Seemingly enhanced/altered Harry Truman signed baseball featured on haulsofshame.com

[travrosty]

Anyone have an opinion on how one poor quality and one very high quality truman signed baseball, that went through two different auctions a few months apart can look one way at one auction, and presto chango, now it is a pristine Truman signed ball when it was once a poor quality signature?

How can this happen? Isn't this the type of stuff the hobby should be investigating, or because it has a certain groups name on it, we shall give it a pass?

november 2004, low grade signature, coa john reznikoff psa/dna and rr auction coa.

Feb. 2005, now it's at EAC Gallery, with "Provenance" John Reznikoff.

Isn't this something the hobby watchdogs should dig into and figure out how this can happen to our beloved autograph collecting hobby? Even if it is to clear the authenticators name or auction house of any wrongdoing, especially to do that if they didn't have anything to do with it? And to find out just who did have something to do with it?

What's the authenticators role in this? Was it a fake letter of provenance foisted upon the public without the authenticators knowledge, or did the authenticator give a coa to the "before" ball, and also a letter of provenance to the "after" ball? Let's find out what happened.

Are some things off limits? This is a huge deal, and something tells me if it were up on ebay with Mew Drax coa people would be all over it like jackals?

Where's the emails sent, the rhetorical questions from the hotseat with flashlight shining in eyes, the dragnet interrogation?

Oh, that's right, it's the guys with the free pass so forget it. The person who paid good money and ended up with this gem doesn't deserve our help? I think he does.

[drc]

I think when an autograph comes with a LOA from Company X, EAC calls that the provenance. Just their idiosyncratic way of describing things. At EAC, "PSA provenance" means it has a PSA LOA-- usually nothing more.

I would guess the first auction's COA is the "provenance" in the second auction, and there is no second Reznikoff document. Just my guess.

[travrosty]

It does not seem they would be able to enclose the first coa to the winning bidder on the eac auction because it shows the original faded signature on the ball. plus eac could see for themselves it is not the same faded signature, but a bold one now so how could they auction it off? to me, they didn't have the original coa unless someone took the original coa and changed out photos.

[jgmp123]

It does not seem they would be able to enclose the first coa to the winning bidder on the eac auction because it shows the original faded signature on the ball. plus eac could see for themselves it is not the same faded signature, but a bold one now so how could they auction it off? to me, they didn't have the original coa unless someone took the original coa and changed out photos.

Sounds like a good question for Larry Rosenbaum...the biggest question here is how did the auction companies sell with the COA's showing different pictures and was the previous COA's even sent to the buyer?

[prewarsports]

Seriously, who would take a vintage piece of history like that and have the BALLS to even attempt to trace over it? I understand the money, but it seems like such a risky move. Clearly the same ball. I would think "tracing" back the chain of title on something like this could be very easily done and the culprit could be found.

[jgmp123]

Seriously, who would take a vintage piece of history like that and have the BALLS to even attempt to trace over it? I understand the money, but it seems like such a risky move. Clearly the same ball. I would think "tracing" back the chain of title on something like this could be very easily done and the culprit could be found.

But if everyone's pockets are getting bigger, why make the effort...:(

[thetruthisoutthere]

Travis wrote "Isn't this something the hobby watchdogs should dig into and figure out how this can happen to our beloved autograph collecting hobby? Even if it is to clear the authenticators name or auction house of any wrongdoing, especially to do that if they didn't have anything to do with it? And to find out just who did have something to do with it?"

You're already doing it, Travis, so what's your beef?

[drc]

I didn't know what the first COA looked like and just assumed it was one of those pictureless auction house PSA loas.

[jgmp123]

I just had a great conversation with Larry Rosenbaum at EAC Gallery and here is what he said...
Anytime they list an item that has been professionally restored, they mention that in the listing....He said that he is not sure why this particular listing omitted that and that the buyer was contacted and a credit/refund was issued because obviously it wouldn't have sold for that amount if it had stated "restored".

He also stated that there specialty is historic documents, not sports and that they bring in an authenticator like PSA or JSA to tell handle the authenticity of the item....

As far as the "provenance" or previous LOA for the item, he did not have any info on that as, he stated, it happened almost 7 years ago.

[thecatspajamas]

Anyone have an opinion on how one poor quality and one very high quality truman signed baseball, that went through two different auctions a few months apart can look one way at one auction, and presto chango, now it is a pristine Truman signed ball when it was once a poor quality signature?

Clearly, something shady going on.

How can this happen? Isn't this the type of stuff the hobby should be investigating, or because it has a certain groups name on it, we shall give it a pass?

Um, I believe it HAS been investigated, as the article quotes from the book "Collecting Signatures of the Presidents of the United States on Baseballs" in which this fraud was pointed out. Doesn't sound like a pass to me.

november 2004, low grade signature, coa john reznikoff psa/dna and rr auction coa.

Feb. 2005, now it's at EAC Gallery, with "Provenance" John Reznikoff.

David explained the wording of EAC Gallery's write-ups and their use of the term "provenance." The R&R Auction write-up reads:

"Official Reach American League (William Harridge) baseball signed in fountain pen on a side panel, 'Harry S. Truman, 4-12-56.' In good condition, with several strokes of signature light, but legible, date a bit harder to see, a light shade of toning to ball and a small application of shellac over signature. COA John Reznikoff/PSA/DNA and RRAuction COA."

http://rrauction.com/past_auction_item.cfm?ID=3091931

It does not state whether it is a full-photo LOA or not, so without seeing the original "pre-enhancement" LOA, we don't know if it could have been passed along with the ball "post-enhancement" or not.

Isn't this something the hobby watchdogs should dig into and figure out how this can happen to our beloved autograph collecting hobby? Even if it is to clear the authenticators name or auction house of any wrongdoing, especially to do that if they didn't have anything to do with it? And to find out just who did have something to do with it?

What's the authenticators role in this? Was it a fake letter of provenance foisted upon the public without the authenticators knowledge, or did the authenticator give a coa to the "before" ball, and also a letter of provenance to the "after" ball? Let's find out what happened.

Again, referring to David's comment on EAC's typical use of the word "provenance," I think the situation is far more easily explained by this take on the situation: The ball was examined and an LOA issued for it when it came to R&R in 2004. I don't know if that was a full-photo LOA, or one which described but did not picture the actual ball. As it appears that the letter continued on with the ball when it came to EAC in 2005, I would assume the latter. It's clear from the photos shown that the signature was somehow "enhanced," whether by physical or chemical processes applied to the ball itself, or by enhancing the digital photo of the ball.

Are some things off limits? This is a huge deal, and something tells me if it were up on ebay with Mew Drax coa people would be all over it like jackals?

Where's the emails sent, the rhetorical questions from the hotseat with flashlight shining in eyes, the dragnet interrogation

Oh, that's right, it's the guys with the free pass so forget it. The person who paid good money and ended up with this gem doesn't deserve our help? I think he does.

