A couple of "beauties" that did not go cheaply

[RichardSimon]

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/12242610_multi-famous-baseball-player-autographed-baseball-w

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/12242650_multi-famous-baseball-player-autographed-baseball

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is one of those "beauties."

I emailed Drew Max/Marc Goldman and asked "If Drew Max performed a forensic examination of the ink?"

Where is the aging on that ink Mr. Drew Max? The autographs are horrific, but "What about the ink, Mr. Drew Max? Did you physically examine the autographs on this baseball, Mr. Drew Max?"


70899

70900

70901

[jgmp123]

Lovely...glad to hear that Drew will stand behind his authentications in a court of law...

[RichardSimon]

Lovely...glad to hear that Drew will stand behind his authentications in a court of law...

If you pay him a big fat fee he will.
But perhaps Mr Morales should be asked, "how did that turn out."

[BrandonG]

The second Ruth ball is on eBay right now. And just FYI, both of those Harridge Baseballs are not genuine. I feel like calling Drew directly...Pretty ridiculous.

[thetruthisoutthere]

If you pay him a big fat fee he will.
But perhaps Mr Morales should be asked, "how did that turn out."

Exactly. Ask Bryan Slaven the amount of money he paid Chris Morales to testify in court on behalf of Autograph Central (Lovert Bassett vs. Bryan Slaven, Case No. 10 SC 3866).

And in the end, the Morales testimony was struck and Mr. Slaven had to refund Mr. Lovert Bassett $7, 345.00.

[thetruthisoutthere]

The second Ruth ball is on eBay right now. And just FYI, both of those Harridge Baseballs are not genuine. I feel like calling Drew directly...Pretty ridiculous.

Here is the auction you are referring to, Brandon. It, too, is authenticated by Drew Max who calls himself a FDE (Forensic Document Examiner).

Aside from the autographs being horrific, can you please explain what makes both baseballs not genuine? Thank you, Brandon.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-HALL-OF-FAME-AUTOGRAPHED-BASEBALL-SIGNED-BABE-RUTH-LOU-GEHRIG-w-AAU-COA-/271031536319?pt=US_Autographs&hash=item3f1abd0abf

70912

70913

70914

70915

70916

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is the Lou Gehrig from the above auction. Look how slowly drawn that garbage is. The seller is asking $35K or Best Offer? Seriously?

70917

[BrandonG]

There are obvious characteristics in the stamping that show me this is transfer type of application. The ink quality is not typical of stamping that was used for that 1934-1939 model, it shows dotting and inkjet characteristics. second, it is not at all crisp like genuine models, even worn stamping is still legible and crisp even if its faded. Third, in the bottom logo from the pictures you posted, in the "Cushioned Cork Center" stamping, the "K" in Cork, and the "C" in Center are touching and nearly on top of each other. This is what happens when a transfer type of stamp bends to the curvature of the ball whereas the sheet or transfer is flat, and when pressed onto a round surface it causes it to bend and overlap (think of when you used to use patterns on paper to carve pumpkins). Fourth, The ball itself is worn only behind the stamping areas, this is done so the ink doesn't bleed, but it's a complete giveaway. Look at the "Q" in "Quality", it has bled because the ball was too slick in that area to hold the ink. This would never happen with the metal stamps and ink quality used in that era. Also the leather and stitching are not consistent with that model ball.

PS, did I mention my authentication service yet? lol :D

[thetruthisoutthere]

There are obvious characteristics in the stamping that show me this is transfer type of application. The ink quality is not typical of stamping that was used for that 1934-1939 model, it shows dotting and inkjet characteristics. second, it is not at all crisp like genuine models, even worn stamping is still legible and crisp even if its faded. Third, in the bottom logo from the pictures you posted, in the "Cushioned Cork Center" stamping, the "K" in Cork, and the "C" in Center are touching and nearly on top of each other. This is what happens when a transfer type of stamp bends to the curvature of the ball whereas the sheet or transfer is flat, and when pressed onto a round surface it causes it to bend and overlap (think of when you used to use patterns on paper to carve pumpkins). Fourth, The ball itself is worn only behind the stamping areas, this is done so the ink doesn't bleed, but it's a complete giveaway. Look at the "Q" in "Quality", it has bled because the ball was too slick in that area to hold the ink. This would never happen with the metal stamps and ink quality used in that era. Also the leather and stitching are not consistent with that model ball.

