new member introduction

[kengoldin]

Hello All
As some of you may have heard, I , along with Harry Bryant, Phil Spector, Rob Mitchell and others have opened up an auction house. Goldin Auctions, www.goldinauctions.com
There is a great article about us in this weeks SCD (The National issue) if you can find it, it really explains why I opened the auction company, what our policies are, specialties, etc.
here are some bullet points...and to be blunt, I tried to take everything that bothered me/I would change about an auction company and fix it with goldin auctions.
I would appreciate your support to log in to www.goldinauctions.com to register.

some highlights
1. no more 18-20% buyers premium. our buyers premium is only 10%
2. no more having to run out and spend money to upgrade an auction LOA (how that annoys me, especially when it comes back 'no good' after a pre cert). We provide full LOA's
3. all autographed items will come with a LOA from a first party company (the witness) such as MLB, Steiner, UDA, or otherwise will come with a full LOA from PSA/DNA
4. all game used items will come with a letter directly from player, team, and absent that a letter from Mears (jersey) or Mears/PSA/DNA (bats)
5. considering my background in player relations, our specialty will be bringing player collections to the auction.
6. we will have over 1000 lots in the first auction, featuring Babe Ruth autographed bat, 1980 Phils WS ring, Alomar gold glove, Jordan Amex card, Rice TD jersey, Jordan game used jersey, The Bernie parent collection, The Dave Schultz collection, rare baseball cards, and i promise you this, a lot of big surprises that are going to shock some people that a 'new' auction house got such a valuable and prestigious item .

1st Auction will close Nov 1st or 2nd (waiting on World Series schedule).
please log into www.goldinauctions.com to register now. free catalog with every registration. we plan on running quarterly auctions.
feel free to PM me, or email me directly with any questions, as well as consignments.
ken@goldinauctions.com

[Leon]

Welcome Ken.

And our members should know that Ken is going to be an advertiser on the board through some email blasts and/or banners. As most know these kind of front page threads are reserved for our valued advertisers. Other auctions and businesses should post in the Buy/Sell/Trade (BST) section in the appropriate category. I should mention too that Ken and I just had a really good phone conversation and I am excited about him being a member of our board. It is always good to have well respected and seasoned hobbyists join us in our reindeer games. regards

[ScottFandango]

i think you missed some of the biggest bullet points...

1. will the auction house owners consign their own material?
2. how will shill bidding by consigners be controlled?
3. how will you prove that auction house owners dont place hidden "reserve bids?"

thanks, and i love the 10% buyers premium, well done

[drc]

Auction houses seller their own items have never bothered me. For the record.

[kengoldin]

LOl Scott. While there are some easy targets out there, I will not take shots at companies that are in the news for a variety of things that are being accused of. I will say that I and the people involved all have been in the business for 20+ years EACH (I am 46, and sold my first BB card at 12, bought my first at 9). We are all very well aware of all the items in the news and all of us like our families and homes,and have no interest in spending 'time away from them' and will be taking every precaution to avoid the negatives that have been recently been in the news about some of the existing businesses. In this environment, I am glad we will be running our FIRST auction Nov 1.
I am always open to suggestions to improve your experience in dealing with Goldin Auctions.

Also: I invite everyone to 'like' us on facebook at Goldin auctions. We have a ton of images of our booth at National with many items that are on consignment, as well as Dave Schultz and Bernie Parent dropping off their collections, and photos of players and old friends visiting us at the National

[Jaybird]

Will there be House Bidding at Goldin Auctions?

[bh3443]

Hi Ken,
I want to wish you all the best with your company. I'm glad to see you announce this on our great community here on Net 54.
It's been many decades since we first met at Willow Grove when we were teenagers and our Dad's drove us around to shows!
I'm looking forward to seeing your auctions and it's nice to re-new our friendship. All the best to you, your family and your company.
Your Friend,
Bill Hedin

[RobertGT]

Will Don West of Shop at Home fame be making a cameo appearance? That was some classic late-night TV:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-K7A1QGtuUU

Good luck with your auction!

[botn]

Yikes! Let's hope he runs the auction with a whole lot more integrity than he did when he was misrepresenting stuff on Home Shopping otherwise it will be bidders and consignors who "will be taking every precaution to avoid the negatives..."

[travrosty]

I have 600 Todd Van Poppel rookie cards and still waiting for him to be the next Nolan Ryan, he's got to catch on with a club someday, he's 41, but if Moyer can do it! Still hoping!

[jefferyepayne]

Will there be House Bidding at Goldin Auctions?

Is it time for the "Sound of Silence" video yet?

jeff

[calvindog]

Yikes! Let's hope he runs the auction with a whole lot more integrity than he did when he was misrepresenting stuff on Home Shopping otherwise it will be bidders and consignors who "will be taking every precaution to avoid the negatives..."

Witch hunt!

[scgaynor]

I have actually been helping Ken put this together and get it started.

We have had several long talks about how other auctions are run, and how to best run Goldin Auctions to avoid the same problems.

As far as house bids. Goldin Auctions will not be bidding. Some items will have reserves, but the reserve price will be made known before the close of the auction (probably within 72 hours). For that reason, there is no reason for Goldin Auctions to bid.

As far as consignors bidding on their own material, the consignor contract states that no consignor may bid directly or indirectly on their own material.

Scott

[botn]

Witch hunt!

Should we give him a pass as we have others?

[calvindog]

Should we give him a pass as we have others?

Like Bill Goodwin?

[botn]

Like Bill Goodwin?

Nah. Like JP or Dave.

[calvindog]

Well, Dave is my client so if I ripped him I'd get disbarred or suspended from practicing law. As for JP I suspect he'd tell you that I haven't given him a pass.

[botn]

As for JP I suspect he'd tell you that I haven't given him a pass.

You really think he saw that one post you made about him?


Well, Dave is my client so if I ripped him I'd get disbarred or suspended from practicing law.

Boy lucky for him.

[calvindog]

It was more than one post...and I have to tell you, I am critical of more auction houses and dealers than everyone else on this board is put together. And I've gotten attacked repeatedly for it (not that I care obviously but still) -- especially when I dared to go after Mastro and Dougie. Maybe I'm not the guy to give crap to for cozying up to the industry?

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[hammer]

Phil Spector was a record producer for the Rondetts?

[mark evans]

"Ronettes" -- a great group from my youth. Obviously a different Spector as the record producer is in prison for murder.

[NewEnglandBaseBallist]

Is this the same Ken Goldin that ran Score Board, Inc.?

[Leon]

Is this the same Ken Goldin that ran Score Board, Inc.?

Yes.

[botn]

It was more than one post...and I have to tell you, I am critical of more auction houses and dealers than everyone else on this board is put together. And I've gotten attacked repeatedly for it (not that I care obviously but still) -- especially when I dared to go after Mastro and Dougie. Maybe I'm not the guy to give crap to for cozying up to the industry?

I don't think you are cozying up to the industry but I do feel there are only a few people or houses who are in your sights. Being critical is not the same as what you did with Doug and Bill and the others who are on your list. That's all I am sayin'.

But this thread is about Ken Goldin, which got derailed with your jab at me. Takes but a minute to do a search and find out about Goldin's past, assuming you do not already know about it. I would think a guy who is not cozy with the industry and is critical of auction houses would be concerned.

I do not know Goldin nor have I done business with him but collectors were clearly taken advantage of, if not defrauded, by him. Not just on Home Shopping, where he hyped truly worthless cards to an unsuspecting public but also claims that a great deal of the Scoreboard, Inc signed material never passed authentication despite the LOA's they offered.

[Leon]

I don't think you are cozying up to the industry but I do feel there are only a few people or houses who are in your sights. Being critical is not the same as what you did with Doug and Bill and the others who are on your list. That's all I am sayin'.

But this thread is about Ken Goldin, which got derailed with your jab at me. Takes but a minute to do a search and find out about Goldin's past, assuming you do not already know about it. I would think a guy who is not cozy with the industry and is critical of auction houses would be concerned.

I do not know Goldin nor have I done business with him but collectors were clearly taken advantage of, if not defrauded, by him. Not just on Home Shopping, where he hyped truly worthless cards to an unsuspecting public but also claims that a great deal of the Scoreboard, Inc signed material never passed authentication despite the LOA's they offered.

I was told some of the issues were done after Ken left Scoreboard too....I want to hear everything then we can all make our own decisions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There is also a question of redemption cards being offered when Scoreboard was on the verge of bankruptcy and knew the cards would never be redeemed, but perhaps that too post-dated Ken's involvement, I don't know.

[Leon]

There is also a question of redemption cards being offered when Scoreboard was on the verge of bankruptcy and knew the cards would never be redeemed, but perhaps that too post-dated Ken's involvement, I don't know.

Ken and I were just now on the phone and he is stuck in traffic and traveling today. He said he WILL respond concerning the redemption's but reiterated the issue was after he was gone. Also, I cut and pasted what he wrote in a thread on the memorabilia side below. It addresses some of the COA issues......As I said, he said he will try to respond to questions later this evening but is out of pocket till then..



My favorite players was NEVER a partner of the Score Board inc.
My favorite players NEVER supplied autographs to the Score Board inc.
My Favorite players was a vendor of framing services for SB from approximately 1989-90 until SB purchased their own company California Gold and moved it on site to have better control of the product and better pricing.
Score Board inc sued My Favorite Players in the past for selling forged autographs of players The Score Board inc had under contract, and the owners of My Favorite Players signed a consent decree that they NEVER would sell autographs again of many athletes the score board had under contract, including Mickey Mantle, Ted WIlliams, Joe Dimaggio, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Wayne Gretzky,etc.
It has been brought to my attention in the past that the former owners of MFP claimed they 'won a lawsuit against SB and were given millions of $$ in inventory' Not only is this completely false, but since SB was a publicly held company if there was a shred of truth to it , it would have been part of financial statements (public record) and was not.
I will also say that in the past there have been numerous attempts by individuals and companies to counterfeit SB certs. unfortunately,many were successful in making good copies as the product was distributed prior to the advent of holograms, dna marking, etc.
I would say buyer beware, and out of respect to this community, I offer my services to answer any questions you have about merchandise in PM, and will also look at items for you in PM as long as i do not get overwhelmed.




.

[botn]

Hey Leon,

There is plenty of info out there about Goldin pushing truly worthless cards in disreputable TPG holders to unsuspecting or less sophisticated buyers through Home Shopping. He and Don would banter back and forth about how rare a particular card was. Was always a hot modern athlete like Michael Jordan, Ken Griffey, Tiger Woods, etc to get people excited and the cards were always off brand issues. They would price the cards at some absurd level playing off of the current prices realized of those players true rookie cards that were graded by a legit grading company. Really sleazy stuff.

I do not know the timing of Scoreboard and the extent of Goldin's involvement with the bogus LOAs for the phony signed material but it is interesting that only now he is offering a service to this community to answer questions and look at Scoreboard items. What about the rest of the collectors who do not post here and why did he not do something in this capacity soon after it was discovered the items with his company's name on it were bad?

Goldin has nothing to worry about. No crime or fraud is too great to scare away potential bidders. If you have something they want they do not care what you have done or who you have done it to. Goldin Auctions will be huge!

[Leon]

Hey Greg
I don't put hawking almost worthless cards for good money in the same category as some other things. Not a great strategy but not illegal. Not a lot different than some ebay sellers :). As long as no absolute fraud was committed I am willing to let the Home Shopping Network stuff go. To each their own though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hey Greg
I don't put hawking almost worthless cards for good money in the same category as some other things. Not a great strategy but not illegal. Not a lot different than some ebay sellers :). As long as no absolute fraud was committed I am willing to let the Home Shopping Network stuff go. To each their own though.

If he did that, it doesn't reflect highly on his integrity, in my opinion. A lot of gullible folk out there, and it's wrong to take advantage of them.

[botn]

Exactly my point, Peter.

Leon, I was not saying it was illegal but coupled with the redemption cards and the phony signed material does not put Goldin in the best of light, correct?

His history in the hobby is not that of someone who can be trusted based on the information that is out there. And I disagree with you that what he and Don did on HSN is akin to that of what some eBay sellers do. Feel free to give me some examples, even privately, so maybe I can see your point. What was done on HSN was really nothing short of taking advantage of people who were less informed about hobby issues than those who are shopping on eBay. I don't think praying on someone's lack of knowledge is a level playing field. I know you would not stoop to operating in that fashion.

[Leon]

Exactly my point, Peter.

Leon, I was not saying it was illegal but coupled with the redemption cards and the phony signed material does not put Goldin in the best of light, correct?

His history in the hobby is not that of someone who can be trusted based on the information that is out there. And I disagree with you that what he and Don did on HSN is akin to that of what some eBay sellers do. Feel free to give me some examples, even privately, so maybe I can see your point. What was done on HSN was really nothing short of taking advantage of people who were less informed about hobby issues than those who are shopping on eBay. I don't think praying on someone's lack of knowledge is a level playing field. I know you would not stoop to operating in that fashion.

Hi Greg
The redemption cards were after he left, according to what he told me. No, the totality of these circumstances is not a great light to be in, agreed.

Until I see something where fraud was committed I am not as concerned as a few on this board including yourself. As far as disagreeing with me, no problem there. If someone has a card on ebay for $1000 and they bought it the day before for $20, to me, it's similar. Maybe not exactly the same but similar. This capitalist world we live in is always caveat emptor. And lastly, no, I don't see me being that guy on HSN screaming at the top of his lungs. Heck, I am still hoarse from the Dinner at the National. I couldn't handle all of that screaming.

[barrysloate]

Sometimes you have a situation where someone did not do anything illegal but did do something unethical. That's an important distinction.

[scgaynor]

From my conversations with Ken, my sense is that he is interested in running a 1st rate auction.

My suggestion is to register for the auction, get the free catalog, and if you think that items are being over-hyped, there are problems with authenticity or that unethical things are going on, bring it to his attention.

Scott

[shelly]

I would also remind you that on his show he had his own card grading company.
Every card was a 10 and worth hundred's to thousands of dollars.:confused:
Scott are you not part of this operation?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Shelly what grading company was that?

[wonkaticket]

Hey Greg
I don't put hawking almost worthless cards for good money in the same category as some other things. Not a great strategy but not illegal. Not a lot different than some ebay sellers :). As long as no absolute fraud was committed I am willing to let the Home Shopping Network stuff go. To each their own though.

Taking advantage of people for financial gain with misinformation or bloated claims is just as bad as selling a fake jersey IMO.

Regardless of its illegal or not makes no difference to me….sort of like it’s not illegal to lie to old ladies as some televangelist and rob them of cash for prayers and your so called direct line to god.

[shelly]

WCG. Every card he had on the show was a ten. He would then show what the card was going for on Ebay. He would then tell them what a deal they where getting. He also used to pack up a hundred or more cards at a time and show they where all Hall of Famers worth hundreds of dollars. I dont think any of the cards where worth more than ten cents. He would sell the package for around 69-75 dollars plus shipping. Don West was the Hawk.

[kengoldin]

I would appreciate if the board could pause from replies and posts as I have 4 large files I will be posting. This will address in 1 time and place everything that has been brought up
thank you

[Peter_Spaeth]

WCG. Every card he had on the show was a ten. He would then show what the card was going for on Ebay. He would then tell them what a deal they where getting. He also used to pack up a hundred or more cards at a time and show they where all Hall of Famers worth hundreds of dollars. I dont think any of the cards where worth more than ten cents. He would sell the package for around 69-75 dollars plus shipping. Don West was the Hawk.

Never heard of that one.

EDIT TO ADD But it's out there.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Cards-/212/i.html?_nkw=wcg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Taking advantage of people for financial gain with misinformation or bloated claims is just as bad as selling a fake jersey IMO.

Regardless of its illegal or not makes no difference to me….sort of like it’s not illegal to lie to old ladies as some televangelist and rob them of cash for prayers and your so called direct line to god.

Well stated. Hopefully this will be addressed, assuming it happened.

[wonkaticket]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IVxN5iQ_Ri0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/v59ijKADTME?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

1:50 mark...funny stuff.

Some great quotes….

“What we decided is after this I’m going to retire…I’m going to be talked out of it I’m sure…how can you top this…how?”

