The Fake Ted Williams Nightmare

[TyrusRCobb]

So my first post here was asking for help authenticating a Williams autograph. Everyone was great in showing me all of the countless reasons why the ball was an absolute fake. I've returned the ball and the seller is now claiming that the ball was damaged in transit and as such is refusing to issue a refund. I've forwarded e-mails to ebay wherein he states that a refund would be issued once he received the ball. In my mind there is nothing stopping the seller from damaging the fake ball. Furthermore, can I be held responsible if USPS did indeed damage the ball? The purchase was through ebay and a case has been opened. I also provided theNet54 thread link wherein the ball was discussed to ebay. Do I stand a chance of being refunded? Has anyone been in this situation? Any advice for the newbie? As always, thank you all for your help.
Adam Phillips

[Big Dave]

Did you insure the ball for the return trip? If not, the USPS will not be able to help you in that regard. How did you package it? More then likely it is a false claim by the seller, Put the seller's name in this thread so others will be warned about this person.

[TyrusRCobb]

Did you insure the ball for the return trip? If not, the USPS will not be able to help you in that regard. How did you package it? More then likely it is a false claim by the seller, Put the seller's name in this thread so others will be warned about this person.

Thanks Dave, the sellers ebay name is mkutz-2012. He goes by the name Mikey Kutz and he's based out of Florida. The ball is insured for 100.00. I placed the ball snugly in a padded USPS envelope. This envelope was then placed in a larger, padded USPS Express Mail envelope. Am I not protected under ebay's Buyer Protection Plan? He did not provide me with specific instructions regarding return shipping. If my research is correct, it is stated that the seller is required to explicitly state the method of return shipping to be used. No such statement existed.

[David Atkatz]

When returning an item you must have proof that it was delivered. In the future, only ship via a method that supplies tracking information.

[thecatspajamas]

Adam,
As long as you have proof that the ball was delivered back to the seller which can be checked online by eBay (i.e. a tracking number, where it shows "Delivered" as the last statement), and have provided that tracking number to eBay, you will eventually get your money back. Ebay won't care about the transcripts of the e-mails you have exchanged, the links go Net54 discussions of the ball, or really any reasonable proof that the signature was fake. They side with the buyer in cases like these 99.9% of the time as long as the buyer gets the item back to the seller and can show that it was delivered with that tracking number verifiable online.

That's not to say that it is a quick process, or that the seller will be happy with the result (he'll wind up eating the initial shipping costs too, but not return shipping). Just keep a cool head and ride it out.

If he wants to talk damages as far as the return shipping is concerned, and you insured it with USPS, work that out after the eBay claim is done (can't recall if you would have to file or he would, but it may have required him to open the package in the presence of a postal worker to prove damage anyway. Been a long time since I've gone down that road, and I just don't recall). I don't think eBay will want to get in the middle of an insurance claim. And if you think eBay is slow on claims, just wait until you start in with the USPS...

[TyrusRCobb]

Adam,
As long as you have proof that the ball was delivered back to the seller which can be checked online by eBay (i.e. a tracking number, where it shows "Delivered" as the last statement), and have provided that tracking number to eBay, you will eventually get your money back. Ebay won't care about the transcripts of the e-mails you have exchanged, the links go Net54 discussions of the ball, or really any reasonable proof that the signature was fake. They side with the buyer in cases like these 99.9% of the time as long as the buyer gets the item back to the seller and can show that it was delivered with that tracking number verifiable online.

That's not to say that it is a quick process, or that the seller will be happy with the result (he'll wind up eating the initial shipping costs too, but not return shipping). Just keep a cool head and ride it out.

If he wants to talk damages as far as the return shipping is concerned, and you insured it with USPS, work that out after the eBay claim is done (can't recall if you would have to file or he would, but it may have required him to open the package in the presence of a postal worker to prove damage anyway. Been a long time since I've gone down that road, and I just don't recall). I don't think eBay will want to get in the middle of an insurance claim. And if you think eBay is slow on claims, just wait until you start in with the USPS...

Ebay said that the issue would be resolved in 72hrs. If I am indeed going to be given a refund is it the case that the refund will be slow in coming? That would not be cool as I could use those funds to purchase other balls!

[Deertick]

In the past when I have had issues, whenever eBay makes a determination, I was refunded within 3 days.

[thecatspajamas]

Sorry, on the long, slow process I was thinking more of the various claims I've dealt with in the past, typically involving packages that were actually lost or delayed. I think you are correct in that, if you show definite proof (online tracking) that the package was delivered back to him, the decision (and refund) is much quicker.