Nobody said anything about free passes or whether the buyer deserves help. You consistently make comments like this in your opening post, before anyone even has a chance to make the arguments that you are defending against. If you had been shouting about this for the last 7 years and nobody said anything in response, then you would have a point in screaming "cover-up."

I think the thing to remember is that there are a LOT of auctions with a LOT of signed items in them every year, and tons of items being flipped between them. Thousands and thousands of signatures at all different price levels. There is a reasonable expectation that SOME "enhancements" like this will be caught by someone whose memory is triggered when they see it the second time, but to imply that EVERY such enhancement is spied at the time it is reintroduced to the market and somehow allowed to pass based on the authenticator is a bit far-fetched, don't you think? To me, it screams more of massive "didn't notice" than of massive "cover-up."

Frankly, I find it a bit insulting for you to imply that autograph enthusiasts as a whole just "gave a pass" on something like this, when you yourself didn't mention it either for 7 years, and only brought it up after it appeared in a haulsofshame article.

Besides, you didn't use the term "sacred cow" once in your post, so how do we know it's really you posting this? Now THERE'S a conspiracy theory I'd like to explore ;)

[drc]

If the PSA LOA (some might call it 'provenance') is just the one LOA from the first sale (and that was reused for the second sale), it would appear PSA did nothing errant. All the restoration and resale would have happened after the fact. And there's no evidence PSA issued a second LOA. In fact, my guess is they didn't.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Besides, you didn't use the term "sacred cow" once in your post, so how do we know it's really you posting this? Now THERE'S a conspiracy theory I'd like to explore ;)

Lance, that was funny.

[TyrusRCobb]

If the PSA LOA (some might call it 'provenance') is just the one LOA from the first sale (and that was reused for the second sale), it would appear PSA did nothing errant. All the restoration and resale would have happened after the fact. And there's no evidence PSA issued a second LOA. In fact, my guess is they didn't.

Again, excuse my ignorance which apparently runs very deep in regards to collecting, are there issues with PSA/DNA as well as JSA authentications?

[David Atkatz]

Again, excuse my ignorance which apparently runs very deep in regards to collecting, are there issues with PSA/DNA as well as JSA authentications?In a word, yes!

[Big Dave]

....are there issues with PSA/DNA as well as JSA authentications?

Quite a few, and new ones come to light every week. Do a search on here in regard to PSA/DNA and JSA and your eyes will be opened.

[toybulldog]

Again, excuse my ignorance which apparently runs very deep in regards to collecting, are there issues with PSA/DNA as well as JSA authentications?

I'd say. Here's a pair of multiple signed gloves in which both are allegedly signed by Rocky Marciano. I just got done going through 350 Marciano exemplars and can not come up with one that comes close to resembling these. Slow and child-like writing, atypical letter formations, the way the "ky" in "Rocky" changes direction and goes upward in both examples. My opinion and other boxing collectors opinions I've talked to have come to an easy and definitive "no" yet it is signed-off on by PSA/DNA, and in particular someone named Joe Orlando who is listed as "President" on their web site.

http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Rocky%20non%20authentic%2015e%20SR.jpghtt p://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Rocky%20non%20authentic%2016e%20SR.jpg
http://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Rocky%20non%20authentic%2015f%20SR.jpghtt p://www.fighttoys.com/Marciano,Rocky%20non%20authentic%2016f%20SR.jpg

As an insulted collector of vintage boxing autographs I'd like to invite Joe Orlando to come on here and show us the supporting evidence/exemplars for these two Rocky Marciano autographs. If he has no supporting evidence/exemplars for these two Marciano autographs what are we to assume? Does this company add false value to non-authentic items? At $1,700 with plenty of time remaining!

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

[travrosty]

Mark makes a salient point. I can't find any Marciano's that match that either, and I have studied boxing autographs for over 20 years, like he has.

it looks childish, with no control to the autograph that would put it close to what marciano has been known to sign. We see other gloves signed by Marciano and his glove signature matches very close to his paper signature. But here we have a crazy signature by Marciano.

I don't think they have a problem using the weighscale method of authenticating. which in my view means 51 probability versus 49 percent not, means it get approved. I have to have 100 percent or it would be at least a no opinion, because you have to back that signature up using exemplars and knowledge gained over the years, and they see a Marciano sig on a glove and figure it must be good, but show me another one like that.

but if its signed by joe orlando, he must be the boxing guy there, so his opinion has a lot of weight among the long time boxing collectors with 20, 30, 40 years experience. NOT! Among the old time collectors and dealers, these certs by psa and jsa are considered a joke, they really are. They don't know firpo. they don't know Sullivan, they dont know liston, they dont know Ali, they don't know Dempsey.

[travrosty]

I just had a great conversation with Larry Rosenbaum at EAC Gallery and here is what he said...
Anytime they list an item that has been professionally restored, they mention that in the listing....He said that he is not sure why this particular listing omitted that and that the buyer was contacted and a credit/refund was issued because obviously it wouldn't have sold for that amount if it had stated "restored".

He also stated that there specialty is historic documents, not sports and that they bring in an authenticator like PSA or JSA to tell handle the authenticity of the item....

As far as the "provenance" or previous LOA for the item, he did not have any info on that as, he stated, it happened almost 7 years ago.




there is no such thing as a restored autograph. because it happened 7 years ago is no excuse not to figure out what happened with the provenance.

if restored autographs in sports is acceptable, then there is a lot of "restored" autograph for sale all over the place, it's called no good.

a big question is how it was restored, does eac know how because it is scary to think how many more autographs out there are "restored" like that?

how can it be listed as the finest truman signed ball extant, if it isn't trumans signature, but "restored"

I am not buying that restored excuse. there is no such thing as a restored autograph. no fault of yours james, thanks for getting the explanation.

If eac knew it was "restored" they should have rejected the signed ball at the least and contacting authorities wouldn't have been out of the question. to say that they specialize in historical items is a cop out. Reznikoff knows darn well that "restored" sports autographs is something that doesn't exist. This stinks.

[David Atkatz]

there is no such thing as a restored autograph.Absolutely true.

[travrosty]

yep, when regular people try to restore an autograph by tracing over the very faint remnants, its called a trace over job, makes the auto totally worthless. when other people do it, it's now called "restored"?

[jgmp123]

there is no such thing as a restored autograph. because it happened 7 years ago is no excuse not to figure out what happened with the provenance.

if restored autographs in sports is acceptable, then there is a lot of "restored" autograph for sale all over the place, it's called no good.

a big question is how it was restored, does eac know how because it is scary to think how many more autographs out there are "restored" like that?

how can it be listed as the finest truman signed ball extant, if it isn't trumans signature, but "restored"

I am not buying that restored excuse. there is no such thing as a restored autograph. no fault of yours james, thanks for getting the explanation.

If eac knew it was "restored" they should have rejected the signed ball at the least and contacting authorities wouldn't have been out of the question. to say that they specialize in historical items is a cop out. Reznikoff knows darn well that "restored" sports autographs is something that doesn't exist. This stinks.