PS, did I mention my authentication service yet? lol :D

Brandon, thank you very much. Would you mind if I sent that information directly to Drew Max and Marc Goldman?

Also, feel free to advertise your new Baseball Authentication Service as often as you like.

[Mr. Zipper]

There are obvious characteristics in the stamping that show me this is transfer type of application. The ink quality is not typical of stamping that was used for that 1934-1939 model, it shows dotting and inkjet characteristics. second, it is not at all crisp like genuine models, even worn stamping is still legible and crisp even if its faded. Third, in the bottom logo from the pictures you posted, in the "Cushioned Cork Center" stamping, the "K" in Cork, and the "C" in Center are touching and nearly on top of each other. This is what happens when a transfer type of stamp bends to the curvature of the ball whereas the sheet or transfer is flat, and when pressed onto a round surface it causes it to bend and overlap (think of when you used to use patterns on paper to carve pumpkins). Fourth, The ball itself is worn only behind the stamping areas, this is done so the ink doesn't bleed, but it's a complete giveaway. Look at the "Q" in "Quality", it has bled because the ball was too slick in that area to hold the ink. This would never happen with the metal stamps and ink quality used in that era. Also the leather and stitching are not consistent with that model ball.

PS, did I mention my authentication service yet? lol :D

Bravo. Real expertise and analysis... not meaningless forensic mumble jumbo.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Bravo. Real expertise and analysis... not meaningless forensic mumble jumbo.

+1

So tell us Mr. Max; what forensic examinations did you perform on those two baseballs?

Did you first attempt to date the items?

Did you analyze the ink?

And finally, what exemplars did you use to authenticate those autographs as authentic?

Mr. Max, did you happen to observe how slowly drawn those autographs were penned? And with that humongous-sized magnifying glass you use........

[Wymers Auction]

I think Ruth signed that ball with a tattoo gun!!!!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Ebay has removed the auction.

[RichardSimon]

Ebay has removed the auction.

They are acting very quickly recently to remove the junk.
What a shame for that poor seller, no chance now for his $30,000 profit :D:D.
I guess he will now have to go to one of those "New Mexico or Iowa" :D auctions online and be lucky to get his money back.

[thetruthisoutthere]

They are acting very quickly recently to remove the junk.
What a shame for that poor seller, no chance now for his $30,000 profit :D:D.
I guess he will now have to go to one of those "New Mexico or Iowa" :D auctions online and be lucky to get his money back.

I'm sure the seller will be back on one of those auction platforms to dump it.

Then again, maybe the seller will take the Goldman letter to heart and..........

Of course, it will probably cost him 2K for that request,

[shelly]

As I remember Drew Max's company used to advertise that they had a Million dollar policy from Lloyd's of London. This was to prove to you that if there was anything wrong with there examination you where covered. I guess Lloyd's figured out what was going on and dropped them like a hot potato. That of course is if he really had a policy. I will say this for Drew. When I sent him some of the Marino's pieces he hit fifty percent vs The Donald's 100%

[TyrusRCobb]

This thread is fascinating. I suppose, as a new collector, the lesson I take from all of this is you can't really trust the big guys. I've already discovered that sometimes you can't trust the little guys either. Does this mean that good collectors must have a hint of paranoia to go along with their knowledge base? Or do good, honest collectors simply form a community with other good, honest collectors?

[David Atkatz]

Drew Max is not one of the "big guys."

[thetruthisoutthere]

This thread is fascinating. I suppose, as a new collector, the lesson I take from all of this is you can't really trust the big guys. I've already discovered that sometimes you can't trust the little guys either. Does this mean that good collectors must have a hint of paranoia to go along with their knowledge base? Or do good, honest collectors simply form a community with other good, honest collectors?

Are you referring to Drew Max as one of the "big guys?"

[RichardSimon]

Are you referring to Drew Max as one of the "big guys?"

Don't be so quick to put him down, he is a TV star and you are not :D:D.

[David Atkatz]

Don't be so quick to put him down, he is a TV star and you are not :D:D.YouTube notwithstanding. :)

[thetruthisoutthere]

Don't be so quick to put him down, he is a TV star and you are not :D:D.

