A possible solution for the PSA 8 T206 Wagner?

[Leon]

I was just speaking with a good hobby friend about the PSA 8 T206 Wagner, and the implications the current news could have. That being said I told him of a possible solution and he thought it could work. We know PSA grades some strip series with a number and the caveat on the flip of : (Hand Cut).

I could see that potentially working for this card, do you? Of course purists might say no, but if it were to say PSA 8 Hand Cut it could take the stigma away, be correct (if the new info is true) and possibly the card wouldn't lose value (could even gain?). It is still the nicest looking one in the hobby, regardless of what is done. I am going to limit the different poll responses on purpose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Was it cut from a sheet, then trimmed, or is it a factory card that was trimmed? If it's a factory card, the hand cut designation won't work, because it refers as you know to cards that were MEANT to be hand cut.

[calvindog]

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab? Everyone knows (or will soon know) exactly what occurred to the card. It's not like it will somehow slip through the cracks at a TPG and be given a numerical grade.

[christopher.herman]

Was it cut from a sheet, then trimmed, or is it a factory card that was trimmed? If it's a factory card, the hand cut designation won't work, because it refers as you know to cards that were MEANT to be hand cut.

Agreed. A trimmed/hand cut/machine cut T206 (after the original factory cut) is Auth, no matter how nicely it presents or who the player is. PSA is at best negligent here or at worst complicit in fraud.

Chris.

[benjulmag]

I was just speaking with a good hobby friend about the PSA 8 T206 Wagner, and the implications the current news could have. That being said I told him of a possible solution and he thought it could work. We know PSA grades some strip series with a number and the caveat on the flip of : (Hand Cut).

I could see that potentially working for this card, do you? Of course purists might say no, but if it were to say PSA 8 Hand Cut it could take the stigma away, be correct (if the new info is true) and possibly the card wouldn't lose value (could even gain?). It is still the nicest looking one in the hobby, regardless of what is done. I am going to limit the different poll responses on purpose.

The implications of this would be that collectors with full-production-run uncut sheets should then be able to cut up the sheets and have the cards receive numerical grades (with appropriate designations on the slab).

Further implications would be that hand-cut factory issues (e.g., T210s that exhibit wavy borders) should receive numerical grades (with appropriate designation on the slab), as should all undersized cards that are not suspected of being trimmed (designation on slab to say to effect "factory-issued undersized card").

In raising these issues, I'm not saying all or any of this would be a bad thing, only that I don't see how one could make an exception for only the "8" Wagner.

[e107collector]

Corey,

Nicely put, I agree with your post.

Also, does anyone happen to have an enlarged, high res photo of the PSA 8 Wagner, that they would be willing to post? I can only find smaller photos online. I'd like to see the borders close up. How drastic is the "trim job."

Tony

[barrysloate]

Aren't all trimmed cards hand cut? None of the card doctors send their cards to a factory- they hand cut them themselves.

This card was cut to deceive. I don't see how hand cut would apply. It's trimmed. Period. It's not a PSA 8 in any way whatsoever.

[novakjr]

Regardless of what grade, or trim status, or proof sheet, whatever, this card transcends all of that. It stands alone, as THE most famous individual copy of the THE most famous card EVER made.. No matter what the status of the slab on this card, it's value will hold, and continue to rise in value with each transaction.. The current owner paid 2.8 million, and I guarantee it does not leave his ownership for less than that.

PSA 8, PSA 8(hand cut), PSA authentic trimmed, whatever, are all irrelevant here...As long as McNall/Gretzky remains on the slab, the card's history will always be available for all to see.. And that's exactly what people will pay for, it's history.

I think irrelevancy should be an option on this poll.

[calvindog]

Agreed with what Barry wrote.

Though I'm not so sure the value of the card continues to rise at least in the near future.

[Leon]

The implications of this would be that collectors with full-production-run uncut sheets should then be able to cut up the sheets and have the cards receive numerical grades (with appropriate designations on the slab).

Further implications would be that hand-cut factory issues (e.g., T210s that exhibit wavy borders) should receive numerical grades (with appropriate designation on the slab), as should all undersized cards that are not suspected of being trimmed (designation on slab to say to effect "factory-issued undersized card").

In raising these issues, I'm not saying all or any of this would be a bad thing, only that I don't see how one could make an exception for only the "8" Wagner.

First of all I think this already happens and has happened, per the comment about sheets. Just take a sheet of strip cards, cut them, send them in...and I think there is a good chance they get graded numerically. Note, I have never done or tried it. I am not aware of any T206 sheets except the one strip. Maybe it could be a change in the way grades of hand cut cards are done. I know for a fact PSA already grades W502 (and I am sure others series too) with both a number and the 'hand cut" designation.

[novakjr]

First of all I think this already happens and has happened, per the comment about sheets. Just take a sheet of strip cards, cut them, send them in...and I think there is a good chance they get graded numerically. Note, I have never done or tried it. I am not aware of any T206 sheets except the one strip. Maybe it could be a change in the way grades of hand cut cards are done. I know for a fact PSA already grades W502 (and I am sure others series too) with both a number and the 'hand cut" designation.

I think PSA will "only" grade hand-cut cards with a numerical grade, if "hand-cut" was the "only" way the card could be obtained.. Basically, if a factory cut was available, Hand-cuts receive no numerical grade.. I could be wrong though..

[Leon]

I think PSA will "only" grade hand-cut cards with a numerical grade, if "hand-cut" was the "only" way the card could be obtained.. Basically, if a factory cut was available, Hand-cuts receive no numerical grade.. I could be wrong though..

I understand. I am only trying to give a solution rather than just griping and saying "what if" and " now what " etc......

If this comes out factually that it was cut from a sheet, regardless if the others from the series were or were not, it would technically be correct to have hand cut on the label. Most of us in the hobby want transparency and this would potentially do it. Just having a fun debate guys.

[barrysloate]

Leon- keep in mind that strip cards were issued in panels that were meant to be cut by kids at the time of issue. Hand cutting a strip card is a natural process, and that may be why the TPG accept them and grade them.