All great points. I simply called Larry to hear his side of the story...Travis, like I said in my PM to you, he washed is hands of the whole deal. :(

[Mr. Zipper]

If the PSA LOA (some might call it 'provenance') is just the one LOA from the first sale (and that was reused for the second sale), it would appear PSA did nothing errant. All the restoration and resale would have happened after the fact. And there's no evidence PSA issued a second LOA. In fact, my guess is they didn't.

Sorry, but this does not fit the narrative the OP wishes to convey.

I read the Hauls of Shame article. While rife with innuendo and unrelated red herrings purely meant to embarass, I didn't see a shred of evidence a new LOA was issued since the original.

Incidentally, I continue to see statements implying there will be indictments handed down (wishful thinking) to PSA/DNA in regard to the Mastro case. Do these people realize that the card grading component PSA, is not the same as the autograph authentication division PSA/DNA? Or do they realize that but just throw PSA/DNA into the article to muddy them up?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Sorry, but this does not fit the narrative the OP wishes to convey.

I read the Hauls of Shame article. While rife with innuendo and unrelated red herrings purely meant to embarass, I didn't see a shred of evidence a new LOA was issued since the original.

Incidentally, I continue to see statements implying there will be indictments handed down (wishful thinking) to PSA/DNA in regard to the Mastro case. Do these people realize that the card grading component PSA, is not the same as the autograph authentication division PSA/DNA? Or do they realize that but just throw PSA/DNA into the article to muddy them up?

Steve, you must have been reading my mind. You just saved me a lot of typing.

[David Atkatz]

Steve, is there any connection between Autograph Magazine (published by Steve Cyrkin), and Collectors Universe?

[TyrusRCobb]

....are there issues with PSA/DNA as well as JSA authentications?

Quite a few, and new ones come to light every week. Do a search on here in regard to PSA/DNA and JSA and your eyes will be opened.

So...as a new collector who knows next to nothing about legitimate vs non-legitimate signatures which authentication service can be trusted? MLB? Steiner? None?

[David Atkatz]

The third one on your list.

[thecatspajamas]

Adam,

I think as a new collector, you would be best served reading through older posts first to kind of come up to speed, and then ask questions to clarify or fill in the gaps. I know it's not the easiest thing to hear "do your homework first," and I don't mean that to be rude, but consider also that even in asking a question as simple as "who can I trust," without having any background info to frame the answer(s) offered, you really can't judge whether the response itself is trustworthy.

That's not to say that I think anyone here is lying to you or trying to mislead you, but particularly when you start talking Third Party Authenticators or Grading, you're likely to get twice as many answers as there are TPA's, every response you get is going to have a "history" behind it.

[travrosty]

All great points. I simply called Larry to hear his side of the story...Travis, like I said in my PM to you, he washed is hands of the whole deal. :(


they all do. the excuse that it was a long time ago doesn't wash with me either. thanks for talking to them, i appreciate it.

[travrosty]

Steve, is there any connection between Autograph Magazine (published by Steve Cyrkin), and Collectors Universe?



no one is home so i will answer.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs. He goes out of his way for no one to know this. no one is suppose to know. He wants people to think he is impartial, and in order to blog on autograph magazine live you have to follow the company line or you are out. Thus the PSA defenders who wants to keep their blogging card there and stay in his good graces.

Steve Z. was one of the biggest psa critics (read his old articles) until he had a road to Damascus conversion somehow. But PSA/DNA hasn't changed their stripes one bit along the way. Why are they the best thing since sliced bread now, but back then they were the object of his derision? I don't know.

http://www.pcgs.com/Articles/Detail/3740

http://clct.client.shareholder.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=892569-99-2910&CIK=1089143

page 57


http://zipper68.blogspot.com/2004/06/psadna-goof.html

http://zipper68.blogspot.com/2004/06/psadna-authenticates-autopen.html

http://www.richardsimonsports.com/barrons.htm

[TyrusRCobb]

Adam,

I think as a new collector, you would be best served reading through older posts first to kind of come up to speed, and then ask questions to clarify or fill in the gaps. I know it's not the easiest thing to hear "do your homework first," and I don't mean that to be rude, but consider also that even in asking a question as simple as "who can I trust," without having any background info to frame the answer(s) offered, you really can't judge whether the response itself is trustworthy.

That's not to say that I think anyone here is lying to you or trying to mislead you, but particularly when you start talking Third Party Authenticators or Grading, you're likely to get twice as many answers as there are TPA's, every response you get is going to have a "history" behind it.

I've been doing a great deal of reading through older posts since I joined and have already learned a great deal. I in no way take your suggestion to be rude. Quite the contrary, I find it to be sound advice. I'll continue reading the older threads in an attempt to answer some of my questions. Thanks for the response.

[David Atkatz]

Steve, is there any connection between Autograph Magazine (published by Steve Cyrkin), and Collectors Universe?

no one is home so i will answer.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs. He goes out of his way for no one to know this. no one is suppose to know. He wants people to think he is impartial, and in order to blog on autograph magazine live you have to follow the company line or you are out. Thus the PSA defenders who wants to keep their blogging card there and stay in his good graces.

Steve Z. was one of the biggest psa critics (read his old articles) until he had a road to Damascus conversion somehow. But PSA/DNA hasn't changed their stripes one bit along the way. Why are they the best thing since sliced bread now, but back then they were the object of his derision? I don't know.

Amazing! Thanks Travis! I had no real reason for asking except this: I could never figure out why those two guys will never utter a bad word about PSA. The only other thing the two seem to have in common is blogging for Cyrkin's Autograph Magazine Live. So I wondered if there could be a connection...

Ain't critical thinking wonderful?

[travrosty]

yes, and i give footnotes and examples so they can't say I am making stuff up. They hate that.


The truman ball, according to haulsofshame, was listed by eac galleries as pristine, and "finest example extant"

The meaning of the word pristine is:

original, pure, uncorrupted, untouched, unspoiled.

this is exactly the opposite of what it was.

obviously listing it as pristine was not a "mistake" by a few bumbling people who didnt know sports because they were primarily a historical auction house.


a harry truman signature IS a historical signature.

there is more to this story, there has to be. i find it hard to believe someone would clean up the ball, enhance it and then send it off to an auction house, and not do that to any other pieces. a one-off? unlikely.


but i have never seen any other balls or signatures offered at auction houses or anywhere else listed as "restored", so are they being foisted off on the general public as pristine, and finest examples? looks like a good case for the fbi.

there are a lot of people that want haulsofshame.com to go away. that site is digging too deep in areas that are deemed "off limits" by the old guard who want to keep their power, prestige, and money making abilities the same way they are now. they want the status quo.

Indicting Mastro was looking in the wrong area for these people. the 10 dollar mickey mantles is where we should look, not the petty offenses by this big company or that one. They are supposedly "cleaning up the hobby" so they are entitled to a few infractions if it makes the hobby safer for everyone? because without them, we would have the wild west. Well, guess what, we have the wild west WITH THEM!