“Simply put this is the greatest baseball card trading product ever put out in the history of mankind!”

Don West on the Tiger Woods Grand Slam Card: “This is the greatest card purchase you will ever make in your life card wise….the number one card in the world!” “The next time we air this it could and should be 4-20k right Kenny? We want to thank you for letting us have these Kenny.”

“That’s right Don…we easily could have raised the price…it’s the best grade Tiger you can get unless somebody has a 100 if they do I’m paying 60k!”

Don West: “Kenny I think you’re looking at a future 100k ball card in this Tiger Woods!”

“I have no doubt you’re looking at a future 100k ball card, can you imagine if Mickey Mantle only ever had one card ever!!”

Done West: “Kenny I can give an example Honus Wagner he has what like only 4 different cards? Tiger has just one.”

“Yes you’re correct that’s right”

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-98-TIGER-WOODS-GSV-ROOKIE-PSA-9-ONLY-2-GRADED-HIGHER-/251117809386?pt=US_Golf_Trading_Cards&hash=item3a77c9aeea

[shelly]

Sorry Kenny I couldn't wait for your post.
this just sold for a dollar from wgc grading. This card sold for one dollar. What happened to it being worth hundreds?

71129

71130

[wonkaticket]

Well stated. Hopefully this will be addressed, assuming it happened.

See for yourself above... :)

[kengoldin]

I am going to write a few posts addressing different subjects that have been mentioned here. I am asking each of you not to interrupt the posts by posting in between . I am not going to be answering things publicly piecemeal, or on the public boards after this. Legitimate questions that I feel are simply not mud slinging, I will reply to if I see them. My PM is always open to questions and I invite you to PM me if I can be of any assistance, as is my email, ken@goldinauctions.com

1. Score Board inc(SB) and autographs. SB was the first company to mass market sports autographs, and to sign athletes to long term deals. All autographs signed for SB were witnessed and affidavits were signed by the athletes attesting to the fact they personally signed xx items on xx date. Each item came with a certificate of authenticity from SB. at the time (1989) this was a revolution in the industry, and put autographed memorabilia on the TV shopping networks, JC penny catalog, Sharper Image, Sams clubs, and more.
Unfortunately, the technology back then was not where it was in the late 90s to today. There were instances of customers from QVC and elsewhere taking a fake autograph, coupling it with a real cert, and trying to sell it as authentic with a SB cert. SB went after these people when brought to its attention and I have articles from 20 years ago in my possession talking about this.
In addition, there were instances of people, while SB was still in business, counterfeiting SB certs and trying to pass off fake autographs and fake SB certs as real certs. Again, there are court cases to this effect and I have articles on how SB busted people with uncut sheets of fake SB certs at the printer.
around 92-93 to combat these problems SB started marking its autographed items with a mark that was detectable under UV light. In addition, it began to mark its certs with a hidden water mark as well. 100% of the certs that are REAL and have the name 'ken goldin' have this mark. If it does not have the mark, and has the facsimile of Ken goldin, it is a fake cert. SB did not publicize this fact because it wanted to stay 1 step ahead of the forgers. It told its customers but did not point out where the water mark was, it what it was. I have , however, made dealers and press (example an interview i did with TJ Schwartz 2 years ago where he mentioned that SB certs and items were marked...but did not mention where or how) are of this.

Once SB filed for bankruptcy in April 1998, and once they ceased operations totally in 1999, there have been a flood of fake autographs and fake SB certs hitting the markets. The forgers, with the knowledge there is no one to sue them or go after them, have used what good will the SB had left in the autograph industry, to sell their fake items with a fake SB cert on the unsuspecting buyer.

I have spent the past 10 years working law enforcement and hobby members to police the industry of these forgeries. I have worked with others in the industry to try to make people aware of fakes, clean up EBAY, as well keep people informed of what an athlete signed under his SB contract. I have personally contacted well over 200 EBAY sellers DIRECTLY with respect to an item that they are selling with an SB cert that I know is fake, or in many cases was not even an item that the athlete signed under his contract (ie: Mickey mantle never signed a single bat for SB, not even ONE for me personally...and i asked him!). It is very sad to me that some newer collectors are sold an autograph item with a Sb cert, find out from PSA or JSA it is no good, and then mistakenly think SB sold fake autographs. The fact is, the cert is likely NOT a real SB cert, and the item is not an SB item.
I am happy to make myself available to members of this community to send me images or ask me questions about athlete contracts and who signed what and make educated purchase decisions. As a result of all this, it is imperative that if you want to re sell anything with a supposed SB cert, you pretty much need to go to JSA or PSA, unless you are selling to experts like Mill Creek who trust their own judgement.

[barrysloate]

I wish that guy would talk louder....I can't hear him.

[kengoldin]

2.. REDEMPTIONS
For 15 years I have seen my name associated with unfulfilled redemptions on items from SB trading card product. Here is a timeline and facts.
in 1995 Due to the hockey lockout, basketball lockout, and baseball strike, and 80% of SB revenue coming from those areas (card and memorabilia sales) the board of directors of SB agreed to take on outside investors to boost the company's finances . A large percentage of the company was sold to TL Ventures, a subsidiary of publicly held Safeguard Scientifics. As a result, their appointee John White was named to the board as was another member of TL, and John White was appointed COO and later president in 1996. During late 1996 i became aware of a plan from the TL people to 'isolate Ken Goldin and eliminate his allies in the company. extend his contract as we need his name, marketing and creativity, but take him out of management decisions". With this knowledge, I knew what was planned for me, and in the spring of 2007 i infored the board that I did not intend to sign a new employment contract. At that point, they tried aggressively to keep me. In July of 2007 i negotiated a deal with Frontier communications to allow them to buy their way out of a phone card contract with SB for approximately $8 million in cash, 1 lump payment. I flew up there, got a check. The company deposited the check, and made an announcement. the following week, feeling I left the company in good financial steed as it had plenty of money to operate, I wanted to leave on a good note and rather than wait till 12/31/97 I sent a letter to the board resigning in August of 1997. Unfortunately for me financially, I had never sold stock, and pretty much left the company with the same amount of money in the bank as i started in 1987.
After my resignation, John White of TL Ventures was named CEO (he was president at the time). Instead of using the money from frontier for operations, inventory, salaries, etc. He and the board decided to pay off long term bonds that were NOT DUE FOR ANOTHER 5 YEARS. They took this action so that the company would remain listed on NASDAQ and they would not be forced by their auditors to write down their investment.
Well, as you can imagine, John White and the others did not know how to run a sports card and memorabilia business, so when it became time to fulfill redemptions for 1997 All sport PPF (and any other products that were issued by them after i left...have no clue how many issues there were) they decided the company needed the cash, so they started selling some of the items that had been set aside for the redemption instead of redeeming them. When things snowballed horribly in march of 98, and they filed bankruptcy, the court said that the redemption holders were basically last in line creditors, so all of the remaining redemption items were put back into inventory (they previously were seperated out into their own section of the warehouse) and sold at auction.....meaning any un-shipped redemptions at that time would never be filled.
I was a very identifiable and well known figure associated with SB, however Not only was i was not there when this occurred, but unfortunately the issue has been an erroneous thorn in my side for 15 years.
ALL OF THE ABOVE. is documented in financial reports and filings from SB, and can be verified from long time SB employees who are still in the industry, as well as articles.

[kengoldin]

part 3.
to tie up some other loose ends
in reply to someone here, I am not involved with any grading company. Do not now nor have I ever owned a grading company. For certain mass market sales in the past I have used services of low budget grading companies to save expenses, in fact the whole reason Beckett came up with the BCCG brand was to get a large portion of my business in 99-2000 era.
Anything in Goldin auctions will be graded by PSA (overwhelming majority) and SGC the rest of the time. no other grading service will be used.

With respect to Don west and Shop at Home, I believe the last time I was on was around 2002 10 years ago. Yes, SAH had an aggressive sales style, and I was one of 6 main vendors they had. All vendors used the same aggressive sales style as that was their format. At the same time, I was on QVC which is well known as a network that has no hype, does not allow values to be stated or claimed, and does not allow a hard sell. I am still occasionally on QVC as I was for their Fenway park 100th anniversary show. If a multi billion $ company like QVC has no issues with me and feels I do a good job for their customers, I am proud of that and I believe that speaks volumes about me.

[kengoldin]

part 4 of 4, final

All of this brings us to Goldin Auctions. I have purchased millions over the years from auction houses (all of them practically) and consigned millions as well. It is thru that experience, and noticing the downfalls, the problems, the high fees, the lack of good LOAs, that drove me to start this business. I prefer not to list out all the things that drove me to open the business, but an interview with me that goes into detail is in the SCD.

Some of the keys to the auction house
1. any graded cards will be graded by PSA or SGC..ONLY
2. all autographed items will come with FIRST PARTY AUTHENTICATION (verifiable authenticity from MLB, UDA, Steiner) OR come with a cert/letter from PSA/DNA NO AUCTION LETTER CERTS. if there is a large grouping of autographs it may be PSA/DNA pre cert. No more spending $1000+ on an item at auction and having to spend another $25-$150 for a full letter (and worse, finding out their more stringent check of the item rules it non authentic...something that has happened to me several times on 'auction LOAs'

3. all game used items will come with a letter directly from player, team, and absent that a letter from Mears (jersey) or Mears/PSA/DNA (bats)
4. no more 18-20% buyers premium. our buyers premium is only 10%
5. considering my background in player relations, our specialty will be bringing player collections to the auction.
6. we will have over 1000 lots in the first auction, featuring Babe Ruth autographed bat, 1980 Phillies WS ring, Alomar gold glove, Jordan Amex card, Rice TD jersey, Jordan game used jersey, The Bernie parent collection, The Dave Schultz collection, rare baseball cards, and i promise you this, a lot of big surprises that are going to shock some people that a 'new' auction house got such a valuable and prestigious item .
7. an experienced staff (go to 'about us' section at www.goldinauctions.com) with impeccable reputations in the industry. Industry legends who have been in the business for 40+ years like Phil Spector, 30 years for harry Bryant, Extensive auction and EBAY experience like Scott Gaynor, long time well known hobby collectors and dealers like Rob Mitchell, etc.
8. no house bidding (enough said)
9. If an item has a reserve , you will know about it well before closing night of the auction.

I ask that you give us a try, and see for yourself. Check out our web site, our staff, and when the catalog comes out, our items. I am going to work hard to earn your trust and support. I believe I have in great detail and length addressed any questions that were raised about me 10-20 years ago. I will not comment on them further on these boards because, to be honest, everyone has a comment to add, and some will simply want it to go on forever. Hopefully all of this has to at least some of you shed some light on things. I was probably known as someone who was not accessible to the hobby, did not do shows, conventions, or forums. All of that is changing. I will be doing the show circuit with the team to promote the business, and importantly for net 54 members, will make myself accessible to answer questions with respect to authenticity, older items you want to make sure are actually 'from SB and real' and most importantly help you avoid autograph forgeries. I am also always available to PM and ask a private question or send me an image to look at and see if I have any info. I would like to help make this forum and great community a better place, and I would like your input and help in making www.goldinauctions.com the best it can be. PLEASE...help yourselves here. If there are things that I have not addressed that you always wanted to see, or things you wanted fixed in an auction house, now is your chance. Our first Auction closes 11/1-2, and we currently have over $3 million and counting for auction. Tell me what you want to see, and especially what you do not want to see.
For those of you who took the time to carefully read all 4 posts, you have my thanks and appreciation.
regards
Ken Goldin
again, i will make myself available by PM here, as well as email at ken@goldinauctions.com

[Peter_Spaeth]

part 3.
to tie up some other loose ends
in reply to someone here, I am not involved with any grading company. Do not now nor have I ever owned a grading company. For certain mass market sales in the past I have used services of low budget grading companies to save expenses, in fact the whole reason Beckett came up with the BCCG brand was to get a large portion of my business in 99-2000 era.
Anything in Goldin auctions will be graded by PSA (overwhelming majority) and SGC the rest of the time. no other grading service will be used.

With respect to Don west and Shop at Home, I believe the last time I was on was around 2002 10 years ago. Yes, SAH had an aggressive sales style, and I was one of 6 main vendors they had. All vendors used the same aggressive sales style as that was their format. That is how it was done at SAH. At the same time, I was on QVC which is well known as a network that has no hype, does not allow values to be stated or claimed, and does not allow a hard sell. I am still occasionally on QVC as I was for their Fenway park 100th anniversary show. If a multi billion $ company like QVC has no issues with me and feels I do a good job for their customers, I am proud of that and I believe that speaks volumes about me.

"That is how it was done"?? Uh, ok, but did you not benefit from "how it was done?" More importantly, do you acknowledge it was problematic, or are you defending it, it's hard to tell?

[RichardSimon]

I have actually been offered a laughable Babe Ruth autograph with a SB cert :D. Really. Dumbest seller I ever communicated with.
It is certainly true that SB certs have been duplicated by many, many criminals.
And as Ken has said we have worked together to help collectors with fake SB certs and to get crap off ebay that was advertised with fake SB certs.

[kengoldin]

Peter: Did not want to reply individually, but will inthis case and hope my 4 lengthy posts otherwise speak for themselves. in no way am i defending the practice or the era, and since then I have had 2 daughters and wish you tube didnt have gag reels of me calling into SAH. But it is a part of my past, we all know it, and move on. I believe the direction I have chosen with the auction house, as well as the good policies, procedures, and most importantly, great product sold in an honest fashion will over time outweigh all. I want the chance to prove myself and hope open minded people who know my 34 years as a hobbyist and my contacts and knowledge will allow me to prove myself to them

[Peter_Spaeth]

Thank you for the clarification.

[shelly]

Ken three words always said by new houses. Honest,Loyal and Prompt.
Why now Kenny. We have talked about certs for years and now you show up. Guess you want us to believe really care. Have anything to do with your new venture?

[kengoldin]

I PMed but will reply. As i said in my first message (foolish me) I was unaware of the existance of Net54 until someone saw me at the National and told me I should join. Monday of this week i signed up for an account.

[RobertGT]

I think Ken Goldin has stated his objective clearly and with good intentions, and should be given a chance to promote his new venture. Any auction house that is willing to say "no house bidding" on the record is already starting off with more credibility in my book than many of the multimillion-dollar auction houses already out there that refuse to talk about it, but secretly engage in this deceitful practice. Some other points:

- The Scoreboard name has always held weight in autograph collecting circles, even long after the company folded. The company was legit with autographs. That says something about Goldin. Their certs were easy to photocopy or use to accompany non-Scoreboard merchandise with fraudulent sigs. That's an important distinction.

- Yes Don West used to over-hype worthless stuff you didn't need. So does ever other TV huckster or Bill Mays-esque pitchman trying to sell a glorified blender for $149.99 today. That's what they do. When I used to work the night shift years ago, I came to appreciate the great comedy and energy to be found in the Don West sports shows and the crazy banter with Goldin. I'm sure some people took it seriously and bought this stuff, but to me it was great late-night comedy and nothing more. It really is buyer beware and do your research with any Shop At Home program.

Just my humble opinion.

[wonkaticket]

With respect to Don west and Shop at Home, I believe the last time I was on was around 2002 10 years ago. Yes, SAH had an aggressive sales style, and I was one of 6 main vendors they had. All vendors used the same aggressive sales style as that was their format. That is how it was done at SAH. At the same time, I was on QVC which is well known as a network that has no hype, does not allow values to be stated or claimed, and does not allow a hard sell. I am still occasionally on QVC as I was for their Fenway park 100th anniversary show. If a multi billion $ company like QVC has no issues with me and feels I do a good job for their customers, I am proud of that and I believe that speaks volumes about me.


Ken, no offense don’t blame Shop at Home for your past sales tactics. You know that the way you sold those items was right up there with the Wild West snake oil salesman of old. As for twisting that QVC is in some way endorsing you personally they are not and you should know that.

Ken I sell close to every major retailer in the world QVC included. These folks are business people if they are making money with you they are happy. Them doing business with you is not an endorsement of your integrity or character, but more of an endorsement of a successful and mutual business agreement I think the folks at QVC would agree.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

I'm sure some people took it seriously and bought this stuff, but to me it was great late-night comedy and nothing more. It really is buyer beware and do your research with any Shop At Home program.

