Mastro and Allen Indicted

[calvindog]

Carry on.

[Leon]

story

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2012/07/sports-memorabilia-king-bill-mastro-indicted-on-fraud-charges




.
.

[sportscardpete]

Did i maybe misread it - is the maximum sentence printed? How long could he possibly go away to jail for?

[bijoem]

yuck.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Quoting from the article:

"According to the indictment, in advertising portraying Mastro Auctions as the premier seller of valuable items, including the world’s most expensive baseball trading card, a Honus Wagner T-206 card, Mastro allegedly failed to disclose that he had altered the Wagner T-206 card by cutting the sides in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card".

HOLY "NEVER GET CHEATED" BATMAN! This could potentially be one colossal buy-buck by the company that graded that card.

[e107collector]

Oh boy. Doesn't sound good.

I think each count of fraud carries a maximum sentence of 20 years and a hefty fine. Don't quote me on the numbers, but they are serious charges.

Tony

[peterose4hof]

I wonder how it is that they determined Allen (14 counts) was much more culpable than Mastro (1 count).

[t206fix]

Phew! I am so glad that I didn't buy that t206 Wagner!

[e107collector]

The article states that Mastro didn't disclose that the T206 Wagner was altered by cutting it from the sheet, however, PSA graded the card as an 8.

I wonder if PSA will be investigated to see how that happened?

Tony

[slidekellyslide]

I wonder what this means for their current operations? Legendary is currently sitting on one of the best prewar collections of all time.

[Runscott]

The article states that Mastro didn't disclose that the T206 Wagner was altered by cutting it from the sheet, however, PSA graded the card as an 8.

I wonder if PSA will be investigated to see how that happened?

Tony

Interesting. Did Mastro claim that it was unaltered? Didn't the guy at PSA who graded it, state that in the condition he received it, it was deemed by him to deserve that grade? Since it was the first card PSA graded, perhaps they simply changed their grading standards immediately after that one was slabbed.

Also, everyone has known for a long time that the slabbed Wagner was trimmed - way back to Gretzky - and that has not "significantly reduced the value of the card." In fact, the trimming story and resulting book may actually have caused the value of the card to increase.

[g_vezina_c55]

the charge are for principally shill bidding if i understand good, and not for the psa 8 wagner....

i understand correctly?

[drc]

Guess they'll have to dissolve and start a third auction house next week. I predict it will be called Super Auctions.

[Anthony S.]

Guess they'll have to dissolve and start a third auction house next week. I predict it will be called Super Auctions.

I just checked, www.pleasedontindictusagainauctions.com is still available

[RUSH2112]

American justice is almost comical when seen from a distance.

MF Global's Jon Corzine can't account for $1.6 billion of investors money and still enjoying the good life and yet the Feds are going after some guy that misrepresented an old baseball card and supposedly did some shill bidding on items consigned to his auction house. There are hundreds of Wall street crooks that should be served with papers ahead of these guys.

He's already paid the price for his mistakes as far as I am concerned.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What price did he pay?

[Leon]

American justice is almost comical when seen from a distance.

MF Global's Jon Corzine can't account for $1.6 billion of investors money and still enjoying the good life and yet the Feds are going after some guy that misrepresented an old baseball card and supposedly did some shill bidding on items consigned to his auction house. There are hundreds of Wall street crooks that should be served with papers ahead of these guys.

He's already paid the price for his mistakes as far as I am concerned.

You can say almost anything you want but you are going to need to have your name in your posts...nothing personal it's just the rules. You can put a period between some letters to not show up in searches, if you want to...thanks for yours and everyone's understanding in this thread....

[calvindog]

Lol

[calvindog]

American justice is almost comical when seen from a distance.

MF Global's Jon Corzine can't account for $1.6 billion of investors money and still enjoying the good life and yet the Feds are going after some guy that misrepresented an old baseball card and supposedly did some shill bidding on items consigned to his auction house. There are hundreds of Wall street crooks that should be served with papers ahead of these guys.

He's already paid the price for his mistakes as far as I am concerned.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. And I just lost 5 IQ points reading this post.

[calvindog]

What price did he pay?

The guilt he felt about stealing all his friends' money?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

For those of you not familiar with these individuals, here are two informative articles:

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=4511

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=4763

[oldjudge]

To the many lawyers on the board, what do you estimate the time horizon is for all this to come to trial? I have heard today that the Legendary Live Auction at the National is still on, as well as the August auction to follow shortly thereafter.

[RUSH2112]

You can say almost anything you want but you are going to need to have your name in your posts...nothing personal it's just the rules. You can put a period between some letters to not show up in searches, if you want to...thanks for yours and everyone's understanding in this thread....

If my statements have harmed Jon Corizines reputation then please, by all means, remove my post. Should his lawyer call, feel free to give him or her my full name and phone number, which you already have in your database.

[Matt]

This quote is fascinating in light of the discussions with Heritage and Hunts and how they use a house account to bid and don't distinguish it from any other bid:

They further intended to deceive participants into believing that greater market demand existed for some items than actually was the case, the charges allege.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

CHICAGO—Online and live auctions of sports memorabilia and other collectibles conducted during the 2000s by the former Mastro Auctions, which was based in suburban Chicago, routinely defrauded customers, according to a federal indictment unsealed today. William Mastro, who owned the former business that once billed itself as the “world’s leading sports and Americana auction house,” together with Doug Allen and Mark Theotikos, both former executives of Mastro Auctions, were indicted on fraud charges for allegedly rigging auctions through a series of deceptive practices, including so-called “shill-bidding,” designed to inflate prices paid by bidders and to protect the interests of consignors and sellers at the expense of unwitting bidders.

According to the indictment, in advertising portraying Mastro Auctions as the premier seller of valuable items, including the world’s most expensive baseball trading card, a Honus Wagner T-206 card, Mastro allegedly failed to disclose that he had altered the Wagner T-206 card by cutting the sides in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card. The charges allege that Mastro and Allen caused the sale of certain items knowing that their authenticity and condition were misrepresented to customers, including purported hair of Elvis Presley and a purported 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings trophy baseball.

“Consumers might be lured to the auction market for sports memorabilia and other collectibles by an emotional attachment to an item or purely as a calculated investment, but, as the allegations in this case demonstrate, bidders must remain mindful of the maxim ‘Buyer Beware,’” said Gary S. Shapiro, Acting United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois. “Consumers have a right to be protected from deceptive and dishonest sales practices, and we will prosecute those who fraudulently rig auctions at the expense of bidders as the indictment alleges in this case.”

Mr. Shapiro announced the charges with Robert D. Grant, Special Agent in Charge of the Chicago Office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Thomas P. Brady, Inspector in Charge of the U.S. Postal Inspection Service in Chicago.

Mastro, 59, of Palos Park, who owned Mastro Auctions until 2004 and was its chairman and chief executive officer from 1996 until February 2009, was charged with one count of mail fraud.

Allen, 49, of Crete, who was president and chief operating officer of Mastro Auctions between 2001 and February 2009, was charged with 14 counts of wire and mail fraud. Theotikos, 51, of Addison, who was employed by Mastro Auctions between 1996 and February 2009 as vice president of auction operations and, later, vice president of acquisitions, was charged with six counts of wire and mail fraud. Both Allen and Theotikos are currently executives of Legendary Auctions, based in south suburban Lansing.

Mastro, Allen, and Theotikos will be arraigned on dates to be determined in U.S. District Court in Chicago.

The 16-count indictment, which was returned by a federal grand jury yesterday, was unsealed today following the arrest of a fourth defendant, William Boehm, 63, of Ballwin, Missouri, who was Mastro Auction’s director of information technology. Boehm, who was charged with one count of making false statements to FBI agents investigating Mastro Auction’s practices, had an initial appearance today in Federal Court in St. Louis.

According to the indictment, Mastro Auctions, which also operated under the names Mastro Fine Sports and Mastro Net, specialized in sports memorabilia but also featured such items as coins, art, and Americana collectibles. Most items were consigned to Mastro Auctions for sale by their owners, but Mastro Auctions also sold items that it owned. Between 2001 and 2009, Mastro Auctions’ offices were located at different times in Oak Brook, Willowbrook, and Burr Ridge, Illinois.

In conducting online and live auctions, Mastro Auctions typically charged a “seller’s fee” or a “commission,” usually a percentage of the price that an item sold for on consignment, and required potential bidders to pay a one-time fee of $75 that enabled them to participate in auctions. Successful bidders were assessed a “buyer’s premium,” usually a fee of 15 to 22 percent on top of their winning bid, which was known as the “hammer price.” Bidders could place bids online through Mastro Auctions’ website or by directly communicating with a Mastro Auctions’ employee by telephone or fax machine. Bidders could place either “straight bids” that incrementally increased the value over the last bid or “ceiling bids” that raised bids by established increments until the maximum a bidder was willing to pay was reached.