We can't even keep up with just the boxing mistakes. It's incredibly unbelievable! Just think about basketball, football where there are no people who come forward and show just how they are handling those sports in the autograph arena. I have had people say, "well, i guess they need a little work on boxing, but they are good at the rest."

but if my specialty and mark's specialty was football instead, then they would just need work on football and they would be great at boxing I suppose.

well, we just happen to expose the sport that we know well. Other sports go unreported but would the results be different?

[earlywynnfan]

The third one on your list.

I would like to respectfully disagree with this statement. While nothing beats in-person autographs, MLB, Steiner, MAB, and TriStar holograms are as good as it gets. (Along with the old Sportsworld Collectibles who, to my knowledge, were some of the first with numbered holograms.) These are always from private or public signings, although watch Steiner because they sometimes sell vintage stuff; I can't speak for them much because I rarely buy from them.

Of course, this only helps with newer autos. Mantle, DiMag, and anyone before them pre-date the holograms, so if you want vintage, well, keep doing homework.


Ken

[TyrusRCobb]

I would like to respectfully disagree with this statement. While nothing beats in-person autographs, MLB, Steiner, MAB, and TriStar holograms are as good as it gets. (Along with the old Sportsworld Collectibles who, to my knowledge, were some of the first with numbered holograms.) These are always from private or public signings, although watch Steiner because they sometimes sell vintage stuff; I can't speak for them much because I rarely buy from them.

Of course, this only helps with newer autos. Mantle, DiMag, and anyone before them pre-date the holograms, so if you want vintage, well, keep doing homework.


Ken
Thanks for the input Ken. It's much appreciated.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Amazing! Thanks Travis! I had no real reason for asking except this: I could never figure out why those two guys will never utter a bad word about PSA. The only other thing the two seem to have in common is blogging for Cyrkin's Autograph Magazine Live. So I wondered if there could be a connection...

Ain't critical thinking wonderful?

If Atkatz is referring to Mr. Zipper and me as the "two guys" then, of course, I can only answer for myself.

You're right, Travis and Atkatz, I will not bash PSA. I've had the same agenda for over eight (8) years now and have never deviated from it. I have my own agenda, and despite the threats, and attempts at intimidation over the past eight years, I have continued without interruption. I would never allow anyone who threatens me or attempts to intimidate me, to stop me from doing what I do.

I have no reason to bash PSA. Why should I bash a company that gets it right well over 95% of the time? If Travis and Atkatz want to bash PSA, that's their right. Neither of you have been censored here, have you? You may have been criticized for your views and opinions, but haven't we all? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Getting back to PSA. Honest mistakes are made by human beings. I don't know of one honest authenticator who hasn't made an honest mistake. The mistakes may have been clerical or an honest authentication mistake.

If anyone on Net54 wants to criticize PSA that is their right. But at the same time, the same people who criticize PSA, also flock to PSA to get their items graded or authenticated to receive a higher premium when it comes time to sell.

Why don't we ask Travis why he never bashes Todd Mueller?

Travis, is it because "you have no reason" to bash Todd Mueller? If that's your reason, then I accept that, Travis. I have "no reason" to bash PSA. When "LoveTheMarlins" was exposing some of the forgeries on the now "Dead As Julius Caesar" old ANL site, no one heard a peep from Travis criticizing Todd Mueller. If those same items had been authenticated by PSA, Travis would have been all over it. As a matter of fact, Travis went out his way to defend Todd and the Willie Mays TTM wife-signed autograph that Todd had listed on his auction site as an "authentic Willie Mays signed card." And not a peep from Travis about the two (2) Phil Dorsey signed Roberto Clemente photos that Todd Mueller had listed as "authentic signed Roberto Clemente photograph" or that Walter Johnson signed garbage.

Travis, if you have "no reason" to bash Todd Mueller, then I accept that. But don't criticize me for not bashing PSA because I have "no reason" to also. I have had the same agenda for over eight years. You have your agenda and I have mine.


David once (or still does) owned a "1927 NY Yankees" signed baseball that was certed by JSA. He proudly posted photos of his JSA certed baseball and his own self-proclamation as a "Yankees vintage autograph expert." In addition, David announced his own "Quick Opinion" service on Net54 because of his self-proclaimed expertise on Yankees vintage autographs.

Then David discovered his JSA certed "1927 Yankees" signed baseball was a JF special. I knew it was a JF special when David sent me full-blown photos of this baseball. I am sure that David asked Jodi to confirm that his ball was not authentic. But then David starts ranting against JSA for his ball being bad, but as a self-proclaimed "Yankees vintage autograph expert," how is it that you (David) never discovered it was bad? I was well aware of JF team-signed baseballs, why weren't you? Instead of looking in the mirror, you blame JSA and start ranting against them.

Then David went out and purchased an authentic "1927 Yankees" team-signed baseball. He also informed us that he needed to sell some other items in order to finance his "new" baseball. And guess what. The items he listed on Ebay were either PSA or JSA authenticated. But wait, David, what about your rants against PSA and JSA? Why would you insert PSA/JSA in your title descriptions to promote the fact that they are PSA/JSA authenticated to sell your autographed baseballs, when from the other side of your mouth you're ripping both PSA and JSA?

Richard Simon and I are very good friends; we have opposing views when it comes to PSA. We always agreed to disagree. But we would never disparage each other to get our points across. I would hope that all of us can have that same respectful co-existence here.

The point I am making is that we can all co-exist on a peaceful level here on Net54 without the disparaging remarks, double-standards and hypocrisy.

[David Atkatz]

Instead of looking in the mirror, you blame JSA and start ranting against them.Chris, does this sound like a rant against JSA? (From thread http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=146088 (1927 Yankees team ball forgery), which I started. Find one post of mine in which I "rant" against JSA regarding this baseball--or one in which I don't take full responsibility for being fooled.

I have always been one to admit my mistakes. (I learned as a physics professor that a mistake is a "teachable moment.") One of the centerpieces of my vintage Yankee collection is, indeed, a forgery--one that fooled me, and James Spence as well. It sure is nice work, though. (Maybe I'll consign it to Coach's. ;) )

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/datkatz/1927yankeesball.jpg

[David Atkatz]

Once again, from the same thread. Sound like "a rant against JSA"?

First off, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass with the following, but am really curious to what other's think. What I'm wondering is this - On this thread I've read that the ball would not pass now because 3rd party authenticators have become aware and have learned from their previous mistake. On past threads over the last few months, 3rd party authenticators have been bashed for making constant stupid mistakes, obviously unable or unwilling to learn. So what do we think:
1. TPA's are pretty good but make mistakes like everyone else?
2. TPA's have become too big and too busy to give each individual item their due?
3. TPA's are becoming Morales types and blanket authenticating?
4. Are TPA's leaning more and more to passing items that they should be
giving "no opinion" to?

Any thoughts?

1, 2, and 4.
1) PSA and JSA are "pretty good." They are nowhere near as good, however, as they advertise themselves to be--but what product is? Everybody makes mistakes--it's part of being human. the problem, however, is that the TPAs would have us trust them implicitly, while at the same time indemnifying themselves against all liability and responsibility for their mistakes.
2) Often we see mistakes that just should not have been made. Pure carelessness is the most likely explanation.
4) We see far too many instances of items being passed when no--or too few--actual exemplars exist.