T206's were not issued that way. They were precut in the factory. The only possible explanation for a handcut T206 is that a factory worker in 1910 brought a sheet home for his kid, who cut it up back then. And even in that scenario a TPG probably would hesitate to give such a card a numerical grade.

This T206 Wagner is different. Geez, every card that has been carefully trimmed by a card doctor looks like an 8, that's the whole reason they're trimmed. But they end up in AUTH holders (except for the ones they miss).

The T206 Wagner is nothing more than an AUTH card, although I agree it's the best looking AUTH in the hobby.

Edited to add while I was typing David said pretty much the same thing.

[CW]

I'll post my opinion before reading this thread, so it's not skewed by others (sorry if it just repeats what others have said)... I voted no because it would be preferential treatment. No other T206 carries such a label or grade. I'm not sure if I even like this labeling method (ie. "hand cut" along with a numerical grade) used on strip cards, but I can at least see why that's what PSA chooses to do with those cards. Either way, T206's are not strip cards. The only legit solution for our hobby's "Mona Lisa" is, unfortunately, either raw or in a PSA/SGC "Authentic" holder.

It's strange and ironic to think that, in a hobby where alterations are very much frowned upon as a whole, our most popular and expensive card in the hobby is, in fact, altered.

[teetwoohsix]

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab? Everyone knows (or will soon know) exactly what occurred to the card. It's not like it will somehow slip through the cracks at a TPG and be given a numerical grade.

I'm looking forward to the details, like if it was cut from the sheet, who else was on the sheet, etc.-I want details !!!!:D

I voted no, for the same reasons as everyone else.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Pat R]

The implications of this would be that collectors with full-production-run uncut sheets should then be able to cut up the sheets and have the cards receive numerical grades (with appropriate designations on the slab).

Further implications would be that hand-cut factory issues (e.g., T210s that exhibit wavy borders) should receive numerical grades (with appropriate designation on the slab), as should all undersized cards that are not suspected of being trimmed (designation on slab to say to effect "factory-issued undersized card").

In raising these issues, I'm not saying all or any of this would be a bad thing, only that I don't see how one could make an exception for only the "8" Wagner.

Correct me if I am wrong, But my understanding is there are no known
uncut sheets. If someone did come across one they would be crazy to
cut it up,That would decrease the value significantly compared to what
they would get for the individual cards.

[Leon]

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab?

So it would be technically correct. If I had 500 million dollars and bought it for 3M I could see me wanting it to be correct. But that is just me. I could also see me saying, well, this IS an exception as we don't know of any other T206s like it, verified to be cut from a sheet, so it deserves both a grade and "hand cut". Again, just giving other options here instead of going with the status quo.

[g_vezina_c55]

Agreed. A trimmed/hand cut/machine cut T206 (after the original factory cut) is Auth, no matter how nicely it presents or who the player is. PSA is at best negligent here or at worst complicit in fraud.

Chris.

X2

[alanu]

If the gretzky wagner just showed up on the market raw and no one knew the history of the card, I wonder what type of grade it would get from SGC or PSA.

[drc]

'Handcut PSA8' is an oxymoron, but it would communicate the meaning. Give the just, as it were.

Maybe they should just remove any grade and say "The Gretzy Wagner.' Maybe at this point, it's so famous it's 'beyond grading.'

Maybe the judge will sentence the card to five years a Pro holder.

[travrosty]

i voted no. cut it even more and try to resubmit for an 8.5 (handcut) then? how many hand cuts do you get?

[drc]

All this legal stuff that is going on may just add the card's fame and celebrity. It's world's record sales vale may just keep chugging along.

I mean when people found out the Mona Lisa was really Leonardo da Vinci in drag, it's value still remained high.

When they found out the John Hancock on the Declaration of Independence was a rubber stamp and he was vacationing in Jamaica at the time, and the other signatures were later traced over in sharpie, it still remand a priceless piece of Americana.

[Leon]

These are all fair comments so far. I appreciate everyone's point of view. It was just a thought :).

[Vintageclout]

I support Leon's idea as a somewhat "ALTERNATIVE" solution to this conundrum, especially since this "Card" represents the cornerstone of our hobby. As "Calvindog" correctly stated, virtually every hobbyst knows the true history of the PSA 8 Wagner. Regardless of any upcoming legal testimony, no "quick fix" will ever reverse the card's absolute origin. However, I do feel Leon's suggestion merits serious attention only due to the fact that the PSA 8 Wagner is NOT your everyday card, with its singular status possibly worthy of a TPG exception. With that said, EVERY response on this post can certainly be justfied as a correct approach.

Best Regards,
Joe T.

[benjulmag]

Correct me if I am wrong, But my understanding is there are no known
uncut sheets. If someone did come across one they would be crazy to
cut it up,That would decrease the value significantly compared to what
they would get for the individual cards.

I agree there are no known uncut T206 sheets. The point I was making pertains to uncut sheets of any issue, many of which are known to exist.

[benjulmag]

If the gretzky wagner just showed up on the market raw and no one knew the history of the card, I wonder what type of grade it would get from SGC or PSA.

I would be shocked if it received anything other than an "A". And that is the thing that to me has always been the most perplexing about this whole saga. While it is all well and good that Mastro purportedly is coming clean about what he did to the card, that admission is not necessary to know the card has been altered. Just look at it close up. It exhibits every tell-tale sign of trimming (to an experienced grader) that it is preposterous to believe it could receive a numerical grade if submitted raw. I remember vividly walking to Sotheby's to attend the Copeland sale when the rumors where rampant that the card was trimmed. I remember telling the person I was with at the time that IMO one could see the trim by looking at the blowup in the catalog.

[philliesphan]

PSA and SGC grade Zee-Nuts, RedMans and Hires cards without the coupons / tabs attached, and that is the same thing as hand cut to me.

[travrosty]

this card doesnt need to be saved. the second best wagner should move into #1 place now. that is the card we should worship as the cornerstone of the hobby.

what's wrong with that? nothing. psa doesnt need help saving themselves from the situation they are in by lessening the effect of their 8 misgrade by making it an 8 qualifier grade instead of dropping it to zero where egg will be on face. if tons of people could see this card was trimmed for years, then why couldn't psa when they graded it?

the hobby is not going to fall apart because this card is A instead of an 8.

next in line should just take his place as first. that's the fair solution. why should that card get short shrift? it shouldn't. It played by the rules and it should have been number one all along, and justice should put it at first where it belongs. And I dont even know where it resides or if a card grading company has graded it. It's just the right thing to do.