You got me there, Richard. Even my 2-3 hours of being interviewed by Armen Keteyian all ended up on the cutting room floor...:confused:

[shelly]

I can understand that.He was looking for a pretty face and you my friend did not meet that standard.:):):):):eek:

[thetruthisoutthere]

I can understand that.He was looking for a pretty face and you my friend did not meet that standard.:):):):):eek:

Is that why you were in the shadows, Shelly...:D:D:D:D

I mean Eddie...:D:D:D:D

[sylbry]

The seller should make a trip to Las Vegas. I can think of a pawn shop that believes Drew Max is credible. Should have no time selling it for a nice profit.

[BrandonG]

The seller should make a trip to Las Vegas. I can think of a pawn shop that believes Drew Max is credible. Should have no time selling it for a nice profit.

That would be so awesome to see!!!

[jgmp123]

The seller should make a trip to Las Vegas. I can think of a pawn shop that believes Drew Max is credible. Should have no time selling it for a nice profit.

+10!!!

[TyrusRCobb]

Are you referring to Drew Max as one of the "big guys?"

When I clicked on the link provided by the OP I was directed to what seems to be a rather large auction house. I was referring to the auction house as "the big guys." In point of fact, and showing my obvious ignorance about collecting, I haven't the slightest idea who Drew Max is. Having said that I'm going to look him up.

[shelly]

Chris, the reason I was in the shadows is that the light would have bounced off my head. :D:eek:
Ty. when you look him up please don't throw up.

[RichardSimon]

The seller should make a trip to Las Vegas. I can think of a pawn shop that believes Drew Max is credible. Should have no time selling it for a nice profit.

I would watch that show for the first and only time if I knew that was going to happen.

[TyrusRCobb]

Chris, the reason I was in the shadows is that the light would have bounced off my head. :D:eek:
Ty. when you look him up please don't throw up.

So having looked him up and seeing that he is on Pawn Stars is it fair to assume that he is in cahoots with the pawn shop? Perhaps cahoots is the wrong word. Rather, is he being paid to see what the pawn shop wants him to see?

[travrosty]

they have him on the show because he is local, like the card shop guy, the vintage toy guy, and the hotrod restorer guy, and almost all the other consultants they bring in.

they tried getting someone out of state in there on autographs and he screwed up just as bad as anyone ever has. so might as well save the travel expenses and use the local guy.

They are hearing from 20 different sources who is the best and who can and can't authenticate. they bring in someone else, and they get it in their ear even more, so they figure might as well go with the guy from vegas because no matter who they choose they keep hearing the same thing, criticism about the guy's ability, so they figure they can't win, but they need to bring in somebody.

They are not fighting the autograph wars, they are putting on a reality show.

They get the item lined up first then call in Drew, he has ample time to look at the auto before he even strolls in the front door.

[thetruthisoutthere]

they have him on the show because he is local, like the card shop guy, the vintage toy guy, and the hotrod restorer guy, and almost all the other consultants they bring in.

they tried getting someone out of state in there on autographs and he screwed up just as bad as anyone ever has. so might as well save the travel expenses and use the local guy.

They are hearing from 20 different sources who is the best and who can and can't authenticate. they bring in someone else, and they get it in their ear even more, so they figure might as well go with the guy from vegas because no matter who they choose they keep hearing the same thing, criticism about the guy's ability, so they figure they can't win, but they need to bring in somebody.

They are not fighting the autograph wars, they are putting on a reality show.

They get the item lined up first then call in Drew, he has ample time to look at the auto before he even strolls in the front door.

Contrary to what Travis just posted, no one has screwed up more than Drew Max.

[shelly]

Travis, reality or not the guy is just bad. I think that they owe it to the rest of the autograph community to say we do not stand behind his opinion. People that watch this crap think that he is really some one that knows what he his doing.
Drew if you are reading this I would like to have you or your partner answer. Like I said before I gave you credit for getting half of what I sent you correct. It is like a coin flip heads or tails.

[packs]

I've posted this before but this local San Francisco shop's stock is made up entirely of Drew Max forgeries.

Here is the shop: http://www.antiquitiesca.com

I don't know if the owner is in on it but he seemed like a pretty huge jerk the last time I was there letting him know the same person signed all 3 signatures on his Jimi Hendrix album.

He also insists no one take photos of his pieces. Most likely so he can continue to sell fakes. Everything comes with an AAU sticker on it.

[Deertick]

Anyone else scream at the TV when someone brought in an Elvis contract? The first shot seen was abundantly clear that it was a COPY of a signed contract. Yet Rick calls in Drew, Drew takes out his personal Hubble.....GAGGGGGG!