The other stuff I said about them siding with the buyer 99.9% of the time and the tracking showing "delivered" being about the only "proof" they will look at is still accurate, from my experience.

For what it's worth, I've been on the seller's side of these complaints much more often than the buyer's, and from my experience, if the buyer complains about anything that cannot be disproven with tracking information, the buyer WILL get their money back. In my experience, whether it's a valid or believable claim has very little bearing on eBay's decision if the complaint is from the buyer.

[TyrusRCobb]

Sorry, on the long, slow process I was thinking more of the various claims I've dealt with in the past, typically involving packages that were actually lost or delayed. I think you are correct in that, if you show definite proof (online tracking) that the package was delivered back to him, the decision (and refund) is much quicker.

The other stuff I said about them siding with the buyer 99.9% of the time and the tracking showing "delivered" being about the only "proof" they will look at is still accurate, from my experience.

For what it's worth, I've been on the seller's side of these complaints much more often than the buyer's, and from my experience, if the buyer complains about anything that cannot be disproven with tracking information, the buyer WILL get their money back. In my experience, whether it's a valid or believable claim has very little bearing on eBay's decision if the complaint is from the buyer.
Thanks for the response. The deeper I read into many of the threads the more I understand the seller's frustration regarding refunds. I would hate to think that, as a seller, there would be very little I could do in challenging a buyer who simply doesn't like the item they purchased and desires a refund. However, it is nice to know (assuming the outcome will be in my favor) that eBay will refund an item that is shown to be a forgery. From here on out I'm going to be far more diligent in researching not only the ball under consideration but the seller as well. I'm going to seek opinions about authenticity [I]before[I]I make a purchase and not after! Again, thanks for the response.

[JimStinson]

As a new collector welcome, I've posted this before but there is a very simple formula to avoid these kinds of mistakes when it comes to autographs. As in any occupation there are people that are good at what they do , some are bad at what they do and some just don't give a damn.
So in "the information age" and especially with forums like this one, ASK questions !
There are plenty of GOOD autograph sellers to go around. So take a pen and a piece of paper and ask around for the names of ...oh Ten reputable autograph sellers, make 10 lists, then find the FIVE names that overlap the most from those lists and just deal with them, How tough is that ?????
Between the five names you end up with they will ALWAYS have more stuff to sell you than you have money to spend. Unless your last name happens to be Trump or Gates, then you can expand the list to maybe 10.
________________________
Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

[TyrusRCobb]

As a new collector welcome, I've posted this before but there is a very simple formula to avoid these kinds of mistakes when it comes to autographs. As in any occupation there are people that are good at what they do , some are bad at what they do and some just don't give a damn.
So in "the information age" and especially with forums like this one, ASK questions !
There are plenty of GOOD autograph sellers to go around. So take a pen and a piece of paper and ask around for the names of ...oh Ten reputable autograph sellers, make 10 lists, then find the FIVE names that overlap the most from those lists and just deal with them, How tough is that ?????
Between the five names you end up with they will ALWAYS have more stuff to sell you than you have money to spend. Unless your last name happens to be Trump or Gates, then you can expand the list to maybe 10.
________________________
Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

Great advice Mr. Stinson! It's greatly appreciated.

[Lordstan]

Very well said Jim!!

[JimStinson]

Its not rocket science ...the GOOD dealers have been around for 20 years or so for A REASON !!!!! its because they do a good job and know their stuff. It is when a collector armed with what my late father used to call "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" that they get burned. And then say What happened ??? What happened is that you did not stay close to the "herd" you went off into the wilderness thinking that you KNEW it ALL. You got too cocky too quick. So share the blame.
Bogus dealers and legit authenticators have become RICH because of this. Some millionaires .............why ?
Let me put it real simple ...If one of the best mechanics in the world just overhauled your transmission on your car, THE BEST , A MASTER AUTO MACHANIC WITH 30 YEARS EXPERIENCE would you then pay $150.00 to some 25 year old kid that works under an oak tree in his yard to double check the other mechanics work ?????