Yes that can be said of any purchase buyer beware. I wonder how many old ladies and folks viewed their purchases as comedy…later in life after being tweaked out of hard earned money.

Having someone who has made cash in the past from this line of work isn’t exactly the person I look to earmark significant funds to in my collecting. Just my two cents….


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[glchen]

I only came back to the hobby in early 2010 (after dropping out when I was a kid around 1990/91), so I don't know a lot of Ken's history. However, now and then the last couple of years, Ken has purchased a LOT of cards from me on ebay, so obviously I have a conflict of interest. Saying all of that, Ken has always been very professional and easy to deal with during our interactions. I would say that he deserves a chance to prove himself with his new auction house. If things don't go as he says, people can crucify him then. It looks like from his rules that he is attempting to be as ethical as possible. I do have some concerns with Steiner LOAs (since they have an especially bad rep), but it looks like these would only be for modern autos and not vintage/prewar ones. Good luck, Ken. This crowd is real tough on auction houses and their reps, but usually with only the best intentions.

[Deertick]

Ken, no offense don’t blame Shop at Home for your past sales tactics. You know that the way you sold those items was right up there with the Wild West snake oil salesman of old. As for twisting that QVC is in some way endorsing you personally they are not and you should know that.

Ken I sell close to every major retailer in the world QVC included. These folks are business people if they are making money with you they are happy. Them doing business with you is not an endorsement of your integrity or character, but more of an endorsement of a successful and mutual business agreement I think the folks at QVC would agree.

Cheers,

John

John,
I think the point was that the items sold very successfully @ QVC also, where none of the objectionable behavior from SAH occurred.

[wonkaticket]

John,
I think the point was that the items sold very successfully @ QVC also, where none of the objectionable behavior from SAH occurred.

"If a multi billion $ company like QVC has no issues with me and feels I do a good job for their customers, I am proud of that and I believe that speaks volumes about me."

Not quite Jim M? See above. This is what I was addressing from Ken.

Also so they sold at QVC...does that discount the fact that they may have sold goods with snake oil across the street? I think not.

I go back to an old saying one of my first mentors told me about sales. Just because you put icing on a dog turd doesn’t make it now chocolate cake don’t insult your future customers intelligence, by spinning the angle to suit your needs.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

For me I have no beef with Ken on a personal level. He has all the rights to open a business and change direction. However as I said prior knowing the past sales tactics displayed by Ken I think he has a bit of an uphill battle.

Knowing how I view those past sales practices it’s not somebody I look to do considerable business with in terms of my collecting. I would think that other future buyers and consignors would take this into consideration before consigning significant items or buying significant items.

Perhaps I’m alone and that’s ok with me.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

"What's past is prologue."

[shelly]

I PMed but will reply. As i said in my first message (foolish me) I was unaware of the existance of Net54 until someone saw me at the National and told me I should join. Monday of this week i signed up for an account.
As far as my post on the certificates, and SB...'why now' it isnt a 'why now' it is something I have been doing and fighting helping various law enforcement agenecies and 'hobby policemen' since 1998. I did not go out and post this info, quite frankly because there were on going investigations and still are on going investigations into people committing the forgery crime i mentioned above. However, in light of comments I read here today, i felt that 'today' was a good time to inform...and if a certain agency gets mad at me for doing so, i guess i will deal with those consequences.


Ken if your really involved in a ongoing investigation why would you jeopardize it by revealing it here?
If Wayne Brey had done what you just did, they wouldn't have been an Operation Bullpen and I wouldn't be called a Felon. Everyone would have closed shop and headed for a foreign country, including myself.

[Leon]

Ken if your really involved in a ongoing investigation why would you jeopardize it by revealing it here?
If Wayne Brey had done what you just did, they wouldn't have been an Operation Bullpen and I wouldn't be called a Felon. Everyone would have closed shop and headed for a foreign country, including myself.

If you are in the sports card or memorabilia industry/hobby you should know you are being watched, plain and simple. There are current investigations going on in several different niches in the sports hobby. I don't think that is new news. I am glad they are ongoing too. If you write something in a public forum, such as this, expect it to be read by authorities..If you are doing bad stuff expect the consequences, one way or another.

[botn]

Ken,
Thanks for the call and the posts. I know I said I would reply to you directly but since I started this here I figure it was best to continue it here. I wanted to address a couple of things in your posts.

All of us have done things in our past which we are not particularly proud of so I am not judging you. My posts were trying to point out that your past is going to make it tough for you to be trusted, at least initially. Maybe you have had changes in your life that have made you re-evaluate your past and now you are going to do things the right way. I suppose time will tell. It is easy for you to write off what happened at SAH sitting on piles of cash you made by repeatedly misrepresenting product. Maybe without youtube videos you can forget what you did but what about those who you stuck with worthless junk cards? Many of those people are fathers of sons and daughters, as you are now. You are now coming back to the very hobby you deceived and are asking for us to support you. How do we know if 10 years from now we will not read your posts about your auction company in which you state, “That is how it was done”?

And finally, you wrote “100% of the certs that are REAL and have the name 'ken goldin' have this mark. If it does not have the mark, and has the facsimile of Ken goldin, it is a fake cert. SB did not publicize this fact because it wanted to stay 1 step ahead of the forgers.” If protecting the public is the purpose or intent of issuing LOAs then was it in the public’s best interest to not publicize SB’s had been compromised or was it in your best interest that this information was kept from the public? If you knew a crime was being committed shouldn’t the first step be to stop the crime by alerting everyone?

You can respond if you want to. If Barry Sloate already has your back then I am sure you will do just fine so you need not pay any attention to shelly's, wonka's or my posts.

Thanks,
Greg

[barrysloate]

Greg- I'm not following your reference to me.

[kengoldin]

Greg
thank you for at least taking the time to read everything. I re-read my original post and edited it to reflect a more accurate statement, as the wording may have been poor with respect to SB certs, this is listed below. I have ALWAYS gone out of my way, on ebay, and with hobby dealers (and quite frankly anyone who bothers to call me and ask me a question, or email me) to inform them of what to look for when buying SB product to make sure they buy the real thing, I continue to do so to this day, and will continue to do so in the future.
As far as the auction, i believe what i have stated, the people involved, our product and our policies speak for itself. I am well aware that every auction house is going to be scrutinized till the ends of the earth forever, and am happy that we will be conducting our FIRST auction in 10 weeks, so we can learn from other's mistakes. Rest assured, all parties involved like their lives and are not going to do anything to jeapordize themselves, their careers, or the business.
At this point, I will let everyone come to their own opinion, and let time be the judge. I am available for questions by email or PM, but I think i have had more then my share of the 'public forums' for a while.

"around 92-93 to combat these problems SB started marking its autographed items with a mark that was detectable under UV light. In addition, it began to mark its certs with a hidden water mark as well. 100% of the certs that are REAL and have the name 'ken goldin' have this mark. If it does not have the mark, and has the facsimile of Ken goldin, it is a fake cert. SB did not publicize this fact because it wanted to stay 1 step ahead of the forgers. It told its customers but did not point out where the water mark was, it what it was. I have , however, made dealers and press (example an interview i did with TJ Schwartz 2 years ago where he mentioned that SB certs and items were marked...but did not mention where or how) are of this."

[Peter_Spaeth]

"I am well aware that every auction house is going to be scrutinized till the ends of the earth forever, and am happy that we will be conducting our FIRST auction in 10 weeks, so we can learn from other's mistakes. Rest assured, all parties involved like their lives and are not going to do anything to jeapordize themselves, their careers, or the business."

What do I know, but I would offer people a more positive reason to trust you than that you know you'll be under scrutiny and don't want to get in trouble? Compare this to Al Crisafulli's thread announcing his new business, when he didn't have any explaining to do and a host of folks came on the board to vouch for his reputation and integrity. Just my cynical .02.

[HRBAKER]

A lot of good points have been raised and made in this thread.

History has shown that it is alot more about what you get consigned than what you have or may have done that determines whether people will bid.

[Matthew H]

You guys are brutal. I thought SAH was hilarious.

[botn]

Greg- I'm not following your reference to me.

Post #34, Barry. Not that you had to pick sides in this battle but your post was not one that I would have thought someone with your reputation in the hobby would have made. Like Leon and Scott, it would seem that you have conducted yourself in your many years in the business with a great deal of integrity. I would think that you would have taken a harder stance on some of the sales tactics that were used on SAH.

I agree there is a distinction between ethical and illegal but when either is violated neither one should come without consequences.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Greg, but I didn't take a harder stance because I have never met Ken Goldin and never did any business with him. I do remember hearing stories in the past, but didn't recall the details until I read this thread. I did look at the videos Wonka linked and they were nothing short of appalling. Mr. Goldin has his work cut out to restore the public trust. But as has been pointed out, if his auction has good stuff in it nobody will give a damn about anything except how to win it.

[sportscardpete]

Those videos were hilarious! I can't take this thread seriously.

I'll give the guy the benefit of the doubt; we'll see how the auctions go before I denounce him...

I will say that I'm looking forward to reading some of the auction descriptions...

[edhans]

It is easy for you to write off what happened at SAH sitting on piles of cash you made by repeatedly misrepresenting product. Maybe without youtube videos you can forget what you did but what about those who you stuck with worthless junk cards? Many of those people are fathers of sons and daughters, as you are now. You are now coming back to the very hobby you deceived and are asking for us to support you. How do we know if 10 years from now we will not read your posts about your auction company in which you state, “That is how it was done”?

+1

I don't know you, Ken, and have no personal grievance with you, since I wasn't niave enough to buy the garbage you hawked on SAH. Even though no crime was committed, what took place there was nothing short of theft. How could you have allowed your name to be used in connection with this venture? I don't see how the hobby can sweep your past under the rug and pretend it never happened. It seems to me that you still have a great deal of apologizing to do, especially to those people who squandered thousands of dollars on worthless crap, in part, perhaps, because you endorsed it.

[calvindog]

Damn, tough room -- tougher on Ken than ever on Mastro and Allen -- guys who have been indicted for ripping off every one on this forum. Gee, wonder why that is?

Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here.

[wolf441]

Will Don West of Shop at Home fame be making a cameo appearance? That was some classic late-night TV:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-K7A1QGtuUU

Good luck with your auction!

I miss the Don West SAH appearances! My kids still do the imitations:

"YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE MCGWIRE ROOKIE!! YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE GRIFFEY JR ROOKIE!!!"

Best of luck with the auctions.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

Damn, tough room -- tougher on Ken than ever on Mastro and Allen -- guys who have been indicted for ripping off every one on this forum. Gee, wonder why that is?

Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here.
--

[calvindog]

Ken has gotten more criticism on this one thread than Mastro and Doug have in the past five years (excluding from me of course). You can thrown in Goodwin and JP too with Mastro and Doug. Are there really no posters here who made money with Ken and want to do all they can to shut up the criticism of him? Comeon, great guys! Step it up!

[Kenny Cole]

Jeff,

IMO, the difference is in the ugly videos. A picture's worth a thousand words and all that stuff.

[Rich Klein]

In a truly ironic moment, I just got a facebook request from Ken Goldin. I did accept BTW. I'm expecting a linked-in message next

Rich

[calvindog]

Jeff,

IMO, the difference is in the ugly videos. A picture's worth a thousand words and all that stuff.

LOLOL fair enough.

[Matthew H]

I don't really agree with the criticism here. Many hobby shops/dealers were hyping the same crap back then. People thought it had value, and it certainly wasn't cheaper elsewhere.

What about Beckett starting a grading offshoot bccg just to get in on the action? Do they get a pass too? These guys were selling $500 "book value" for $70, what the heck is wrong with that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

neat pic from the website

[David R]

For me I have no beef with Ken on a personal level. He has all the rights to open a business and change direction. However as I said prior knowing the past sales tactics displayed by Ken I think he has a bit of an uphill battle.

Knowing how I view those past sales practices it’s not somebody I look to do considerable business with in terms of my collecting. I would think that other future buyers and consignors would take this into consideration before consigning significant items or buying significant items.

Perhaps I’m alone and that’s ok with me.

Cheers,

John

+1

[cobblove]

This has been an intersting read.
The only way I relate to this was when I was 12 years old and I collected vintage cards at the time. It was when I first got more into the old stuff. Well I used to watch the Home S net and would always laugh at the prices and thought only an idiot would buy that stuff. Well the day came where my loving grandma bought me some kind of box that guaranteed a Mickey Mantle my grandma said. I knew where she got the box from but I didnt want to be rude and say you got ripped off. I thanked her and took it home. It had a mantle alright. A reprint. Whooopiee. It just akes me thinking someone took her for 90.00 on a pile of junk. She bought it because she knew I collected cards. It just gives me a sick feeling in my stomach thinking about it. I for one will not bid at this auction house because of that feeling.

[drc]

I think this thread will cause more people to check out the auction, so I don't per sey think it's bad for them.

The best way to overcome the criticism is to run good auctions.

[RobertGT]

I miss the Don West SAH appearances! My kids still do the imitations:

"YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE MCGWIRE ROOKIE!! YOU'RE GUNNA GET THE GRIFFEY JR !"

Steve

GEM MINT 10!!! Lol

I too think people are taking this way too seriously. We can all point to instances where we were overcharged, sold overhyped goods or bit our tongues when a loved one bought us a piece of crap for Christmas.

I spent last weekend at the National, spending oh, I don't know, maybe 90 percent of my time looking at cards worth $100 with price tags of $275, listening to dealers tell me a common t206 with a crease through the face is worth $75 and others becoming flabbergasted when I told them their cards sell for about 75 percent less on eBay. A common response was "I can't sell at eBay prices. You know how much it costs to set up here? I have overhead!"

Fair enough. Guess what? Ken Goldin had and will have overhead.

[Mulhall777]

Here is a classic link for a nice laugh! Enjoy...

http://www.donwest.org/video.php?id=10

PS...Feel free to let us know what line these guys shoveled to people that made you laugh the most.

For me it's the beginning...

"The Holy Grail of Baseball Cards...*suspense* The T206 Honus Wagner, Do You Want To Own One?!?! *huge drama and suspense*

[danski496]

My momma always told me if I didn't have anything nice to say then I shouldn't say it. Interesting thread though. BTW, I still have a huge box of real nice graded cards my bought me from SAH, I figured I'd hold onto it just in case I ran out of firewood.

[keithsky]

I don't know Ken Golding but people accussing him of selling over priced cards isn't any different than people selling PSA, Beckett or SGC cards. If you were selling a card not slabbed by these companies it would be far less than a slabbed card so your first thought is i'll send it to them to get it slabbed to make more money on it. Same thing he did. You know a Mantle rookie not slabbed is no where near a slabbed PSA card.

[barrysloate]

The issue wasn't that he was selling overpriced cards, it's that the cards were essentially worthless. If you want to pay $100 for a $50 card, that's fine and it's certainly not unusual. But would anybody want to pay $50 for cards that were worth pennies? I don't think anybody would say that is a fair transaction.

[tothrk]

I agree with Barry. He was pushing mass produced cards which were worth pennies at their peak. He wasn't selling overpriced Mantles and Clemente's. He was basically selling trash. In the end, I'm not sure any of it matters because if he gets premium consignments everyone will bid in his auctions no matter what they think he did or is doing.

[FirstYearCards]

As a collector for 20+ years, I've dealt with good and bad. Simplest way to deal with a situation like this: If you see a deal, go for it. If you fear a scam, leave well enough alone and move on.

[calvindog]

The issue wasn't that he was selling overpriced cards, it's that the cards were essentially worthless. If you want to pay $100 for a $50 card, that's fine and it's certainly not unusual. But would anybody want to pay $50 for cards that were worth pennies? I don't think anybody would say that is a fair transaction.

Why were they worth pennies? If people were paying $100 for the cards than it seems like they were worth $100 at the time. If he was shill bidding or altering the cards to get them into higher graded holders your argument would have more merit. We have enough garbage running auction houses that perhaps before we go after the guys who simply engage in massive puffery we should focus on the guys who break federal and state laws while running their auctions. By the way, I'm not certain the Shamwow is worth $19.99 either -- but if someone is willing to pay for it because the guy hawking them is persuasive then so be it.