[shelly]

If I am not mistaken this is the same company that was thrown out of Disney Land, Universal and Vegas. If I am wrong please accept my apology.

[Leon]

, Drew takes out his personal Hubble.....GAGGGGGG!

That's pretty funny. I think he needs a bigger magnifying glass myself. Maybe he could bring one in on a dolly or something?

[travrosty]

Contrary to what Travis just posted, no one has screwed up more than Drew Max.




john reznikoff batting zero percent on pawn stars, no one has a lower percentage than that.

people are still talking about mr. pacino. biggest screw up ever.

[travrosty]

Travis, reality or not the guy is just bad. I think that they owe it to the rest of the autograph community to say we do not stand behind his opinion. People that watch this crap think that he is really some one that knows what he his doing.
Drew if you are reading this I would like to have you or your partner answer. Like I said before I gave you credit for getting half of what I sent you correct. It is like a coin flip heads or tails.



people make the mistake that thinking if you are against one you must be for another, there are many whose opinion i dont stand behind. but the same crowd keeps saying that if you arent for the cast of characters who dont know al pacino from al ruddy, then you must be a forger or want the forgers to win.

same weak argument, painting someone as for this if they are not for that.

but the information blackout continues against the people who are authenticating these super high ticket items and when you want answers, you don't get any. Did you see haulsofshame.com lately? i see a truman signed baseball that drew max did not authenticate. but somehow the guy that did is taboo from talking as well as others can't talk about it or ask questions on how the heck that could happen? No one ever starts a thread on something like that but we see a mickey mantle or ted williams for the 50th time like we haven't seen that before?

Media and collector blackout in favor of those they like or those they are afriad of. People don't want to be blackballed from the hobby. why not investigate the fakes WHEREVER we find them? That's been my point all along.

[David Atkatz]

Also, feel free to advertise your new Baseball Authentication Service as often as you like.

I agree that it's a much-needed service, and no one is more qualified than Brendon, but...

Since when have you become a moderator or site owner?

[thetruthisoutthere]

I agree that it's a much-needed service, and no one is more qualified than Brendon, but...

Since when have you become a moderator or site owner?

Who is "Brendon," Mr. Atkatz?

[packs]

Oh great another one of those threads.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Oh great another one of those threads.

I don't apologize, Packs. If Mr. Atkatz wants to "start" something, I will no longer ignore him.

That remark of his was unnecessary.

When I wrote "Also, feel free to advertise your new Baseball Authentication Service as often as you like," it was meant as a "Thank you" to Brandon.

[packs]

I'm with you. I don't think you're the one stirring the pot.

[RichardSimon]

i'm with you. I don't think you're the one stirring the pot.

+1000
I don't know what Mr Atkatz said but if packs is upset about it, I am sure it is the usual Atkatz remark.

[BrandonG]

His response was supposed to be sort of a fun reply to my "PS, did I mention my authentication service yet? lol :D"

I didn't take it literally to start advertising all of the forum. Here, let me lighten things back up...Remember this?

[packs]

Its just annoying that when I'm trying to learn about what to stay away from in the hobby I have to deal with someone making no contribution to the thread and looking to start a fight for no reason at all.

A guy makes a helpful post that is beneficial to everyone on the board and another member thanks him for his knowledge only to be followed up by a stupid macho comment that boils down to "Know your role, rook." Give me a break.

[thetruthisoutthere]

His response was supposed to be sort of a fun reply to my "PS, did I mention my authentication service yet? lol :D"

I didn't take it literally to start advertising all of the forum. Here, let me lighten things back up...Remember this?

I'm sure everyone here, except for one person, knew that, Brandon.

That graphic is hilarious!!!!

[David Atkatz]

+1000
I don't know what Mr Atkatz said but if packs is upset about it, I am sure it is the usual Atkatz remark.Ahhh... Dick has to chime right in. Even when he (self-admittedly) doesn't know WTF he's talking about!

[packs]

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but I hope you realize that people get annoyed when you post these kinds of things. I'm sure you don't care but the board is for everyone.

[earlywynnfan]

I might as well chime in, too. David, are you adding ANYTHING to this thread?

Please don't comment on any contributions (or lack thereof) of anyone else.
Please don't complain about certain people calling you Mr. Atkaz.