[HRBAKER]

A non-issue to me anyway, don't most all of us regard it as an "A" anyway. Makes no difference what the slab says and the fact that is has been altered/hand cut doesn't seem to matter to the litany of folks who continue to pay more for it.

[Ladder7]

Would be a crafty tactic for PSA. Save face, a refund (in theory) and create another scale bumpsters of A strips may resubmit for. Ca-chiiing


Personally, He had a great run. But it's now over for old' Wags.l

[travrosty]

Would be a crafty tactic for PSA. Save face, a refund (in theory) and create another scale bumpsters of A strips may resubmit for. Ca-chiiing


Personally, He had a great run. But it's now over for old' Wags.l




agreed, a solution for who? psa?

trim any oversized wagner to make the corners sharper and then claim it came from a sheet and was hand cut, and get a higher grade with a hand cut qualifier. they should just stick to giving a grade to non trimmed cards and bump this out of there back to A where it belongs even if it means eating crow.

[William Todd]

I agree with what Barry and Leon have said as well as many others. The interesting aside from all of this is that many higher graded cards have been trimmed and sit in high grade holders, like the Wagner. It should send questions throughout the graded card industry. As one who has collected since the late 80's and now is looking for original cards, the quest brings added challenges.

Like the Wagner, the top graded altered cards still carry a high premium. Let the buyer beware.

[Matthew H]

Maybe the next time it's sold the AH can describe it as "a nice collector grade example"

[kkkkandp]

"All this legal stuff that is going on may just add the card's fame and celebrity. It's world's record sales vale may just keep chugging along."

If you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. The card was altered in a manner to deceive. It belongs in a "A" holder.

That having been said, it is still a damned pretty pig....um, card. Its subject, eye appeal and notoriety may still result in it bringing a higher price than an altered card warrants the next time it sells, but I think its days as a million-dollar card are behind it.

[oldjudge]

Kevin--I would be happy to take the other side of that bet

Could someone educate me on this. Did Mastro but a strip of cards, or the Wagner card already cut from a strip? If it is the latter, did he simply trim a trimmed card? If the former, wasn't he trimming a card from an already trimmed strip? Either way, wasn't he, in a way, shooting a corpse?

[travrosty]

it was evidently from a sheet, hand cut, but oversized and wavy edges. as legend goes, he trimmed it down further to straight edges.

[Matthew H]

Jay, there's a pic somewhere of the card before the last trim... It was more obviously hand cut before, in my opinion.

I still think it will sell for 7 figures. It seems like it's been in the hands of investors, not really any collectors, for the last 20 years.

[travrosty]

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_62.html


you can see it here, looks like bulge at upper right and also, wavy in other places.

[mark evans]

The card should be graded "Authentic." But, consistent with current practice (for example, the Lionel Carter collection), it should be further characterized. Most appropriate is the "Mastro Wagner." :D

Looking forward to dinner....

[Danny Smith]

My opinion is that it doesnt matter how it grades now for future buyers. It is the most famous card in the world and this publicity will only make it more famous/notorious, which ultimately will increase it's "value" (ie what someone will pay for it).

[terjung]

I'm not really sure what the "news" is with this card. Why is it being viewed any differently now than before? I realize why it is being discussed now, but has a single person's viewpoint on the card changed over what they thought about it last month? Should it be in an authentic slab? All indications point to yes. Will it ever be? I sincerely doubt it.

It is an interesting corollary to the main case, but really is, at most, just an exhibit, isn't it? PSA isn't named as a defendent in the case, are they?

[ls7plus]

Regardless of what grade, or trim status, or proof sheet, whatever, this card transcends all of that. It stands alone, as THE most famous individual copy of the THE most famous card EVER made.. No matter what the status of the slab on this card, it's value will hold, and continue to rise in value with each transaction.. The current owner paid 2.8 million, and I guarantee it does not leave his ownership for less than that.

PSA 8, PSA 8(hand cut), PSA authentic trimmed, whatever, are all irrelevant here...As long as McNall/Gretzky remains on the slab, the card's history will always be available for all to see.. And that's exactly what people will pay for, it's history.

I think irrelevancy should be an option on this poll.

Couldn't have said it better myself, David, although I made a stab at it in another related thread. And you know what, its status, and how it got it, does not hurt the hobby at all!

You guys are always s-o-o-o-o o interesting!

Larry

[doug.goodman]

At this point what's the difference what is on the slab? Everyone knows (or will soon know) exactly what occurred to the card. It's not like it will somehow slip through the cracks at a TPG and be given a numerical grade.

I agree completely.

The slab could say 1976 Donruss Felipe Alou on it, and it's still "the" card.

Doug

[Rickyy]

Whatever the true nature/origin of this card...it shouldn't be treated no different just because its a T206 Wagner....


Ricky Y

[drc]

The stated condition on the label should not be based on qualities other than the condition of the card. The fame or value of the card should be neither here nor there. If the stated condition is based on the fame, value or similar such stuff, the grading system could be defined as corrupt-- as well as dishonest.

Having said that, there are honest variations in grades names. A card can be labelled either Nmt OC or Vg. Another can be labeled authentic or poor. And the card owner often gets the choice of which term goes on the label. So some linguistic creativity and personal taste is allowed in the labeling system and most hobbyists see it as above board. Some things can be described in more than one way.

[barrysloate]

In this discussion a number of posters have said it wouldn't matter if the label were changed to AUTH, because every previous buyer had to know the card was trimmed, and still paid a record price for it. But I don't think that's entirely accurate.

I believe every previous buyer heard rumors that it was trimmed, and very easily could have decided that the rumors might not be true and that the card was good until proven otherwise.

Now the status of the card may change from "rumored" to "confirmed." Might that change people's perception and dissuade future buyers from setting the next world record?