[travrosty]

If Atkatz is referring to Mr. Zipper and me as the "two guys" then, of course, I can only answer for myself.

You're right, Travis and Atkatz, I will not bash PSA. I've had the same agenda for over eight (8) years now and have never deviated from it. I have my own agenda, and despite the threats, and attempts at intimidation over the past eight years, I have continued without interruption. I would never allow anyone who threatens me or attempts to intimidate me, to stop me from doing what I do.

I have no reason to bash PSA. Why should I bash a company that gets it right well over 95% of the time? If Travis and Atkatz want to bash PSA, that's their right. Neither of you have been censored here, have you? You may have been criticized for your views and opinions, but haven't we all? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Getting back to PSA. Honest mistakes are made by human beings. I don't know of one honest authenticator who hasn't made an honest mistake. The mistakes may have been clerical or an honest authentication mistake.

If anyone on Net54 wants to criticize PSA that is their right. But at the same time, the same people who criticize PSA, also flock to PSA to get their items graded or authenticated to receive a higher premium when it comes time to sell.

Why don't we ask Travis why he never bashes Todd Mueller?

Travis, is it because "you have no reason" to bash Todd Mueller? If that's your reason, then I accept that, Travis. I have "no reason" to bash PSA. When "LoveTheMarlins" was exposing some of the forgeries on the now "Dead As Julius Caesar" old ANL site, no one heard a peep from Travis criticizing Todd Mueller. If those same items had been authenticated by PSA, Travis would have been all over it. As a matter of fact, Travis went out his way to defend Todd and the Willie Mays TTM wife-signed autograph that Todd had listed on his auction site as an "authentic Willie Mays signed card." And not a peep from Travis about the two (2) Phil Dorsey signed Roberto Clemente photos that Todd Mueller had listed as "authentic signed Roberto Clemente photograph" or that Walter Johnson signed garbage.

Travis, if you have "no reason" to bash Todd Mueller, then I accept that. But don't criticize me for not bashing PSA because I have "no reason" to also. I have had the same agenda for over eight years. You have your agenda and I have mine.


David once (or still does) owned a "1927 NY Yankees" signed baseball that was certed by JSA. He proudly posted photos of his JSA certed baseball and his own self-proclamation as a "Yankees vintage autograph expert." In addition, David announced his own "Quick Opinion" service on Net54 because of his self-proclaimed expertise on Yankees vintage autographs.

Then David discovered his JSA certed "1927 Yankees" signed baseball was a JF special. I knew it was a JF special when David sent me full-blown photos of this baseball. I am sure that David asked Jodi to confirm that his ball was not authentic. But then David starts ranting against JSA for his ball being bad, but as a self-proclaimed "Yankees vintage autograph expert," how is it that you (David) never discovered it was bad? I was well aware of JF team-signed baseballs, why weren't you? Instead of looking in the mirror, you blame JSA and start ranting against them.

Then David went out and purchased an authentic "1927 Yankees" team-signed baseball. He also informed us that he needed to sell some other items in order to finance his "new" baseball. And guess what. The items he listed on Ebay were either PSA or JSA authenticated. But wait, David, what about your rants against PSA and JSA? Why would you insert PSA/JSA in your title descriptions to promote the fact that they are PSA/JSA authenticated to sell your autographed baseballs, when from the other side of your mouth you're ripping both PSA and JSA?

Richard Simon and I are very good friends; we have opposing views when it comes to PSA. We always agreed to disagree. But we would never disparage each other to get our points across. I would hope that all of us can have that same respectful co-existence here.

The point I am making is that we can all co-exist on a peaceful level here on Net54 without the disparaging remarks, double-standards and hypocrisy.



firstly, quit lying about the willie mays signed card, you know it's not true. He is a dealer and not a third party authenticator and doesn't authenticate other peoples autographs for money.

secondly, i never mentioned you at all, you flatter yourself.

thirdly, get the company line right, it's only one mistake out of 1000 (.1%), or as John R. says, 1 out of 10,000 (.01%)

5% error rate stinks. and they are the worlds experts? Mueller challenged any authenticator to a contest, winner take all, he got no takers from the worlds experts. I could clean their clock on boxing, why are they the world's boxing experts again?

fourthly, many, many of their errors are not clerical or honest mistakes, they are the product of authenticating too fast, sending the wrong person to authenticate the wrong autograph, conflicts of interest, and just general apathy towards being meticulous and getting it right.

fifthly, did you see the signed boxing glove that was just auctioned off at hugginsandscott.com for 2100 dollars. It had two Marciano signatures on it, and those are unlike any we have any seen, but signed off by joe orlando on a coa. Would you trust his opinion on this piece?

What makes them experts? Can anyone explain that? Mastro pushed for them and pumped up their credentials and that is how they got started, but tell me why they are good?


It is unbelievable, and you can find no criticism of this pathetic Marciano? Quit authenticating boxing, PSA!

[scyrkin]

no one is home so i will answer.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs. He goes out of his way for no one to know this. no one is suppose to know. He wants people to think he is impartial, and in order to blog on autograph magazine live you have to follow the company line or you are out. Thus the PSA defenders who wants to keep their blogging card there and stay in his good graces.

Steve Z. was one of the biggest psa critics (read his old articles) until he had a road to Damascus conversion somehow. But PSA/DNA hasn't changed their stripes one bit along the way. Why are they the best thing since sliced bread now, but back then they were the object of his derision? I don't know.

http://www.pcgs.com/Articles/Detail/3740

http://clct.client.shareholder.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=892569-99-2910&CIK=1089143

page 57


http://zipper68.blogspot.com/2004/06/psadna-goof.html

http://zipper68.blogspot.com/2004/06/psadna-authenticates-autopen.html

http://www.richardsimonsports.com/barrons.htm

Hi Travis,

Just wanted to clarify that I have no ownership or financial interest of any kind in Collectors Universe or any of its subsidiaries, such as PSA or PSA/DNA. Or their competitor, JSA. Further, none of these companies advertise with us or support us in any way. I sold all my stock in the company years ago.

BTW, PCGS, Professional Coin Grading Service, was the original name of the company. It changed its name to Collectors Universe in the mid-90s.

I have not been a manager, employee, consultant or boardmember of the company or any of its subsidiaries since the early 1990s; long before it became CU.

Please provide a detailed apology in each instance where you have published this misinformation about my companies and me, here or on any other site.