Just answer me this: are you adding anything to this, or are you just trying to be a pain in the ass?

Ken

[David Atkatz]

Trying!? ;)

(Not to this thread, no.)

[David Atkatz]

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but I hope you realize that people get annoyed when you post these kinds of things. I'm sure you don't care but the board is for everyone.What kind of things? You all have the right to comment and/or criticise my "moderator" comment--you read it. But to say "I don't know what he wrote, but I'm sure he's full of shit." is OK?

And it's great to learn about the hobby. But do you really need to be told (over, and over, and over...) to stay away from anything Drew Max authenticated?

[packs]

No but I would like to learn about how to spot a fabricated baseball. I'd also like to find out who on the board is the best source to seek when I'm looking for information on vintage baseballs. Two things I learned in this thread without you picking a fight with someone over nothing.

You pushed the buttons in this thread. No one else.

[David Atkatz]

You're right. Which is why I haven't tried to defend myself. You read my post, you thought it was uncalled for, and I have no argument with that.

But if you haven't read it, don't comment about it. (Come to think of it, that's pretty sound advice in general.)

[earlywynnfan]

Are you that atttention-starved that you have nothing better to do than come on here and be a jerk?? Do you have a quota of how many threads you can derail? You can't find anywhere to put your intelligence and computer skills to work in a positive endeavor?

No offense, but I think you need to add "pathetic" under "arrogant" "boorish" "bully" and "angry" on your resume.

I've tried to see your side before, I try to be understanding of people who don't think like I do. But now, just chalk me up as one more who wishes you'd just go away. (And don't think I don't know that brings a smile to your needy face.)

Ken

[thetruthisoutthere]

You're right. Which is why I haven't tried to defend myself. You read my post, you thought it was uncalled for, and I have no argument with that.

But if you haven't read it, don't comment about it. (Come to think of it, that's pretty sound advice in general.)

If you're sick of reading about Drew Max, then why are you reading this thread?

Are you here just to start trouble? Are you here to antagonize? Or are you here just for the attention?

[shelly]

Why would any of you waste your time with a very sick man. He needs help and just wont listen to anyone. Like I said in my last post regarding him. Mean vicious , abusive and a total manic etc.
.Just to make sure my good PhD this is being said by a felon. So if you have anything else left to say in your sick sadistic life, please call me Mr. Felon.

[David Atkatz]

I will say this for Drew. When I sent him some of the Marino's pieces he hit fifty percent vs The Donald's 100%So to whom did you send the 50% that Drew rejected? (I'm sure you weren't about to throw away half your profit.)

[Wymers Auction]

Why would any of you waste your time with a very sick man. He needs help and just wont listen to anyone. Like I said in my last post regarding him. Mean vicious , abusive and a total manic etc.
.Just to make sure my good PhD this is being said by a felon. So if you have anything else left to say in your sick sadistic life, please call me Mr. Felon.
I think we should refer to him as the Nutty Professor!!!

[earlywynnfan]

So to whom did you send the 50% that Drew rejected? (I'm sure you weren't about to throw away half your profit.)

I'm sure you know this already, but Shelly didn't send them to Drew to get certs to sell. He was testing his ability to spot known fakes.

[RichardSimon]

I think we should refer to him as the Nutty Professor!!!

+1

So Mr. David Atkatz, Mr. Eddie Murphy and Mr. Jerry Lewis have something in common :D.

[David Atkatz]

So Mr. David Atkatz, Mr. Eddie Murphy and Mr. Jerry Lewis have something in common :D.Thanks, Richard! That's pretty august company!

[David Atkatz]

I'm sure you know this already, but Shelly didn't send them to Drew to get certs to sell. He was testing his ability to spot known fakes.Wasn't that what he told the FBI when they caught him?

Seriously, though, sometimes I confuse the times Shelly was ripping off collectors and the times he was protecting them.

[earlywynnfan]

Wasn't that what he told the FBI when they caught him?

Seriously, though, sometimes I confuse the times Shelly was ripping off collectors and the times he was protecting them.

What might help your confusion is this: every time he posts something, post right after him "Felon! Felon!"

I think this will help.