[benjulmag]

In this discussion a number of posters have said it wouldn't matter if the label were changed to AUTH, because every previous buyer had to know the card was trimmed, and still paid a record price for it. But I don't think that's entirely accurate.

I believe every previous buyer heard rumors that it was trimmed, and very easily could have decided that the rumors might not be true and that the card was good until proven otherwise.

Now the status of the card may change from "rumored" to "confirmed." Might that change people's perception and dissuade future buyers from setting the next world record?

If in fact reholding the card as an "A" does not materially impact the value of the card, that would be unprecedented. A's typically sell for a small percentage of 8's and while the notoriety of the card arguably will bump the price somewhat, it's hard to fathom the card selling for anything close to what it has in the past.

Several years ago the sister card to this Wagner, the Plank that was purportedly cut from the same sheet, sold for a small fraction of what it would have sold for had it been graded based on its appearance (i.e, an 8). It was a gorgeous card with colors that were noticeably stronger than the colors on most other Planks. At the time of the sale I suspect the great majority of potential bidders knew its history. Yet the grade on the holder won out.

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.

[kkkkandp]

Jay:

I think part of the reason "The" Wagner continued to set record prices was because each new owner held out hope that the rumors were, in fact, rumors and they would actually be acquiring the finest known, unaltered Wagner in the world.

If it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this card has been altered, it doesn't diminish its notoriety, but it does diminish its actual technical grade (for what that is worth). To those who buy something for the sake of saying they own the thing that is acknowledged by everyone as being the best (subjective valuation, I know) something in the world, it will have lost some of that edge.

I probably phrased my previous price comment poorly. It's still beautiful, it's still collectible, and it's still way out of my price range, but I don't think the next owner will raise the price bar on it yet again.

Kevin

[brass_rat]

*IF* the card is reholdered, I sure hope that PSA slabs the original PSA 8 label and auctions it off. Maybe they would give first auction house dibs to some select individuals.

:)

Steve

[travrosty]

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.



Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

If we don't then we are saying that this collector, this card, this grade, in this instance, gets a pass, gets preferential treatment, and that is dangerous precedent.

It allows for more of it in the future, and like in autographs, we have been fighting this type of thing for years and years and it is the apathy of some who wish the status quo to continue or don't care one way or another that makes it harder and more drawn out to insist on reform so the hobby can show everyone that it has integrity.

if you are a guy getting a '70 reggie jackson 2nd year card graded, or a honus wagner t206, you are going to get the same service under the same standard and one card isn't worthy of fudging the numbers more than another.

but if billy crystal says, "this card is maaaaaavelous" so let's not insist it get graded according to the rules and standards, then it's our own fault and it will just take longer for reforms to come about.

autographs are a mess because of this and i would hope cards take the lead in insisting on integrity and labeling things an A, when they are an A, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe we get blinded by this one card so much we fall all over ourselves and we don't want the card to fall from grace. It needs to though before we can objectively make things better. It was trimmed.

The formally 2nd best condition card is now first place, and lets find out which one it is and crown that one the king. This one was a false claimant to the throne.

[Leon]

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.

This point gets to the gist of my original thought. I think a case could easily be made that, if this is proven out, the card would technically have been cut from a sheet and still be the nicest looking one in the hobby. That is why only adding the word (Hand Cut) to the label would make it technically correct. There really is no denying it, as much as everyone wants to give their opinion, which is great, the card would be labeled correctly and that procedure might not diminish the awe of the card. If that can't, or won't be done, then only an AUT grade should be on the label. After reading all of these thoughts I still haven't changed my original premise yet. It looks like there are some others who feel this way too.

[teetwoohsix]

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.



Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

If we don't then we are saying that this collector, this card, this grade, in this instance, gets a pass, gets preferential treatment, and that is dangerous precedent.

It allows for more of it in the future, and like in autographs, we have been fighting this type of thing for years and years and it is the apathy of some who wish the status quo to continue or don't care one way or another that makes it harder and more drawn out to insist on reform so the hobby can show everyone that it has integrity.

if you are a guy getting a '70 reggie jackson 2nd year card graded, or a honus wagner t206, you are going to get the same service under the same standard and one card isn't worthy of fudging the numbers more than another.

but if billy crystal says, "this card is maaaaaavelous" so let's not insist it get graded according to the rules and standards, then it's our own fault and it will just take longer for reforms to come about.

autographs are a mess because of this and i would hope cards take the lead in insisting on integrity and labeling things an A, when they are an A, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe we get blinded by this one card so much we fall all over ourselves and we don't want the card to fall from grace. It needs to though before we can objectively make things better. It was trimmed.

The formally 2nd best condition card is now first place, and lets find out which one it is and crown that one the king. This one was a false claimant to the throne.

Good post.

As far as reform goes, it has to start from within the person who is doing the deeds....if that doesn't happen, they won't stop.

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

[teetwoohsix]

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

+1

[Leon]

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though :). thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's trimmed, the grade is irrelevant -- it's Authentic because it's altered. If it's a strip card etc. that was MEANT to be hand cut, then it isn't really altered so the grade becomes at least marginally relevant.

[teetwoohsix]

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though :). thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

I understand your logic Leon, on all points. I think it will always be the "notorious card" though, and will always be worth a boatload of $$, as long as it didn't just have an "A" on the label- it would still have to have the "label" it has, just not the "grade".

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

[frankbmd]

My understanding of valuing cards with PSA qualifiers is roughly a 2 pt reduction in the numerical grade (ie PSA 6 OC ~ PSA 4 in value).

Therefore should not the Wagner be reslabbed as a

PSA 10 HC :eek: :eek: :eek:

I don't expect any support for this idea, as I don't support it either. I just don't like the whole qualifier issue with PSA.

[Leon]

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

[barrysloate]

Absolutely agree that no other Wagner looks like an 8. And this card does look like one. But trimmed cards are not supposed to get 8's. Maybe we've taken this one as far as we can go. Let's politely and respectfully accept we disagree. I happen to love the card and think it's a knockout. I'm just not crazy about that silly little label on it.

[mark evans]

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

[teetwoohsix]

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

How about....."The Card" :D ?