Between at least 2001 and February 2009, Mastro, Allen, Theotikos, and others allegedly caused and made false representations and omissions in Mastro Auctions’ catalogs, advertising, promotions, and other media and in the bids placed in certain auctions. Those three defendants allegedly intended to deceive bidders into believing that Mastro Auctions conducted auctions according to practices that ensured fair and competitive auctions for all participants. They further intended to deceive participants into believing that greater market demand existed for some items than actually was the case, the charges allege.

As part of the alleged fraud scheme, the indictment charges that Mastro, Allen, and Theotikos made false statements regarding the conduct of Mastro Auctions, including the following:

each Mastro Auctions catalog represented that “items are sold to the highest bidder.” In fact, Mastro, Allen, and Theotikos allegedly knew that certain items were not sold to the highest bidder because they canceled sales and engaged in and facilitated shill-bidding to fraudulently inflate prices to the detriment of bidders;
consignment agreements prohibited consignors or their agents from bidding on an item and, if the consignor violated this provision and had the highest bid on an item or lot, the consignor would be required to pay the commission and buyer’s premium. In fact, the three defendants knew they permitted certain consignors to bid on their own items, and, at times, those consignors did not pay commissions or premiums when they placed the highest bid; and
the three defendants represented at various times that Mastro Auctions did not implement undisclosed “reserves,” meaning prices, not disclosed to bidders, at which Mastro Auctions would not sell an item if the bidding failed to reach the “reserve” price. In fact, in certain auctions, they canceled sales instead of allowing the highest bidder to purchase an item, in order to prevent the sale of the item at a price lower than the consignor desired.

In October 2007, Allen allegedly created a “Code of Conduct” for Mastro Auctions. Despite the code’s assurances to the contrary, Mastro, Allen, and Theotikos knew that Mastro Auctions frequently did not disclose true ownership of items or that several employees with bidding privileges, including Mastro and Allen, had access to information about the ceiling bids, including the bid amounts. Further, contrary to the code’s assurances, employees, including Mastro, Allen, and Theotikos, bid on items consigned by related parties.

Among allegedly fraudulent auction practices, the indictment charges that the three defendants and others placed fictitious shill bids for the sole purpose of artificially inflating the price of items being auctioned. They allegedly placed shill bids at various times using a corporate bidding account, their own personal accounts, and accounts of employees and friends. The defendants then ensured that when a shill bid was the highest bid, the shill bidder would not be required to purchase the item; instead, they canceled the sale and offered the item to the next-highest bidder, the charges allege.

The Code of Conduct also provided certain assurances that Mastro Auctions would disclose information about auction items that were altered or restored. After the code was published, Mastro and Allen allegedly failed to disclose alterations and caused restoration work to be done on baseball trading cards, despite assurances that no such work would be performed.

Mastro and Allen also allegedly knew that they had misrepresented the authenticity of the purported hair of Elvis Presley. In April 2003, Mastro Auctions sold hair purportedly of Presley. The initial purchasers later returned the hair along with the results of DNA testing, which called its authenticity into question. In June 2004, Allen provided a refund to the purchasers. In December 2005, August 2006, April 2007, and August 2008, Allen again sold portions of the purported Presley hair to Mastro Auction bidders. In each instance, he allegedly made false representations in catalogs, such as asserting that the hair was “bona fide” or that it would be sold with “documents attesting to the veracity,” without disclosing the results of the DNA testing.

In August 2002, Mastro Auctions sold to Purchaser A what it claimed was an 1869 Cincinnati Red Stockings trophy baseball, which was described as an actual game ball played with by the first professional team, decorated following the game, and presented to the winning team. In October 2006, Purchaser A submitted the ball for laboratory testing, which indicated that the paint on the trophy ball contained a material not used in commercial paint until after World War II, thus clouding the authenticity of the ball. A month later, Allen provided a refund to Purchaser A and the ball was returned to Mastro Auctions, the indictment states. In December 2006, Mastro allegedly contacted Victim A about purchasing the trophy ball and failed to disclose information about the paint test results. On December 27, 2006, Victim A purchased the trophy ball from Mastro Auctions for approximately $62,000, according to the indictment.

The false statements count against Boehm alleges that he lied to FBI agents in July 2007 when he stated that he had disabled the Mastro Auctions bidding account of Individual D because Individual D was having financial difficulties, and he had created a bidding account in the name of “Craig Helling” to catch a Mastro Auctions employee suspected of stealing company information. In fact, Boehm allegedly knew that the accounts in the names of Individual D and Craig Helling were used to place fictitious bids.

Assistant U.S. Attorneys Nancy DePodesta and Steven Grimes represent the government.

Each count of mail and wire fraud against Mastro, Allen, and Theotikos carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine and restitution is mandatory. The court may also impose a fine totaling twice the loss to any victim or twice the gain to the defendant, whichever is greater. The false statements count against Boehm carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. If convicted, the court must impose a reasonable sentence under federal statutes and the advisory United States Sentencing Guidelines.

The public is reminded that an indictment contains only charges and is not evidence of guilt. The defendants are presumed innocent and are entitled to a fair trial at which the government has the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.


http://www.fbi.gov/chicago/press-releases/2012/william-mastro-and-two-other-executives-of-former-mastro-auctions-indicted-for-allegedly-defrauding-bidders-in-online-and-live-auctions-of-sports-memorabilia-and-other-collectibles

[SetBuilder]

Can a lawyer with access to PACER please post the criminal complaint in .PDF? I would like to read the allegations in detail.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

It's not on PACER as of 30 seconds ago.

[wonkaticket]

Jeff, you drive a PACER hook Manny up.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/amc-pacer.jpg

[kcohen]

Does this mean that Mr. Allen will not be a featured speaker at this year's Net54 dinner?

[autograf]

Ugly....could change the landscape of who's auction what down the road. Lots of details in that press release. Wonder what basis they have for alledging that Mastro trimmed the Wagner? Not that I doubt anything was fishy with the Wagner, just seems like mostly heresay unless there's some smoking gun testimony to that effect.....

[autograf]

It's not on Pacer but can be found on AMC Gremlin.....okay....that was gratuitous, I know....

[glchen]

I wonder if this indictment is a coincidence with National so close at hand. It seems like every year the Feds try to do something around this time.

[peterose4hof]

I wonder if this indictment is a coincidence with National so close at hand. It seems like every year the Feds try to do something around this time.

Very good point!

[Leon]

Does this mean that Mr. Allen will not be a featured speaker at this year's Net54 dinner?

I assume he will be attending his own live auction that night.

[Runscott]

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. And I just lost 5 IQ points reading this post.

We can't consider your measly 5 IQ points, until after we've dealt with the guys like me who lost 10-20.

[Brian Van Horn]

Now, for the obvious question:

Will this lead to an additional investigation of Legendary Auctions?

[travrosty]

no one said 'boom goes the dynamite' yet, so i just thought i would just get that out of the way.

[travrosty]

I think the phrase about the Wagner being trimmed and Mastro allegedly knowing this would only be part of the investigation and indictment release if the Feds have a plan to prove it was trimmed, otherwise why mention it? If they can prove it was trimmed, I think psa is in a conundrum. Would they then have to admit it is an "Authentic" or would they still stand by an 8? Would the Wagner get subpoenaed? That would be something.

[Bicem]

Now, for the obvious question:

Will this lead to an additional investigation of Legendary Auctions?

whoa, come on now, completely different company.

[calvindog]

But since Doug Allen was involved, fraud was still afoot.

[ElCabron]

This is devastating to me. My world has just been turned upside down. Along with Dave Kohler and Jerry Sandusky, there is no one I trust more than Doug Allen.

Can we assume additional indictments for shill bidding will follow shortly?

-Ryan

[peterose4hof]

Can we assume additional indictments for shill bidding will follow shortly?

-Ryan

"Shortly" I don't think so. These cases take years and years to build.

I would say yes, eventually.

[ElCabron]

It's been several years for those cases, too. I don't want to be greedy, but another round would be nice.

-Ryan

[Fripples]

Will we soon be able to bid on his ridiculously ancient computer that he has sitting on his desk? I'm assuming he'll need some money once he gets out of the chokey. :) *cough*

PS - Ray Charles saw this coming.

[travrosty]

Will the 2006 PSA world series of authentication title be in jeopardy now if charges are proved?

[Brian Van Horn]

For some (not saying me), the following clip may sum it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

[Jlighter]

American justice is almost comical when seen from a distance.

MF Global's Jon Corzine can't account for $1.6 billion of investors money and still enjoying the good life and yet the Feds are going after some guy that misrepresented an old baseball card and supposedly did some shill bidding on items consigned to his auction house. There are hundreds of Wall street crooks that should be served with papers ahead of these guys.

He's already paid the price for his mistakes as far as I am concerned.

Last I checked it is not against the law to lose peope's money in a legal manner. Again that was last I checked.