Oh and a disclaimer: I don't know anyone associated with Goldin Auctions, I've never consigned with him, partnered with him, or given him cards and watched with delight as he shill bid the cards through the stratosphere.

[glynparson]

It was around 1999-2000. I received a phone call from a woman in the Lebanon PA area. Her husband has just passed away from cancer and all he left her was this very valuable baseball card collection. When I get to the house, I brought my father with me to help go through it, she takes us to the basement to see the collection. When I get there I am horrified. It is all very beat up ugly off centered new cards all in 10 holders. The woman then explains to us how her husband found out he was dying of cancer, he didn't tell anyone at first. they had little money and No life insurance. They did have good credit, and he eventually told his wife he was dying of cancer but he had provided for her and their daughter. He got several credit cards and maxed them out buying that overhyped crap off of TV from Mr Goldin and Solomon Cramer. It was so hard explaining to this woman that her sick desperate husband, who was trying to give his family a future, had actually wasted tens of thousands of dollars they did not have. The woman was crying hysterically she was telling us how she would lose her home because she needed money from these cards. He had spent 20000+ and I would not have given her $2000 for it all and I would have paid her more than it was worth to try and help her. So no, he will not get a second chance from me, I don't care if he gets every white whale on my want list. I hope is has turned a new leaf but until past since are acknowledge a little more honestly and openly, and attempted to be rectified when possible, I will avoid Goldin auctions and be openly critical of his past, and I also wish they would not be an advertiser and please don't send me any email blasts about upcoming auctions as I don't care.

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff did you change your mind overnight? Previously you said "Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here."

To your point that something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, philosophically I would like to agree with that free market view, but as Glyn's story illustrates, in some instances it just doesn't comport with reality or take into account just how easy it is to take advantage of vulnerable and uninformed people. I think what SAH did is well over the line ethically.

[barrysloate]

Jeff didn't change his mind Peter, he just likes to rag on me.

[calvindog]

Jeff did you change your mind overnight? Previously you said "Of course, I agree with the criticism that's been laid out here."



Peter, no, didn't change my mind at all -- I do agree with the criticism, the videos are ridiculous. But I'm just surprised at the venom on this thread compared to how Mastro and Doug Allen (and others) were dealt with who either have been indicted for fraud or whose empirical auction results are patently, consistently absurd.

And Barry, you need to relax, maybe you're working too hard.

[barrysloate]

delete

[calvindog]

Less potty mouth, more work will improve your disposition.

[hammer]

If you are all happy with Hucksters in this hobby do not complain if you get burned by them. A Carnival atmosphere is not what I was hopeing this hobby would turn out to be. With that said when you sweep up the floor and put the dirt under the rug pretty soon you will have to throw it out after so much dirt.

[barrysloate]

delete

[calvindog]

Barry, I didn't jump on you at all on this thread -- until you accused me of purposely 'ragging' on you after I made a valid point. You're thin-skinned. As for how you conduct your life, I don't give a damn. I'm surely paying for it but I still don't give a damn. Have a good day doing...nothing.

[travrosty]

it was more than puffery, the cat was already out of the bag that the new stuff was way overproduced and collectors were leaving the market, and new collectors werent coming in and that the market was way oversaturated.


The people who didnt know this - the casual non-collector or weekend investor, got taken in.

The question that people need to ask is "did ken know it?", yes i believe he did, and did he sell it anyway pumping it up as the investment of the century.
"yes"

[barrysloate]

Calvindog is now on my ignore list. I no longer have to read his posts. Didn't have much worthwhile to say at that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

People are forgiving of people who admit their mistakes. If Ken had come on and said, yes, I was wrong, I really regret what I did back then, I accept responsibility and I have changed, I think most of us would accept that.

But his initial posts hyping his new venture didn't say anything at all about past issues (did he think people would not remember SAH?), and when he realized he had to address it, his initial comment was to use the Clintonesque passive voice: "That's how it was done."

What's more, his pitch for why we should trust him was that he realizes he is under scrutiny and couldn't get away with anything, and values his life too much to try. Is that supposed to instill confidence?

[calvindog]

Calvindog is now on my ignore list. I know longer have to read his posts. Didn't have much worthwhile to say at that.

Enjoy your retirement or whatever it is.

[teetwoohsix]

It was around 1999-2000. I received a phone call from a woman in the Lebanon PA area. Her husband has just passed away from cancer and all he left her was this very valuable baseball card collection. When I get to the house, I brought my father with me to help go through it, she takes us to the basement to see the collection. When I get there I am horrified. It is all very beat up ugly off centered new cards all in 10 holders. The woman then explains to us how her husband found out he was dying of cancer, he didn't tell anyone at first. they had little money and No life insurance. They did have good credit, and he eventually told his wife he was dying of cancer but he had provided for her and their daughter. He got several credit cards and maxed them out buying that overhyped crap off of TV from Mr Goldin and Solomon Cramer. It was so hard explaining to this woman that her sick desperate husband, who was trying to give his family a future, had actually wasted tens of thousands of dollars they did not have. The woman was crying hysterically she was telling us how she would lose her home because she needed money from these cards. He had spent 20000+ and I would not have given her $2000 for it all and I would have paid her more than it was worth to try and help her. So no, he will not get a second chance from me, I don't care if he gets every white whale on my want list. I hope is has turned a new leaf but until past since are acknowledge a little more honestly and openly, and attempted to be rectified when possible, I will avoid Goldin auctions and be openly critical of his past, and I also wish they would not be an advertiser and please don't send me any email blasts about upcoming auctions as I don't care.

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

This is a horrible story, it made me sad to read it.

Did anyone ever get the real T206 Wagner (that was hyped in the video)?

Sincerely, Clayton

[calvindog]

People are forgiving of people who admit their mistakes. If Ken had come on and said, yes, I was wrong, I really regret what I did back then, I accept responsibility and I have changed, I think most of us would accept that.

But his initial posts hyping his new venture didn't say anything at all about past issues (did he think people would not remember SAH?), and when he realized he had to address it, his initial comment was to use the Clintonesque passive voice: "That's how it was done."

What's more, his pitch for why we should trust him was that he realizes he is under scrutiny and couldn't get away with anything, and values his life too much to try. Is that supposed to instill confidence?

Peter, that's all fair. But you forget the hobby we're in. :)

[calvindog]

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

Glyn, I can't disagree with that. Kind of hard to rationalize this in any other way. I think I'm just so used to seeing so much fraud in the hobby that boorish selling and borderline behavior just needs to get to the back of the line of problems, unfortunately. But there's no good excuse for it, you're right.

[HRBAKER]

It all comes down to whether he can get quality consignments in an already crowded field. If he can history has shown that in this hobby his past will have little bearing on whether people will bid.

[Matthew H]

Over-hyped and puffery? You mean like high grade commons in TPG holders? Or are you referring to values based on shilled or house bid auctions?

I think Jeff is 100% correct here. You've got people slinging mud from every angle. Go look at the first threads on the mastro fiasco. Pretty much everyone but jeff was blaming the reporter who broke the story.

I know, the stories of grandma's buying from ken are really sad. My dad bought some stuff for me... All very very sad.

What about the fact that the much hobby is over hyped? Caused by a mixture of TPG and Auction shilling?

Hasn't everyone read the interview where Dick Towel stated that he's worked on 15,000-18,000 cards? Many Many Many Mantle rookies? He also said that there are many other people who are good at certain aspects of what he does: Removing stains, removing wrinkles or creases for $30 per card!!?

All this info out there and you still have people discussing that PSA 5 with a wrinkle... Don't worry, that wrinkle will be gone over time.

But forget all that. Lets make sure we don't bid on auctions by those hilarious guys who used to sell that crap on tv.

[tinkereversandme]

I agree with Wonka ticket throughout. I remember watching the hocking of products that were far less superior to all the hype with promises of wealth and furture investment while all the while he must have known that every order processed that the customer was being duped. Obnoxious proclamations and hype that made me sick to my stomach. I will not be supporting this new venture but I'm sure many will so what does it matter what one man thinks.

Regards,

Larry

[bijoem]

I'm not with you on this point.

I don't think people's willingness to pay is a good measure of something's worth (considering the willingness is guided by misleading sales tactics or puffery as you call it).

If I sell you fool's gold and tell you it is real gold.... and you and enough people buy it.... does that mean fool's gold value is the same as real gold?



Why were they worth pennies? If people were paying $100 for the cards than it seems like they were worth $100 at the time. If he was shill bidding or altering the cards to get them into higher graded holders your argument would have more merit. We have enough garbage running auction houses that perhaps before we go after the guys who simply engage in massive puffery we should focus on the guys who break federal and state laws while running their auctions. By the way, I'm not certain the Shamwow is worth $19.99 either -- but if someone is willing to pay for it because the guy hawking them is persuasive then so be it.

Oh and a disclaimer: I don't know anyone associated with Goldin Auctions, I've never consigned with him, partnered with him, or given him cards and watched with delight as he shill bid the cards through the stratosphere.

[cmcclelland]

Delete

[botn]

Why were they worth pennies? If people were paying $100 for the cards than it seems like they were worth $100 at the time. If he was shill bidding or altering the cards to get them into higher graded holders your argument would have more merit. We have enough garbage running auction houses that perhaps before we go after the guys who simply engage in massive puffery we should focus on the guys who break federal and state laws while running their auctions. By the way, I'm not certain the Shamwow is worth $19.99 either -- but if someone is willing to pay for it because the guy hawking them is persuasive then so be it.

Oh and a disclaimer: I don't know anyone associated with Goldin Auctions, I've never consigned with him, partnered with him, or given him cards and watched with delight as he shill bid the cards through the stratosphere.

Sorry I'm late but I am confused, Jeff. For 2 days you have telling me privately something completely different. :confused: Did Kenny just give pay you a retainer or has my reading comprehension dropped...even more? I have never seen a guy on all 3 sides of a fence before. You are a wizard!!!!

[Mulhall777]

i am deleting the message...

[Mulhall777]

i am deleting the message

[glchen]

First, the disclaimer, as in my last post on this thread, I have sold cards to Ken before, so I am not a completely unbiased poster. I have always felt that our dealings were very fair and professional. However, take this and my opinions on this as it is.

That story from Glyn is pretty bad. I'm not saying that I'm unsympathetic to the man and his wife. It's a horrible story. You don't wish that on anybody. However, did Ken know that the man was dying of cancer and was spending his life savings on cards when this was going down? I assume he did not. He was just a face on TV, doing his job of trying to sell cards. A lot of dealers sell over-priced cards. It could be on TV (like Ken did), it could be at card shows like the National, and it could be on ebay with overpriced BINs. If the same person spent his money on seriously over-priced BIN's from Levi and 707 after watching news on his TV about the Black Swamp find, would it be Levi's fault on what happened to his family? Some people are justifiable shocked at Levi's high prices, but others counter that he is a nice guy and ships quickly with good service. OKAY...

The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell. However, the point I want to bring up here is that you have to be knowledgeable about this hobby if you buy anything of considerable worth. This is why this forum has been so great, because there are a lot of people on this board who are very knowledgeable with many, many years in the hobby and are very willing to dispense it. You have to have an idea of what you are doing, or else there is a very good chance that you are going to get creamed. Knowledge is absolutely vital in this hobby whether it is which TPG's are reputable, how to tell if a raw card is authentic, use VCP and past sales for your pricing data rather than SMR or Beckett, and so forth. Again for some people, this is only a hobby and they do not care what their returns are or if they get any money back at all. However, if you have or are planning to put any significant sums of money into this hobby, you better try to learn as much as possible.

Being knowledgeable brings me up to another story about jewelry, which is also often sold on TV. My mother-in-law is an avid fan of the jewelry channel to my chagrin. This brings me to a story about buying diamonds. When I was looking into purchasing an engagement ring for my soon-to-be wife, I really researched it. I bought a book on how to buy diamonds, and read many, many articles with helpful advice about it on the internet. Therefore, when I finally purchased the ring, I felt that I really knew what I was doing and bought the best ring and diamond for the price I could afford. This is what knowledge can give you. When my mother-in-law showed me a small diamond ring (~1 carat) that she purchased, I was shocked at the price that she spent on such a poor quality diamond. The color, clarity, and cut were all bad, and the dealer smoked her because she was so focused on the size of the diamond for the price. You can't really say it all the dealer's fault. When you walk into a jewelry store at your mall, this is what you see every day. People paying too much for poor quality diamonds.

People just need to use their own knowledge and their own judgment on things that they buy. I personally think some of the prices that people paid for the Dimtiri Young PSA 10's are absolutely nuts. Did those people get duped? Did the people who bought the hype of the Strasburg and Jeremy Lin cards get duped? Buying during the 80s-90s bubble? Insert cards? As did many others, I got killed buying cards during that 80s-90s bubble and became very disillusioned for a time and dropped out of the hobby. However, who knew these guys were printing so many cards? I guess all of during that era should have known, but were just deceiving ourselves as we were dreaming about our retirement savings already. At some point, you really have to decide for yourself if the card is really worth the price the dealer is selling it for. There was a thread in the Memorabilia section about the crazy prices people were paying for items from Heritage's recent Live auction such as the 1969 Topps Basketball set. However, other posters defended the prices as some people had the means to pay the prices, so that meant the prices were fair. If anyone was investing their life savings, I really hope that they knew what they were doing.

I believed Ken already addressed the card slabbing issue by saying he wasn't involved in that aspect of it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. However, if he had just sold the cards raw, but said they were gem mint like many raw dealers do, would that have made a difference?

Again, it is not like Ken is someone like Brian Dwyer with a "sterling" reputation. He has some work to do, and I think he's admitted this already. Let's just see how his first auction runs and go from there. Besides having stuff I want, the biggest thing that I want from an auction house is no shilling, including house bids or safety bids. That is, I want real auctions where the true market price of the item is set. I would like to see reasonable shipping charges and that my winnings are shipped fairly quickly after payment. Accepting paypal or credit cards would be very nice also, along with reasonable buyer's fee. I would also want reasonable recourse if the item when delivered did not match the auction description. Good luck, Ken.

[calvindog]

Sorry I'm late but I am confused, Jeff. For 2 days you have telling me privately something completely different. :confused: Did Kenny just give pay you a retainer or has my reading comprehension dropped...even more? I have never seen a guy on all 3 sides of a fence before. You are a wizard!!!!

That's not true at all. I made it very clear that I think the videos, the hawking of the crap was bad -- and I told you that your criticism was welcomed and valid. I'm just disappointed in the difference in the board reaction to Ken compared with Mastro, Allen, etc., guys who stole from everyone HERE by using fraudulent means which rose to the level of violations of federal criminal law. The response for the past seven years and even following their indictment and the revelation of Bill's apparent cooperation with the Feds has been tepid at best for reasons you personally know: that board members here made money with Mastro as they turned a blind eye to the fraud as their consignments went through the roof. And while Ken deserves the criticism it just strikes me as a bit bizarre that suddenly the pitch forks and torches are out and while his actions are borderline, I don't see them nearly rising to the level of what would be needed to indict him for mail or wire fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[Ladder7]

Hey, lay off Barry. He wasn't giving an endorsement.

Incidentally, Im not buying any of his epiphany BS. But, no doubt, there will be a "Show your Goldin winnings" thread... Yep Net54, we'll get this hobby cleaned up yet! :rolleyes:

[Peter_Spaeth]

"The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell."

The Nuremberg defense applied to baseball cards. Beautiful.

[calvindog]

LOL ok that was a good one. Peter, I wouldn't want you to not get the appropriate kudos for that gold.

But who can forget the days when I'd point out the hilarious price disparities on cards of identical issue and grade of Goodwin sales compared to eBay and every other auction house? $309, $312, $305, $2986, $316 -- and all I'd get back was "Goodwin is a great guy, shut your mouth."

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[calvindog]

Lol

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps any auction house that engaged in shill bidding should offer in its defense, "That's how it was done." It seems to resonate with some people. We can call it the "Goldin defense."