Thanks,

Steve Cyrkin

[thetruthisoutthere]

firstly, quit lying about the willie mays signed card, you know it's not true. He is a dealer and not a third party authenticator and doesn't authenticate other peoples autographs for money.

secondly, i never mentioned you at all, you flatter yourself.

thirdly, get the company line right, it's only one mistake out of 1000 (.1%), or as John R. says, 1 out of 10,000 (.01%)

5% error rate stinks. and they are the worlds experts? Mueller challenged any authenticator to a contest, winner take all, he got no takers from the worlds experts. I could clean their clock on boxing, why are they the world's boxing experts again?

fourthly, many, many of their errors are not clerical or honest mistakes, they are the product of authenticating too fast, sending the wrong person to authenticate the wrong autograph, conflicts of interest, and just general apathy towards being meticulous and getting it right.

fifthly, did you see the signed boxing glove that was just auctioned off at hugginsandscott.com for 2100 dollars. It had two Marciano signatures on it, and those are unlike any we have any seen, but signed off by joe orlando on a coa. Would you trust his opinion on this piece?

What makes them experts? Can anyone explain that? Mastro pushed for them and pumped up their credentials and that is how they got started, but tell me why they are good?


It is unbelievable, and you can find no criticism of this pathetic Marciano? Quit authenticating boxing, PSA!

Travis "What makes Todd Mueller an autograph expert?" What, no criticism of this obvious Derek Jeter forgery that Todd Mueller stated "Is authentic?"

As a matter of fact, Todd made up a whopping story to try to convince others that this Jeter forgery was authentic.

71226

[scyrkin]

Hi Travis,

Just wanted to clarify that I have no ownership or financial interest of any kind in Collectors Universe or any of its subsidiaries, such as PSA or PSA/DNA. Or their competitor, JSA. Further, none of these companies advertise with us or support us in any way. I sold all my stock in the company years ago.

BTW, PCGS, Professional Coin Grading Service, was the original name of the company. It changed its name to Collectors Universe in the mid-90s.

I have not been a manager, employee, consultant or boardmember of the company or any of its subsidiaries since the early 1990s; long before it became CU.

Please provide a detailed apology in each instance where you have published this misinformation about my companies and me, here or on any other site.

Thanks,

Steve Cyrkin

Make that here AND on any other site, not "or".

[travrosty]

Make that here AND on any other site, not "or".



this is what is stated about you, it is true.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs.

i provided links to prove it. tell me what i said here that is not true.

[mighty bombjack]

5% error rate stinks. and they are the worlds experts?

In my experience, they have a better rate than this in baseball, but I have only researched a small number of players sporadically. I'm no expert, which brings me to my next point...



Mueller challenged any authenticator to a contest, winner take all, he got no takers from the worlds experts. I could clean their clock on boxing, why are they the world's boxing experts again?

Intriguing. How would such a contest work, exactly? Who would "officiate"?

[travrosty]

i dont know , but there will never be such a competition because they know they would lose. it would have to be an impartial third party who selected the autographs, both real and fake, and see who gets the most right, with no exemplars present, just off of memory. I would love just a joe louis contest, they are clueless when it comes to Louis, a total abomination.

[JimStinson]

I would love to participate in that contest. Where is it going to be held? I've done over 150 private signings with boxers alone so I know a little about that. Italy-Argentina-Thailand-UK....lots of miles under my belt ...I'd love to give it a shot. Is there a "handicap"?

[travrosty]

you have to drink for a couple hours to give me a sporting chance :)

[JimStinson]

I'll do that ...as long as its a "light" beverage like JAGER or MAKERS MARK

[JimStinson]

When I used to drink in Havana , I drank Hemingway's drink which he invented and called a "Papa Doble" , which is a double daquari , easy on the sugar.
Well I was drinking at a place called "the Plaza of the Church" in English and I ordered my Papa Doble. and the waiter brought me TWO POTATOES ! which in correct spanish "papas Doble" means 2 potatoes...:)
By the way Ernest's record which still stands at "The Floridita" where they invented the Daquiri is 17 "Papa Doble's"

[JimStinson]

So to be fair I'll make that my "handicap":)

[travrosty]

I'll do that ...as long as its a "light" beverage like JAGER or MAKERS MARK



I was going to ask what's a heavy beverage, anti-freeze?

then i saw the papa-doble post!!!

I recognize there are several good boxing autograph guys that I would have my work cut out for and I am not claiming to be the very best but for sure none of them work for psa or jsa. they still dont have a boxing consultant listed, and the one ali guy on jsa stated publicly, but anonymously that he trusts the long time boxing dealers over the big companies "all day and twice on sunday" and that the big companies make egregious mistakes.

once jsa saw that they dropped his name from their consultant list.

when spence calls this a real luis firpo autograph like he did for the hake auction, we are all in trouble.

compare this ridiculous firpo to a real one i got directly from a collector in Argentina.

[travrosty]

So to be fair I'll make that my "handicap":)

how do i know it wouldnt make you better at it after a papa doble? haha

I did buy about 25 or so of your signed photos from your boxing signing series, all heavyweights or light heavyweights.



You had said once Zarate was a no show, did you ever get him?

[JimStinson]

LOL....I can't drink 17 Doubles ......The 2nd Firpo compares favorabily to the few I've seen , In defense though he's so scarce I've only seen a couple known real ones.

[JimStinson]

My dear friend Boxing historian Hank Kaplan once showed me the only known "Benny Kid Paret" autograph I've ever seen and Hank and I used to joke that his autograph looked like me was suspended from the ceiling upside down while spinning in a circle while he signed it. Yet I have seen several offered for sale with certs, its laughable

[travrosty]

LOL....I can't drink 17 Doubles ......The 2nd Firpo compares favorabily to the few I've seen , In defense though he's so scarce I've only seen a couple known real ones.



there are not a lot around, pretty scarce autograph. I had to sell mine though but my friend in argentina, you never know what they have in that box of autographs, maybe more firpo's. She has Alejandro Lavorante, Ringo Bonavena, other Argentinian fighters, and she had a good marciano signed album page, the husband was a longtime collector of autographs.

[travrosty]

My dear friend Boxing historian Hank Kaplan once showed me the only known "Benny Kid Paret" autograph I've ever seen and Hank and I used to joke that his autograph looked like me was suspended from the ceiling upside down while spinning in a circle while he signed it. Yet I have seen several offered for sale with certs, its laughable

Yep, well, they were slabbing and certing the geraldine signed Liston's as real listons until recently when we had to alert them that it wasn't Sonny's autograph. But they did reject a couple of real Liston autographs. Psa rejected one and JSA rejected one. it's laughable.

[scyrkin]

this is what is stated about you, it is true.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs.

i provided links to prove it. tell me what i said here that is not true.

You provided links to outdated information from 1999--information you that know is outdated because you accused me of it on my site once and I explained it to you.

But you also said this: "He goes out of his way for no one to know this. no one is suppose to know. He wants people to think he is impartial, and in order to blog on autograph magazine live you have to follow the company line or you are out. Thus the PSA defenders who wants to keep their blogging card there and stay in his good graces."

How could that be true if I don't have any financial interest in PSA or its parent?

Besides, there are a lot of negative comments and posts about PSA/DNA on Autograph Magazine Live. You know it. Like everyone else telling people it's a waste of time to read AML, you obviously read it constantly.

But I do support PSA/DNA and JSA. Why? Because even though I feel that they could and should be better, especially in some areas, overall they have made buying autographs dramatically safer than it was before them.