Jake Lighter

[ruth-gehrig]

Looking forward to seeing what comes of it.

[rainier2004]

I think a name is missing in this thread.......

[bijoem]

whoa, come on now, completely different company.

hahaha. lol.

[Jlighter]

This is devastating to me. My world has just been turned upside down. Along with Dave Kohler and Jerry Sandusky, there is no one I trust more than Doug Allen.

Can we assume additional indictments for shill bidding will follow shortly?

-Ryan

What did Dave Kohler do, I actually have no idea.

[Exhibitman]

But since Doug Allen was involved, fraud was still afoot.

allegedly...

Anyhow, it's not like being a convicted felon has ever prevented anyone from running an auction house. If Memory serves me well, that is. Or am I driving in the wrong Lane?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's been several years for those cases, too. I don't want to be greedy, but another round would be nice.

-Ryan

Ryan, what cases are those?

[SetBuilder]

x

[calvindog]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/bill-mastro-partners-indicted-fraud-charges-stemming-massive-sports-memorabilia-scam-article-1.1121644

And Bill Mastro is cooperating against Doug Allen!!!

[Brian Van Horn]

I'm just happy this happened long after Steinbach's passing. I remember when he was with Pat Quinn and I used to look forward to their listings in SCD.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/bill-mastro-partners-indicted-fraud-charges-stemming-massive-sports-memorabilia-scam-article-1.1121644

And Bill Mastro is cooperating against Doug Allen!!!

This should be interesting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mastro, the founder of Mastro Auctions and the brother of Randy Mastro, Rudy Giuliani's former deputy mayor and longtime aide, was charged with one count of wire and mail fraud. His attorney, Michael Monico, said he expects the case will be resolved without a trial, indicating that Mastro is cooperating with authorities.

Mastro dropped out of the hobby in 2009, after he shut down Mastro Auctions, which once generated as much as $50 million a year in sales. He sold his legendary memorabilia collection in 2010.

"Bill accepts responsibility for the actions that led to this case," Monico said. "For many years, Bill has dedicated himself to religious and charitable works."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/bill-mastro-partners-indicted-fraud-charges-stemming-massive-sports-memorabilia-scam-article-1.1121644#ixzz21gsqbCBq

[base_ball]

Cooperating indeed! I am suprised these quotes from Mastro's lawyer in the Daily News report didn't turn up in the US Attorney's press release:

"Bill accepts responsibility for the actions that led to this case," Monico said. "For many years, Bill has dedicated himself to religious and charitable works."

[FrankWakefield]

OldJudge, as for a trial timeframe, I'd think sometime between Jan 2013 and Sept 2013, as things now stand. And things are fluid. I doubt additional charges would be brought before trial, this seems something to which thought was given, so I'd think it's been thought through. And, a trial isn't a certainty...

Help friends, help strangers who need help... but don't throw a boat anchor to a drowning enemy. If that enemy deserves bad, then it will find him, without you getting involved. Don't tempt Karma... I wish them all well with it. I long for the days before grading, card investing, and the like; when cards were affordable and there was little incentive to trim or doctor a card.

[shelly]

The King is dead. Long live the King. It is really easy to hope someone goes to jail or even dies for the mistakes they made. It is amazing to me just how quick you can go from great to a piece of garbage. I think some of you might remember when Mastro was the king and you where his subjects.

I am more interested in all the people that authenticated for the King. Those are the people that allowed his royal subjects to buy and buy and buy. The card was always known to be a joke. Read the book or better yet play dumb.

Mastro, like me, has already cut a deal. I can tell you that none of you are going to be happy. BigJJ is wrong. Federal is a lot better than state. I know. He will go to a camp and do his time. He did not kill, rape or sell drugs to anyone. He did what many of you know. He lied cheated and defrauded people. This will pass like most things until the next guy gets arrested. Then the outrage will begin again. Welcome to Net 54. Shelly Jaffe net 54 member Leon wanted to make sure who posted this.

[keithsky]

Funny when someone gets in trouble with the law they are all of a sudden religious

[cobblove]

If the feds asked SGC to give there opinion on the PSA 8 wagner would it matter? In 2001 an SGC employee told me the story about how the wagner was trimmed yet PSA graded it. That is an authenticator respected by the hobby. Would that hold water in court, SGC vs PSA in a way. Just a thought. How could the feds prov the card was trimmed unless they have video tape of someone cutting the card. How could they prove this. It is a rumor thats rung through our hobby for years. If he is proven not guilty in the end should we think the wagner was never trimmed?

[Peter_Spaeth]

If the feds asked SGC to give there opinion on the PSA 8 wagner would it matter? In 2001 an SGC employee told me the story about how the wagner was trimmed yet PSA graded it. That is an authenticator respected by the hobby. Would that hold water in court, SGC vs PSA in a way. Just a thought. How could the feds prov the card was trimmed unless they have video tape of someone cutting the card. How could they prove this. It is a rumor thats rung through our hobby for years. If he is proven not guilty in the end should we think the wagner was never trimmed?

Since Bill is reported to be cooperating, and to have taken responsibility for his past actions, perhaps he admitted it. Or perhaps he admitted it in the past to someone else who came forward.

[Davy_Kangaroo_Jones]

Wowsers.

[cobblove]

Sounds like this card will have an * next to it.



Sad to see $ made this happen.

[brickyardkennedy]

Funny when someone gets in trouble with the law they are all of a sudden religious

Amen.

Um, I mean - I agree.

[bcornell]

I can tell you that none of you are going to be happy.

-1. I'm ecstatic, and will remain so.

Bill

[Exhibitman]

Me too, Bill. Now that the light is on it is going to be very satisfying watching the cockroaches run.

"sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants"--Justice Louis Brandeis

[warrior1978]

I wonder what this means for "Legendary Auctions". Certainly some type of press release or communication is in order to reinforce cosignor and bidder confidece.

[barrysloate]

With Bill finally admitting that the Wagner is trimmed, PSA will also have a lot of explaining to do. And I imagine the current owner of the card is due some serious restitution. What a f**king mess.

[glynparson]

Grading did not bring out the card doctors they were here well before grading. It did however make some of the better ones loads of money.

[Ladder7]

Ahhh retribution.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Grading did not bring out the card doctors they were here well before grading. It did however make some of the better ones loads of money.

Card doctoring was rampant in the early 90s when PSA started. Although it did not work out perfectly in practice, I think it did deter, and has deterred, at least the more blatant fraud. It was very helpful to me in learning who could be trusted and who could not in the days of buying blind through SCD ads.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

From the FBI Press Release:

The Code of Conduct also provided certain assurances that Mastro Auctions would disclose information about auction items that were altered or restored. After the code was published, Mastro and Allen allegedly failed to disclose alterations and caused restoration work to be done on baseball trading cards, despite assurances that no such work would be performed.

If it was admitted that the Wagner was trimmed, it appears other cards were doctored also, since there are allegations of "restoration work".

The next set of questions that beg to be asked, "Which cards?" "Were they graded by a TPG company?" "Which company" "Who restored them?"


http://www.fbi.gov/chicago/press-releases/2012/william-mastro-and-two-other-executives-of-former-mastro-auctions-indicted-for-allegedly-defrauding-bidders-in-online-and-live-auctions-of-sports-memorabilia-and-other-collectibles


As for my take of Third Party Grading, it was good initially in screening out a lot of amateur doctoring, but has failed miserably in detecting the many of the advanced alterations that are rampant in the industry today.

[bijoem]

I wonder what this means for "Legendary Auctions". Certainly some type of press release or communication is in order to reinforce cosignor and bidder confidece.


would a press release really reinforce consignor and bidder confidence?

[g_vezina_c55]

I hope the truth will be made arround this psa 8 wagner by the FBI, if it is legit or altered.

[calvindog]

would a press release really reinforce consignor and bidder confidence?

Well, when Doug would leave messages on my answering machine in 2006-7 about how wrong I was to accuse him and Mastro of fraud I always felt better. Of course, he continued to rip me and countless others off. But I still felt better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well, when Doug would leave messages on my answering machine in 2006-7 about how wrong I was to accuse he and Mastro of fraud I always felt better. Of course, he continued to rip me and countless others off. But I still felt better.

Jeff, "accuse" takes the accusative LOL -- accuse HIM.

[calvindog]

What the hell are you talking about?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I guess they don't teach grammar at inferior law schools.

[calvindog]

Lololol.

[sago]

What's the over/under on the Dreier collection finding a new auction home?

[slidekellyslide]

What's the over/under on the Dreier collection finding a new auction home?

I'm astounded they chose Legendary in the first place...certainly they knew they were under FBI investigation.

[Leon]

I'm astounded they chose Legendary in the first place...certainly they knew they were under FBI investigation.

My understanding is they have a vested interest in the company so it's really not that astounding. I am not positive of that but that is what I have heard.

[calvindog]

My understanding is they have a vested interest in the company so it's really not that astounding. I am not positive of that but that is what I have heard.