[calvindog]

Or the defense of "I told you all what the ceiling bids were and allowed you to shill your own auctions -- but I never hit the bid button myself, what do you want from me?"

That's an oldie but a Goodie.

[Buythatcard]

First, the disclaimer, as in my last post on this thread, I have sold cards to Ken before, so I am not a completely unbiased poster. I have always felt that our dealings were very fair and professional. However, take this and my opinions on this as it is.

That story from Glyn is pretty bad. I'm not saying that I'm unsympathetic to the man and his wife. It's a horrible story. You don't wish that on anybody. However, did Ken know that the man was dying of cancer and was spending his life savings on cards when this was going down? I assume he did not. He was just a face on TV, doing his job of trying to sell cards. A lot of dealers sell over-priced cards. It could be on TV (like Ken did), it could be at card shows like the National, and it could be on ebay with overpriced BINs. If the same person spent his money on seriously over-priced BIN's from Levi and 707 after watching news on his TV about the Black Swamp find, would it be Levi's fault on what happened to his family? Some people are justifiable shocked at Levi's high prices, but others counter that he is a nice guy and ships quickly with good service. OKAY...

The argument will be that Levi did not hype his cards like Ken did or promise huge returns. I think Ken already addressed some of this in his earlier 4 posts, which basically came down to this is how Shop At Home operates for all of the things they sell. However, the point I want to bring up here is that you have to be knowledgeable about this hobby if you buy anything of considerable worth. This is why this forum has been so great, because there are a lot of people on this board who are very knowledgeable with many, many years in the hobby and are very willing to dispense it. You have to have an idea of what you are doing, or else there is a very good chance that you are going to get creamed. Knowledge is absolutely vital in this hobby whether it is which TPG's are reputable, how to tell if a raw card is authentic, use VCP and past sales for your pricing data rather than SMR or Beckett, and so forth. Again for some people, this is only a hobby and they do not care what their returns are or if they get any money back at all. However, if you have or are planning to put any significant sums of money into this hobby, you better try to learn as much as possible.

Being knowledgeable brings me up to another story about jewelry, which is also often sold on TV. My mother-in-law is an avid fan of the jewelry channel to my chagrin. This brings me to a story about buying diamonds. When I was looking into purchasing an engagement ring for my soon-to-be wife, I really researched it. I bought a book on how to buy diamonds, and read many, many articles with helpful advice about it on the internet. Therefore, when I finally purchased the ring, I felt that I really knew what I was doing and bought the best ring and diamond for the price I could afford. This is what knowledge can give you. When my mother-in-law showed me a small diamond ring (~1 carat) that she purchased, I was shocked at the price that she spent on such a poor quality diamond. The color, clarity, and cut were all bad, and the dealer smoked her because she was so focused on the size of the diamond for the price. You can't really say it all the dealer's fault. When you walk into a jewelry store at your mall, this is what you see every day. People paying too much for poor quality diamonds.

People just need to use their own knowledge and their own judgment on things that they buy. I personally think some of the prices that people paid for the Dimtiri Young PSA 10's are absolutely nuts. Did those people get duped? Did the people who bought the hype of the Strasburg and Jeremy Lin cards get duped? Buying during the 80s-90s bubble? Insert cards? As did many others, I got killed buying cards during that 80s-90s bubble and became very disillusioned for a time and dropped out of the hobby. However, who knew these guys were printing so many cards? I guess all of during that era should have known, but were just deceiving ourselves as we were dreaming about our retirement savings already. At some point, you really have to decide for yourself if the card is really worth the price the dealer is selling it for. There was a thread in the Memorabilia section about the crazy prices people were paying for items from Heritage's recent Live auction such as the 1969 Topps Basketball set. However, other posters defended the prices as some people had the means to pay the prices, so that meant the prices were fair. If anyone was investing their life savings, I really hope that they knew what they were doing.

I believed Ken already addressed the card slabbing issue by saying he wasn't involved in that aspect of it. If I'm wrong, please correct me. However, if he had just sold the cards raw, but said they were gem mint like many raw dealers do, would that have made a difference?

Again, it is not like Ken is someone like Brian Dwyer with a "sterling" reputation. He has some work to do, and I think he's admitted this already. Let's just see how his first auction runs and go from there. Besides having stuff I want, the biggest thing that I want from an auction house is no shilling, including house bids or safety bids. That is, I want real auctions where the true market price of the item is set. I would like to see reasonable shipping charges and that my winnings are shipped fairly quickly after payment. Accepting paypal or credit cards would be very nice also, along with reasonable buyer's fee. I would also want reasonable recourse if the item when delivered did not match the auction description. Good luck, Ken.

+1
I agree with Gary.

[teetwoohsix]

Due to the request to remove/edit my other post by Mr.Goldin, I decided to remove this post as well.

[edhans]

Gary,
With all due respect, surely we must differentiate between an educated collector paying Levi 10 or 20 percent over "book" for a card they need or an "investor" taking a chance on rookie cards of modern players and the deliberate misleading of unwitting and gullible newbies to sell junk at many multiples of it's actual value. Ken obviously knew that SAH was using gross exagerations and distortions, if nothing worse, to cheat people out of millions, as Glyn's horror story above illustrates. Yes, consumers do have a duty to educate themselves somewhat on what they purchase , but "that's the way it was done" just doesn't wash here. I just don't see how the hobby can give him a pass on this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ed, the hobby would give virtually anyone a pass if he had something on their wantlist. And find a way to justify it.

[calvindog]

Or if they were conspiring with the auction house to shill up their consignments.

[brickyardkennedy]

Gary,
With all due respect, surely we must differentiate between an educated collector paying Levi 10 or 20 percent over "book" for a card they need or an "investor" taking a chance on rookie cards of modern players and the deliberate misleading of unwitting and gullible newbies to sell junk at many multiples of it's actual value. Ken obviously knew that SAH was using gross exagerations and distortions, if nothing worse, to cheat people out of millions, as Glyn's horror story above illustrates. Yes, consumers do have a duty to educate themselves somewhat on what they purchase , but "that's the way it was done" just doesn't wash here. I just don't see how the hobby can give him a pass on this one.

Exactly.

[DJR]

I have a similar story to Glyn's but with a factor of minimum 10x - 15x. A friend from high school tracked me down me to sell her father's collection, while he was on his death bed, being foreclosed on with medical expenses piling up. Most items were purchased from SAH while he was in a diminished capacity. Many biggest autographs (Mantle, DiMaggio, etc.) were not even authentic according the PSA/DNA (but I could immediately tell) and cards a joke worth pennies on the dollar. I am not trying to fuel the fire but would question the business acumen and honesty of anyone involved with SAH. Either become a whistle blower, leave or enable. I felt so bad for my friend's family and father, I set up at a card show, sold everything that did not sell on eBay, did not charge her anything besides eBay / Paypal fees and refused compensation. It was rewarding helping a friend find some comfort in a time of need and TRIED to right the wrong. Can you imagine how hard it was for me to explain what transpired?

Modified after receiving (5 or 6) 'threatening' emails including these gems. I think discovery would be enlightening possibly turning a civil matter into criminal. I also find it implausible someone could sell tens of million of autos and NEVER be accused of selling a fake auto!

I think Wyclef summed it up quite prophetically, ''Some live for the bill, some kill for the bill, she/he wined for the bill, grind for the bill, some steal for the bill; if they got to pay the bill, singin' dollar, dollar bill, y'all''

''your thread below is false. I have never sold , nor have i ever been accused of selling a fake autograph on SAH or anywhere else. I in fact have worked for 10 years with with authorities to go after forgers with US attorney and law enforcement offficials.. There were 6-8 OTHER vendors of SAH , and I could not control or know what product they sold, in fact they were competitors. Just because someone bought an auto turned out to be not authentic, does NOT mean I was the vendor, as I was not. I was well known for having Mantle, Dimaggio, and all the big names under contract, and quite frankly had more autographs then I could possibly move. I have posted on this subject in #46 as well as msg #140.
I do not wish to contant the moderator, or my attorney regarding your message...but sir it is false and can be considered slander. I strongly suggest you delete or edit it out to say someone bought a bad autograph but you do NOT know who the vendor was, and take out the 'Kenny' comment. If you wish to discuss this, you may email me at ken@goldinauctions.com and give me your contact #.
As long as the post is deleted or edited to reflect the facts, I will consider the matter closed
regards''

''Sirt
I prefer to not get into a pointless argument with you
The message was written in a way to imply I sold fake autographs on Sah .
I am available to discuss this via ofemail or phone call with you. I am happy to listen to our story, but want my side to be heard as well. I would appreciate it if you simply edited the message without posting what I thought was a private message to you. I am still working with authorities and would not want that posted as it could jeopardize ongoing investigations..
Please edit my post to you, and I am happy to call you or have you call me.
We are close to getting a group of forgers and at is why I did not post that reply publicly.
I hope you find it within yourself and edit the message so I am not being accused ( the thanks Kenny) comment at end...and remove the fact you got an email from me. I seriously do to want to jeopardize a current case and hope ou will understand. If ou email me. Phone number I will call you from my cell so ou hve mine. Well
Thank ou''

P.S. Your reading comprehension and grammar Kenny are as questionable as your ethical decisions. For the record, I never accused you of selling fake autos. However, if you perform a Google search, you will find plenty of others that do and accuse you of a litany of other indiscretions.

[buymycards]

Gary, I don't like to get involved in these arguments, but I can't believe the way you can justify the Shop at Home issue. You said "that is way that Shop at Home operates". So that makes is OK? Wow, that is just great.

Plus, Shop at Home wasn't marketing these cards to the hobby. These shows were targeted toward people who were at home watching tv. The lies and exaggerations were marketed to people with little knowledge of the hobby, and they believed Ken's lies. Anyone who was involved with the hobby knew enough to stay away from these cards.

Just because Ken has been a great customer of yours doesn't mean that you should condone his unethical behavior.

[botn]

That's not true at all. I made it very clear that I think the videos, the hawking of the crap was bad -- and I told you that your criticism was welcomed and valid. I'm just disappointed in the difference in the board reaction to Ken compared with Mastro, Allen, etc., guys who stole from everyone HERE by using fraudulent means which rose to the level of violations of federal criminal law. The response for the past seven years and even following their indictment and the revelation of Bill's apparent cooperation with the Feds has been tepid at best for reasons you personally know: that board members here made money with Mastro as they turned a blind eye to the fraud as their consignments went through the roof. And while Ken deserves the criticism it just strikes me as a bit bizarre that suddenly the pitch forks and torches are out and while his actions are borderline, I don't see them nearly rising to the level of what would be needed to indict him for mail or wire fraud.

Jeff, none of us are as close to the Mastro indictment as you are. You have been privy to far more evidence than we have. You are also representing numerous people who are or were involved to varying degree.

And I really could not disagree with you more about this absurd statement, "The response for the past seven years and even following their indictment and the revelation of Bill's apparent cooperation with the Feds has been tepid at best for reasons you personally know: that board members here made money with Mastro as they turned a blind eye to the fraud as their consignments went through the roof." Are you seriously saying that everyone who has been less vocal than you is doing so because we all got fat off of our consignments with Mastro and Legendary? You really should think again.

I am not suggesting that Goldin be indicted for misleading buyers into forking over $5,000 for each 1985 Nike Jordan PRO 10, as an example, but at least the victims who were shilled end up with an item they know was worth something close to what they ended up paying. Assuming their purchases were not influenced by misrepresentation by the house or they are astute buyers, they also end up with something that can appreciate.

This thread should not really be about which unethical activity is worse. You should start your own poll thread if you want to go there and if you do don't forget to add trimming up cards and either placing them in graded holders or getting them into graded holders, as options.

[kengoldin]

To comment further and a last time on the SAH stuff. I first called into SAH in 1995 I believe. I last called in 2002. I, like many, thought Don West was funny and almost thought he was putting on an act, which to a degree he was. I was told that is what their audience liked, they were the ante-QVC, which is a soft, non value sell. I imagine while I was doing it I did not take it seriously enough. At the time it was kind of like a comedy show, it was parodied often on SNL, as well as Opie and Anthony show. In the 11 years since I have called into SAH, I have been divorced, remarried, had 2 daughters, and found my love again for what started me in this hobby when I was 11 years old, vintage cards and vintage memorabilia. I started by traveling to shows, buying and selling with my father, Paul Goldin, who many of you knew if you were around in the 1970s and 80s. I still have a vast collection and have been building on it the past 10 years . Yes, the new stuff for the most part is crap that will not be worth much in the future.
Yes, SAH was over the top. Yes, SAH in the majority of instances sold product for way too much money (keep in mind as a retailer however, they sold product for double what they paid, meaning the vendor got ½ the amount, or LESS then the price you saw on the screen). I wish I could say it wasn’t part of my past, but it is. I apologize for using the words ‘that’s how it was done’ and I have edited that out almost immediately out of the post. I am sorry for the word choice of my original posting, and as stated, as someone who understood the business very well, I was doing well enough by just selling to the soft cell QVC. I should never have stooped to the hard sell SAH method of doing business and I am sorry it happened. I know many hobbyist hated those shows, and I know many people loved them. I know the dealers that were providing me with product loved me. The people that hated the shows have always been the most vocal…and relentless. My point in the earlier post about mentioning QVC was only to point out that as an individual, I was able to adapt my ‘pitch’ to the network. One wanted a high energy, over the top performance, the other wanted an informative, no hype, no value driven soft sell. In hindsight I should have let SAH sell the product and not participate and wish I did not. At this point, when I turn 60 , 70 and even 80 to some I will always be known as the guy who used to call into SAH.
Hopefully to many of you I will not be remembered that way, to some I will, no matter what good I did in the past and do in the future. I will have to live with that. Just like I had to live with losing $1 million plus on Mark Mcgwire product (most of which I still have in inventory) because I did invest in the product I sold, and did get killed when he fell off the map and later had steroid controversy. To address one last question that was raised, on post 48 I outlined my departure from SB in 1997, as well as fact that I was not with the company when redemptions were due (including the Wagner card) so I cannot answer as to the outcome that John White CEO of SB did with the card. The company had run a similar promotion with a 52 topps mantle when I was there in 1996 and everyone got their cards, including the 52 topps Mantle that was given away. Also, with regards to authenticity question raised just above this post, I refer you back to my post #46. And I will repeat, there were 6-8 vendors to SAH…I just happen to be the most well known. With respect to autographs I constantly emailed SAH that they need to be careful who they purchased autos from, as they were buying from people who were not experts and not providing good certs…I purchased several items from them with ‘Howards sports collectibles’ certs to see what customers were getting, and then would send them to SAH management telling them I did not think it was real. . Again, all I ask is fairness. If I was not the vendor who sold a given product, I cannot take blame for that product. Just because it was sold on SAH does NOT mean the company I worked for was the vendor.
I wish the best of luck and collecting to all of you, even the negative posters, and hope at some point in time in the future you will look at Ken Goldin as the person who brought athletes to the masses, the guy who signed Shaq exclusively, and hopefully, the guy who always delivers great auctions and great products. I am available by PM or email if I can help any dealer or collector in any way, but believe my days of posting and reading this is over.

[calvindog]

Greg, I'm not suggesting everyone should have been as vocal as me regarding Mastro, Allen and Goodwin -- I'm saying many people tried to stop the criticism because of their great financial dealings with those three and others with suspect auction results. And you know this to be true.

And there should be no defense of shilled auctions. Just because someone only was ripped off 10-20% for an item does not make the fraud less insidious. Multiply that times tens of millions of dollars over the years. The bottom line is that with all the fraud in this hobby I'm surprised that the most venom is reserved for behavior which I don't think rises to the level of a crime -- no matter how repulsive it is.

[brickyardkennedy]

The Shop At Home Network was never meant to be directed at the knowledgeable, but rather, the ignorant and gullible. And they damn well knew who their audience was. So, it's a question off whether or not you, like the bandit leader in The Magnificent Seven, believe that, "If God did not want them to be shorn, he would not have made them sheep", or if you believe that man should conduct himself in a more ethical manner.

[botn]

And what about the tens of millions of dollars spent on high grade cards in PSA and SGC holders, that if broken out and assessed honestly, would come back with an A?