[3-2-count]

There will no doubt be opinions on both sides of the fence when it comes to the topic at hand, but the fact remains that Psa does and always has awarded numerical grades to hand cut cards. Where does one draw the line?? I see both arguments and don't lean either way. Cards below are not mine, simply shown for reference.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/andreatny/psahandcut1.jpg http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/andreatny/psahandcut2.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/andreatny/psahandcut3.jpg http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/andreatny/psahandcut4.jpg

[CobbSpikedMe]

After reading all the opinions I am still at the same point I was when I began. In order to answer the question of what grade the card should have we have to simply think like a grader. That means we can't take the card's mystique into question or the fact that it is the "Holy Grail" of the hobby. We have to just look at the card like any other card we look at.

If it is a trimmed card, then we have to give it an Auth grade. Simple. As collectors we can debate it all we want and that's the great thing about this board. We can debate it. But when the card gets into the hands of a professional objective grader, it's just another card and should accurately be graded as it is. Authentic. End of story.

I do think it should have pedigree on the flip however to acknowledge it's importance to the hobby.

Thanks,

AndyH

[novakjr]

Tony, the difference there, is that those cards were "only" available as part of strips or sheets...The 1984 Nestle Mattingly is nice. I have one myself. But perfect centering is almost a given with those, because they were only released in sheet form, and for the most part, were professionally cut after the fact.

[3-2-count]

Hi David. Yes I did know that, but was referencing them only to show hand cut cards do receive numerical grades from Psa whether they be strip cards or from a sheet just as Leon stated from the beginning. Again not quite sure which way I lean right now, but the Wagner card was from a sheet, right? Like I stated where does one draw the line. Both camps have good points and this is no doubt a unique situation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

[novakjr]

Hi David. Yes I did know that, but was referencing them only to show hand cut cards do receive numerical grades from Psa whether they be strip cards or from a sheet just as Leon stated from the beginning. Again not quite sure which way I lean right now, but the Wagner card was from a sheet, right? Like I stated where does one draw the line. Both camps have good points and this is no doubt a unique situation.

PSA, has always drawn the line(maybe not by example, but by written rule), at whether or not the card was available with a factory cut...Although, if this were from a sheet, then I believe that might make THIS Wagner, a different kinda Monster all-together...

[Leon]

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

Nope, we base it on facts. Fact is it was cut from a sheet (or so it is being stated that way). It looks like an 8 to me and was cut from a sheet NOT just trimmed, ....yeap, PSA 8 Hand Cut.

I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency.

At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip.

[teetwoohsix]

When I look at the Wagner, as well as those strip cards Tony posted, it's hard for me to think those are actually hand cut. Machine cut? I couldn't hand cut a card that good on my best day :D :p

Sincerely, Clayton

[Boccabella]

Isn't it a moot point until Ken Kendrick decides he wants to sell it or strikes a deal with PSA to adjust the flip?

In the long run, it's probably better to do the latter so the controversy doesn't hog the headlines/message boards when it is for sale again.

"Authentic" or not, the value of the card isn't going to plummet. Collectors like "nice" and this is still the "nicest" of all.

Most people who have $ to spend on a very expensive old baseball card don't think like you, the "serious" collector.

Wealthy people like "newsworthy" and the Wagner card is definitely that. You can wish it away, but it ain't happenin'.

I'm pretty sure there will be a waiting list.

[drc]

Yes, 'hand cut' is just a figure of speech in some cases.

Rule #1 for hand cutting: First make sure they aren't pinking sheers.
Rule #2: If they were pinking sheers, sell the card as a T206 Deckle Edge regional test issue.
Rule #3: Practice on a 1991 Donruss first.

[botn]

While standards and rules have changed at PSA since the Wagner was first graded, I doubt even then, the intent or purpose of assigning a grade would have applied to cards which where hand cut from issues which were not intended to be hand cut. T206s are not strip cards or cards which were cut off of a box. At this point, were PSA to do anything short of placing the card in an Authentic holder they would once again being complicit in rewriting grading standards and rules for this card. The original assigned grade was done with deceit and it would only continue to compromise the concept of grading to apply a new set of standards because of this card. This card should not continue to receive special treatment. Already are enough people, and therefore cards, in the hobby who get special treatment. This should be the end of the road for this one. Time to wear the scarlet letter!

Mastro was not the only one involved in assigning a grade on this card. His admission implicates others, I would think. Further, we did not need an admission from him about the alteration to know it was altered. Each time PSA saw the card, when they had it on display at shows or the several times it was reholdered, they decided to look the other way and permit the lie to live on. I suppose they could argue the card was never sent to them for review but it should be their responsibility to maintain the integrity of their services especially in light of a glaring error.

[benjulmag]

Nope, we base it on facts. Fact is it was cut from a sheet (or so it is being stated that way). It looks like an 8 to me and was cut from a sheet NOT just trimmed, ....yeap, PSA 8 Hand Cut.

I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency.

At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip.

Leon,

The implications of this line of reasoning IMO is that it will set a new standard of how final-production-run uncut sheets from ALL issues are to be graded. Given the technology available to precisely cut sheets combined with uncut sheets known to exist, we could in theory create, for example, "PSA 10 Hand-Laser-Machine-Etc. Cut" examples of N172 Kelly, Ward, Brouthers and Comisky, E93 Cobb, Wagner, and Mathewson, M101-5 Ruth and Thorpe, '33 Goudey Ruth, '34 Goudey Gehrig, Sport Kings Ruth and Cobb. The likelihood of that happening will depend how the market would value such creations. Currently uncut sheets are valued at a fraction of their break value based the individual cards receiving numerical grades. If however a new grading standard emerged and materially changed the value of such sheet-cut cards, either the prices of the sheets would increase markedly or there would be significant economic incentive to cut them up.

[boneheadandrube]

This card has been the elephant in the room that nobody wanted to seriously talk about for 20 years...everyone knew exactly what this card was the whole time. (Trimmed when viewed in person). The question for any collector should be "why has it taken this long to ...." Add your own terms to the end of that statement, and think about why an ostrich sticks its head into a hole in the ground...The hobby will mature if this card is reholdered (not gonna happen)...