It would be appropriate for Legendary to put out some sort of release indicating who actually owns the place and what they will be doing going forward. And an honest press release for once.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My understanding is they have a vested interest in the company so it's really not that astounding. I am not positive of that but that is what I have heard.

Didn't Legendary promise it would disclose auction lots of its owners, or was that only its employees?

[base_ball]

Oh, and all of the contents of the baseball muckraking blog White Betsy were wiped yesterday with the announcement, "I have been asked to remove the contents of this website, and I have complied."

The other baseball muckraking web site was still standing as of this writing, in fact, we can't wait for its next report.

[Leon]

My understanding is they have a vested interest in the company so it's really not that astounding. I am not positive of that but that is what I have heard.

I just received a voice mail from Doug Allen stating the Driers don't have a financial interest in Legendary. I apologize if I made an error in my previous statement.

[Griffins]

He used his one call on that?
;)

[cardinalcollector]

He used his one call on that?
;)

Now THAT made me laugh out loud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heasnJY8HMM

[Edwolf1963]

Now THAT made me laugh out loud.

+1

[ls7plus]

Grading did not bring out the card doctors they were here well before grading. It did however make some of the better ones loads of money.

Glyn is right on. Grading exposed some of the quick and dirty card doctors, and some with a few more basic skills, such as running the card through a paper press to enlarge it, then cutting it back to standard size. It educated many of us as to what to look for back in the early to
mid-'90's in buying unslabbed cards, and which dealers to avoid.

Larry A. Smith

[ls7plus]

He used his one call on that?
;)

Now that's funny!

Best guys,

Larry

[Jaybird]

He used his one call on that?
;)

Hilarious.

[sago]

Maybe someone else placed the call for him.

[Howe’s Hunter]

Sitting at work and burst out laughing. Everyone is looking now like "what the hell is Ed doing." Busted.

Just like Mastro and Allen.

[bijoem]

He used his one call on that?
;)

that was funny. lol.

[Runscott]

It just shows how important Leon is.

[sox1903wschamp]

He used his one call on that?
;)

I'm in the "and I broke out in extreme laughter club" too :).

[lharri3600]

They should be!

the article states that mastro didn't disclose that the t206 wagner was altered by cutting it from the sheet, however, psa graded the card as an 8.

I wonder if psa will be investigated to see how that happened?

Tony

[lharri3600]

knowing psa they will stand by it. didn't the guy who graded the card state it was trimmed?

I think the phrase about the Wagner being trimmed and Mastro allegedly knowing this would only be part of the investigation and indictment release if the Feds have a plan to prove it was trimmed, otherwise why mention it? If they can prove it was trimmed, I think psa is in a conundrum. Would they then have to admit it is an "Authentic" or would they still stand by an 8? Would the Wagner get subpoenaed? That would be something.

[ruth-gehrig]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=154464

[lharri3600]

oh boy,
here we go with the charity religious song and dance!:eek:




Mastro, the founder of Mastro Auctions and the brother of Randy Mastro, Rudy Giuliani's former deputy mayor and longtime aide, was charged with one count of wire and mail fraud. His attorney, Michael Monico, said he expects the case will be resolved without a trial, indicating that Mastro is cooperating with authorities.

Mastro dropped out of the hobby in 2009, after he shut down Mastro Auctions, which once generated as much as $50 million a year in sales. He sold his legendary memorabilia collection in 2010.

"Bill accepts responsibility for the actions that led to this case," Monico said. "For many years, Bill has dedicated himself to religious and charitable works."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/bill-mastro-partners-indicted-fraud-charges-stemming-massive-sports-memorabilia-scam-article-1.1121644#ixzz21gsqbCBq

[base_ball]

Didn't see it posted, so here is a link to a raw copy the indictment:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2012/pr0725_01a.pdf

[lharri3600]

lmao

[Peter_Spaeth]

For those of you not familiar with these individuals, here are two informative articles:

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=4511

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=4763

"Article not found."

[Anthony S.]

"Article not found."

That's odd. The articles were there yesterday. I'm sure PSA is just experiencing a server glitch. Like that glitch in Russia where Trotsky disappeared from all the photos.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hick0088/classes/csci_2101/false.html

[WhenItWasAHobby]

"Article not found."

Hmm. That is strange. Try this link:

http://www.psacard.com/SiteSearch.chtml?cx=005421754352028250572%3Aemdadd ljl1a&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=mastro

[travrosty]

He does seem to be religious, as evident of this part of the indictment.

i.
Beginning no later than in or about 2001 and continuing until at least in or about December 2008, defendant MASTRO placed shill bids, and caused others to place shill bids, using several accounts, including defendant MASTRO’s account, a fictitious account, Mastro Auctions’ corporate bidding account, employee accounts, and accounts in the names of defendant MASTRO’s family members, a priest, and others.

[wonkaticket]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/bill-mastro-partners-indicted-fraud-charges-stemming-massive-sports-memorabilia-scam-article-1.1121644

I was shocked to see Peter Nash’s name in the article isn’t the author aware Peter is trying to make the hobby a better place?

[calvindog]

I just received a voice mail from Doug Allen stating the Driers don't have a financial interest in Legendary. I apologize if I made an error in my previous statement.

Unless Doug is hooked up to a polygraph machine, any statement he makes is presumed to be false and an effort to steal more of our money.

[wonkaticket]

One bright side of this mess is at least next year’s National finding dealers/auction houses booths should be a simple process.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/20110404_jailphoto.jpg

"Can I see that Cobb item?" Buyer

"Open up 23!" Guard

[turtleguy64]

does PSA get off the hook in this ? For years collectors have felt that PSA was quite liberal in grading Mastronet submitted collectibles.Hard to prove ,just conjecture.How many of you guys think that Joe Orlando gets entangled in this fiasco ?

[e107collector]

One bright side of this mess is at least next year’s National finding dealers/auction houses booths should be a simple process.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/net54shared/large/20110404_jailphoto.jpg

"Can I see that Cobb item?" Buyer

"Open up 23!" Guard

John,

That's funny!!

Tony

[Runscott]

I don't see how PSA can avoid it, but Peter and Jeff should have insights.

[calvindog]

I don't have any personal knowledge but I suspect Joe Orlando gave all the info he has on this issue to the prosecutors. And if any of it was valuable he most likely testified in the grand jury. At some point the full truth wil come out which is good for us, not so good for Doug and Bill.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't see how PSA can avoid it, but Peter and Jeff should have insights.

PSA may just play ostrich, that has worked for them before. Surely it can't admit it knowingly slabbed a trimmed card, but the alternative -- saying it made a mistake on the first and most important card it ever graded -- isn't very palatable either.

I suppose it could try to distance itself from Bill Hughes, claim that it never would have condoned what he did if it had known the card was trimmed, and emphasize that Hughes only was at PSA a short time.

I suppose it depends in part on Bill's story, assuming he tells it. If he implicates David Hall, that doesn't create very much wiggle room.

[calvindog]

I suspect Joe told the Feds the truth about card -- I don't believe he's been charged with lying to a federal officer. I suspect Joe is praying this case doesn't go to trial.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I suspect Joe told the Feds the truth about card -- I don't believe he's been charged with lying to a federal officer. I suspect Joe is praying this case doesn't go to trial.

Whether it does or not PSA has a public relations issue on their hands. They can keep talk off the CU board, but that won't be enough, especially with the National coming up, etc.

[calvindog]

I think you forget you're talking about Joe Orlando. He'd rather eat thumbtacks than tell the truth publicly about that card. In a grand jury under oath? Different story.

[Jay Wolt]

The Wagner was the 1st card PSA graded. I wonder how many current employees (Incl Joe O.) were even at PSA?
So I doub't anyone has 1st hand knowledge of the slabbing.
So perhaps the feds need to talk to Hughes, Rochhi or anyone that was working there 15 years ago or so.

[calvindog]

Just because he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what happened with the card doesn't mean he's unaware of what occurred. It would be nice for PSA to tell the truth about it publicly. Eventually it will come out and eventually the present owner might want compensation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Wagner was the 1st card PSA graded. I wonder how many current employees (Incl Joe O.) were even at PSA?
So I doub't anyone has 1st hand knowledge of the slabbing.
So perhaps the feds need to talk to Hughes, Rochhi or anyone that was working there 15 years ago or so.

I think Steve Rocchi came later, as did Mike Baker and Joe. Probably David Hall is the only holdover.

[e107collector]

Just because he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what happened with the card doesn't mean he's unaware of what occurred. It would be nice for PSA to tell the truth about it publicly. Eventually it will come out and eventually the present owner might want compensation.

Jeff,

Do you know how a situation like that may be handled? If Ken wants his money back for the card, and PSA gives it to him, does he have to turn the card over to PSA at that point? Does he get the money and keep the card?
Just curious.

Tony

[three25hits]

I had a PSA card that was mis-graded. I got full payment, they kept the card.