Don't think anyone here feels shilling bidding is great for the hobby. And I agree you have to start somewhere, e.g. the Mastro indictment, but here is a thread addressing questionable activity by someone in the hobby and you have to derail it and sort of denounce it because it pales in comparison to shill bidding. Shill bidding pales in comparison to the crimes committed in trimming cards and slabbing them.

If you are a hobby crusader then why would you take this approach?

[calvindog]

And what about the tens of millions of dollars spent on high grade cards in PSA and SGC holders, that if broken out and assessed honestly, would come back with an A?

Don't think anyone here feels shilling bidding is great for the hobby. And I agree you have to start somewhere, e.g. the Mastro indictment, but here is a thread addressing questionable activity by someone in the hobby and you have to derail it and sort of denounce it because it pales in comparison to shill bidding. Shill bidding pales in comparison to the crimes committed in trimming cards and slabbing them.

If you are a hobby crusader then why would you take this approach?

How do you know I'm not concerned with trimmed cards and other fraud in the hobby? And who said I was a "hobby crusader?" I just was tired of getting ripped off and spoke out about it. And caught a lot of grief from the shillers' co-conspirators for daring to open my mouth. Did you forget? Instead of ripping me for not doing everything to clean up the hobby maybe acknowledge that at least I've done something.

[edhans]

Ken,
As one of your harshest critics in this thread, I'm glad to see a little remorse for your involvement with SAH. Though it stops somewhat short of the heartfelt apology I feel is warranted, it is a step in the right direction. I'm sure your new venture will be successful, but I'm not quite comfortable with supporting it just yet.

Jeff,
Agree completely that there should be no defense of shilled auctions. But in my view, the behavior of the folks at SAH and their collaborators, though not criminal in nature, is entirely worthy of all the venom in this thread, and then some.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Personally I feel that stories such as Glyn's and DJR's about the legacy of SAH are much worse than anything in the shill bidding annals. So some folks with lots of disposable income paid more than they should have. Bad, sure, but not the end of the world. And as Greg said, not even close to the evil that is trimming and otherwise altering cards.

[calvindog]

Ed, I don't disagree. Just wish that when a few of us were posting the obviously ridiculously consistent auction results associated with a few auction houses that someone might have expressed the same outrage we see here. But as I've stated, I guess no one on Net 54 made money with Ken.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One more for Jeff.

[calvindog]

It's not a dead horse until they're all in jail and restitution paid back. Of course it took five years to indict some of the fraudsters so I suppose I should have stopped talking about all this four and a half years ago. Sorry if it ruined your reading enjoyment of the board.

And hey, makes sense to criticize me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The indictments are not a dead horse, but bringing every thread and post back to them is.

[calvindog]

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the criticism here and the fact that some people who are critical here did all they could to shut me up back then.

Doesn't change the fact that bad behavior in this hobby should stop -- and more people should speak up about it instead of burying their heads in the sand for financial purposes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bad behavior should stop -- you won't get any argument from me there.

[calvindog]

Jesus H., about time. :)

[RobertGT]

I agree with Calvindog. There are far more egregious things to be worrying about in the hobby today than some decade-old SAH clips overhyping modern cards, and here we are 150 posts and counting devoted to it.

I think a lot of the vitriol spilled forth here has a bit to do with a bias on this board against modern cards (you know - the ones with the print runs in the billions). Were they worthless? For the most part, yes. But they were a lot less worthless 12 years ago then they are today. You can still sell a 87 Topps set for $10 today, and in some of the SAH deals you would get 15 factory sets for maybe $150 or so.

As for the story about the gentleman who bought $20K worth of cards worth maybe $2k, that is indeed a terrible situation. But he just as easily could have plowed $20K into creased-up vintage cards that some dealer sold to him at "high book" value. Those also would be worth about $2K. That never happens today right?

For every story about an unknowing guy who paid way too much for SAH stuff, there are 20 to tell about some crafty dealer who scammed a longtime collector's widow out of his lifetime collection for pennies on the dollar - probably days after the guy passed away. Or a story to tell of a dealer putting a "Hi book price" on a card in P/G condition and then telling you are getting a great deal when he gives you 25 percent off.

Indeed, there are far worse things to worry about. So let's get back to some real problems: rampant auction HOUSE BIDDING, eBay scams, rip-off artist dealers and the traveling museums, dealers who refuse to accept eBay as the true market value, Target and Walmart pack searchers, trimmed cards, rebacked cards, artificially aged reprints, reprints in TPG holders, cracked and frosted holders, fly-by-night grading companies, companies that put a "10" on a card in EXMT condition (see BCCG), resealed wax, Craigslist fraud, "Grandpa's attic" sellers, forged autographs, incompetent autograph authentication, shilled eBay auctions, stolen scans, stolen collections and the world's greatest baseball card graded PSA 8 even though it has been trimmed.

And no, I don't work for Ken Goldin nor do I know him personally, but I do love those old clips.

Good luck out there.
Rob

[DerekMichael]

I apologize for interrupting your conversation guys, but I just had to say, post #43 by "Wonka" is hilarious. I remember these guys from when I was a young kid, like it was yesterday. I would watch it back then and just crack up. Priceless.

Ok, I will shut up now and leave the actual argument to the intelligent folks on here.

[drc]

After watching said video, I have to say Don West is impressive. He was the only one there who didn't require a mic.

[chaddurbin]

so everyone is in agreement on at least one thing here--don west live via webcam at goldin headquarter on the closing day to pump up the ending lots?

[dherm360]

so everyone is in agreement on at least one thing here--don west live via webcam at goldin headquarter on the closing day to pump up the ending lots?

doesnt Don West now work in the wrestling profession

[HRBAKER]

doesnt Don West now work in the wrestling profession

Last time I heard the blather, he was on a Sportstalk station in Nashville.

[boneheadandrube]

"Jeff has a bad attitude"...is about the only thing I've gotten out of his posts for the last month or so...Why would you go after a guy like Barry on a personal level for any reason? If you have a fire under your ass because of tools like Mastro and Allen why would you spray it at him? Did he shill you on something...no!

Go back to lawyer crap..sheesh!
GB

[glynparson]

for the record I hate shill bidding and I do not consign or bid in legendary either. (In the past I have had one legendary consignment, and i bid a couple times with Mastro but never won anything). I also hate the rumored notions of: card doctoring, counterfeiting, extreme overpricing, overhyping, deception, incompetence of grading companies, payoffs to grading companies, and any other possible bad practices that may or may not be occurring. Even though his past indiscretions may be seen by some as less severe, I still think Ken is not an individual I wish to do business with. PS. Did I miss something has Bill goodwin been indicted now for shill bidding? I'm not saying it is or isn't true, I'd just need more evidence then some freaky auction results. Do you have something to share, you can pm me if you'd like. I've also never consigned to Bill Goodwin though I have sold him a few cards outright and had advised a former friend to consign to him back around 2004.

[wonkaticket]

It was around 1999-2000. I received a phone call from a woman in the Lebanon PA area. Her husband has just passed away from cancer and all he left her was this very valuable baseball card collection. When I get to the house, I brought my father with me to help go through it, she takes us to the basement to see the collection. When I get there I am horrified. It is all very beat up ugly off centered new cards all in 10 holders. The woman then explains to us how her husband found out he was dying of cancer, he didn't tell anyone at first. they had little money and No life insurance. They did have good credit, and he eventually told his wife he was dying of cancer but he had provided for her and their daughter. He got several credit cards and maxed them out buying that overhyped crap off of TV from Mr Goldin and Solomon Cramer. It was so hard explaining to this woman that her sick desperate husband, who was trying to give his family a future, had actually wasted tens of thousands of dollars they did not have. The woman was crying hysterically she was telling us how she would lose her home because she needed money from these cards. He had spent 20000+ and I would not have given her $2000 for it all and I would have paid her more than it was worth to try and help her. So no, he will not get a second chance from me, I don't care if he gets every white whale on my want list. I hope is has turned a new leaf but until past since are acknowledge a little more honestly and openly, and attempted to be rectified when possible, I will avoid Goldin auctions and be openly critical of his past, and I also wish they would not be an advertiser and please don't send me any email blasts about upcoming auctions as I don't care.

Edit: Jeff if you would see some of the garbage they were calling gem mint on modern stuff it seems a little beyond puffery in my opinion.

Classy guy cant wait to sign up and bid.

So you're saying what was purchased by this dying man acting off the info given to him by so called trusted experts on TV wasn't?

“Simply put this is the greatest baseball card trading product ever put out in the history of mankind!” Ken Goldin

If so I'm just shocked. :rolleyes:

Jeff I think all these guys who screw us are equally jack wagons Mastro, Allen & Nash any of them who get caught taking advantage of us. I also agree we should be blasting the Allen’s, Mastro’s and Nash's or anyone who is implicated or caught doing ill will in whatever shape or form in the hobby. It’s garbage and doesn’t deserve a pass.

I agree it’s a bit short sided to beat on the nickel dime con while the crime king pin lives up the street and we all go over for dinner and compliment his furniture.

However this this jack wagon has announced he would like to move his way up the ladder to be a king pin and more respected. Since most all know his past tactics and sales angles he’s taking his beating…and part me wonders did he think it was going to be different.

Banner ads and announcements aside if it walks like a duck and…well you know the rest.

Bottom line you can come down with a cold or the flu, but you don’t all of sudden come down with a case of ethics and respectability.

[travrosty]

how close did that tiger woods card ever get to 100 grand?

[wonkaticket]

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/giant/Untitled-1_3.jpg

Ken,

To answer the above question at this time no. Addressing your PM.

I don’t need to have done business with you or personally know you. To feel that the way you conducted yourself during the Shop at Home Days was wrong in my personal opinion. It seems I’m not alone in my feelings.The Shop at Home sales tactics took advantage of folks with misinformation, hype and in many cases outright lies in my opinion. I think you know this too it’s no surprise. There is nothing that you’re going to tell me in private that would make see this as anything different I’m sorry.

Far from ripping you Ken yes I used the term “jack wagon” above figured a guy who was mixed up or part of the Shop at Home trainwreck wouldn’t have thin skin. I’m sorry and by sorry I mean. I have what I assume would be the same level of remorse you have for the folks who were sold bad stuff from Shop at Home. Since we are going to use that as my baseline of how I feel for using the term "jack wagon" above. Please tell me how upset I should be. ;)

I post the above here in transparency as I will not hide behind PMs. I will not have off the record discussions with you or have anything twisted. I will also not play both sides of a fence, meaning have nice chats with you offline and blast you here. Anything I can say or have said about you can be made public here.

In terms of what I have posted about you Ken. At this point all I have done is simply point out your past actions which unfortunately for you are not very becoming. Again I don’t think I’m alone on this one.

Ken you’re right I have no personal dealings with you or any need for a personal vendetta so the bigger question why would I feel this way again? Why would I say ughh really this guy has an auction house? I think you know the answer...

This is not a witch hunt against you Ken. If Michael Milken popped up on the Net54 stock market discussion forum announcing his new trading company. I would also tell him I’m not looking to rush over some cash so he could manage my portfolio. I most likely would point out his past with links and videos as well.

Ken you’re not going to convince folks who view your past in a poor light that you’re a stand-up guy overnight. It’s going to take a lot more than throwing up a post. Tossing Leon a few bucks for a banner ads/email blasts, to think that your past actions are not worth keeping in the back of people’s minds when it comes to dealing with you as a business.

Bottom line there are tons of auctions houses looking to take my money. Sadly there are more of them with more stuff than I have money….I think that goes for most. :)

It’s not for you to convince me with calls, private emails, posts and it’s not on me or others to give you a leap of faith chance or pass either. The success of your auction house depends on you having quality merchandise and running a professional business. It’s on you to overcome my/our views of your past by running a solid respectable business and giving me a reason to want to do business with you.

In the end I may decide to do business with you and I may not. However at that point you’ve done your part. I just decided personally to pass regardless if you agree or not.

Cheers,

John

[npa589]

Hahahahaaha, I simply don't care enough. I have too much to do.

[sycks22]

I loved watching AANTV, they would only quote PSA pop reports on a card that's graded by GMA or some other terrible grading company and say the Ruth card goes for $3,000 all day when recent sales on ebay show it goes for $324. When I brought this to their attention they said ebay isn't a reliable source and I told them there are more companies than just PSA with pop reports and they didn't care. It was sad to see some people getting sucked into their lies.

[botn]

That must just be how it is done at AAN TV. So much for life changing for Ken now that he has 2 daughters.

Ken should have used any other name but his own for the auction house and been a background player.

[frankbmd]

All that glitters is not goldin

[npa589]

I simply don't care enough...happy collecting.

[wonkaticket]

Nate I'm sure he will PM you to clear this all up and answer your questions. :D

[npa589]

Maybe!

[Matthew H]

I guess the moral of the story here is go ahead and be criminal, just don't be unethical, if that makes any sense.

[botn]

Ken actually told me on the telephone the other day that he and the others involved really did not need the money. They just really wanted to do this. So I guess he does love the hobby. Sounds like he was born to have his own auction house!

Does make me wonder about the ethics of the other people who are involved with him. No way his partners cannot know about who this guy is, is there?

[wonkaticket]

Ken actually told me on the telephone the other day that he and the others involved really did not need the money.

Then he should care even less that I posted his greatest hits, and should have no reason to PM me...

[Tsaiko]

If Michael Milken popped up on the Net54 stock market discussion forum announcing his new trading company.

Net 54 has a stock market discussion forum? I think that was just to make a point, but I think it would be a cool sub forum. I bet there's a fair amount of astute investors on net54 and sharing strategies might be cool. Stocks really aren't that different than cards, are they?

Sorry for the off topic. Carry on gentlemen.

[teetwoohsix]

I removed entire post as per email request by Mr.Goldin, on the basis that my post was mostly a quote of Nate's that has been edited/removed by the OP.

I'm done with this thread.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Stocks really aren't that different than cards, are they?

I like your analogy. I see the parallels of Enron, Worldcom, Lehman Brothers and the Madoff fund compared to some of the high profile cards that are out there. I also see some parallels between Arthur Andersen and third party grading.

[botn]

Then he should care even less that I posted his greatest hits, and should have no reason to PM me...

Maybe he just wanted the opportunity to lie to you directly, as he did to me and to Leon.

You are such a killjoy.

[Gary Dunaier]

Ironically, in his capacity as a TNA broadcaster, Don West had his very own autographed card...

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m124/coinboynyc/2788265640_ea331d0e24_m.jpg

:eek:

[wonkaticket]

Maybe he just wanted the opportunity to lie to you directly, as he did to me and to Leon.

You are such a killjoy.

Sorry Greg....my bad. :)

[Exhibitman]

... Mastro, Allen, etc., guys who stole from everyone HERE by using fraudulent means which rose to the level of violations of federal criminal law. ...

Allegedly ;) :)

The sad irony of the original subject at issue is that "just" being a shameless huckster with a tawdry past hawking overpriced crap to nitwits is a glowing resume by comparison to the scumbags running some of the other AHs.

[sycks22]

11,000 views on here, amazing.

[botn]

Well John, I guess that is just the way it is done...

[RobertGT]

Can someone please post the "train wreck" image on this thread now?

[HOF Yankees]

delete

[drc]

-- edited for poor grammar --

[cobblove]

Did i read this right?

They said they offered a T206 Honus wagner to be pulled out of the product they sold.
And they also had a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle that was also posible to be pulled out of there product.

And only the 1952 Topps Mantle was given away and not the T206 Wagner..

They kept the wagner???

No where in this question did I say Ken did this. I said (they) the people who offered this deal...? I know it was offered there but saw it was never given out. I am not saying Ken was part of this deal in any way.

[7nohitter]

**Information has been brought to my attention which indicates that Goldin was not on SAH in 1990...apparently West was shilling with someone else in 1990...**

[cmcclelland]

Did i read this right?

They said they offered a T206 Honus wagner to be pulled out of the product they sold.
And they also had a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle that was also posible to be pulled out of there product.

And only the 1952 Topps Mantle was given away and not the T206 Wagner..

They kept the wagner???

I would really like to know the answer to this question. Mr. "Tough Guy" Goldin - since this is a purely factual question - maybe you would care to answer? Or maybe you will threaten to sick your lawyer on my again for even bringing it up?