I'm not going to debate that here. I have a hard enough time trying to keep up with my own site. I wish I did, because I like Net54.

Steve Cyrkin

[JimStinson]

Liston's wife Geraldine insisted her entire life that she NEVER signed for Sonny which we know for a fact is not true. I spoke with Sonny's manager and confidant a couple years ago who also happened to be George Foreman's confidant and he told me that the reason Liston didn;t sign was because it was such a LABORED process it took forever so Sonny would just say "NO". His wife taught him how to sign his name so it looks ALOT like hers but has significant differences , Also as a side note and for historical purposes. Liston's guy told me he was the most "Unlucky" guy in boxing...When Sonny fought Leotis Martin he bought an "option" on BOTH fighters ..who ever won would fight for the heavyweight championship of the World. In a shocking defeat Martin knocked out Liston, and then after the Martin WIN he was diagnosed with a detached retina , which meant he could not fight. So much for hedging your bets ....lol

[JimStinson]

But I do support PSA/DNA and JSA. Why? Because even though I feel that they could and should be better, especially in some areas, overall they have made buying autographs dramatically safer than it was before them.



Steve with all due respect ...BEFORE WHAT ? In the old days dealers with great reputations would give opinions for FREE......FREE , no the hobby was not like clean driven snow , But you had maybe three or ten or more EXPERENCED autograph people going to bat at no charge. I guess because it was FREE it was worthless. If its $100.00 it MUST be worth every dime.
_______________________
Vintage REAL autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

[Big Dave]

+ 1000

[earlywynnfan]

Do you think Firpo went into boxing so he could beat up everyone who made fun of his crazy hairline?? I like the lift he gets, but why is his hairline at a diagonal?

Ken

PS: I know nothing about boxing autos, but if you both drink 17 doubles, I may be able to out-authenticate you both!

[travrosty]

Steve, read what I wrote,

I wrote past tense, he "had" a million shares, he "was" a founder of CU. And then I posted links to prove it.

please read.

you are partial to psa. you like them, that's what partial means.

I read that site as a watchdog, not because it has useful information.

[travrosty]

[QUOTE=JimStinson;1025299]But I do support PSA/DNA and JSA. Why? Because even though I feel that they could and should be better, especially in some areas, overall they have made buying autographs dramatically safer than it was before them.



Steve with all due respect ...BEFORE WHAT ? In the old days dealers with great reputations would give opinions for FREE......FREE , no the hobby was not like clean driven snow , But you had maybe three or ten or more EXPERENCED autograph people going to bat at no charge. I guess because it was FREE it was worthless. If its $100.00 it MUST be worth every dime.

==========================================


I agree with Jim, if paying 100 dollars, you better get a darn good opinion and a free shoe phone from SI!

all this third party certification has done is to slab the fakes and certify the fakes forever in those slabbed tombs, erroneously maybe, an honest mistake maybe, buy now they are in that slab forever.

I said a million times if it was done right with safeguards, checks and balances, and proper time, experience, and weighted thoughtfulness going into the authentications, with checks and balances, and a way for the public to demand honesty, integrity and transparency from the tpa's, i might think it would have some value.

but the way they do it. quick, 50,000 autographs authenticated for mastro in 48 man hours, for 7000 dollars. that's 14 cents per auto and less than 4 seconds to authenticate each autograph, and the authenticator was the consignor to the auction? that is the what steve cyrkin thinks is great?

they have to answer to the stockholders, who want increased share value. so they have to try to give them increased share value, which means increasing submissions, not hiring an adequate amount of people to properly authenticate them all, and authenticating faster and faster outside their area of expertise. whether or not it benefits the consumer or not.

brian sobrero signed off on the hotel registry of jeffries, sharkey, and corbett which as phony as a three dollar bill. i had never heard of sobrero in the boxing autograph community, he signed off on a sunday, which means he was at a show and you have to take your stab at whatever comes in the door, whether you know boxing or not.

I think it hurts the consumer and the hobby. steve cyrkin thinks its good for the hobby.

huggins and scott just auctioned off a signed glove for 2100 dollars with 2 rocky marciano autographs on it, steve.

it sold but the marciano autographs were secretarial, signed by his manager, and all the experienced boxing guys knew it wasn't his signature. why didn't psa?
what's your answer to this?

[JimStinson]

I was there when the process started and it was a GOOD idea, PSA had FOUR count em four of the best autograph guys in the country that looked at the autographs independent of one another and then gave their opinion. 90% of the time we agreed. Yes I was one of the guys. Sometimes we had HEATED debates , like jury duty but in the end we had to all agree , or render a NO OPINION. The rub was a no opinion =a refund so that was not too popular. Then it became why fly FOUR EXPERTS in when we can get by with ONE ? Then it became ......that ONE is too expensive so lets just put a couple guys BEHIND A CURTAIN that will work cheap. In the old days we used to call them "stadium chasers" they were funny to watch. But somewhere between point A and point B they became experts ...But hey spend your money however you like. the facts are the facts and I saw it with my own EYES. I was there. Is the process better than nothing ??? probably especially in light of the fact that the bogus thiefs became more sophisticated to keep up with thier competition...which frankly is like a boy fighting a man. Sorry to tell you there is NO magic wand. Its opinions based on many, many years of experience ...you can't BUY that

[David Atkatz]

I was there when the process started and it was a GOOD idea, PSA had FOUR count em four of the best autograph guys in the country that looked at the autographs independent of one another and then gave their opinion. 90% of the time we agreed. Yes I was one of the guys. Sometimes we had HEATED debates , like jury duty but in the end we had to all agree , or render a NO OPINION. The rub was a no opinion =a refund so that was not too popular. Then it became why fly FOUR EXPERTS in when we can get by with ONE ? Then it became ......that ONE is too expensive so lets just put a couple guys BEHIND A CURTAIN that will work cheap. In the old days we used to call them "stadium chasers" they were funny to watch. But somewhere between point A and point B they became experts ...But hey spend your money however you like. the facts are the facts and I saw it with my own EYES. I was there. Is the process better than nothing ??? probably especially in light of the fact that the bogus thiefs became more sophisticated to keep up with thier competition...which frankly is like a boy fighting a man. Sorry to tell you there is NO magic wand. Its opinions based on many, many years of experience ...you can't BUY that+1

[JimStinson]

Thank you but I will probably be sorry I said that in the morning

[HRBAKER]

I was there when the process started and it was a GOOD idea, PSA had FOUR count em four of the best autograph guys in the country that looked at the autographs independent of one another and then gave their opinion. 90% of the time we agreed. Yes I was one of the guys. Sometimes we had HEATED debates , like jury duty but in the end we had to all agree , or render a NO OPINION. The rub was a no opinion =a refund so that was not too popular. Then it became why fly FOUR EXPERTS in when we can get by with ONE ? Then it became ......that ONE is too expensive so lets just put a couple guys BEHIND A CURTAIN that will work cheap. In the old days we used to call them "stadium chasers" they were funny to watch. But somewhere between point A and point B they became experts ...But hey spend your money however you like. the facts are the facts and I saw it with my own EYES. I was there. Is the process better than nothing ??? probably especially in light of the fact that the bogus thiefs became more sophisticated to keep up with thier competition...which frankly is like a boy fighting a man. Sorry to tell you there is NO magic wand. Its opinions based on many, many years of experience ...you can't BUY that

+100

Thanks for saying it!