GB

[Leon]

Leon,

The implications of this line of reasoning IMO is that it will set a new standard of how final-production-run uncut sheets from ALL issues are to be graded. Given the technology available to precisely cut sheets combined with uncut sheets known to exist, we could in theory create, for example, "PSA 10 Hand-Laser-Machine-Etc. Cut" examples of N172 Kelly, Ward, Brouthers and Comisky, E93 Cobb, Wagner, and Mathewson, M101-5 Ruth and Thorpe, '33 Goudey Ruth, '34 Goudey Gehrig, Sport Kings Ruth and Cobb. The likelihood of that happening will depend how the market would value such creations. Currently uncut sheets are valued at a fraction of their break value based the individual cards receiving numerical grades. If however a new grading standard emerged and materially changed the value of such sheet-cut cards, either the prices of the sheets would increase markedly or there would be significant economic incentive to cut them up.

Corey, it's not a new standard. It's already being done with the cards posted in this thread. Uncut strips are valued at less than some of the very high grade, hand cut, strip cards today. It drives me crazy but it's already here. If there are other T206s found on a sheet, and then cut, I don't have a problem with them grading numerically with the qualifier of HAND CUT. I always thought it was the best way to do it (for the strip cards). I doubt I will convince the other 75% of this situation but it's a fun debate. I do stand by my original thoughts and was curious if I would change them as I saw all of the other responses. I am open to changing my mind the other way but haven't yet.

[HRBAKER]

Shouldn't a distinction be made for cards that were marketed in strips, intended to be cut into cards, like strip cards? I can see these numerically graded as #/Hand Cut because they were used as intended. I don't think I have ever seen evidence that T206s were ever marketed as strips with the intention that the user cut them into separate cards.

This is a card with two faces. One, the best surviving example condition-wise of the most famous card in the hobby. IOW, it is and always will be the most famous copy of the most famous card in the hobby. The second face as Corey referenced above is that it will also always seemingly be linked with the fraudulent underbelly of the hobby.

To me to make this card continue to be an "8" going forward regardless of qualifier says that we are determined to find a way to "number" this card based on the card it is, not any standardized system of grading.

[benjulmag]

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

[boneheadandrube]

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

Restore a Van Gogh damaged by WWII activities, or "re-cut" a Wagner...money vs. brains. Fun thoughts though!:D
GB

[travrosty]

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

exactly right,


if i had a superb oversized wagner, with great appeal, just slightly rounded corners, i just trim it sharp, send it to psa, and ask for a hand cut qualifer.

my card goes from a 5 to an 8 hand cut?

i agree with corey, is this where we want to go? i say no.

the trimmers would have a field day thinking of ways to increase their card several grades and get a hand cut qualifier. and its not just wagner, other oversized cards too.

[Rich Klein]

Have a book specifically written about them. C'mon now -- this cards will sell for more $$$ if and when the next time it sells due to the fame. And no, this card's flip will not change. All you will need to go with it is a signed copy of "The Card".

Rich

[travrosty]

even if the hand cut qualifier got a little traction and psa decided it wanted to do it, it would never fly, because it would look like an obvious attempt by psa to minimize the fallout over misgrading it the first time. people would be outraged that all psa would have to do is add "hand cut" to the flip it is already in and that everything would now be okay?

PSA used that cards for 20 years in advertising, etc. to promote its business, and it was an "A" all along, not an 8. Great advertising for them. The first card they graded, and a big draw, at the national, etc.


Now they get to decide it should remain an 8 (HC) to save face? I don't think they should ever grade a T206 Wagner again. The card was trimmed. PSA graded a trimmed card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Travis, I have news for you. PSA has graded a LOT of trimmed cards. So has SGC. Maybe not in terms of percentages, but given the volume both companies have graded, many trimmed cards have, for whatever reason, slipped through. And it will continue to happen, it's inevitable. It's an imperfect world.

[calvindog]

Yeah but this Wagner was the centerpiece of PSA's advertising for decades. It is the most significant card they've ever graded. And not only was it misgraded but it was graded fraudulently. And of course, as predicted, Joe Orlando sticks his head in the sand and pretends this debacle doesn't exist. What a clown he is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff, the story just broke a couple of days ago, we don't know yet whether Joe is going to play ostrich or take a position. I imagine he needs to discuss this with his management and maybe the CU Board before doing anything. I suspect this will take some time. It's a public company still, no? EDIT TO ADD And yeah he probably needs to consult with their lawyers too.

[JEFFV96MASTERS]

Post / opinion no longer available

[E93]

Its been that way since Day 1 at PSA,,,, not sure what the debate is about,,,, its now been VERIFIED publicly that a fact long suspected== that the card is a sheet trimmed item= is inside a PSA slab,,,,


Actually I don't think it has been verified publicly yet. This discussion is proceeding as if that is the case, but did that actually get stated in the documents? I admit, I have not read it all, but what I did read about it in the actual legal documents seemed a bit ambiguous. Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

Actually I don't think it has been verified publicly yet. This discussion is proceeding as if that is the case, but did that actually get stated in the documents? I admit, I have not read it all, but what I did read about it in the actual legal documents seemed a bit ambiguous. Someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.
JimB

The inference from the report that Mastro is cooperating is that he admitted to it.

[E93]

Peter,
Yes, if I was a betting man, I would infer the same thing. But I would like to see what is actually said before drawing conclusions.
JimB

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter,
Yes, if I was a betting man, I would infer the same thing. But I would like to see what is actually said before drawing conclusions.
JimB

I agree, but that may not happen, as it seems unlikely Bill's case will go to trial or that he is otherwise going to confess in public.

[esd10]

i believe it should receive a auth grade because it has been altered. What i would have liked to see is the printer sheet the wagner came from man that would have been one of the greatest find in sports card history and might have been held in higher regard than the card bye itself i say this because of the condition of the wagner by itself is amazing. does anyone else know who was on this sheet with the wagner?

[travrosty]

do we see the duality here?

on one hand, a lot of people are saying that everyone knew it was trimmed all these years, so what is the big deal about.

on the other hand, when people here call it trimmed, then others want to hold off calling it trimmed for sure until the principal of the criminal case confirms it at trial, and on audio tape?

see how important it is to find out once and for all, so this jeckyll and hyde situation can be resolved.

its obviously trimmed to some for certain debate purposes, and it cant be called trimmed to others for other debate purposes.