[Jlighter]

Can someone post a video or a link to a video from SAH with Goldin because I have looked and still not found one?

[botn]

I would really like to know the answer to this question. Mr. "Tough Guy" Goldin - since this is a purely factual question - maybe you would care to answer? Or maybe you will threaten to sick your lawyer on my again for even bringing it up?

Yesterday morning Goldin posted the following: "To address one last question that was raised, on post 48 I outlined my departure from SB in 1997, as well as fact that I was not with the company when redemptions were due (including the Wagner card) so I cannot answer as to the outcome that John White CEO of SB did with the card."

Not sure how much weight we can actually put on Goldin's word, at this point, since getting divorced, remarried and having two daughters has not actually made him any different than he was prior to those events. I think the first question to answer is did SB ever have the Wagner. He certainly should have been at SB long enough to know that much.

[wonkaticket]

Can someone post a video or a link to a video from SAH with Goldin because I have looked and still not found one?

#43

[scgaynor]

Did SB have the Wagner? Obviously they did, it is in the video which is posted in message #43. And David Kohler can confirm it, he sold it to SB in 1997. Also, there is a post in this long thread detailing that Ken left SB in the summer of 1997 (which is reported in public documents). The company went bankrupt in April 1998, and the Wagner card, presumably, along with all the other unclaimed redemptions were sold at a bankruptcy auction in 1999. All of this is in message #48 and in public records.

Also back in #173 you asked "Does make me wonder about the ethics of the other people who are involved with him. No way his partners cannot know about who this guy is, is there? "

There is a bit of irony in this question. I am not a financial partner, but the reason that I am involved in helping Ken with this is that his vision of what he wants Goldin Auctions to be is exactly the opposite of what you envision. Ken and I have had discussion about what an auction should be like. If his vision was an auction of puffery, cards graded by no name people and items of questionable authenticity, I would not have anything to do with it. Alot of people on this board (most?) have done business with me and know that I don't get involved with people who deal in fakes.

As I said before, it would seem to make sense that you let the catalog come out, and if you see problems, then speak up.

Scott

[Matthew H]

how close did that tiger woods card ever get to 100 grand?

Considering someone paid 125k for a woods card cut out of sports illustrated, I'm sure some PSA 10s sold for some real money. I remember seeing that card on SAH a lot back then. They were selling it for current market value. Obviously the 100k card claims weren't accurate.

[botn]

Did SB have the Wagner? Obviously they did, it is in the video which is posted in message #43.

Could not watch the video, Scott. Guess I do not have your constitution.

Also back in #173 you asked "Does make me wonder about the ethics of the other people who are involved with him. No way his partners cannot know about who this guy is, is there? "

There is a bit of irony in this question.

Please elaborate on the irony, Scott.

As I said before, it would seem to make sense that you let the catalog come out, and if you see problems, then speak up.


I do not follow your logic at all. I saw Mastro's and Legendary's catalogs for years. Apparently there was no mention in the catalog that they were going to be indicted. How does a catalog tell me about the integrity of the auction house? Also you seem a bit defensive. Thanks for the info on the Wagner, however.

[Jlighter]

#43

Thanks, skipped over a few of the threads pages.

[scgaynor]

The irony is stated in the paragraph. The part that you edited out. You question my ethics, and the ethics of Ken Goldin, but the auction is going to be run in the most ethical of manners (the opposite of what you envision). Irony as defined by Webster "incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result."

"I do not follow your logic at all. I saw Mastro's and Legendary's catalogs for years. Apparently there was no mention in the catalog that they were going to be indicted. How does a catalog tell me about the integrity of the auction house?"

If your concern, as I understand it, is with puffery and authenticity, the catalog will tell you all that you need to know.

Scott

[Runscott]

Alot of people on this board (most?) have done business with me and know that I don't get involved with people who deal in fakes.

...

Scott

I used Scott to sell quite a bit of stuff around eight years ago. Among the items were two postcards that had been sold to me by a very reputable board member. I thought they might be fakes, but I said nothing to Scott before sending them in with the other stuff. Scott was reputable, so I figured if they were okay with him, then I might be mistaken.

He sent them back to me (only the two postcards) and said that he did not feel comfortable with them - couldn't say exactly what was wrong with them, but they didn't look 'good' to him.

I completely respect Scott and his auctions.

[botn]

If your concern, as I understand it, is with puffery and authenticity, the catalog will tell you all that you need to know.
Scott

Thought my posts were clear. My concern is Goldin's apparent lack of integrity. My initial posts were about his history with SAH and the bad SB stuff that was floating in the hobby and the countless people who got burned. He addressed both of those issues. With regard to SAH he described that as something which happened 10 years ago, and things were done that way but his life had now changed due to being divorced, remarried and having two kids. Despite not being convinced of his true sincerity, I let it go until Nate was kind enough to point out that Ken never really stopped with those selling tactics, after all. As he was seen as recently as April doing the same crap on AAN tv.

I have never heard a single person say anything negative about you so my posts are not directed at you. I just wonder why anyone would want to be affiliated with a guy who seems to have questionable ethics and no problem with telling lies.

[slidekellyslide]

I used Scott to sell quite a bit of stuff around eight years ago. Among the items were two postcards that had been sold to me by a very reputable board member. I thought they might be fakes, but I said nothing to Scott before sending them in with the other stuff. Scott was reputable, so I figured if they were okay with him, then I might be mistaken.

He sent them back to me (only the two postcards) and said that he did not feel comfortable with them - couldn't say exactly what was wrong with them, but they didn't look 'good' to him.

I completely respect Scott and his auctions.


Did you ever find out if the postcards were legit? What were they, if you don't mind me asking?

[drc]

I will testify that Scott Gaynor is a very reputable and knowledgeable auctioneer. I've bought and consigned with him many times, and think he's one of the best in the business.

[Gary Dunaier]

**Information has been brought to my attention which indicates that Goldin was not on SAH in 1990...apparently West was shilling with someone else in 1990...**

Are you thinking of his co-host, Eddy Lewis?

http://topsytasty.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/don-hands.jpg

[scgaynor]

"As he was seen as recently as April doing the same crap on AAN tv."

Did you actually see him on AANTV or just Goldin Sports products with Goldin hologram and cert. It is my understanding that Ken does not sell on AANTV has never appeared on that network.

A poster Nate Adams mentioned seeing him earlier too, however I don't understand how that is possible. It is possible that he just don't know what Ken looks like and maybe it was a misunderstanding. If so, his post should be edited.

Scott

[Peter_Spaeth]

As post 188 makes clear, people should be careful with their facts, because a retraction doesn't always have the visibility of the initial post.

[RobertGT]

As post 188 makes clear, people should be careful with their facts, because a retraction doesn't always have the visibility of the initial post.

+1
Lots of unsubstantiated stuff being thrown around in this thread without regard to the actual facts. Can you prove what you are saying? Or is that just what you think? I work in newspapers, and if we ever published the word "con artist" next to someone's name with no official attribution, court disposition or documentation backing up that claim, we would be sued for millions of dollars.

I bet Goldin and his lawyers are now paying very close attention to this thread and what is being said here.

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation a negative or inferior image. This can be also any disparaging statement made by one person about another, which is communicated or published, whether true or false, depending on legal state. In Common Law it is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).

[botn]

"As he was seen as recently as April doing the same crap on AAN tv."

Did you actually see him on AANTV or just Goldin Sports products with Goldin hologram and cert. It is my understanding that Ken does not sell on AANTV has never appeared on that network.

A poster Nate Adams mentioned seeing him earlier too, however I don't understand how that is possible. It is possible that he just don't know what Ken looks like and maybe it was a misunderstanding. If so, his post should be edited.

Scott
It appears Nate retracted his entire post and probably the other post he made on another thread in which he refers to Goldin being on AAN tv. So Goldin's company nor Goldin are profiting from the sales of these products to which Nate was referring?

[scgaynor]

It appears Nate retracted his entire post and probably the other post he made on another thread in which he refers to Goldin being on AAN tv. So Goldin's company nor Goldin are profiting from the sales of these products to which Nate was referring?

Goldin Collectibles sells wholesale to venders who in turn resell at a higher price. I am sure that he made something on the original sale.

Scott

[wonkaticket]

My last post on this topic....

Robert....that’s a quick way to solidify your place in the auction world sue your future customers. That would surely make folks feel right at home and ready to place bids and hand over consignments. ;)

I don’t see all that much leap of faith statements in here. I don’t see too much in the way of true slander either but I’m no attorney so I’ll let them chime in I think we have one or two here. :)

Videos are there everyone here knows that the SAH home days were over the top. Even Ken himself admitted it in this thread it “it was how it was done”. He calls it an “aggressive sales style” but any hobbyist with even a simply understanding of collecting knows that “aggressive sales style” equated to inflated claims, crazy hyped pitches that just didn’t quite add up and in some cases out right misinformation.

Examples selling cards today for 2k because next month lesser cards will be worth twice that…in talks of values quotes from Don West to Ken, “Honus Wagner only has like 4 cards” we all know Honus appears in more issues than that etc. etc.

Look we all laughed because we all for the most part are in the hobby and were not sold on the crazy pitches. It was as one person said entertainment a guilty pleasure if you will. For Shop at Home it was a business and a profitable one that Ken benefited from like it or not.

But there is an ugly side to this that we seem to be forgetting here that’s deeper than Ken and his new venture.

There were lots of folks who weren’t in the hobby. There were plenty of people who took these Shop at Home gentleman at their word as experts. These innocent people made justified buying decisions based upon inflated claims and so called trusted expert pipe dreams. To me anything that is spun from the root of the truth to inflate or get more out of something is a basic con sorry if you feel different. May not be illegal but can be called unethical.

Sadly many of these innocent people were left holding a worthless bag. That bag was meant to be a nest egg, a father son bonding experience etc. what a horrible taste to leave in someone’s mouth about our beloved hobby. What a message to send to future generations of collectors who we all depend on for the values of our own collections.

I never claimed Ken was at the root of all Shop at Home games. However he was present and accounted for on a few. The videos are public record.

Those for me in my personal opinion were enough for me to not trust or want to do business with Ken and his company and to voice that view here. Where he announced his business open to his potential customers (me).

I think the videos are to me an insight of where Ken used to draw the line and most likely draws the line today.

If the line for Ken has moved great and good for him! However it’s on him to prove that to his new customers, not on me to bend my position.

Cheers,

John

[cmcclelland]

I am sure Nate probably retracted his post because "Tough Guy" Goldin most likely sent him a message threatening to have his lawyers contact him.

Just a little legal advice for everyone - any action for defamation, slander, etc. would require that someone INTENTIONALLY state something that they know to be FALSE about the other person thereby inuring the other person's reputation.

These elements would all cause problems for Mr. Goldin if he ever tried to pursue this type of action based on the statements I've read on this board so far. First, nothing I've read appears to be something that any reasonable person could think was intentionally stated when it was known to be false. Second, it would be tough to argue that Mr. Goldin's reputation has been injured by statements on this board since he has already done so much to injure his reputation himself based on his past actions and business practices. Just the youtube video alone is probably enough for a reasonable person to believe that Mr. Goldin's reputation was already at such a low level that nothing here could change that for the worse.

[RobertGT]

My last post on this topic....


I don’t see all that much leap of faith statements in here. I don’t see too much in the way of true slander either but I’m no attorney so I’ll let them chime in I think we have one or two here. :)


John

I think the potentially troublesome posts have since been edited and retracted - thankfully.

[botn]

Goldin Collectibles sells wholesale to venders who in turn resell at a higher price. I am sure that he made something on the original sale.

Scott

Thanks Scott.

Seems I was wrong. Nate's post is still there.

[RobertGT]

I am sure Nate probably retracted his post because "Tough Guy" Goldin most likely sent him a message threatening to have his lawyers contact him.

Just a little legal advice for everyone - any action for defamation, slander, etc. would require that someone INTENTIONALLY state something that they know to be FALSE about the other person thereby inuring the other person's reputation.

These elements would all cause problems for Mr. Goldin if he ever tried to pursue this type of action based on the statements I've read on this board so far. First, nothing I've read appears to be something that any reasonable person could think was intentionally stated when it was known to be false. Second, it would be tough to argue that Mr. Goldin's reputation has been injured by statements on this board since he has already done so much to injure his reputation himself based on his past actions and business practices. Just the youtube video alone is probably enough for a reasonable person to believe that Mr. Goldin's reputation was already at such a low level that nothing here could change that for the worse.

This only holds true if the defamed is deemed by the court to be a public figure. I'm not sure Mr. Goldin would be deemed to be a public figure known to the lay person outside of the hobby.

If the person is deemed not to be a public figure, you can be sued and lose just by publishing something false about that person.

However, the key point you made is valid. He would have to prove damages/loss of money based on that statement -- and that would be very tough.

[npa589]

Well, my post gradually turned into everyone interpreting "seen" out of "heard". As you know, there is a marked difference between "seeing" and "hearing". I went back and altered posts to not even POSSIBLY imply that I saw Ken on aantv. I did not say that initially, since, in fact, I didn't.

I do not care enough to fight about this, really I don't, I simply have too much to worry about.

Also - just because I want to - it's being implied that I retracted posts because of him contacting me? Not sure how that arose... For a couple reasons this isn't true. 1. He hadn't contacted me. Also, I hadn't even retracted any post. I'm just clarifying some things because people have ran with this "seeing" him on AANtv thing. At this point, I'd rather focus on some other things. Peace!

[David R]

This only holds true if the defamed is deemed by the court to be a public figure. I'm not sure Mr. Goldin would be deemed to be a public figure known to the lay person outside of the hobby.

If the person is deemed not to be a public figure, you can be sued and lose just by publishing something false about that person.

However, the key point you made is valid. He would have to prove damages/loss of money based on that statement -- and that would be very tough.

The other problem with a defamation lawsuit is that "truth" is a defense so if you sue someone saying their statements about you are untrue, you open yourself up to a lot of discovery about the topics in question. In a situation like this one, that would probably mean a lot of close examination and digging into things in the past that Mr. Goldin would probably prefer to leave alone.

[travrosty]

sometimes the exposure of the suit is more embarrassing than the initial complaint and could possibly reach more people too. that is taken into account.


i was a night owl and many a times i watched those sah shows and it was time after time after time I kept shaking my head wondering how they could do that to people.

buy todd van poppel or brien taylor or whoever and they are going to be the next nolan ryan, and ryan's rookie sells for x and this is the chance of the lifetime. I think of it now and it gives me goosebumps how they could do that, it was nonstop hype over and above any type of balance, and there had to be people grabbing the phones time and time again wondering how sah could be so stupid to let these incredible cards go for such an incredibly low price because west and goldin said so.

[Runscott]

Did you ever find out if the postcards were legit? What were they, if you don't mind me asking?

Sending you a PM

[cmcclelland]

I would really like to know what ever happened to the T206 Wagner that was supposed to be given away during his Shop at Home days. Is it the same one that is pictured on the home page of Goldin's new website? Maybe he bought if back from the lucky guy who owns it now and it's going to be in the upcoming Goldin auction? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

[whitehse]

I had a friend at the time who pulled one of the actual redemptions for the Wagner from a pack of SB cards. He did receive a vintage card as a prize and was entered into the drawing for the Wagner. (I believe there was 10 total redemptions available at that time). Needless to say he was pretty upset and looked into a potential lawsuit but it soon became clear there was no way they would even get anything from the lawsuit. Since that day the name of the principals in this company have been mud in my eyes.

Andrew Wh.ite

[travrosty]

if they didnt give the wagner away but enticed people to cumulatively buy heaven knows how many thousands upon thousands of packs in hopes of winning an entry for it, then i find it abominable.

[scgaynor]

I wanted to take a minute and clear up some confusion about the T206 Wagner card. There is a lot of misinformation floating around. This information has been posted before, but since the thread is so long, it is worth summarizing.