[JimStinson]

Well Good ! I hope I get some help from my friends here or I am f****ed
Because I was not the only one there.
I did not mention any names because they know who they were

[Big Dave]

+1...+1... It's all about the Benjamins......it's not about integrity, accuracy, correctness, honesty, or ethics.....it is all about the Benjamins....bottom line...and nothing else.

[JimStinson]

Ok ...now my friends will step forward at the risk of having EVERYTHING rejected

[Big Dave]

Under the expansion of service, PSA announced the addition of four highly acclaimed autograph experts. James Spence, Jr., Ron Gordon, Richard Simon, and Jim Stinson will each act as authenticators on behalf of PSA/DNA Certified Vintage. "Autograph collecting is a great hobby, unfortunately it has had its share of scandal. A third party authenticator employing world class experts is unprecedented. We are very excited to offer this service and hope it will encourage the growth of the hobby," said Rocchi.
James Spence - a third generation autograph collector, currently authenticates for well-known auction houses, such as Superior Sportcards, Mastro Fine Sports Auctions, and Hunt Auctions; member of the Universal Autograph Collectors Club (UACC) and the Society of American Baseball Research (SABR).
Ron Gordon- a dealer since 1971; subject of several television, radio, and magazine interviews; member of the UACC since 1985. (more) PSA Certified Vintage-and one
Richard Simon - has served as an expert witness in forgery cases as well as written articles for Autograph Collector magazine and Pen and Quill; 14 year member of the UACC; most notable for his consultation to two New York auction houses, including Guernsey's recent sale that featured the $3 million McGwire ball.
Jim Stinson- considered one of the leading authorities on baseball and boxing autographs; professional boxing judge for the WBF; member of the UACC, SABR, The Manuscript Society, and The Hemingway Society and has been featured in USA Today, NBC News, The Chicago Tribune, and Autograph Collector magazine.

[travrosty]

my boss used to tell me, when searching for a vendor to build your product, you can have a quality item, quick turnaround, or a cheap price, - you can pick two of the three, but not all three.


well they seemed to have picked quick turnaround and a cheap running internal operation so you can guess which one is left off?

[Big Dave]

None of those three apply to this situation and company.

All three have vanished.

[mighty bombjack]

i dont know , but there will never be such a competition because they know they would lose. it would have to be an impartial third party who selected the autographs, both real and fake, and see who gets the most right, with no exemplars present, just off of memory. I would love just a joe louis contest, they are clueless when it comes to Louis, a total abomination.

See, my point was that someone would have to select the real and fake autos. So, the contest would be one of who agrees or disagrees with the judge more. Who would the judge be? Who is never wrong?

[travrosty]

See, my point was that someone would have to select the real and fake autos. So, the contest would be one of who agrees or disagrees with the judge more. Who would the judge be? Who is never wrong?



nobody is never wrong. but the third party judge could pick autos with information about them that the participants don't have, like impeccable provenance, in person autos with the recipients still living, and so forth.

not a perfect system but the chances that one autograph making the difference and being in dispute to taint the whole contest would hopefully be slim.

i know if two guys were involved and asked me to be the judge, i am confident i could find a bunch of autographs i knew were good and bad because i would have a lot of time to pick the autographs and use outside help too. the trick is to find some that are not dead on or dead off because you need some of them a little challenging, but not a trick autograph either that doesnt give clues as to its authenticity. i.e. a real autograph written left handed by a righty who did it as a lark. I would have fun doing the contest with anybody I knew had real experience, because maybe i would lose or win by one or two autographs and nothing to be ashamed of, but i know i could beat psa, because they say they know boxing, but do they really? Mix in a preprint, stamp or secretarial in there too. make it a hard test but fair. Losing to psa would be quite embarrassing I would admit but i'm not too worried, they ain't taking me up on the offer because who is their best boxing guy, steve grad? they are the ones who said they needed help in boxing, i am afraid they still do.

http://www.fighttoys.com/PSAHolyfield.htm

http://www.fighttoys.com/PSAMarciano2.htm

psa used to have a contest at the national to test peoples authentication skill, they called it the psa world series of autograph authentication or whatever, richard bond won the first year and mark theotikos won the second year, and then they stopped doing it. but they had some silly time limit and is that what authentication is all about, rushing somebody?

[RichardSimon]

psa used to have a contest at the national to test peoples authentication skill, they called it the psa world series of autograph authentication or whatever, richard bond won the first year and mark theotikos won the second year, and then they stopped doing it. but they had some silly time limit and is that what authentication is all about, rushing somebody?

Well that was just a precursor to the PSA philosophy of getting the work done quickly. Can you imagine a time limit on autograph authentication?? Ridiculous.
And I was not an entrant if anyone was going to ask that question.

[RichardSimon]

Under the expansion of service, PSA announced the addition of four highly acclaimed autograph experts. James Spence, Jr., Ron Gordon, Richard Simon, and Jim Stinson will each act as authenticators on behalf of PSA/DNA Certified Vintage. "Autograph collecting is a great hobby, unfortunately it has had its share of scandal. A third party authenticator employing world class experts is unprecedented. We are very excited to offer this service and hope it will encourage the growth of the hobby," said Rocchi.
James Spence - a third generation autograph collector, currently authenticates for well-known auction houses, such as Superior Sportcards, Mastro Fine Sports Auctions, and Hunt Auctions; member of the Universal Autograph Collectors Club (UACC) and the Society of American Baseball Research (SABR).
Ron Gordon- a dealer since 1971; subject of several television, radio, and magazine interviews; member of the UACC since 1985. (more) PSA Certified Vintage-and one
Richard Simon - has served as an expert witness in forgery cases as well as written articles for Autograph Collector magazine and Pen and Quill; 14 year member of the UACC; most notable for his consultation to two New York auction houses, including Guernsey's recent sale that featured the $3 million McGwire ball.
Jim Stinson- considered one of the leading authorities on baseball and boxing autographs; professional boxing judge for the WBF; member of the UACC, SABR, The Manuscript Society, and The Hemingway Society and has been featured in USA Today, NBC News, The Chicago Tribune, and Autograph Collector magazine.

I hope people do not think that this is a current press release. :D:D.
The best thing about that work was hanging out with Jim Stinson :).

[travrosty]

Well that was just a precursor to the PSA philosophy of getting the work done quickly. Can you imagine a time limit on autograph authentication?? Ridiculous.
And I was not an entrant if anyone was going to ask that question.



They used their own template of "under the gun" "beat the clock" authentication" Plus authenticating in that contest by scan only. Nice.

They should bring it back. See who can authenticate the fastest.