[drc]

If the card has been trimmed, cut down or/and otherwise altered, it's grade is either Authentic or Poor-- though Authentic would be the usual choice.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Yeah but this Wagner was the centerpiece of PSA's advertising for decades. It is the most significant card they've ever graded. And not only was it misgraded but it was graded fraudulently. And of course, as predicted, Joe Orlando sticks his head in the sand and pretends this debacle doesn't exist. What a clown he is.

PSA could be in store for more than it imagined. According to the Mastro Federal Indictment (paragraph 11):

It was further part of the scheme that in marketing materials distributed on behalf of Mastro Auctions, which were intended to portray Mastro Auctions to potential bidders and consignors as a premier seller of valuable items for which a strong market existed, defendant MASTRO represented that Mastro Auctions had sold the most expensive baseball card in the world, a Honus Wagner T-206 card. In making this representation, however, defendant MASTRO knowingly omitted the material fact that defendant MASTRO had altered the baseball card by cutting the sides of the card in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card.

Based on this statement, it wasn't the actual sale of the card that was an issue, but continually advertising that they had sold the most expensive card in the hobby without disclosing that they knew the card was altered, which would greatly devalue the card.

Likewise, PSA has milked the same card for all its worth. According to Michael O'Keeffe's articles and his book, The Card, there was allegedly a voice of descent by one of the graders, Bill Hughes, regarding if the card had been trimmed. Here's an excerpt from a recent NY Daily News article:

"The Card" quotes Bill Hughes, a member of the grading service team that issued the card's high grade - Professional Sports Authenticator gave it a PSA 8 on a scale of 1-10 - as admitting he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded it. "The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it," Hughes explained.

See:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-04-17/sports/27062015_1_dealers-and-card-vintage-cards-numerical-grade

To also put this in perspective, the T206 Wagner PSA 8 was the first card PSA graded. Having this highly sought after card with a PSA label was in my opinion the greatest publicity a start-up company in this industry could hope for. So by analogy, if Hughes' admissions are true, PSA may have in essence done the same that Mastro did - attempt to mislead consumers with false information.

Another potential problem facing PSA is if there was indeed a deliberate decision to grade a trimmed card, the current owner of the card may decide to explore the option of filing a suit against the grading company under the Lanham Act for false advertising/mislabeling of a product and would be liable for triple damages. That's $2.8M x 3 = $8.4M!!!

As for Joe Orlando, unless he's gone through a radical personal transformation, I wouldn't expect to see any voluntary public statement about the Wagner or Mastro.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan -- Lanham Act claims are usually against a competitor. It is possible a buyer has a cause of action against a seller, I am not sure, but in any event PSA didn't sell the card. I am not sure there is a Lanham Act claim here.

[atx840]

Couldn't one reproduce a factory cut by using equipment from that time to pass the grade? Wonder if this will spread to other suspected cards like the SGC P150 Plank.....very interesting development indeed.

[ullmandds]

i'm sure some others on here know a whole lot more about the process than me...but when large stacks of sheets are cut with that style of guillotine like cutter the effect on the cards(kind of a bowing effect) cut will appear very different than if u only cut one single sheet. Additionally wouldn't the color of the cut edges be a give away too?

[tothrk]

I believe the only proper outcome is to reholder the thing in an AUTH-TRIMMED holder. I think if they were to basically make an exception and call it PSA 8 (Hand Cut), it would no doubt lead to other exceptions. When the borders are eventually added to the Wagner in the other thread, we can call it PSA 8 (Hand Made).

[ullmandds]

I think Authentic...cut from sheet would be appropriate.

[tothrk]

I think Authentic...cut from sheet would be appropriate.

As long as the holder says AUTH without any numbers, I could go along. In the end, I guess my opinion doesn't matter because I will never be the owner of this card. Therefore, I will never be the seller either. Personally, if I had the financial means, I would rather buy one of the Ex specimens floating around which are 100% authentic and unaltered. I do have what may be a silly question though. Can PSA essentially recall this product and reholder themselves? When they sell you beef with e-coli in it, they recall it so I thought maybe PSA could step up to the plate and do the right thing. I suppose that would be an admission of some sort so I'm not holding my breath.

[ullmandds]

I agree...I've never been a condition guy...a nice vg would tickle me pink!!!!!!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

My interpretation of the Lanham Act as to its relevance is:

(a) Civil action
(1)Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which—

(B)in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person’s goods, services, or commercial activities,

shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1125

I could be wrong, but I don't see being involved in the actual direct sale or having ownership of the item in question matters based on what I've highlighted in bold print.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan, on its face this applies most naturally to suits by competitors -- who have been harmed because the defendant either misrepresents his own goods, or the competitor's goods. It seems a stretch to me to say PSA, in the context of a sale of the Wagner, by virtue of having once graded it, would be misrepresenting the seller's goods. Just my .02, which is probably worth .01.

[birdman42]

Corey, right on, the hobby has to insist every card and collector and hobbyist and grading standard is the same for everybody, every card, every time.

So PSA is going to review every card Mastro ever submitted? Not gonna happen. (Gratuitous reductio ad absurdum.)

Bill

[travrosty]

So PSA is going to review every card Mastro ever submitted? Not gonna happen. (Gratuitous reductio ad absurdum.)

Bill



i was referring to carving out a special qualifier just to suit this card. since we know about this one being trimmed now, it should join the ranks of the Authentic/trimmed. this card may be special in the hobby, but it shouldnt be special in the card grading world. treat it the same.

[drc]

PSA8 Trimmed would make no sense. It would be like labeling a card Mint Poor. Or Up Down (Do I hear a Cat Dog anyone?). Nrrmt-Mt and altered are mutually exclusive terms-- the presence of one means the absence of the other.

And, yes, strip cards and Kellogg's cards that were intended to be hand cut are a different situation. That topic is a for another thread some day.

The practical issue is if the card is indeed 'hand cut' (using the term colloquially) and it is known by the seller that it is altered, then the seller has to detail its condition correctly at next sale. A significant event is how it is described next time it comes up for auction.