[Deertick]

As a new collector welcome, I've posted this before but there is a very simple formula to avoid these kinds of mistakes when it comes to autographs. As in any occupation there are people that are good at what they do , some are bad at what they do and some just don't give a damn.
So in "the information age" and especially with forums like this one, ASK questions !
There are plenty of GOOD autograph sellers to go around. So take a pen and a piece of paper and ask around for the names of ...oh Ten reputable autograph sellers, make 10 lists, then find the FIVE names that overlap the most from those lists and just deal with them, How tough is that ?????
Between the five names you end up with they will ALWAYS have more stuff to sell you than you have money to spend. Unless your last name happens to be Trump or Gates, then you can expand the list to maybe 10.
________________________
Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

Jim just says this because his name is pre-printed on all the lists! ;)

[JimStinson]

What the HECK does that mean ????:confused:

[TyrusRCobb]

Its not rocket science ...the GOOD dealers have been around for 20 years or so for A REASON !!!!! its because they do a good job and know their stuff. It is when a collector armed with what my late father used to call "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" that they get burned. And then say What happened ??? What happened is that you did not stay close to the "herd" you went off into the wilderness thinking that you KNEW it ALL. You got too cocky too quick. So share the blame.
Bogus dealers and legit authenticators have become RICH because of this. Some millionaires .............why ?
Let me put it real simple ...If one of the best mechanics in the world just overhauled your transmission on your car, THE BEST , A MASTER AUTO MACHANIC WITH 30 YEARS EXPERIENCE would you then pay $150.00 to some 25 year old kid that works under an oak tree in his yard to double check the other mechanics work ?????
Point taken Jim. As my quote states I know that I know nothing. I've never taken the stance that I "KNEW IT ALL." Quite the opposite. I'm doing my best to locate "the herd." I completely "share the blame." The seller posted the fake which I purchased. As my quote further states, I'm learning. Again, as always, thanks for the advice.
Adam

[JimStinson]

Oh...OK Sorry I get it now...I'm slow (smile), yes my name will be on all the lists I agree , but thats not because I paid anyone to do it or had a multi-million dollar ad campaign to sell the "sizzle and not the steak" its because I busted my arse over half my life to do the right thing. Even when my plane was flying WAY CLOSE TO THE GROUND I never compromised , it IS what it IS and WAS what it was .....So like Rosenanne Rosa Anna Danna used to say.....NEVERMIND

[Deertick]

Oh...OK Sorry I get it now...I'm slow (smile), yes my name will be on all the lists I agree , but thats not because I paid anyone to do it or had a multi-million dollar ad campaign to sell the "sizzle and not the steak" its because I busted my arse over half my life to do the right thing. Even when my plane was flying WAY CLOSE TO THE GROUND I never compromised , it IS what it IS and WAS what it was .....So like Rosenanne Rosa Anna Danna used to say.....NEVERMIND

I notice that you haven't explicity denied that you have subversively pre-printed your name on these "lists". :D

[JimStinson]

Yes I have with the help of "THE AMAZING KESKIN" :)

[mr2686]

The reason why Jim's name is pre-printed on the list is because it takes up spots 1-5. As a wise bar keep once replied..."Nuff Ced".

[RichardSimon]

What a suck up party :D:D:D.
They are all angling for discounts :D.
But all kidding aside when people ask me for my list of dealers I recommend Jim is always the first guy I recommend.

[travrosty]

But they say that having the kid check the work is good for the hobby.

That the experienced dealers and collectors need to go along with the system in order for the kid to catch all the bad work that is out there.

The experienced guys just have to put up with a little inconvenience for the sake of all autographs, and if the experienced guy isn't doing anything wrong, then they have nothing to worry about, that their autographs will obviously pass anyway.

So refusing to let the kid check the work or refusing to guarantee all your items will pass psa or jsa when you sell is tantamount to admitting your autographs aren't up to snuff or that you have 'something to hide.'

Guilty until proven innocent. That's a cool system, isn't it guys?

Of course it's a cock and bull story, foisted on the public to get them to pressure everybody to send in their autographs to the kid under the oak tree. Resistance is futile.

From PSA's website. this is under the header "New to collecting" They want to indoctrinate you from the get-go. To get into a mindset that the only people that know autographs is PSA/DNA.

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Enhance Your Credibility

When it comes to collectibles, a seller's reputation is of paramount importance. Those with the best reputations have their collectibles graded and/or authenticated by PSA. If you are known as a seller who does not, your credibility may suffer. Buyers will ask questions and speculate as to your reasons why.

----------------------------

This is truly sickening and evil to paint with a broad brush like that and put long time dealers and collectors who know what they are doing under suspicion because PSA/DNA has money to make.

[TyrusRCobb]

Gentlemen, I've been given a refund on my moronic Williams purchase. I'd like to sincerely thank all who offered their advice. Now, with my refund, I think I'll check out the Buy/Sell/Trade section. Before I do, are there suspect sellers there as well that I should be aware of or are they the same good people I've found here?

[scmavl]

In my experience, the rare times that something fake is being sold in the BST, it is called out by some of the knowledgeable members here.