[ruth-gehrig]

Has everyone already seen this but me?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's from an old Lipset auction. What about it?

[ruth-gehrig]

Just something I've never seen before. Circumstantial evidence at a minimum; perhaps more? Wasn't it always speculated that Mastro had the card cut? If so why is Lipset selling it uncut??:confused:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just something I've never seen before. Circumstantial evidence at a minimum; perhaps more? Wasn't it always speculated that Mastro had the card cut? If so why is Lipset selling it uncut??:confused:

I thought the Lipset one was the so-called Jumbo Wagner that ended up in a 5MC holder, but I could be wrong. I have never heard that Alan Ray -- who owned the raw PSA 8 before Mastro bought it -- got it from Lipset. I thought the known chain of custody ended with him.

[ruth-gehrig]

Ok Thanks! That does make more sense. I'm sure others will chime in on this as well.

[barrysloate]

Peter- I believe that card is currently in the Hall of Fame. The "jumbo Wagner" is a different example.

I feel that the current owner of the PSA 8 Wagner should get substantial compensation, and then I think PSA should take it back and relabel it "AUTH". Once they do that it's a perfectly marketable card at any time with a spectacular eye appeal. Plus, it will finally be properly graded. If all this information becomes public it can't remain in an 8 holder.

[ruth-gehrig]

So when Lipset stated "probably the finest copy known to exist", he was unaware of the Wagner Lifson/Mastro bought? What happened to the Plank that was listed in ex-mt and Lajoie near mint??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Peter- I believe that card is currently in the Hall of Fame. The "jumbo Wagner" is a different example.

I feel that the current owner of the PSA 8 Wagner should get substantial compensation, and then I think PSA should take it back and relabel it "AUTH". Once they do that it's a perfectly marketable card at any time with a spectacular eye appeal. Plus, it will finally be properly graded. If all this information becomes public it can't remain in an 8 holder.

Ah thanks Barry. I have seen the HOF one but I don't recall it being particularly oversize. It was quite some time ago though.

How does PSA explain itself if it does that? Does it blame Bill Hughes? Fall on its sword and say our bad?

[bh3443]

Any one else see this video "Wagner testing".......... think it's from the Cobb/Edwards card.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gItjwny1Zk

[calvindog]

Jeff,

Do you know how a situation like that may be handled? If Ken wants his money back for the card, and PSA gives it to him, does he have to turn the card over to PSA at that point? Does he get the money and keep the card?
Just curious.

Tony

Tony, the owner could theoretically get his money back for his card but not be permitted to keep it as well. Or he could just be paid compensation for the difference in value of an 8 and an AUTH (albeit pristine) Wagner. In either case, Joe would probably have to give up buying hair dye for a few years.

[3-2-count]

In either case, Joe would probably have to give up buying hair dye for a few years.

Hmmmm. And all this time I thought it was natural.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Didn't see it posted, so here is a link to a raw copy the indictment:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2012/pr0725_01a.pdf

Thanks for posting this.

[RUSH2112]

Peter- I believe that card is currently in the Hall of Fame. The "jumbo Wagner" is a different example.

I feel that the current owner of the PSA 8 Wagner should get substantial compensation, and then I think PSA should take it back and relabel it "AUTH". Once they do that it's a perfectly marketable card at any time with a spectacular eye appeal. Plus, it will finally be properly graded. If all this information becomes public it can't remain in an 8 holder.

Is it possible the card may be worth more in it's original PSA 8 holder?

The slab is what makes the card infamous or famous, whichever you prefer and the developing story makes it more interesting to collectors as each day passes. Afterall, this is the card everyone is talking about, not the other ones that are technically a better grade.

[barrysloate]

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

[e107collector]

Let's say that the PSA 8 Wagner gets reholdered to a PSA Auth slab.

What is the next best Wagner available at that point? PSA 5?

Tony

[T206DK]

The article states that Mastro didn't disclose that the T206 Wagner was altered by cutting it from the sheet, however, PSA graded the card as an 8.

I wonder if PSA will be investigated to see how that happened?

Tony

I would hope that something is now done about the misrepresented Wagner card, and the company that made its name off of grading it.
This whole story is shameful

[atx840]

According to Legendary ;)

1. PSA NM-MT 8: Bill Mastro → Jim Copeland → Wayne Gretzky/Bruce McNall → Mike Gidwitz/Rob Lifson → Brian Siegel → Private Investor

2. Borderline NM (and oversized): Lew Lipset → Mastro → Barry Halper → Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown

3. EX+ or slightly better (with strong corners): Richard Gelman → Corey Shanus

4. PSA EX 5: Leland’s → Mastro → Scott Ireland

5. PSA EX 5 MC (“jumbo”-sized): Mastro → John Rogers

6. EX: Mastro → Dr. Robert Goode → Mark Macrae

7. EX: Larry Fritsch

8. VG-EX 4: The Dreier Collection

9. EX appearance (but adhered to an album page): Jefferson Burdick → Metropolitan Museum of Art.

[T206DK]

allegedly...

Anyhow, it's not like being a convicted felon has ever prevented anyone from running an auction house. If memory serves me well, that is. Or am i driving in the wrong lane?

lol ! :)

[T206DK]

does PSA get off the hook in this ? For years collectors have felt that PSA was quite liberal in grading Mastronet submitted collectibles.Hard to prove ,just conjecture.How many of you guys think that Joe Orlando gets entangled in this fiasco ?

now that would really cause a stir in our hobby

[turtleguy64]

Tom, get your hands on a copy of The Card.That will give you enlightenment to the background in this case.I just got it from a friend and after reading it,it changed how i look at this hobby.

[esd10]

all i can say is wow and what is psa going to do? refund the money these people spent on the wagner? so its a a psa auth because it has been altered.

[esd10]

the book the card shed alot of light on the t206 wagner and was a great read

[gnaz01]

He used his one call on that?
;)

Now that's funny!!

[Pup6913]

If my statements have harmed Jon Corizines reputation then please, by all means, remove my post. Should his lawyer call, feel free to give him or her my full name and phone number, which you already have in your database.

Thats not the point. The point is it's the rules and this isn't the first thread you have made comments in that should have required your name. I really don't have any say in this but you should respect the rules like everyone else.

[T206DK]

Whether it does or not PSA has a public relations issue on their hands. They can keep talk off the CU board, but that won't be enough, especially with the National coming up, etc.

this story will be the talk of the National !

[T206DK]

I think you forget you're talking about Joe Orlando. He'd rather eat thumbtacks than tell the truth publicly about that card. In a grand jury under oath? Different story.

Doesn't Orlando have a law degree ?

[T206DK]

Just because he doesn't have first-hand knowledge of what happened with the card doesn't mean he's unaware of what occurred. It would be nice for PSA to tell the truth about it publicly. Eventually it will come out and eventually the present owner might want compensation.

Jeff, do you think any of the prior owners have legal recourse ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Doesn't Orlando have a law degree ?

yes

[FrankWakefield]

RUSH2112 should have his name disclosed with his posts, Andrew is correct.

[Leon]

RUSH2112 should have his name disclosed with his posts, Andrew is correct.

He does now.

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you, Sir.

[wonkaticket]

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

+1

I’ve always said I find it sad and funny that the cornerstone of our hobby and the grading phenomenon is a well-known altered card.

[Runscott]

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

Well-said. Looking forward to seeing what comes out of this - how it affects the card's icon status, price, the hobby, etc.

[brookdodger55]

Maybe Calvindog Can answer this or anyone else with legal experience ?

If an item was put into Mastro's auction and illegal activity took place with inflated prices. Can the seller of the item who recieved an inflated price (Possibly
illegally) be subjected to a clawback of illegal profits that were realized. (Can what happened in the Bernie Madoff case happen in this case with illegal profits). Any info greatly appecieated.

[calvindog]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/13989222-418/chicago-auction-house-linked-to-sports-memorabilia-fraud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

[Runscott]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/13989222-418/chicago-auction-house-linked-to-sports-memorabilia-fraud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

That throws an Allen wrench into everything :(

[Anthony S.]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/13989222-418/chicago-auction-house-linked-to-sports-memorabilia-fraud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

Mastro must be petro-fied.

[egbeachley]

If an item was put into Mastro's auction and illegal activity took place with inflated prices. Can the seller of the item who recieved an inflated price (Possibly illegally) be subjected to a clawback of illegal profits that were realized. (Can what happened in the Bernie Madoff case happen in this case with illegal profits). Any info greatly appecieated.

I think that's a definite "yes". But it may be hard to collect the alleged overpayment. If an item was inflated by 20%, say from $100K to $120K, then the auction house roughly collected an extra $3K in fees. The consignor received the rest. The extra $3K in fees are likely gone now (salaries, rent, profit, etc.) except to the extent that the guilty persons are held personally liable. But if they got rich over the business, they got rich over the fees, not the overpayment. So the consignor has the rest, $17K in this example, and good luck going back to him.