Ken

[shelly]

David,
I have no idea why you have such an interest in me. I am not one of the students that feel that you don't even deserve the title of PhD. I do know that you have no idea what was said to the FBI by me or anyone else.The other thing you might not know about me is that I am not a sick and deranged person like yourself
It is hard to deal with someone that is mad at the world and the only way to get attention is to insult anyone that you feel is vulnerable. I will repeat this for the last time I am and always will be a felon. You on the other hand will always be just a tiny sick man who has little life. I would never like bring up anyone's family but I would love to know how they can stand you.
It is obvious that at least some of your students could not. Here are six of the quotes from some of the students taken right off the rating website:

"The most common phrase that Atkatz (notice he does not use the Dr. word either) uses during this class is "How do I say this?" because he is unable to explain anything. He is not prepared and cannot hide it. (sounds like a guy who bought a bogus 1927 ball because he was not prepared). He is not helpful in any way, makes many mistakes in class, and confuses all students. Do not take this class unless you are prepared to teach yourself."
--
"Terrible teacher, makes fun of students who ask legitimate questions. Arrogant. Uncaring advisor, acts like you're wasting his time. I expected to be a physics major. After this instructor, I changed my mind." (that arrogant and uncaring part sure sounds like it could have come from a Net54 user).
--
"worst teacher i've ever had. avoid at all costs, you won't learn a thing. i had my friend go into class for me wearing my clothes, went withough a hitch."
--
"worst teacher i can remember, dating back to kindergarten."
--
"Stay away."
--
"One of the worst classes I ever took in my yrs at skidmore. He sucks big time."
--
9 out of 12 rated Mr Atkatz as poor. And this from a student body that only gave 6 or 7 ratings to most teachers. His overall score was 1.8 out of 5.
That my dear man is worse than Drew Max.
--

[David Atkatz]

I never cheated anyone. I never ratted on my partners.

And I never did time.

[David Atkatz]

I would never like bring up anyone's family but I would love to know how they can stand you.LOL! "I would never bring up anyone's family... but I'll just do it now."

Shelly, I don't give a good goddamn what you say about me. If you get your jollies posting six quotes from seventeen-year-olds I gave poor grades to, go right ahead. As Bob Dylan said, "Call me any name you like. I will never deny it."

But don't ever mention my family again.

[David Atkatz]

What might help your confusion is this: every time he posts something, post right after him "Felon! Felon!"

I think this will help.

KenIf by "every time" you mean "once," OK.

[JimStinson]

I have a REALLY good idea ! having watched some of the posts on this board and having been a professional boxing judge. Let me propose the following , I will promote and manage either party and we can engage in either a "cage match" or "Marquis de Queensbury" rules contest ....."PLEASE NO WAGERING" but all proceeds will be given to Leon to continue the Forum. Its for a good cause and may the best man win....lets have a clean break ! Men ! fight

[shelly]

David,
Please do not threaten me. You have come on this site and have not stopped insulting me from day one and I will not stop doing what ever is necessary to end your insults.
Now answer this.
Would you be so kind to please inform this thread where you have any info that I ratted anyone out. I was arrested with 26 other people and the first thing out of the FBI's mouth was "Wayne Brey is our informant". If you have any additional info please share it or shut your mouth.
I didn't realize that people that went to college no matter what age there are not entitled to voice their opinion be it good or bad. I on the one hand am old enough to know some one that is sick and really needs help.
And why say that those students who wrote about you are a bunch of 17 year olds? Was that all you taught? If that was all you taught (freshmen) there must have been a good reason. The comments on that site are anonymous, you don't know if they were 17 year old freshmen or 22 year old seniors. If you taught first semester students then the school must have not had much faith in your PhD.

[David Atkatz]

Where did I threaten you? I told you to never mention my family again.
A threat is when you're told what will happen if you do. Did I ever say anything about consequences?

How do I know you're a rat? Operation Bullpen, page 209. I quote:

"Shelly was so convinced Wayne was wearing [a wire] that he began speaking past him and directly to the FBI as if there were federal agents listening on the other end. 'Come talk to me,' he said. 'You got me. Now let's get some of the big guys...'"

I invite everyone to read the book. It wasn't thirty seconds after you knew you were caught that you were offering to spill your guts.

Pathetic.

And the fact that you brought up my family just shows what a true POS you are. Nothing more needs to be said.

[shelly]

Who are big guys that i ratted out? Please name them.

[David Atkatz]

Don't need to. You showed your true colors. (And you showed them again by bringing up family.)

I'm done with you.

[shelly]

Thank God.