and there is a nice photo of one in an auction catalog they will soon be out there

[ctownboy]

Knowing flea market people who sell fake and reproduction items, I imagine the disappointment was NOT from finding out the items were fake (I bet he already knew that) but was disappointed he didn't sucker you into buying these pieces.

You were interested enough to take the time to look at them, ask about them, take pictures of them and then come back. I imagine when he saw you approaching his booth the next day, he had $$ signs in his eyes.

If I were you, I would go back and see if this guy STILL has the signs out for sale and at the same prices (I bet he still does). If so, then I would find the owner or manager of the flea market and complain to them.

If they don't do anything then I would know that this flea market is OK with harboring dealers who are out to fleece prospective buyers.

David

[Joe Hunter]

Well, your're probably right. Didn't have time to go back to his table, and the market ended early this afternoon. As far as going to the manager, I considered that, but figured he would just say it is my word against his. After all, he is just out to sell spaces, and I doubt that he would know a fake from vintage piece, anyway. I think it is just one of the pitfalls of flea market picking.

[thebigtrain]

I see that Ted Williams hunk o' dung at a lot of NJ flea markets too, often with a price of $250. I was looking at one a couple weeks ago and the seller right off the bat offered to "come down" to $175 since I was wearing a NY Yankees hat lol.

All the Ted Williams "Moxies" are usually fake. This was a small soda company local to the New England market and Ted only signed a deal with them in 1957, yet a lot of them claim to be either pre-war or late 1940s. The chances that so many of these items survived to enter the collector market nearly 60 years later is absurd.

The Ruth Fro-Joy is a complete joke, and the Gerigh looks to have been printed on old paper and then stained with bacon grease and such to make it look old.

[ctownboy]

Joe,

What you do is copy this thread and then take it to the manager or owner the next time the flea market is open. If the dealer is there with the same pieces at the same prices, you show him the copy of this thread.

That way they BOTH know that YOU know his pieces are fake and worthless. If the dealer doesn't remove the pieces or reduce the prices and list them as repros then you know the dealer is not to be trusted.

If the owner or manager doesn't make sure the dealer removes the pieces or sees that he marks them as repros then you know THEY are also not to be trusted.

In the early 1990's, I was at a flea market and there was a guy who was selling boxes of football cards for less than what you would expect them to sell for. I had some stuff (nothing great) that I was looking to sell or trade and he was VERY interested. He looked at my stuff and offered me a couple of these unopened boxes of football cards in trade.

Now, these football cards weren't that great BUT they at least gave me a chance to possibly get a rookie or insert card or whatever that MIGHT be something valuable that I could sell. So, I made the trade.

I took the boxes home and started opening the packs. Lo and behold, there were NO star players (or rookies or inserts) in these packs. Also, some of the packs didn't have as many cards in them as they were supposed to.

When I looked closer at these "unopened" packs, I saw that there was glue at the areas where they were originally sealed. Also, they smelled like model glue. So, I knew right then and there that the guy had opened these packs, took the good cards out and was selling them individually and then was pawning off the boxes of "unopened" packs (which were full of nothing but commons) for whatever he could get.

Even though it was a long drive back to the flea market, I went back the next day. I confronted the dealer and told him what I knew and that I was going to give him his boxes back and that I wanted my cards that I had traded him.

He denied doing anything wrong and said that he didn't have the cards I traded him. So I made a HUGE scene. I was yelling that this guy ripped me off and that you could still see and smell the glue on the packs that I hadn't opened.

The manager of the flea market (with security) came over to see what was going on. I explained the situation to him and he asked the dealer if this was true. The dealer himmed and hawed around. So, with that, the manager told him to pack up his stuff and get out. He then apologized to me and told me that that guy was not going to be allowed back at his flea market.

I don't know if that happened because I never went back to that flea market. But, at least, I caused a scene and that dealer was exposed as a scam artist and was booted out that day and lost whatever sales he might have had.