[g_vezina_c55]

I would rather buy one of the Ex specimens floating around which are 100% authentic and unaltered.

X2

[Leon]

X2

They are talking about buying....not selling.

[RGold]

Love is fleeting :D:D:D:D:D

[Leon]

Love is fleeting :D:D:D:D:D

so are some collections

[t206hound]

Leon, you made me laugh out loud twice in one day... that's tough to do!

[ullmandds]

youth is fleeting too!

[insidethewrapper]

If the current PSA "8" is deemed "Auth" then I believe the highest rated Wagner will be PSA "5"

[olrac44]

Why not slab it similar to this?

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/890.html

[Runscott]

Why not slab it similar to this?

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2009/890.html

Under the new idea, this card could be re-slabbed as a 7 or 8 (hand cut).

To get the 'hand cut' qualifier, would I have to prove I cut it from a strip?

If so, then if Bill Mastro's word is good enough (that he cut it from a strip), would mine be?

[atx840]

Too funny Leon :p

HC designation could also work for printers scrap.

[4815162342]

so are some collections

LOL! And fast! Like the Chicago guy without the drama!

[Mrc32]

If the Wagner was cut from a sheet of cards.....what happened to all the other cards on that sheet? Did he cut them out too and are they a floating around in PSA 8 holders?

[olrac44]

The Plank in my post above I believe was on the same sheet.

[scooter729]

At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date.

[calvindog]

Good for PSA! Ride that ship all the way down to the bottom of the sea!

[travrosty]

circling the wagons, great! full blown investigation, here we come!!!

don't stop at just card grading!!!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date.

LOL! Not surpising.......

Was this recorded on video or even audio?

[scooter729]

Not sure if anything was recorded, but Hall was adamant that he examined te Wagner with a magnifying glass and stood by it, but if anything was proven otherwise and PSA had to compensate a buyer for any reason, that was part of their guarantee.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Thanks for the updates scooter729.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So the grader, Bill Hughes, was lying (or was misquoted)? Interesting. Hall is probably taking a chance that whatever Bill Mastro has to say about it won't see the light of day.

[botn]

I have always said it and caught sh!t about it for years--once the card is graded it is 100% legit. That is why grading companies can offer a guarantee of a buy back. They never HAVE to use it.

Too bad it is not an option to break out the card and have it examined by a panel of "disinterested" graders. But then you void the all important guarantee.

Shill bidding is a blessing compared to the things that go on behind the plastic. FBI has put their resources in the wrong place.

[Runscott]

At the PSA lunch right now - David Hall is 100 percent standing by the PSA 8 grade, and says the only debate was whether to grade it a 7 or 8. He says they will stand by their product but they don't believe the evidence to date.

He should stand behind their product - PSA appears to use very high-quality plastic, and their labels are second to none.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To quote Wallace Stevens, "What we said of it became a part of what it is."

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I have always said it and caught sh!t about it for years--once the card is graded it is 100% legit. That is why grading companies can offer a guarantee of a buy back. They never HAVE to use it.

Too bad it is not an option to break out the card and have it examined by a panel of "disinterested" graders. But then you void the all important guarantee.

Shill bidding is a blessing compared to the things that go on behind the plastic. FBI has put their resources in the wrong place.

Amen to that.

[scooter729]

So the grader, Bill Hughes, was lying (or was misquoted)? Interesting. Hall is probably taking a chance that whatever Bill Mastro has to say about it won't see the light of day.

Hall said Hughes told him that the quotes in the book and the newspaper articles were outright lies, and Hughes never said he knew the card was trimmed.

The plot thickens...

[Peter_Spaeth]

What a tangled web we weave....

[botn]

Amen to that.

Funny thing Dan, is that for years you attacked me endlessly for my position as it was an anti PSA stance.

[barrysloate]

I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.


As long as we're quoting poetry today.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Funny thing Dan, is that for years you attacked me endlessly for my position as it was an anti PSA stance.

As I recall Greg, my issue was wanting to see some evidence made public - which I finally did. :)

[Peter_Spaeth]

In the room collectors come and go,
talking of Hall and Orlando.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Also I see Keith Olbermann takes his shots on this fiasco

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/tag/mastro-auctions/

[barrysloate]

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo...:)

[baseballart]

Barry

I do not wish to see you wearing white flannel trousers.

[barrysloate]

But do I dare to eat a peach?

[Peter_Spaeth]

No worries, he won't drown.

[barrysloate]

I feel like a patient etherized upon a table...

[Runscott]

Also I see Keith Olbermann takes his shots on this fiasco

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/tag/mastro-auctions/

"Before and after somebody with the guts of a burglar and the skills of a circumcision specialist had trimmed the thing.

In its previous state the Wagner was an anomaly. It had very large white borders, and the card was thus perhaps 10% bigger than the average T-206. It looked like it had been hand-cut from a sheet of cards, and not done by a machine. Some of the corners were stubbed and worn from age. "

Interesting. So Olberman had all this information for all these years, but only now had the "guts of a burglar" to finally make his thoughts public?

Keith, you were scooped.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was not aware that the alleged "before" photo showed a card with stubbed corners, I thought the differences were more subtle.

[mcgwirecom]

Just saw this video on youtube. Thought it was funny and pertained to this thread. Proof the card was tampered with...LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piPoDVb4_OA

sorry if it was posted before.

[brob28]

Aren't all trimmed cards hand cut? None of the card doctors send their cards to a factory- they hand cut them themselves.

This card was cut to deceive. I don't see how hand cut would apply. It's trimmed. Period. It's not a PSA 8 in any way whatsoever.

+1

[Leon]

So the grader, Bill Hughes, was lying (or was misquoted)? Interesting. Hall is probably taking a chance that whatever Bill Mastro has to say about it won't see the light of day.

My guess is that the light of day, formally, is about 6 months away. But what do I know?

[g_vezina_c55]

any news in the psa8 wagner case?

[cobblove]

"Its like the Mona Lisa of baseball cards. Thats why its worth so much."
Or because it looks like its Nm-Mt and not Ex.