[calvindog]

I don't imagine the government will be looking to 'clawback' any ill-gotten gains unless the consignors were in on the fraud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/13989222-418/chicago-auction-house-linked-to-sports-memorabilia-fraud-case.html

Allen’s attorney, Michael J. Petro said his client is “absolutely” planning to fight the charges — and pointed the finger at Mastro.

“Bill Mastro is the Mastromind,” Petro said.


LOLOLOL

When this is all over, Bill and Doug will be shills of their former selves.

[calvindog]

You never provided the punchline to your last joke last night. Is that nice? You've kept me in suspense for hours.

[base_ball]

I just dug this up. Yes, it's a lousy Photoshop job, but it wasn't for that reason that I got in trouble for posting it on this board shortly after the publication of "The Card." Well, it looks like we can now all agree that O.J. did it.

[calvindog]

Hey, that's pretty good.

[Matthew H]

It's nice to see that Bill and Doug have been able to remain such good friends through all this.

[sporteq]

I open the bid at: $5.00 on this rarity :)


AL

I just dug this up. Yes, it's a lousy Photoshop job, but it wasn't for that reason that I got in trouble for posting it on this board shortly after the publication of "The Card." Well, it looks like we can now all agree that O.J. did it.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69957&stc=1&d=1343409820

[Anthony S.]

I just dug this up. Yes, it's a lousy Photoshop job, but it wasn't for that reason that I got in trouble for posting it on this board shortly after the publication of "The Card." Well, it looks like we can now all agree that O.J. did it.

That's great. Gotta say, the level of schadenfreude I'm feeling right now is obscene. Honesty ain't that tough.

[travrosty]

if the card is trimmed, and people don't care, and it doesnt take a hit in value like mr. anonymous said, and actually gains in value, just try trimming it a little more and see if you can get an 8.5 out of it.

[irishdenny]

You can't have the most famous and most valuable card in the hobby remain a sham. It's not an 8 and never was. It's time for it to be reholdered.

It's very possible the current owner would refuse to do it, as is his prerogative. Or maybe he bought it because he wanted to own the best baseball card in existence, and now he will realize it isn't. So PSA or the seller or the previous owner has to compensate him big time, and then he can have it reholdered. It's still a gorgeous card and would sell for a whole lot of money. But not for millions, and not as a NR MT/MT.

If the hobby is to be purged of all this garbage, that card has to be a part of it.

I have to say that this quote brought me to a cheering, applauding roar! I felt like I was in the thick of one of Mcgreevy's Spirited Speeches. Standing in the middle of Boston's 3rd Base pub with a pint in hand as Barry... Ahhmm, I mean McGreevy, sprayed the best ale all over anyone in his speaking path as he carried out this victorious volley of wisdom.

Nuf Ced...

[calvindog]

More investigations and arrests will clean the hobby up, unfortunately. Too much money to be made by fraud; the criminals need to believe there is a good chance they'll get caught and punished. End of story.

[Wymers Auction]

More investigations and arrests will clean the hobby up, unfortunately. Too much money to be made by fraud; the criminals need to believe there is a good chance they'll get caught and punished. End of story.

Now if they would go after Coaches Corner.

[T206DK]

Now if they would go after Coaches Corner.

I am betting this is not the only high profile set of indictments that we will hear about. back in 2007-8 is the first I heard of this investigation. This may just be the tip of the iceberg so to speak.

[travrosty]

probably right, when they agree to cooperate, like mastro did, they are required to tell ALL about what they know about illegal activity 100%, no holding back. and the feds are serious about it. wayne bray had to spill the beans about everything he knew, and they made him aware that they werent going to tolerate him holding back. I am sure mastro was a wealth of information.

[Leon]

probably right, when they agree to cooperate, like mastro did, they are required to tell ALL about what they know about illegal activity 100%, no holding back. and the feds are serious about it. wayne bray had to spill the beans about everything he knew, and they made him aware that they werent going to tolerate him holding back. I am sure mastro was a wealth of information.

How are they going to "require" someone to tell all? Maybe water boarding?How are they going to know if there is a shred of info not being told? My guess is the Feds base their decisions on what info is gained, not what is not gained. My understanding is that there are quite a few ex-employees that have given information. I think that is where a lot of it comes from....oh, and the subpoena's handed out....those probably rake in bit of info too. And the authorities probably talk to a lot of people in the hobby who aren't right in the middle of the issues. But these are all just educated guesses and maybe a tiny bit of first hand knowledge. As I told a good friend a few days ago, if I know something bad in the hobby, I have no issue sharing that with the proper authorities. I truly want this to be as clean of a hobby as is possible. I hope all of my friends feel the same way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think all Travis means is that if the Feds believe Bill isn't fully cooperating, they may not be lenient with him, and that would incentivize him not to hold back.

[Leon]

I think all Travis means is that if the Feds believe Bill isn't fully cooperating, they may not be lenient with him, and that would incentivize him not to hold back.

I can agree with that of course.

[calvindog]

I think all Travis means is that if the Feds believe Bill isn't fully cooperating, they may not be lenient with him, and that would incentivize him not to hold back.

Cooperators are required to discuss ALL of their criminal activities, not just what reates to the case at hand. The government may want to make new cases with that info. Plus, a defense lawyer for a client who knows Bill so well most likely knows about a lot of this unrelated criminal activity and will surely cross examine Bill on it during the case. If Bill holds back his cooperation deal could be ripped up and he'd spend a longer time in jail before being released and going back to washing the lepers' feet. Bottom line: the Feds don't need Bill's cooperation to convict Doug so if Bill has an ounce of a brain left in his sainted head he'd best come clean.

Which means: whoever else conspired with Bill on a crime which was either Mastro Auctions-related or not should be very nervous right now.

[Misunderestimated]

From what I can tell these guys hired fairly big name, and therefore expensive, criminal defense lawyers out here.

Unless they have prior criminal records I would ultimately expect assorted plea agreements that might bring others down and would lead to penalties -- fines and perhaps agreements barring them re-entering the sports memorabilia business for a while or life -- but no real prison time.
What may be brought to light along the way could of course expose them to civil liability if the harmed individuals want to pursue it and that's way the plea agreements are a rather tricky test for the charged parties and their lawyers.

This will become yet another part of the saga of the card, Wagner T206, in general. The specific "altered" card will no longer universally acclaimed as the "best one" -- it will remain the most famous specimen.

T206 Wagners generally will continue to be the "most famous, most valuable, and rarest baseball card" (yes I know its not the rarest by a long shot and that a certain low end Wagner is not more valuable that the highest end of specimen of some other cards but that's the narrative to the outside world)

[calvindog]

I disagree with nearly all of that.

[Misunderestimated]

I disagree with nearly all of that.

That's fine.

[T206DK]

From what I can tell these guys hired fairly big name, and therefore expensive, criminal defense lawyers out here.

Unless they have prior criminal records I would ultimately expect assorted plea agreements that might bring others down and would lead to penalties -- fines and perhaps agreements barring them re-entering the sports memorabilia business for a while or life -- but no real prison time.
What may be brought to light along the way could of course expose them to civil liability if the harmed individuals want to pursue it and that's way the plea agreements are a rather tricky test for the charged parties and their lawyers.

This will become yet another part of the saga of the card, Wagner T206, in general. The specific "altered" card will no longer universally acclaimed as the "best one" -- it will remain the most famous specimen.

T206 Wagners generally will continue to be the "most famous, most valuable, and rarest baseball card" (yes I know its not the rarest by a long shot and that a certain low end Wagner is not more valuable that the highest end of specimen of some other cards but that's the narrative to the outside world)

someone will be doing some time in prison for this.....how long, remains to be seen. High priced lawyer or not. Tip of the iceberg most likley

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I was once told by a Federal law enforcement agent that they only indict people when its pretty much a slam dunk of getting a conviction. Of course the Clemens trial proved that wrong, but that could be explained away by relying on Andy Pettite, graduate of advanced studies from the Frank Pentangeli School of Witness Testimony. See training video below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90XT5GWlKaE

[bbcard1]

Had it been established who the cutter was?

[calvindog]

I think the idea of a "slam dunk case" is very different from a defense lawyer's perspective.

[RichardSimon]

That's great. Gotta say, the level of schadenfreude I'm feeling right now is obscene. Honesty ain't that tough.

+1

[E93]

I think the idea of a "slam dunk case" is very different from a defense lawyer's perspective.

Can we bring you in as an expert witness on this point? ;)
JimB

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I think the idea of a "slam dunk case" is very different from a defense lawyer's perspective.

Very true.

[Boomer]

All three will walk

[calvindog]

Walk where? And one of the 'three' appears to be cooperating with the feds as hinted by his lawyer.

[Leon]

Walk where?


No where in particular. Just a morning stroll.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Walk where? And one of the 'three' appears to be cooperating with the feds as hinted by his lawyer.