David

[Joe Hunter]

I think I will do that. The next market isn't until November, but I will take the thread with me. If he still has the fakes on his table I will check with the manager and let him know what is going on. I had a similar experience several years ago at an antique show where a dealer was selling obviously reproduced posters. I informed the dealer of this and also told the manager. Went back a few hours later and the posters were still there and at the same price.

[murphusa]

you guys are starting to sound like the autograph guys.

Why do you care? If the seller was selling them at $25.00 each would it be better? Would you care then? Are you afraid that the seller was taking advantage of would be buyers because they did not have the knowledge to know the items were reproductions?

I was at a flea market today. A dealer I knew was looking at an older bat that is worth about $200.

The seller wanted $30.00 for it, but the dealer was trying to get him down to $20.00. (sold at $25.00)

He was doing the same. Take advantage of a person who did not know what the item was.

But we would cheer the dealer in this case because we would say he got a great deal, "way to go" "like" etc if he posted his buy here.

[ctownboy]

murphusa,

I think apples and oranges.

If a seller is selling something and they don't know what it is then it is their fault for losing money by not researching it.

On the other hand, when a seller puts out a repro piece and either doesn't know it is a repro or knows but doesn't say, there is an inherent feeling that the piece is real (especially if it has a high price on it).

People going to a flea market might see these three pieces and think the guy found them in an old house or something.

If an older person (like my Mother) saw these, she might spend some money buying one knowing that I love old baseball items. Now think how she would feel if she gave it to me and I told her that it was fake and she wasted her money? She wouldn't feel that great AND it might cause her to NOT buy something she sees the next time (which actually could be real).

No, I have a REAL problem with dealers who sell fake stuff NO MATTER WHAT PRICE THEY ARE ASKING FOR IT!!

David

[murphusa]

You should also know what you are buying

When was the last time your mother got you something at a flea market for $250

Sorry but most of the time that I see threads like these I think the poster has already made the purchase and they want us to tell them, great find.

[deebro041]

David and Jim, I understand where you are both coming from, and I can see value in what both you guys are saying. I would have to argue though Jim, how often can you educate yourself before you see an item you are not sure about? Going to a flea market or garage sale may only be a one day deal and it is impossible to foresee what you may encounter. One may not have time or access to research an item. Researching is possible for auctions when you preview it before the end.
I guess also the excitement of possibly finding something cool may consume one to want to purchase it before investigating.

[murphusa]

David and Jim, I understand where you are both coming from, and I can see value in what both you guys are saying. I would have to argue though Jim, how often can you educate yourself before you see an item you are not sure about? Going to a flea market or garage sale may only be a one day deal and it is impossible to foresee what you may encounter. One may not have time or access to research an item. Researching is possible for auctions when you preview it before the end.
I guess also the excitement of possibly finding something cool may consume one to want to purchase it before investigating.


My Last word on the subject, if you do not know what an item is, can't tell if it is a fake or have questions, don't buy, live for another day.

[Bocabirdman]

If you go to a pharmacy, you should entitled to reasonable expectation that the pills you get are real. If you withdraw cash from your bank, you should be able to believe it to not be bogus. If you buy baseball cards or memorabilia from a respected vendor or auction house, there should be that same expectation. If you find something at a flea market, looking for that bargain of bargains, you need to be schooled or you might get schooled:)

[Joe Hunter]

Jim: Just for your information, I did not purchase these signs. It was a two day flea market, so I had the luxury of taking the pictures, getting feedback from the forum and then returning the next day to inform the dealer his pieces were repros. In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons a forum of this nature exists in the first place. Unfortunately, I did learn that one other sign he had (Babe Ruth Pipe ad) had been purchased by someone earlier in the day. I don't think I would have bought them before doing some research. I've had great success picking up some nice items at flea markets, and really enjoy the chase. What I have found is that you will find many more sports items overpriced at these events than undervalued.