Scoreboard purchased the card from Dave Kohler in 1997. The card was used as a promotional piece for 1997 All Sport PPF. There were 25 redemption certificates randomly inserted into packs, if they pulled a redemption card, they were sent a Wagner card (not the T206). All of those redemption cards were then put into a larger raffle to win the T206. Scoreboard filed for bankruptcy before the winner could be drawn, and the card was sold at auction in 1999. In a bankruptcy filing some creditors are considered priority by the bankruptcy court and paid first. The rest of the creditors are paid with whatever is left over. People who were to receive redemptions were considered by the court to be the lowest priority.

While Ken was the face of the company for several years before the bankruptcy, Ken had left the company in the Summer of 1997 before it went into bankruptcy. After he left the board of directors mismanaged the company and Scoreboard went into bankruptcy in the Spring of 1998. The assets were sold in 1999 and purchased by a company called the Oxford Group. What they did with the Wagner card is unknown. Since the sales of assets are sold by the courts through auction, there is no way, as some are suggesting, that Ken could have kept the card, especially since he was no longer involved with the company that owned the card.

All of this is a matter of public record.

[Matthew H]

I had a friend at the time who pulled one of the actual redemptions for the Wagner from a pack of SB cards. He did receive a vintage card as a prize and was entered into the drawing for the Wagner. (I believe there was 10 total redemptions available at that time). Needless to say he was pretty upset and looked into a potential lawsuit but it soon became clear there was no way they would even get anything from the lawsuit. Since that day the name of the principals in this company have been mud in my eyes.

Andrew Wh.ite


What card did he get if you don't mind me asking?

[wonkaticket]

Scott, thanks for being Ken’s voice etc. but I have two questions for you.

Don’t you find the shenanigans of Ken’s Shop At Home days the least bit misleading and lacking some basic integrity and ethics? If so why now the change of heart in terms of supporting Ken?

I only ask because you have always seemed to be a straight shooter who runs a nice business.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wanted to take a minute and clear up some confusion about the T206 Wagner card. There is a lot of misinformation floating around. This information has been posted before, but since the thread is so long, it is worth summarizing.

Scoreboard purchased the card from Dave Kohler in 1997. The card was used as a promotional piece for 1997 All Sport PPF. There were 25 redemption certificates randomly inserted into packs, if they pulled a redemption card, they were sent a Wagner card (not the T206). All of those redemption cards were then put into a larger raffle to win the T206. Scoreboard filed for bankruptcy before the winner could be drawn, and the card was sold at auction in 1999. In a bankruptcy filing some creditors are considered priority by the bankruptcy court and paid first. The rest of the creditors are paid with whatever is left over. People who were to receive redemptions were considered by the court to be the lowest priority.

While Ken was the face of the company for several years before the bankruptcy, Ken had left the company in the Summer of 1997 before it went into bankruptcy. After he left the board of directors mismanaged the company and Scoreboard went into bankruptcy in the Spring of 1998. The assets were sold in 1999 and purchased by a company called the Oxford Group. What they did with the Wagner card is unknown. Since the sales of assets are sold by the courts through auction, there is no way, as some are suggesting, that Ken could have kept the card, especially since he was no longer involved with the company that owned the card.

All of this is a matter of public record.

Scott sorry I may be misunderstanding you, but in one paragraph you say the Wagner was sold at auction in 1999, in the next paragraph you say what the company who bought Scoreboard's assets out of bankruptcy did with the card is unknown. Can you clarify? EDIT TO ADD Maybe the point is that Oxford Group bought the card in a bankruptcy court auction but it isn't known what it, in turn, did with the card?

[DJR]

The Oxxford Express, Inc. ("Oxxford")
240 West Parkway
Pequannock, NJ 07440

Another address:
POMPTON PLAINS, NJ 07444-1029

http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=newscoreboard
NEWSCOREBOARD.COM

''Aug 4, 1998 -- The Score Board, Inc. ("Score Board"), a marketer and ... to Oxxford Express, Inc. ("Oxxford") for a purchase price of $2400000.''

[bigfish]

Scott, thanks for being Ken’s voice etc. but I have two questions for you.

Don’t you find the shenanigans of Ken’s Shop At Home days the least bit misleading and lacking some basic integrity and ethics? If so why now the change of heart in terms of supporting Ken?

I only ask because you have always seemed to be a straight shooter who runs a nice business.

Cheers,

John

+1

[scgaynor]

I look at the SAH days and the current auction it as two different things.

The SAH days were a different time in the hobby and in Ken's life. Ken said himself that he was not proud of those sales tactics.

The catalog auction is aimed at a more advanced audience and the material sells itself. You won't see the "hype" of the SAH days. I know because I will probably be writing a bunch of the copy, and that is not my style at all. Ken's attention is focused on dealing with the players and agents.

To answer Peter's question. The assets were purchased by Oxford at auction in 1999. Sorry I was unclear. It is unknown what they did with the Wagner card.

Scott

[GoldenAge50s]

Isn't the auction of assets a part of public record and could be looked up to see where it went?

[wolf441]

I know because I will probably be writing a bunch of the copy, and that is not my style at all. Scott

Having seen & bid on Scott's auctions quite a bit in the early 2000's, I can say that his involvement is extremely encouraging. Always an honest dealer and some of the best items that I've ever owned.

[aaroncc]

I look at the SAH days and the current auction it as two different things.

The SAH days were a different time in the hobby and in Ken's life. Ken said himself that he was not proud of those sales tactics.

The catalog auction is aimed at a more advanced audience and the material sells itself. You won't see the "hype" of the SAH days. I know because I will probably be writing a bunch of the copy, and that is not my style at all. Ken's attention is focused on dealing with the players and agents.

To answer Peter's question. The assets were purchased by Oxford at auction in 1999. Sorry I was unclear. It is unknown what they did with the Wagner card.

Scott

Scott, curious is that the same T206 Wagner that David Kohler was trying to sell at the National in 1997?

[whitehse]

What card did he get if you don't mind me asking?

I am wracking my brain to remember but I believe it to be a more modern version of a Wagner. When I say modern I mean such as a 48 Leaf or something along those lines.

[whitehse]

I had a friend at the time who pulled one of the actual redemptions for the Wagner from a pack of SB cards. He did receive a vintage card as a prize and was entered into the drawing for the Wagner. (I believe there was 10 total redemptions available at that time). Needless to say he was pretty upset and looked into a potential lawsuit but it soon became clear there was no way they would even get anything from the lawsuit. Since that day the name of the principals in this company have been mud in my eyes.

Andrew Wh.ite

Sorry Leon......I forgot to add my name to this post. This was not intentional!

[wonkaticket]

The catalog auction is aimed at a more advanced audience and the material sells itself. You won't see the "hype" of the SAH days.

Scott thanks for the response.

The above statement troubles me a bit if I’m being honest and I could just be reading into your comment too much if so I apologize.

What does that really mean? :confused:

To me I read that statement as Ken has had to change his game plan or sales tactics because he’s not selling middle America late night naive TV viewers who don’t know any better anymore. Saying that something sells itself all things should in a way sell themselves to a degree.

Why did the stuff from the 90’s need the extra dramatics and aggressive sales style? I think we all know that answer. Sadly it was that audience that got the shaft and learned the answer to that question the hard way.

To say that Ken won’t adopt that tactic to advanced hobbyists is sort of a “duh” statement. He won’t do that because it won’t work on his new audience. Saying that it’s all better now and he can’t pull those tactics because of the clientele and material has changed…doesn’t seem to take away or make me feel any better and I’m sure the folks who got sold the SAH goods especially take no comfort in that.

Cheers,

John

[scgaynor]

I think that the thing to do is revisit this thread in October when people have a catalog in their hands and reserve judgement until that time. I am confident that after the catalog comes out and the auction takes place, that opinions will begin to change.

Scott

[wonkaticket]

Scott fair enough, for me I will have a hard time moving past or seeing past Ken’s SAH antics it will take one hell of a catalog to make we want to jump into that pool. Who knows perhaps he will have just that catalog.

Not that you care or need my approval in anyway. But no ill will to you here I think you are a standup guy and you being involved is a bit of head scratcher.

Cheers,

John

[travrosty]

I don't understand the comment, "it was a different hobby" back then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qVRa39LHHc&feature=relmfu

2:10 mark

this is where the money is, you wanna rob a bank baby, you gonna rob a bank right now!


check out part two also, at the 25 second mark.
All of the cards are rookie cards according to them. He names off all the rookie cards, he names Jordan, the cards they show, show this north carolina finest jordan. this is what they consider a jordan rookie card? It's in the loose change bin and no one considers it a rookie card.

Then on another program, rookies, rookies rookies, which contain only rookie cards they show this larry bird card. its not the topps 80-81 tri-panel rookie which the hobby calls his rc, so what is it? they showed a magic johnson of the same type.

[jefferyepayne]

Looking at a catalog isn't going to solve anything for me (and hopefully a lot of others). This discussion is about ethics, and pretty pictures in a catalog don't tell you anything about the ethics of the people involved.

It's time for collectors in this hobby to take a stand and STOP BIDDING on auctions by those you believe are unethical. Until that happens, nothing will change. It frosts me when someone says they will still bid on an item if they need it even if they believe the individuals involved are unethical. Have some principles, people. It's the only way this will ever change.

jeff

I think that the thing to do is revisit this thread in October when people have a catalog in their hands and reserve judgement until that time. I am confident that after the catalog comes out and the auction takes place, that opinions will begin to change.

Scott

[Ladder7]

Well put Jeff. The only way to clean this stinkin' house.

Even those 'it'll have to be a really great item to get me to bid' guys, riding the fence perpetuate the issue.

Online, the shyster's found religion... In reality;
http://erakablog.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/greed-money.jpg

Have a terrific day,
Steve F

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the thread comes down to the larger question, do we forgive people their past sins, or do we not.

For some of us, past sins are irrelevant, as long as we can get the items we want. Indeed, for these folks, ONGOING sins may not matter. Stuff trumps all. Or perhaps a less harsh assessment is that we feel that as individuals we won't make any difference anyhow, so we might as well get the items we want.

For others, whether to forgive past sins depends on the attitude of the sinner. I think most people (except maybe Wonka LOL) are willing to forgive or at least give a second chance to sinners who show genuine remorse. As I see it, what got Ken into trouble here was not his SAH days per se, but his apparent lack of genuine remorse. Perhaps he just chose his words poorly, but in a format like this all we have to go on are people's words.

And I agree that the catalog really isn't the issue.

[Big Ben]

Looking at a catalog isn't going to solve anything for me (and hopefully a lot of others). This discussion is about ethics, and pretty pictures in a catalog don't tell you anything about the ethics of the people involved.

It's time for collectors in this hobby to take a stand and STOP BIDDING on auctions by those you believe are unethical. Until that happens, nothing will change. It frosts me when someone says they will still bid on an item if they need it even if they believe the individuals involved are unethical. Have some principles, people. It's the only way this will ever change.

jeff

I very much agree with your post. I never understood why people continued to bid on those types of auctions.

[wolf441]

Just my humble opinion, but I do believe in second chances and will reserve judgement for the time being. People can and do change all the time. I would cite Michael Milken as a great example. He was disgraced during the junk bond scandal in the late 1980's, served his prison sentence and became a leading advocate for cancer research whose philanthropic endeavors have raised hundreds of millions for cancer research.

[jefferyepayne]

Just my humble opinion, but I do believe in second chances and will reserve judgement for the time being. People can and do change all the time. I would cite Michael Milken as a great example. He was disgraced during the junk bond scandal in the late 1980's, served his prison sentence and became a leading advocate for cancer research whose philanthropic endeavors have raised hundreds of millions for cancer research.

I most definitely believe in second chances too. I give them to people all of the time. However, you need to EARN your second chances. Until someone is sincere and honest and shows signs of truly changing, buyer beware. I've found that someone that can't (or won't) admit they made a mistake and apologize for it instead of giving lame excuses as to why "things were different then", has not yet earned this second chance. Con men thrive on those who blindly give a second chance. Hold people accountable for their actions if you want change.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me ...

jeff

[wolf441]

Point taken Jeff,

I'm not advocating blindly giving a second chance. I'm just interested to see how things play out. Just from being a member of Net54 for a very short period of time, I don't believe that the crowd here will be taken in by a less than 100% honest auction house. And seeing Scott Gaynor involved gives me hope as well.

Best wishes,

Steve

[jefferyepayne]

I wish you were right. In other threads on Net54, people have said they will participate in any auctions that has the cards they need, irrespective of the ethics or past behavior of the auction house / owner. Unfortunately it appears that very few are willing to do what's right if it results in even a small amount of personal loss.

The con men are laughing all the way to the bank when this attitude prevails and anyone in the hobby with a positive brand needs to be careful associating themselves with those of questionable ethics. In business, your brand is partially determined by who you associate with...

jeff

Point taken Jeff,

I'm not advocating blindly giving a second chance. I'm just interested to see how things play out. Just from being a member of Net54 for a very short period of time, I don't believe that the crowd here will be taken in by a less than 100% honest auction house. And seeing Scott Gaynor involved gives me hope as well.

Best wishes,

Steve

[Tabe]

I, too, spent many hours watching Ken Goldin on SAH during the late hours of the evening back then. It was entertainment as much as anything. However, I must disagree vehemently with Goldin when he says "that's how it was done" or otherwise shrugs off his selling tactics on SAH. I can live with cards being overhyped, to some degree. However, Golding and West often just flat-out lied. To cite one example, they hyped Mark McGwire Glacier Pilots cards a LOT when I was watching. Over and over and over calling it a "pre-rookie". Ok, whatever. Problem is, they (both of them) also stated, over and over, that it was a "1982 Glacier Pilots" card. That's just patently false. The card was printed in 1989 not 1982. To say it was a 1982 card is lying, it's not puffery. It's not overhyping, it's LYING. I've got a set Renatta Galasso made of the 1961 Yankees sometime in the early 80s. If I called it a 1961 Renatta Galasso set, I'd be LYING. Yet that's exactly what Goldin and SAH did.

So, sorry guys, but I'll be keeping my $$$ away from this auction venture.

Tabe

[Matthew H]

We should start a list of ethical auction houses, so we know where to bid.

[Runscott]

I wish you were right. In other threads on Net54, people have said they will participate in any auctions that has the cards they need, irrespective of the ethics or past behavior of the auction house / owner. Unfortunately it appears that very few are willing to do what's right if it results in even a small amount of personal loss.

The con men are laughing all the way to the bank when this attitude prevails and anyone in the hobby with a positive brand needs to be careful associating themselves with those of questionable ethics. In business, your brand is partially determined by who you associate with...

jeff

Okay, so you won't bid on items sold by an auction house of questionable ethics. I assume you also wouldn't have a friend bid for you? Some have gone so far as to say they won't even sit at a dinner table if someone representing such an auction house is present. Do you also check to see who cards were bought from, just to insure that you don't buy from someone who buys from such auction houses? Will you eat at the same restaurants they eat at? Will you have anything to do with a bar that sells their employees a beer?

Let's find all these people and and get this hobby cleaned up properly!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Joseph_McCarthy.jpg/200px-Joseph_McCarthy.jpg

[Ladder7]

Right, bash the guy for his honorable stance. What are you smokin?

:rolleyes:

[Matthew H]

Right, bash the guy for his honorable stance. What are you smokin?

:rolleyes:

IMO this Goldin guy was just an easy target for these "hobby crusaders". Just take a look at the topic vintagetoppsguy started... a pretty big deal if you ask me... you can hear crickets in that thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Okay, so you won't bid on items sold by an auction house of questionable ethics. I assume you also wouldn't have a friend bid for you? Some have gone so far as to say they won't even sit at a dinner table if someone representing such an auction house is present. Do you also check to see who cards were bought from, just to insure that you don't buy from someone who buys from such auction houses? Will you eat at the same restaurants they eat at? Will you have anything to do with a bar that sells their employees a beer?

Let's find all these people and and get this hobby cleaned up properly!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Joseph_McCarthy.jpg/200px-Joseph_McCarthy.jpg

The old slippery slope argument!! But to quote one of my favorite quotes, just because there's a slippery slope doesn't mean you need to ski to the bottom.

[Runscott]

Peter, I was sort of joking - I don't really think it's so slippery. Each person has their own ethics regarding this, and I definitely appreciate those who are looking out for the hobby.