If you had your way, they would be walking the plank.

[calvindog]

Well, they ARE great guys.

[T206DK]

All three will walk

the "perp" walk

[drc]

Just brings to mind the Malcolm in the Middle perp walk scene. The father (Bryan Cranston) was arrested at his home, but it was a minor crime so the cops did the perp walk on his front lawn.

[RichardSimon]

Well, they ARE great guys.


And why would anyone think otherwise?

[calvindog]

Has Legendary sent out a mass email addressing the indictment of its top executives? I've been banned from bidding in their auctions for a while so I'm unsure whether they've addressed the events of last week. Considering the angst that would-be consignors and bidders surely must be feeling now, I can't imagine that Doug hasn't at least confirmed that the company is a going concern, that he will not be leading the company until his criminal fraud charges are resolved, etc. Anything?

[Jaybird]

Haven't seen anything. Seems the MO of auction houses that are under fire is to duck and cover.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Has Legendary sent out a mass email addressing the indictment of its top executives? I've been banned from bidding in their auctions for a while so I'm unsure whether they've addressed the events of last week. Considering the angst that would-be consignors and bidders surely must be feeling now, I can't imagine that Doug hasn't at least confirmed that the company is a going concern, that he will not be leading the company until his criminal fraud charges are resolved, etc. Anything?

What happened to the presumption of innoncence?

[Leon]

What happened to the presumption of innoncence?

Well Peter, he did say "charges". I was kind of curious of that too. From the few emails and snail mail I have received from Legendary I haven't seen anything to address the issue. That might not be a bad strategy though at this point. I hope this whole mess gets over with quickly and we can move to more positive things in our hobby. I can't be "happy" about the whole situation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right, I am just questioning Jeff's suggestion that Doug has an obligation to step down until the charges against him are resolved. That sounds like a presumption of guilt. That said, I am not sure playing ostrich is a great PR strategy with a major auction coming up and others in the pipeline.

[calvindog]

What happened to the presumption of innoncence?

Which word did I mention which suggested that there was no presumption of innocence? And does the presumption of innocence prevent the government from freezing the assets of an entity which could be claimed to be proceeds of a crime? Does the presumption of innocence come with a guarantee that all businesses operated by those under indictment are required by law to remain open and not be forced into bankruptcy? Ask Arthur Andersen about the pre-conviction impact of an indictment.

And it's not a presumption of guilt for the top executives of a business to step aside upon being indicted for fraud in the very type of business that they are running. More like common sense.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jeff, I am not sure Legendary is big enough that its two top executives can simply step aside while the judicial process plays out. It certainly will be interesting to see what impact, if any, this has on the upcoming auctions.

[calvindog]

They're not so big that they can't address the 600 pound gorilla sitting in the corner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They're not so big that they can't address the 600 pound gorilla sitting in the corner.

Would you feel better if they sent an email saying we deny the charges and intend to vigorously contest them?

[calvindog]

Would you feel better if they sent an email saying we deny the charges and intend to vigorously contest them?

No, they've already said that in the papers through their lawyers. I think it prudent that they at least address the impact if any the charges will have on their business, their consignors, their customers, etc. and what, if any, efforts they are making to ensure that Legendary will be a going concern. Don't the people who have spent millions of dollars with Legendary and Mastro at least deserve that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

No, they've already said that in the papers through their lawyers. I think it prudent that they at least address the impact if any the charges will have on their business, their consignors, their customers, etc. and what, if any, efforts they are making to ensure that Legendary will be a going concern. Don't the people who have spent millions of dollars with Legendary and Mastro at least deserve that?

Maybe Leon will get another message on his voice mail. :D

[Leon]

Maybe Leon will get another message on his voice mail. :D

I doubt it.

And not like I am a pushover but I have to concur with Jeff. They do have at least one executive not indicted, with 30+ yrs in the industry, that could easily temporarily fill in. I think an interim president wouldn't be a bad thing to consider. It's not my company but I do have a small vested interest in the way of some consignments coming up. I had to rob Peter to pay Paul (irony intended) as I am a hopelessly addicted type card collector and had to pay for my last winnings somehow :). I will mention that Doug has always helped in some of my collecting endeavors. The rest remains to be seen and of course if I was ever shill bid I won't be the happiest collector, nor would anyone.

[base_ball]

Just a rumor, but I've heard that they are putting the finishing touches on mug shot promo cards for distribution at the National. The cards will feature a "Criminal Code of Conduct" on the verso of the booking photo.

[sago]

Mastro and Legendary Auctions have nothing to do with each other. Just because all 3 people used to work for Mastro Auctions and commited fraud, does not mean that the two that bought out Mastro, sold his collection for him, have all the Mastro auction results on their site, etc., should mean anything to current consignors as they surely have not done anything wrong since. (tongue in cheek smiley)

David davis

[T206DK]

They're not so big that they can't address the 600 pound gorilla sitting in the corner.

Indeed !

[calvindog]

Ok, everyone relax. I saw the email from Legendary. It didn't explain anything regarding the indictments of its top executives for shill bidding -- but it did invite bidders to make maximum, online proxy bids for its live auction this week.

I love America!!!

[base_ball]

Craig "Proxy" Helling?

[T206Collector]

Golden Balls Auction:

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=34377

What do we make of the red text at the top of the auction description? Does it help their case?

Elvis Hair Auction:

Also, with respect to the Elvis hair, what do we make of the note in the letter of authentication that "it is my opinion that short of comparing mitochondrial DNA with that of known Presley relatives, the hair in the bag is also authentic."

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=88257


Can Mastro/Legendary successfully shield themselves from liability by putting (albeit weak) disclaimers and conditional lines in their auctions and/or letters of authenticity?

My prediction is pleas of guilty from all involved, but no jail time -- only probation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Paul, in my judgment if a seller omits material information that casts doubt on an item's authenticity, a disclaimer doesn't protect it against a fraud claim.

[T206Collector]

I think the (albeit weak) conditions and disclaimers will go to whether the auction house made any "false" representations. Here's the lingo for mail fraud. 18 U.S.C. § 1341 provides:

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

I'll revise my initial prediction of probation, to include a substantial monetary fine and, of course, restitution. But, I'm still going to say no jail time. I also think Legendary Auctions will survive this particular blow.

[calvindog]

Paul, I'll take that action all day.

[T206Collector]

Even Alfred Taubman, convicted Sotheby's price-fixer, was sentenced to just a year and a day in prison -- though he was fined $7.5 million. And how about Diane "DeDe Brooks" who did 6 months house arrest? Do we think what they did was better or worse? And when did Sotheby's go out of business exactly?





A Taubman's Bidder End. Sotheby's Big Prison-Bound as Appeal is Nixed, John Lehmann, New York Post, 07/26/2002, p. 16.
The Post reported here that "Convicted Sotheby's price-fixer Alfred Taubman has consigned himself to becoming a multimillionaire inmate next week after his appeal was thrown out yesterday."

A three-judge appeals panel in Manhattan heard his appeal and ruled that any errors in his price-fixing trial were "harmless."

Mr. Taubman was sentenced to a year and a day in prison and fined $7.5 million. Apparently the extra day made the sentence just long enough to qualify for early release.

At the hearing before the appeals panel, Mr. Taubman's lawyers brought yet another name to the attention of the public. They accused another ex-Sotheby's board member, Lord Thomas Camoys, of conspiring with Christie's chief Sir Anthony Tennant in April 1995.

Mr. Taubman's lawyers also objected to a quotation used by the prosecution in summing up the case to the jury. The quote was from the economic classic, "The Wealth of Nations" written by the 18th-century economist Adam Smith. The quote said, "People in the same trade seldom meet together even for merriment or diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public and in some contrivance to raise prices."

The Post then reported that in their decision not to grant the appeal, the Court ruled that the government had relied on 'the overwhelming direct evidence of Taubman's knowledge of and participation in the conspiracy."

* * *

Sotheby's Convict is Sprung, Adam Miller, New York Post, 11/10/2002.
Mr. Miller wrote here that "Disgraced auction empress Diana 'DeDe' Brooks laid low yesterday, a day after she completed her six months of house arrest for her role in a price-fixing scheme."

He explained that the former president of Sotheby's was sentenced earlier in the year after pleading guilty to fixing commissions and fees with rival art auction house, Christie's, and testifying against Alfred Taubman, her boss, who was sentenced to a year and a day for his role in the conspiracy.

He also wrote that "the deposed auction queen" also received three years probation, a $350,000 fine and 1,000 hours of community sentence and that the judge called her "a thief and a convict."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Failure to disclose a known material fact is a textbook definition of civil fraud. In the face of that, a disclaimer is useless. Is this somehow different under the criminal mail and wire fraud statutes? I doubt it. It certainly sounds like "false pretenses" to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sotheby's is a bit player compared to Mastro!!!

[steve B]

Sotheby's is a bit player compared to Mastro!!!

I'm not seeing this. Sothebys did 5.8 Billion in 2011 with over 1400 employees.

Mastro wasn't even in that league were they?

Steve B

[barrysloate]

Peter was being sarcastic....note the three exclamation points.

[calvindog]

Even Alfred Taubman, convicted Sotheby's price-fixer, was sentenced to just a year and a day in prison -- though he was fined $7.5 million. And how about Diane "DeDe Brooks" who did 6 months house arrest? Do we think what they did was better or worse? And when did Sotheby's go out of business exactly?





A Taubman's Bidder End. Sotheby's Big Prison-Bound as Appeal is Nixed, John Lehmann, New York Post, 07/26/2002, p. 16.
The Post reported here that "Convicted Sotheby's price-fixer Alfred Taubman has consigned himself to becoming a multimillionaire inmate next week after his appeal was thrown out yesterday."

A three-judge appeals panel in Manhattan heard his appeal and ruled that any errors in his price-fixing trial were "harmless."

Mr. Taubman was sentenced to a year and a day in prison and fined $7.5 million. Apparently the extra day made the sentence just long enough to qualify for early release.

At the hearing before the appeals panel, Mr. Taubman's lawyers brought yet another name to the attention of the public. They accused another ex-Sotheby's board member, Lord Thomas Camoys, of conspiring with Christie's chief Sir Anthony Tennant in April 1995.

Mr. Taubman's lawyers also objected to a quotation used by the prosecution in summing up the case to the jury. The quote was from the economic classic, "The Wealth of Nations" written by the 18th-century economist Adam Smith. The quote said, "People in the same trade seldom meet together even for merriment or diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public and in some contrivance to raise prices."

The Post then reported that in their decision not to grant the appeal, the Court ruled that the government had relied on 'the overwhelming direct evidence of Taubman's knowledge of and participation in the conspiracy."

* * *

Sotheby's Convict is Sprung, Adam Miller, New York Post, 11/10/2002.
Mr. Miller wrote here that "Disgraced auction empress Diana 'DeDe' Brooks laid low yesterday, a day after she completed her six months of house arrest for her role in a price-fixing scheme."

He explained that the former president of Sotheby's was sentenced earlier in the year after pleading guilty to fixing commissions and fees with rival art auction house, Christie's, and testifying against Alfred Taubman, her boss, who was sentenced to a year and a day for his role in the conspiracy.

He also wrote that "the deposed auction queen" also received three years probation, a $350,000 fine and 1,000 hours of community sentence and that the judge called her "a thief and a convict."

Again, I'll take that action all day and night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm not seeing this. Sothebys did 5.8 Billion in 2011 with over 1400 employees.

Mastro wasn't even in that league were they?

Steve B



Does size really matter when you are evil incarnate?;)

[tbob]

For some (not saying me), the following clip may sum it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME



Touche! LOL

[T206Collector]

Again, I'll take that action all day and night.

Then you'd be willing to give me odds?

[tbob]

Interesting to see Mastro's lawyer play the "lifelong religious good deeds doer" card.
I agree with leon's comment about how if he found out he had been shilled in bidding in Mastro auctions in the past, he would be infuriated. I would too, but how in the world will we ever know? We can suspect we were, but realistically we will never know. The mere suspicion of shill bidding lead me to quit making high proxy bids and instead end up staying up in to the wee hours and placing a bid on lots I wanted near the end of the auction.
Personally I know Doug Allen, as many on the board do, and from a personal standpoint I hope Doug comes through this all right, but, again like some on the board, I find all this very troubling and worrisome :(
I agree with a former poster who alluded to the fact the feds don't normally like to indict unless they believe they have an iron clad case, but they do occasionally make mistakes, usually in conspiracy cases or cases with multiple defendants.
What a mess......

[Copa7]

I picked up the book - THE CARD - in a book store and read the entire thing. It opened my eyes to the grading / auction world.

I would only get cards graded for the purpose of being slabbed for preservation. PSA have been less than consistent in their grading. I cannot say if there is bias to high end customers or preferred clients.

Like any endeavor that makes money, the temptation to fraud is always present. Research, ask questions and go with your gut instincts.

[steve B]

Does size really matter when you are evil incarnate?;)

Missed the exclamation points:confused: Maybe the internet has made my mind automatically ignore them.

I suppose size doesn't matter when it comes to people or companies doing bad things. It shouldn't.

But the sothebys guy did 10 months for some anti trust crime
And a bunch of bankers did far less if any for stupid but maybe not criminal stuff and didn't even lose their jobs.

I have no doubts about how much of the 20 years I'd do if I did some sort of postal fraud. (Likely most of it)

I'm not sure where fraud ranks on my mental "evil incarnate " list. Probably not in the top 50. It's bad, but there's lots of worse things.

Steve B

[Matthew H]

I would only get cards graded for the purpose of being slabbed for preservation...

Have you ever heard of a one screw? It has the same level of protection for less then 5% cost. Plus, you can take the card out if you want.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Missed the exclamation points:confused: Maybe the internet has made my mind automatically ignore them.

I suppose size doesn't matter when it comes to people or companies doing bad things. It shouldn't.

But the sothebys guy did 10 months for some anti trust crime
And a bunch of bankers did far less if any for stupid but maybe not criminal stuff and didn't even lose their jobs.

I have no doubts about how much of the 20 years I'd do if I did some sort of postal fraud. (Likely most of it)

I'm not sure where fraud ranks on my mental "evil incarnate " list. Probably not in the top 50. It's bad, but there's lots of worse things.

Steve B

Steve, I agree. I would place card doctoring much higher on the list of evils than shill bidding, for example. The "evil incarnate" thing was tongue-in-cheek, directed at a certain poster's obsession with Bill and Doug.

[drc]

I ate a neighbor once, but have never bid an a Sotheby's auction. Should even out getting into Heaven-wise.

That's just a joke. I have bid in a Sotheby's auction.

[rdwyer]

I heard MSNBC is gonna change the name of Lockup RAW to Lockup Authentic.

[steve B]

Steve, I agree. I would place card doctoring much higher on the list of evils than shill bidding, for example. The "evil incarnate" thing was tongue-in-cheek, directed at a certain poster's obsession with Bill and Doug.

Well then, at least they didn't.....hmmm

Bill and Doug....:D somehow when it's first names only it sounds like two guys from Canada.

Now I'm hoping one of the photoshop guys picks up on it.

Steve B

[mark evans]

I believe that the Justice Dep't believes that everyone who is convicted in this case deserves jail time. And, they will probably get it.

As an aside, in the event convictions are obtained, I see this case as a vindication of Jeff (who I don't know) who, far moreso than anyone else, had the chutzpah to call out Mastro for these alleged activities months ago.

[calvindog]

Then you'd be willing to give me odds?

Yes.

[T206Collector]

yes.

10:1? 50:1?

[calvindog]

Paul, don't be a clown. For once.

[T206Collector]

Again, I'll take that action all day and night.

You said that you'd be willing to give me odds. So give me odds. Or are you too afraid to admit that there is a reasonable chance that the evil Mastro/Legendary folks don't spend any time in prison? Depending on the odds you said you were willing to give me, I may very well be game.


Paul, don't be a clown. For once.

I guess you were joking. I wasn't.

How much is that York Caramel Cobb you're selling worth?

[calvindog]

Paul, in 2005 I stated on this board that Mastro was committing rampant fraud in its business. I'm also a criminal lawyer by trade -- which means I may have some insight here as opposed to a clown talking out of his ass. If you'd like to discuss your proposition further please do so by email or PM.

[T206Collector]

Paul, in 2005 I stated on this board that Mastro was committing rampant fraud in its business.

I know.

I'm also a criminal lawyer by trade.

I know.

If you'd like to discuss your proposition further please do so by email or PM.

PM sent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

No entertainment value for the rest of us in a PM exchange.

[T206Collector]

No entertainment value on my end either. The best odds I was given was 5:1. I was looking for 25:1.

I think the defendants would be thrilled to know that even CalvinDog thinks they have nearly a 20% chance of not doing any time. The way he was talking, I thought he was closer to 5%. I guess we were closer on the likely outcome here than I thought.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In other words, you wanted odds where there was essentially no upside to Jeff, unless you were willing to risk a substantial sum yourself which I doubt. You can't really draw a conclusion from that, can you? I would hardly infer from someone's unwillingnesss to give me 25 to 1 odds that they weren't confident in their position.

[T206Collector]

Correct. I was trying to bargain for that Cobb, but there was no way that the dollars I would be willing to risk for that Cobb were going to make it worthwhile for Jeff. Jeff wanted more upside, but I was not going to bet that there was a more than 20% chance they would all walk free. Frankly, I think that 20% sounds about right.

I do disagree, however, about your point about the confidence of the position. If I'm confident in my position, I'll give you 25:1 odds or better. 5:1 is a real horse race.